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Ubuntu Open Week - REVU Q+A - Siegfried Gevatter - Fri, Nov 7th, 2008

(11:59:56 AM) RainCT: so, who's all here for the REVU session?
(12:00:23 PM) knome: hiya RainCT
(12:01:34 PM) RainCT: well, I'll suppose most people are shy but will talk later ;)
(12:01:55 PM) Odd-rationale left the room ("WeeChat 0.2.6").
(12:01:59 PM) RainCT: So, hi all. My name's Siegfried Gevatter. I'm a MOTU and the current REVU Coordinator (and Developer).
(12:02:00 PM) gta47b: RainCT: Yes!
(12:02:19 PM) RainCT: For those of you who are just hanging around and don't know what REVU (pronounced like "review") is, it is the web application that we use at Ubuntu to review new packages from other people for inclusion into Ubuntu.
(12:02:28 PM) RainCT: So, people can just upload their packages there and eventually Ubuntu Developers will look at them and suggest improvements. The uploader should then submit new revisions doing the requested changes, and once a Developer things that the package candidate is good enough to enter universe/multiverse, he/she will "advocate it".
(12:02:39 PM) RainCT: *thinks
(12:02:55 PM) RainCT: Once a package has two advocates (and no negative comments for the last revision) the package will enter Ubuntu.
(12:03:11 PM) RainCT: Ah, REVU can be found at: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com
(12:03:18 PM) RainCT: If you look at REVU's start page, you'll see that there are currently a lot of packages pending review. This is because there are way more people submitting new packages than developers reviewing them, but also because the last cycle wasn't very good for REVU and packages have accumulated there.
(12:03:38 PM) RainCT: We hope that this will improve this cycle, though (and are actively thinking of new strategies to make REVU work more efficient). So, if you have some package there waiting for review please be patient :).
(12:04:01 PM) RainCT: By the way, today is "REVU Day" (a day on which many developers will give special importance to package reviewing), so if you have a package on REVU don't hesitate to join #ubuntu-motu and ask for someone to review it (and wait for a while there; it may take time for people to answer).
(12:04:14 PM) RainCT: If you are wondering when the next REVU Day will be, there's going to be one every Friday in the coming months. Note that there's also a big announcement on the top-left corner of all REVU pages announcing when the next one will be (or if there's currently one running, like now).
(12:05:00 PM) RainCT: Anyway, let's start with the Q&A. I hope for this to be an open and participative session, so let me hear your questions, and feel free to speak here instead of in -chat :).
(12:05:37 PM) woody86: How could we (as normal non-motu) help out reviewing the packages in REVU?
(12:05:45 PM) homy1: So if I would like a program to be included in official ubuntu universe, I'll start out with uploading it to REVU?
(12:06:48 PM) RainCT: homy1: If you feel comfortable enough writting a package from scratch, yes. But first ensure that there's no one already working on it, neither on Ubuntu nor on Debian.
(12:07:19 PM) RainCT: You can find packages which are being worked on at Debian here: http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/
(12:07:39 PM) homy1: well, I'm sure it isn't worked on in debian....
(12:09:06 PM) RainCT: (For normal users who want to request a package but don't want to package it, you can file a needs-packaging bug as described on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages)
(12:09:23 PM) RainCT: and for those who want to create on, there's information on it on the same page :)
(12:09:50 PM) homy1: Will every package be accepted for universe automatically if it is
(12:10:04 PM) homy1: * in a correct package format (ie. lintian checks etc ok)
(12:10:15 PM) homy1: * and qualifies for the licenses of universe?
(12:10:54 PM) RainCT: homy1: (on your previous comment) Then it would be great if you work on it, but note that it can be a bit difficult to get it right if you haven't done any packaging before, so don't get easily frustrated :)
(12:11:40 PM) RainCT: It's usually recommended that new contributors start by fixing bugs, working on syncs/merges, etc., but if you would like to start creating a package from scratch rather than that's perfectly fine, too
(12:11:55 PM) RainCT: And no, no packages will be accepted "automatically".
