1 [15:01] <jcastro> (... having some problems with a missing person stand by!)
2 [15:01] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
3 [15:04] <andrejz> hello!
4 [15:05] <jcastro> Ok, andrejz is going to step in and help us out
5 [15:05] <andrejz> my name is andrejz and i am a slovenain launchpad group translation coordinator
6 [15:05] <jcastro> we kind of put him on the spot so he's volunteered to take over, thanks andrejz!
7 [15:05] <andrejz> i have been just told dpm is not here so i haven't really prepared
8 [15:05] <andrejz> so if things seem a bit strange, just ask me and i will try to answer them as best as i can
9 [15:07] <andrejz> QUESTION: can you explain how a new contributor finds out what and how to translate Ubuntu?
10 [15:08] <andrejz> Ubuntu (and many other projects) are being translated through a web interface found on www.launchpad.net
11 [15:08] <andrejz> So the first thing you need to do is get an account there
12 [15:08] <andrejz> Then it's good to get in contact with your translation team - a list can be found here
13 [15:08] <andrejz> https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
14 [15:09] <andrejz> Different groups have different workflows (do things in a different way) according to the number of active members and they find suits them best
15 [15:10] <andrejz> So i guess it's best to ask the team leader where is the best area to contribute
16 [15:10] <andrejz> QUESTION: Do different translation teams work in different ways? Are there different workflows and "rules"?
17 [15:10] <andrejz> Yes they do
18 [15:11] <TLE> andrejz: just let me know when you are ready for new questions
19 [15:11] <andrejz> ok
20 [15:11] <andrejz> Maybe the people who asked them can say whether they were happy with the reply
21 [15:11] <andrejz> So back to the question..
22 [15:12] <andrejz> for example some teams only translate the strings, while others thorouglhy review them to ensure better quality. Of course this depends on how strong the team is
23 [15:12] <andrejz> Additionally a lot of translations get imported from upstream (for ubuntu two most important are gnome and debian)
24 [15:13] <andrejz> in some languages translation groups in upstream exist, in others they don't
25 [15:14] <andrejz> this can affect how the teams are going to cope with the workload. That's why it's best to get in contact with the team leader who is probably aware of what needs the most attention
26 [15:14] <andrejz> next question please
27 [15:14] <TLE> bilalakhtar> QUESTION: Translation strings in Ubuntu keep changing very frequently early in the cycle. Hence, would you recommend new translators to work only after UI Freeze?
28 [15:15] <andrejz> That's a double edged sword. My opinion it's good to translate even before UI freeze
29 [15:15] <andrejz> the level of changes depends on the packages
30 [15:16] <TLE> You mind if I elaborate
31 [15:16] <andrejz> for example if we take evolution - it's a really stable program, so one can translate it and be certain only a few strings will change on the other hand unity has been developed during this cycle, so strings changed a lot
32 [15:17] <andrejz> so my advice is: do translate, but the projects for which the strings seem more "stable". Again translator coordinator should have a good grasp of which projects should be translated
33 [15:17] <andrejz> TLE, please elaborate
34 [15:17] <TLE> It can also depend a lot on the resources of your team
35 [15:17] <TLE> To translate early you accept that some of your work may be lost because the strings change
36 [15:18] <TLE> but you also help with development by spotting errors in the strings, at least if you report them as bugs
37 [15:18] <TLE> this is very helpful for developers
38 [15:19] <TLE> but if you are a very small team you may not have reources to spend on that
39 [15:19] <TLE> Next question
40 [15:19] <TLE> dholbach> QUESTION: What is upstream? How can one work together with upstream?
41 [15:19] <andrejz> Upstream are the projects from which ubuntu is built
42 [15:20] <andrejz> There are a lot of them, but the most important are Gnome, KDE and Debian
43 [15:20] <andrejz> Some of these projects (including the ones i mentioned below) also have their translation projects
44 [15:21] <andrejz> so one can translate packages within Gnome, KDE, Debian, etc ..
45 [15:21] <andrejz> Now again, it depends from team to team
46 [15:21] <andrejz> For big languages (like spanish for example) there is a gnome translation team, debian translation team, etc..
