Ubuntu Wiki

Open Week -- Desktop Q+A -- Rick Spencer -- Tue, May 4

EDT -5

(03:01:25 PM) rickspencer3: Hi!
(03:01:27 PM) akgraner: Rick you all can take it away!
(03:01:35 PM) rickspencer3: thanks akgraner
(03:01:50 PM) rickspencer3: I'm in Brussels and sitting with seb128 and didrocks atm
(03:02:19 PM) rickspencer3: so I guess this a QA session, where folks get to ask questions and we answer
(03:02:21 PM) rickspencer3: right
(03:02:21 PM) rickspencer3: ?
(03:02:26 PM) rickspencer3: so let's rock
(03:02:45 PM) rickspencer3: ask away
(03:03:31 PM) ClassBot: mbudde asked: What are you thoughts on windicators?
(03:03:37 PM) rickspencer3: hmmm
(03:03:55 PM) rickspencer3: well, I just learned about this idea yesterday
(03:04:02 PM) rickspencer3: but so far, I think it's a cool idea
(03:04:38 PM) rickspencer3: we'll have to get the Client Side Decorations work landed and fixed up right quick early in the cycle to ensure that windicators are solid
(03:04:48 PM) rickspencer3: I'd prefer a less whimsical name ;)
(03:04:57 PM) ClassBot: akgraner asked: I love the desktop on 10.04 are there many plans to change it in 10.10? and if so what can we expect?
(03:05:15 PM) rickspencer3: ewe, nice question
(03:05:15 PM) ChanServ has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Desktop Q+A - Instructors: seb128, didrocks_, rickspencer3 || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
(03:05:40 PM) mode (+v didrocks_) by ChanServ
(03:05:40 PM) rickspencer3: since UDS is coming next week, we've been thinking a lot about this, of course
(03:06:03 PM) rickspencer3: so there is some house keeping regarding gnome
(03:06:20 PM) rickspencer3: like catching up with some of the latest stuff that we didn't get, like evolution
(03:06:38 PM) rickspencer3: I'd like to take another look at the experience with Pictures, and see if we can simplify that
(03:06:49 PM) rickspencer3: and of course, continue the work on indicators
(03:07:18 PM) rickspencer3: and I'd like to see a lot of folks write some cool new apps too
(03:07:31 PM) ClassBot: shazzner asked: Usability is still a problem for Linux on the desktop how can the community work to improve this, or must we rely on Canonical?
(03:07:37 PM) rickspencer3: deep question
(03:08:02 PM) rickspencer3: so usability is a problem generally, not just on Linux, though this does not alter your central point
(03:08:13 PM) Jorjao is now known as Ursinha
(03:08:24 PM) rickspencer3: in terms of "relying on Canonical" I'm not sure what to say there
(03:08:38 PM) rickspencer3: I would think that folks would want their own apps to be easy to use, of course
(03:09:10 PM) rickspencer3: I would invite contributions to UDS planning that are related to usability
(03:10:01 PM) rickspencer3: I would love to see some community efforts around collecting real usability data
(03:10:11 PM) rickspencer3: not sure what else to say there
(03:10:16 PM) rickspencer3: sorry for the bad answer :/
(03:10:30 PM) ClassBot: shazzner asked: to clarify are most of the usability improvements going to be coming from Canonical or is there a path for the community to improve it?
(03:10:41 PM) rickspencer3: well, I guess it means what you mean by "community" here
(03:10:58 PM) rickspencer3: I would think that the community of people who write applications that run on the desktop have a huge role to play
(03:11:22 PM) rickspencer3: I would think that the community of folks who contribute to the ayatana discussion feel those discussions in and of themselves are contributions
(03:11:38 PM) rickspencer3: of course feedback on blueprints and on development versions are contributions
(03:11:56 PM) rickspencer3: things like the new manual project are great contributions
(03:12:08 PM) rickspencer3: and then folks come up with some really innovative things that make things easier
(03:12:21 PM) rickspencer3: like Ground Control, etc...
(03:12:34 PM) ClassBot: akgraner asked: I recently read on the ayatana mailing list that they system tray was going away in 11.04 - are you move the desktop in the direction of gnome shell?