(12:12:35 PM) RainCT: As I said, they will be reviewed by MOTUs or Core Developers, and at least two of them have to be happy with the package quality
(12:13:37 PM) RainCT: so it will be accepted if a) the licensing is correct, and b) you do everything necessary to get the package into good shape
(12:14:13 PM) RainCT: (note that packages can be rejected if they are not considered worthwile for inclusion into Ubuntu, but this doesn't happen usually)
(12:14:23 PM) RainCT: (in fact, I think I've never seen this :))
(12:16:06 PM) RainCT: Ah, if you decide to create a package then it's also important that you are happy to maintain it afterwards. There are currently many packages in Ubuntu with no one interested to look after them, so please do not "package and leave" :)
(12:16:31 PM) RainCT: did this solve your question?
(12:16:42 PM) homy1: what happens with those orphaned packages? Are they eventually deleted?
(12:17:28 PM) RainCT: Usually not, unless there's a reason for this (very buggy, obsolete and no longer useful, etc.).
(12:17:36 PM) homy1: QUESTION: <marrow>  Where can the "orphaned" packages checked out?
(12:17:52 PM) RainCT: I think there's currently some discussion on creating a team to look after them
(12:18:09 PM) RainCT: and get them into better shape (fix pending bugs, etc)
(12:19:20 PM) RainCT: There's a pretty useful tool called "Ubuntu External Health Status" which does list some information on packages that are either not in Debian or in Debian but maintained by the "Debian QA Team" (ie, they haven't a real maintainer)
(12:19:26 PM) RainCT: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/
(12:19:40 PM) homy1: QUESTION: <marrow>  Is there some website where the orphaned packages are listed?
(12:20:02 PM) RainCT: This page is actually a pretty good start point if you want to get involved with packaging tasks
(12:20:53 PM) RainCT: I've just answered that :). The UEHS page does list many such pages which have some problem, but I don't know of any list listing them absolutely all
(12:22:35 PM) RainCT: Harvest (http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/) is by the way also a quite useful page to find easy tasks, but it focuses on all sorts of packages. If you want more information about this check the logs of Daniel's session on "Fixing a bug in Ubuntu - it's easier than you think"
(12:23:33 PM) RainCT: I'll answer woody86's question now, why I skipped before :P
(12:23:33 PM) RainCT: < woody86> How could we (as normal non-motu) help out reviewing the packages in REVU?
(12:23:55 PM) RainCT: This is actually a very good question (and a bit difficult to answer :))
(12:24:36 PM) weboide: QUESTION: Can we upload packages built against jaunty on REVU yet? And is it possible to upload a package for both intrepid (for backports for example) and jaunty?
(12:24:48 PM) RainCT: (weboide: I'll answer that after the current question)
(12:24:59 PM) weboide: np :)
(12:25:07 PM) RainCT: If you have absolutely no packaging experience then there isn't really much you can do to help on REVU
(12:25:21 PM) RainCT: Perhaps trying to install packages from there and verifying if they work correctly
(12:25:57 PM) RainCT: which will be easier once I add the possibility to link REVU packages to PPAs (there's an "Import from PPA" option in the pipeline, btw)
(12:26:37 PM) RainCT: but if you really want to help I'd suggest you to learn about packaging, which will allow you to do much more useful stuff
(12:27:14 PM) RainCT: once you are confident with packaging, feel free to review packages and leave comments if you think you've found an issue
(12:27:20 PM) woody86: RainCT- sounds good, thanks :)
(12:27:52 PM) woody86: I'm being mentored right now, so hopefully I can help you guys out a little more really soon
(12:28:34 PM) RainCT: I'm thinking about adding an option for UUC (Ubuntu Contributing Developers - people who have acquired Ubuntu membership through work on packages) to give "recommendations" on packages
(12:28:44 PM) RainCT: (well, perhaps this isn't the best word)
(12:30:02 PM) RainCT: I don't mean comments with this (which is already possible, and encouraged :)), but the possibility to reject/advocate a package, but instead of couting the rejection or moving the package to the "needs work" section this will just show a special sign to let MOTUs/Core Devs know that someone has looked at it
(12:30:53 PM) RainCT: so if an UUC finds many obvious errors in a package he can recommend for it to be moved to "needs work" and a Developer can then do this
(12:31:37 PM) RainCT: Oh, something I've forget before. If you have no packaging skills you can help verifying if a package is also being worked on in Debian, but this will be done by automatic tools somewhen soon
(12:32:03 PM) RainCT: woody86: is this what you wanted to know? :)
(12:32:18 PM) RainCT: any doubt related to this particular question?