47 [15:21] <andrejz> for some smaller there is no upstream translation team
48 [15:22] <andrejz> you should visit sites of these projects to check whether they exist
49 [15:22] <andrejz> translations are automatically imported into launchpad, after the release of upstream packages
50 [15:23] <andrejz> so for example, translation will be imported in gnome the next time when gnome 2.32.1 is released
51 [15:23] <andrejz> that's why there is usually some lag between the time when translations are translated in upstream and until they appear in launchpad
52 [15:23] <andrejz> translations are currently not exported out of launchpad back to upstream
53 [15:24] <andrejz> so by working together with upstream i am primarily referring to : making sure that you don't translated the same packages (duplication of work)
54 [15:24] <andrejz> if you fix a bug in launchpad send notify the upstream, so they can fix it as well
55 [15:25] <andrejz> it's also good if you maintain some vocabulary standards, etc..
56 [15:25] <andrejz> again it depends on the specific teams (whether they exist and how strong in manpower they are)
57 [15:25] <andrejz> next question
58 [15:26] <TLE> Kottravai> QUESTION: Are there any specific rules to follow while translating?
59 [15:26] <andrejz> You mean technical or grammar rules ?
60 [15:27] <TLE> andrejz: lets take the next one
61 [15:27] <andrejz> Again it depends from team to team. For example in some teams it's required one enters the name of the package they intend to translate on a wiki
62 [15:27] <andrejz> ok, sure TLE
63 [15:27] <TLE> while he elaborate
64 [15:27] <TLE> genupulas> QUESTION: what is meant by UI freeze
65 [15:27] <TLE> maybe expand to stings freeze as well
66 [15:28] <andrejz> UI freeze means USer interface freeze. This means UI won't change anymore, so the translation strings are not going to change anymore. So UI freeze= string freeze
67 [15:29] <andrejz> This in theory means that the strings, which you translate won't be changed (and hence lost) before release of next ubuntu version
68 [15:29] <andrejz> usually this is about 1 month before the final release, actual date can be found in the release schedule
69 [15:29] <andrejz> But there can always be some string freeze exceptions if there is a good reasons and translators agree with it
70 [15:30] <andrejz> so it's good to be on ubuntu-translators mailing list in order to stay up to date with last minute strings changes
71 [15:30] <andrejz> next question please
72 [15:30] <TLE> we'll go back to Kottravai question
73 [15:30] <TLE> Kottravai> I'm asking about any rules that are unique to ubuntu - terminology you should not use, etc.
74 [15:31] <andrejz> No, there is no such thing. Of course different languages have different rules about foreign words, comas, voacabulary, etc. Some teams are more strict and others more loose. But there is nothing unique to ubuntu
75 [15:32] <andrejz> next question
76 [15:32] <TLE> dholbach> QUESTION: Do you know of LoCo teams that come together locally to translate together? This way they could also show new contributors how to do it.
77 [15:32] <andrejz> well, we do :)
78 [15:33] <andrejz> we had this translations evenings this cycle, where people gathered (online) and translated /reviewed strings together. We really did a lot of work, and it's much easier to get motivated once you see others are motivated as well
79 [15:34] <andrejz> I believe it's better if events for new contributors are seperate, because otherwise they suddenly appear in translation frenzy and they might not be able to get their questions answered as detailed as they would like
80 [15:35] <andrejz> we also did that but earlier in this cycle (in august). In total we managed to get 3 regular new contributors, which is significant for a team of our size
81 [15:35] <andrejz> I am sure some of the other teams do similar things as well
82 [15:35] <andrejz> next question
83 [15:35] <TLE> QUESTION: How do I find a translating team for my language?
84 [15:35] <andrejz> https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
85 [15:36] <andrejz> next question
86 [15:36] <TLE> QUESTION: Are translations re-done every cycle? If not completely, how much % of it can be re-used?
87 [15:36] <andrejz> If the strings remain the same, then no additional work needs to be done
88 [15:37] <andrejz> But a number of strings changes during a release cycle, either to improve their clarity or strings get added, because the program gets more functions.
89 [15:37] <andrejz> these need to be translated
90 [15:38] <andrejz> with the new message translation sharing it is now possible to translate a string in 10.10 and the string is then automatically translated in all previous supported ubuntu versions (if the string exist there)
91 [15:38] <andrejz> so even if you are translating 10.10 you are still helping out with 10.04
92 [15:39] <andrejz> next and final question please, because i need to go (i jumped in at the last moment, so i couldn't allocate the time, sorry)
93 [15:39] <TLE> I can share a few approximate numbers
94 [15:39] <TLE> before the next question
95 [15:39] <andrejz> ok
96 [15:39] <TLE> The Gnome desktop which is a group of modules that are quite central to Ubuntu
97 [15:40] <TLE> it consist of roughly 40000-45000 string
98 [15:40] <TLE> and of those ~10 - 15% have to be translated or updated in each 6 month cycle
99 [15:40] <TLE> very roughly
100 [15:40] <TLE> ;)
101 [15:40] <TLE> dholbach> QUESTION: What is the most difficult thing for a new translator? What should new translators be particular careful about?