(03:12:58 PM) rickspencer3: by system tray, I guess this is the "notification area"?
(03:13:21 PM) rickspencer3: so this is not going away, so much as being replaced but what we now call "indicators"
(03:13:42 PM) rickspencer3: which are essentially strictly designed menus that provide similar functionality to indicators in a consistent manner
(03:14:33 PM) rickspencer3: I guess the fact that gnome-shell is interested in the same or similar concepts is good convergent validity that we are on a good path
(03:14:55 PM) ClassBot: x-Na asked: Remote desktop is a nice feature, but at it's current state it's not working if there are more than one user, to clarify: if another user logs in, you can't connect to your remote desktop.
(03:15:13 PM) rickspencer3: is there a question there? I'd answer if you can ask a question
(03:15:36 PM) ClassBot: sebsebseb asked: As an experienced Ubuntu user since the second release in 2005, with Ubuntu also not being my first distro, I have a mixture of positive and negative thoughts, when it comes to the non upstream Gnome editing that started happening with 9.04.   You guys seem to be the developers of Ubuntu, and so do you really think changing Gnome 2 a lot, whilst sort of forking it, is a good thing? Especially with Gnome 3 is just round the
(03:15:41 PM) rickspencer3: ah
(03:15:53 PM) rickspencer3: so you are asking about our relationship with upstream gnome?
(03:16:05 PM) rickspencer3: well, I still consider Ubuntu to be a gnome-based distro
(03:16:18 PM) rickspencer3: and I don't think there is really a "fork" at all
(03:16:54 PM) rickspencer3: but yes, we do focus on the user experience in Ubuntu, and hope that if upstream finds our work useful, they will adopt it as appropriate
(03:17:13 PM) akgraner: rickspencer3, here is the end of his question - corner, which I expect will also get edited by Ubuntu developers, but I hope only in a properly good way.
(03:17:27 PM) rickspencer3: well, it's free software
(03:17:37 PM) rickspencer3: so I guess there is no unproper way
(03:17:55 PM) rickspencer3: but I think the question is about maintaining the vitality of gnome?
(03:18:25 PM) rickspencer3: suffice to say, we have a good relationship with gnome foundation, and contribute to gnome in many ways
(03:18:49 PM) rickspencer3: so I think that Ubuntu spreads gnome, and that's good for gnome
(03:18:59 PM) ClassBot: bruce89 asked: what is the actual difference between GtkStatusIcon and libindicate?
(03:19:02 PM) rickspencer3: ok
(03:19:18 PM) rickspencer3: so on a technical level, I can't really list the details here
(03:19:26 PM) rickspencer3: but for users, there are significant differences
(03:19:44 PM) rickspencer3: a status icon is just an icon that can have menus, click behaviors, whatever you want
(03:19:53 PM) rickspencer3: or nothing it can just be an icon
(03:20:09 PM) rickspencer3: they also each live in their own individual universe
(03:20:30 PM) rickspencer3: in the sense that they don't share any navigation, etc...
(03:20:36 PM) rickspencer3: so Indicators are different
(03:20:38 PM) rickspencer3: they are:
(03:20:44 PM) rickspencer3: 1. *only* menus
(03:20:53 PM) rickspencer3: 2. never have right click menus
(03:21:06 PM) rickspencer3: 3. never have "on click" behaviors
(03:21:23 PM) rickspencer3: in this way, they all work in a very consistent manner, there are no unexpected behaviors
(03:21:27 PM) rickspencer3: also ...
(03:21:37 PM) rickspencer3: 4. they share a navigation structure like they are all in one menu
(03:21:51 PM) rickspencer3: so in this way you can easily navigate them with the keyboard and such
(03:22:17 PM) rickspencer3: there are some differences in how they are implemented as well, for developers they look a little different
(03:22:26 PM) ClassBot: x-Na asked: Any plans to improve Remote Desktop?
(03:22:31 PM) rickspencer3: not explicitly atm
(03:23:01 PM) rickspencer3: if this is important to you, you should see if you can register a blueprint and get some folks together to address your goals there
(03:23:14 PM) ClassBot: bruce89 asked: do you think upstream complaints about copyright assignment are reasonable?
(03:23:19 PM) rickspencer3: oooh
(03:23:21 PM) rickspencer3: a little hard ball
(03:23:23 PM) rickspencer3: ;)
(03:23:25 PM) rickspencer3: j/k
(03:23:35 PM) rickspencer3: so, not sure what these "upstream complaints" are specifically
(03:23:59 PM) rickspencer3: however, I think that the gnome policy regarding copyright assignment works ok with Canonical
(03:24:29 PM) rickspencer3: so, I think everyone who has expressed an opinion has done so with only good intentions, so of course, they are reasonable
(03:24:41 PM) rickspencer3: but I think the resolution is fine
(03:24:55 PM) rickspencer3: note that copyright assignment policies are not uncommon for companies to have
(03:25:14 PM) ClassBot: bruce89 asked: couldn't API be added to GTK+ to make indicators instead of having a seperate library?
(03:25:23 PM) rickspencer3: well .. I am not an expert here
(03:26:18 PM) rickspencer3: but after we have a stable API and the issues are shaked out, I would expect that if upstream thought indicators were useful
(03:26:35 PM) rickspencer3: we would certainly work with the GTK+ folks to put them there if that's what they wanted
(03:26:55 PM) rickspencer3: but once are in GTK+ developers have a right to expect them to stay consistent for a long time
(03:27:00 PM) rickspencer3: they are not ready for that yet
(03:27:09 PM) ClassBot: bruce89 asked: Do you support the work on symbolic icons?
(03:27:24 PM) rickspencer3: If I knew what you referring to I would answer :/
(03:27:41 PM) ClassBot: sebsebseb asked: There are or were some remours that Ubuntu 10.10 will use Gnome 3 as the default desktop. Am I correct to belive that probably 11.04 will, because of how upstream have delayed Gnome 3 from April to September, and as a result it's a bit early for Ubuntu to have it as the default desktop as a resul it's a bit early for Ubuntu to have as the default desktop in 10.10, but that it should be optioanl from the repos?
(03:27:54 PM) rickspencer3: will be talking about Gnome 3 at UDS
(03:28:07 PM) rickspencer3: we always discuss what to adopt from latest gnome in the next Ubuntu
(03:28:43 PM) rickspencer3: gnome 3 includes many many things, but I suspect you are referring more specifically to gnome-shell
(03:29:10 PM) rickspencer3: if so, I can say that we will continue to deliver gnome-shell to users in Universe, as we have since early in 9.10
(03:29:30 PM) rickspencer3: but I don't expect it to be ready for any distro to ship be default once month after their current target release date
(03:29:43 PM) rickspencer3: but that's just my opinion, we will discuss next week, I suspect
(03:30:18 PM) ClassBot: shazzner asked: I really like Quickly as a rapid development app do you see this as a way for new developers to get into development for ubuntu?
(03:30:34 PM) rickspencer3: YES!
(03:30:37 PM) rickspencer3: and also
(03:30:39 PM) rickspencer3: yes yes yes yes
(03:30:43 PM) didrocks_: yes too ? ;)
(03:30:53 PM) rickspencer3: not just Ubuntu, but free software in general
(03:31:13 PM) rickspencer3: I hope that it provide a "toe hold" after which people can see how incredibly rewarding writing FLOSS apps are
(03:31:25 PM) rickspencer3: and then maybe branch out based on their interests
(03:31:46 PM) rickspencer3: I also kind of always picutred Quickly being adopted by other distros or upstream if it ever becomes so useful
(03:31:52 PM) rickspencer3: ALSO
(03:32:00 PM) rickspencer3: I think experienced developers should find it useful
(03:32:13 PM) rickspencer3: just because you are experienced doesn't mean that you want packaging to be hard ;)
(03:32:42 PM) ClassBot: sebsebseb asked: Uh typeo's let's edit that: There are or were some  remours that Ubuntu 10.10 will use Gnome 3 as the default desktop.  Am I correct to belive that probably 11.04 will, because of how upstream have delayed Gnome 3 from April to September, and so as a result it's a bit early for Ubuntu to have it as the default desktop in the 10.10 release, but that it will be optional from the repo's?