102 [15:41] <andrejz> In my experience it's the language. because we usually talk differently than we translate, so one needs to get accustomed to that.
103 [15:42] <andrejz> also most translators are "power users" so they are quite familiar with english vocabulary and hence they tend to use englishisms a lot
104 [15:43] <andrejz> but if you are active and have a good mentor (someone who reviews your strings and gives you advice) you can improve to a quality translator in a month or so it's not that hard. one just needs to be persistent
105 [15:44] <andrejz> i need to leave, hope i answered your questions ok
106 [15:44] <TLE> thank you very much andrejz
107 [15:44] <TLE> I will answer the last question on my list
108 [15:44] <andrejz> if you have any additional questions you can always post on ubuntu-translators mailing list or on IRC
109 [15:44] <andrejz> regards
110 [15:44] <TLE> and then talk a little but quality
111 [15:45] <TLE> andrejz: have fun
112 [15:45] <TLE> Kottravai> QUESTION:What exactly are "Big" languages?
113 === Rodemires is now known as Rodemire
114 [15:45] <TLE> Big languages are the ones spoken by lots of people
115 [15:46] <TLE> or rather langueges used to a large extend by computer userss
116 [15:46] <TLE> so something like spanish, english, chinese and so on
117 [15:46] <TLE> dholbach> QUESTION: Are there strings that are harder to translate than others? What about things like plurals or strings that include some kind of "code"? How can I test that I didn't break stuff when I translated?
118 [15:47] <TLE> Yes there are definitely strings that are harder than others
119 [15:47] <TLE> the first class of hard strings are single word ones e.g. "Load"
120 [15:48] <TLE> because english is quite ambigous, there is no way to know whether it refers to the noun or the verb
121 [15:48] <TLE> here you have to hope that the developers though of it and included a string that explains it
122 [15:48] <TLE> and if not you need to make a bugreport, because if you have that problem, then most likely other translators will to
123 [15:49] <TLE> you languaes team can help you determine the meaning or report a bug
124 [15:49] <TLE> second is something like strings with markup
125 [15:49] <TLE> "<b>Hallo world</b>"
126 [15:50] <TLE> we are seing fewer and fewer if such string, but for these it is important to not change the markup, i.e. the stuff between < .. >
127 [15:50] <TLE> lastly there is something like plural strings
128 [15:51] <ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
129 [15:51] <TLE> e.g. if you want a string that says "You have ??? unsaved changes"
130 [15:51] <TLE> and you want ??? to be any number
131 [15:51] <TLE> or I should say if developers want ;)
132 [15:52] <TLE> then they will so called plural strings, they have one version for each plural state in english and you then need to make one translation for each plural state in your language
133 [15:53] <TLE> but this a quite an advanced topic and is much easier to grasp with an example, so ask you team or other translators when you run into it
134 [15:53] <TLE> I don't see any more questions, so lastly I will mention just a few quick words about quality
135 [15:54] <TLE> Strings that we translate are often very visible
136 [15:54] <TLE> therefore it is desireable to aim for as high quality in out translations as possible
137 [15:54] <TLE> However quality are a few different things
138 [15:55] <TLE> The obvious ones are grammar and spelling
139 [15:55] <TLE> take whatever help you can get and need to get it right, as many other people will see the strings you write
140 [15:55] <ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
141 [15:56] <TLE> this is not meant to discourage anyone, you do not need to be a grammar superhero, just as throrough as you can be
142 [15:57] <TLE> another thing concerning quality is the quality of the stuff that you are writing in your own language
143 [15:57] <TLE> in my case Danish
144 [15:57] <TLE> When you are transating you have the english string riiiiight next to the one you are writing
145 === Fifthmarch is now known as anneboleyn
146 [15:58] <TLE> which makes it very easy to fall accidentally adopt the english sentence structure
147 [15:58] <TLE> which might not be the most elegant in your own language
148 [15:59] <TLE> so try and let go of the actual english sentence, focus on its contents and the formulate it in your own language
149 [15:59] <TLE> Well I could talk about translaion quality all day
150 [15:59] <TLE> but I think that was the last we had time for
151 [16:00] <TLE> if you have any more questions please drop by #ubuntu-translators and ask them there