(03:32:52 PM) rickspencer3: ok, so the question was about 11.04, sorry I didn't grock that
(03:33:04 PM) rickspencer3: so for 11.04, I can honestly, I don;t know
(03:33:17 PM) rickspencer3: it's a big change, we'll have to see what is the right thing at the time
(03:33:32 PM) rickspencer3: sorry to not be definitive, but I just can't say what will be the right thing then
(03:33:48 PM) ClassBot: aquarius asked: now that we have video editing and so on, are there any areas that you think should be covered by applications in the default Ubuntu install set but aren't because we don't have a good app in those areas yet?
(03:34:01 PM) rickspencer3: tbh, I don't have that kind of imagination
(03:34:25 PM) rickspencer3: well, I think that developers tools is an area to which we need to channel a lot of innovation
(03:34:44 PM) rickspencer3: I think we should work together to create a really tight developer story, end to end
(03:34:54 PM) rickspencer3: but I'm not sure that would be a default type thing
(03:35:07 PM) rickspencer3: I guess, I don't think Canonical is going to write the next killer app
(03:35:26 PM) rickspencer3: but I think the Ubuntu community may well create the tools that allow some creative person to do so
(03:35:41 PM) ClassBot: akgraner asked: rickspencer3 in the time you have been working on the desktop team  - what would you or your team say is the most interesting/best feature on the Ubuntu Desktop compared to other distributions.
(03:36:02 PM) rickspencer3: well, 9.04 was the first release for which I was there for the whole thing, end to end
(03:36:22 PM) rickspencer3: since then, we've added all the sweet stuff that the Dx team contributed
(03:36:33 PM) rickspencer3: notify-osd, indicators, etc...
(03:36:55 PM) rickspencer3: there's the stuff the OLS team contributed, like file-sync, and desktop-couch, and of course the music store
(03:37:29 PM) rickspencer3: and then there are the sweet apps that community members wrote, like Gwibber
(03:37:49 PM) rickspencer3: so these are "additive" things, that some distros have adopted, and some haven't
(03:38:06 PM) rickspencer3: however, I think it's what Ubuntu *doesn't* do as much as what Ubuntu does do that makes it special
(03:38:12 PM) rickspencer3: we don't deliver duplicate apps
(03:38:36 PM) rickspencer3: we don't make it confusing to install with millions of options, etc...
(03:39:04 PM) rickspencer3: holding back apps that are not appropriate for typical daily usage
(03:39:06 PM) rickspencer3: stuff like this
(03:39:21 PM) rickspencer3: out of all these new things, I think the sleeper hit, is desktop-couch
(03:39:31 PM) rickspencer3: as an app developer, this is going to be the most useful thing
(03:40:10 PM) rickspencer3: handling persistence for application developers in a reliable consistent manner I suspect will convert into lots of applications that end users will appreciate
(03:40:30 PM) rickspencer3: because of the speedy devleopment time, syncing, and other desktop-couchy features
(03:40:54 PM) rickspencer3: so, there are no more questions in queue
(03:41:04 PM) rickspencer3: I'll gladly hang out, but if anyone has follow up questions
(03:41:12 PM) rickspencer3: or if I didn't really answer anyone, feel free to ask again
(03:41:52 PM) ClassBot: shazzner asked: how would one go about contributing to Quickly-widgets?
(03:42:02 PM) rickspencer3: you just made my night
(03:42:07 PM) rickspencer3: so this is pretty informal now
(03:42:21 PM) rickspencer3: if you have code to contribute, just propose a merge or whatever, and we'll talk
(03:42:34 PM) rickspencer3: I would love to see more widgets
(03:42:52 PM) rickspencer3: if you have feature requests, widgets you'd like to see, you can log a bug or just find me on freenode
(03:43:00 PM) rickspencer3: the project on launchpad is called quidgets
(03:43:09 PM) rickspencer3: http://launchpad.net.quidgets
(03:43:23 PM) rickspencer3: over the weekend a wrote a webcam quidget, and a GoogleMap quidget!
(03:43:30 PM) ClassBot: akgraner asked: did you keep the buttons on the left or move them back to the the right?
(03:43:31 PM) rickspencer3: lo
(03:43:33 PM) rickspencer3: l
(03:43:37 PM) rickspencer3: totally kept them on the left
(03:43:56 PM) rickspencer3: I think they work totally fine there, and am still a bit mystified by the whole reaction to the move
(03:44:25 PM) rickspencer3: I have a non-techy friend who needed a computer, so I set up an old netbook for her
(03:44:39 PM) rickspencer3: and when she was poking around at UNE, she didn't even mention the buttons
(03:44:50 PM) rickspencer3: as a windows user, she was not bothered in the list
(03:45:03 PM) rickspencer3: (though there were some other things that were a bit of a bother for her)
(03:45:14 PM) ClassBot: mhall119|lernid asked: I asked yesterday in the Gwibber session, but is there a Quickly widget for posting through Gwibber?
(03:45:23 PM) rickspencer3: no, but there is a widget in Gwibber for this
(03:45:31 PM) rickspencer3: there is some code in photobomb that shows how to do this
(03:45:33 PM) rickspencer3: it's pretty easy
(03:45:40 PM) rickspencer3: hold on
(03:46:19 PM) rickspencer3: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~rick-rickspencer3/+junk/photobomb
(03:46:31 PM) rickspencer3: there's the branch, let me know if you can't find the code, I'll pull it out for yo
(03:46:44 PM) ClassBot: sebsebseb asked: Some people want Chromium to be the default browser in Ubuntu.  Since I am rather  loyal to Firefox and it's a good browser,  I hope this does not happen any time soon. (Plus on the top right in Chromium/Chrome next to the URL bar, how the menu is done and such, that really does remind me of the horrible Internet Explorer 7 and Internet Explorer 8  browsers.)  I assume I am correct to believe that Firefox will remain the
(03:46:48 PM) akgraner: default browser in the desktop version for many releases to  come?  However maybe the netbook version will use Chromium instead not that far from now, since the ARM version or whatever  does at the moment, since apparently it's more light weight than Firefox.
(03:46:53 PM) rickspencer3: you are not right to assume this
(03:46:57 PM) rickspencer3: !
(03:47:10 PM) rickspencer3: please look at the blueprints and comment
(03:47:34 PM) rickspencer3: we basically plan to facilitate a community decision about the default browser, and go with that
(03:47:52 PM) rickspencer3: however, whatever we choose, you will always be free to use the browser that you prefer
(03:47:57 PM) rickspencer3: it's just a matter of defaults
(03:48:11 PM) rickspencer3: didrocks_ is looking for the links to the right blueprints
(03:48:18 PM) rickspencer3: he'll paste them in in a moment
(03:48:25 PM) ClassBot: mbudde asked: Is Quidgets stable? Are you planning to backport quidgets to older releases?
(03:48:29 PM) rickspencer3: no and no
(03:48:51 PM) rickspencer3: not stable because they are early and folks who use them make lots of feature requests
(03:49:02 PM) rickspencer3: they are also not table because I am a sucky developer ;)
(03:49:31 PM) rickspencer3: not planning to backport just because I have a very long list of todo items, but I would be happy to see the code go to previous releases, other distros, etc...
(03:49:51 PM) rickspencer3: basically, if someone finds it useful, I hope they feel free to make what they can of the code
(03:50:09 PM) ClassBot: sebsebseb asked: If to many of the default apps and such are removed from Ubuntu, then basically in a way the proper Ubuntu expereince has been removed?
(03:50:14 PM) rickspencer3: hmmm
(03:50:31 PM) rickspencer3: well, Ubuntu is supposed to deliver the best that the open source eco-system has to offer
(03:50:39 PM) rickspencer3: so change is a constant in Ubuntu
(03:50:51 PM) rickspencer3: I hope that as the FLOSS software in general improves
(03:50:58 PM) rickspencer3: that Ubuntu will improve along with it
(03:51:03 PM) rickspencer3: but that will require some change, yes
(03:51:14 PM) rickspencer3: I hope that answers the question
(03:51:24 PM) ClassBot: sebsebseb asked: I meant the users doing it, not the version of the distro
(03:51:31 PM) rickspencer3: so didn't answer the question ;)
(03:51:59 PM) rickspencer3: yeah, basically if a typical users is replacing a default application, that application was probably not a great choice as the default
(03:52:16 PM) rickspencer3: but our goal is to deliver a system that is useful and usable with the defaults
(03:52:26 PM) rickspencer3: deliverable on a cheap CDR image
(03:52:53 PM) rickspencer3: however, users must be free to modify those defaults as works for them
(03:53:19 PM) rickspencer3: after all, deliver Free software is our primary motivator that gets us up in the morning
(03:53:20 PM) didrocks_: (https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-maverick-une-app-selection should be it for previous discussion about UNE default app, inputs are more than welcome :))
(03:53:30 PM) ClassBot: Chopsticks asked: I am running the netbook version, is there a way I can add applications to my favorites if it's not in the panel on the left?
(03:53:38 PM) rickspencer3: I run UNE on my netbook too
(03:53:41 PM) rickspencer3: I love it
(03:54:11 PM) rickspencer3: to do add to your favorites, when you find a favorite, right click on it, and you can add it to favorites from there
(03:54:22 PM) rickspencer3: you can remove from favorites in a similar manner
(03:54:37 PM) rickspencer3: long live UNE!
(03:54:41 PM) didrocks_: \o/
(03:54:52 PM) rickspencer3: did that answer the question?
(03:55:25 PM) ClassBot: sebsebseb asked: Personally it didn't bother me much since I could just move the buttons back to the right with Gconf editor or use another theme.  However why were the buttons moved to the left in 10.04, before this feature on the right 10.10 is meant to have, has even been created?
(03:55:44 PM) rickspencer3: I don't think they were totally related
(03:56:00 PM) rickspencer3: I think, at the end of the day, our sabdfl just thought they were better on the left
(03:56:06 PM) rickspencer3: and after all, he's the sabdfl
(03:56:51 PM) rickspencer3: I know he thought moving them would open up room for innovation, but I don't know when he started to think of the windicator idea
(03:56:56 PM) rickspencer3: it was a surprise to me as well
(03:57:10 PM) ClassBot: sebsebseb asked: What wasn't totally related?  Theme and button placement?
(03:57:15 PM) rickspencer3: maybe I misunderstood
(03:57:23 PM) rickspencer3: I thought you were referring to indicators
(03:57:24 PM) rickspencer3: sorry
(03:57:33 PM) ClassBot: Chopsticks asked: In the netbook version is there a way to adjust the size of the icons?
(03:57:37 PM) rickspencer3: not that I know of
(03:57:47 PM) rickspencer3: not without hacking the source, anyway ;)
(03:58:00 PM) rickspencer3: (which of course you are free to do if so motivated)
(03:58:21 PM) rickspencer3: so only two minutes left
(03:58:41 PM) rickspencer3: before I check for more questions, I should let folks here know that I try to be very accessible
(03:58:59 PM) rickspencer3: I usually take questions from folks who ping me on IRC
(03:59:14 PM) rickspencer3: and like to talk to users in that kind of setting
(03:59:17 PM) rickspencer3: so feel free!
(03:59:26 PM) ClassBot: aquarius asked: machines increasingly don't have CD drives. What's the next way to distribute Ubuntu as easily as ShipIt
(03:59:28 PM) rickspencer3: easy
(03:59:35 PM) rickspencer3: preinstalled by OEMs!
(03:59:38 PM) rickspencer3: ftw!
(03:59:54 PM) rickspencer3: shoot's he scores, freedom for everyone
(03:59:57 PM) rickspencer3: ;)
(04:00:24 PM) rickspencer3: though I suppose usb keys will still be useful
(04:01:15 PM) rickspencer3: thank you akgraner
(04:01:21 PM) rickspencer3: good night from Brussels