(12:32:47 PM) mode (+o nand ) by jcastro
(12:33:10 PM) RainCT: I'll assume no then, feel free to ask later if you have a question. Now to weboide's question
(12:33:15 PM) RainCT: < weboide> QUESTION: Can we upload packages built against jaunty on REVU yet? And is it possible to upload a package for both  intrepid (for backports for example) and jaunty?
(12:33:34 PM) RainCT: Yes, you *should* upload packages for Jaunty, but only for Jaunty.
(12:34:18 PM) RainCT: If you want to get it backported later then it's helpeful to ensure that it works (eg, the dependencies aren't too high unnecessarily, etc.)
(12:34:44 PM) RainCT: but there can't be two different versions of a package at the same time on REVU, and only packages against the current development release are accepted
(12:35:02 PM) RainCT: so, first get it into Jaunty, and then you can request a backport of it the usual way
(12:35:32 PM) RainCT: as explained on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports
(12:36:51 PM) weboide: Thank you RainCT i'll focus on jaunty then ;)
(12:37:08 PM) ***RainCT waits for more questions :)
(12:38:37 PM) sebner: Question: What is planned for the future (features , changes for Developers and Users) besides those you already mentioned :)
(12:38:50 PM) woody86: RainCT- no, that cleared everything up! Thanks :)
(12:38:58 PM) RainCT: Suggestions on how to improve REVU and the current processes are also welcome, btw. If you later have any question/comment, feel free to contact me on IRC or by mail. For problems with REVU, #ubuntu-motu is usually a better place to ask, though
(12:39:33 PM) RainCT: now that's a question I've been waiting for :)
(12:40:02 PM) RainCT: there are many things in the pipeline and many more ideas about which I'm still thinking
(12:40:26 PM) RainCT: some which you may expect to be available within the coming weeks/months are:
(12:41:45 PM) RainCT: Seeing the IRC (Freenode) username of REVU users next to their nick, linking (manually or automatically ) REVU packages to Launchpad, Debian, PPAs and Brainstorm (if we decide that package requests should be accepted there)
(12:42:27 PM) RainCT: the PPA import being finished, a possibility for reviewers to post neutral comments (to ask questions, leave comments, etc. without moving the package to the "needs work" queue)
(12:42:53 PM) RainCT: a "My uploads" section showing all your packages at the top of the index page, to have a better overview over them
(12:43:11 PM) RainCT: and more :)
(12:43:40 PM) sebner: :)
(12:43:46 PM) RainCT: ah, another interesting one: statistics and graphics on how many packages are pending review, how many are accepted, etc.
(12:43:49 PM) weboide: QUESTION: When uploading to REVU, the package version should be normal format (2.4.3-0ubuntu1 for example)?
(12:44:05 PM) pengo__ is now known as newpengo
(12:45:24 PM) RainCT: Further, I'm heavily thinking about how to improve the current processes and also about work with Debian (if you are interested in this, I may send a message with my toughts to the utnubu mailing list within the coming days/weeks).
(12:45:35 PM) RainCT: weboide: that's right! :)
(12:45:52 PM) P is now known as Guest19192
(12:45:52 PM) RainCT: the Debian revision for new packages on REVU should always be "-0ubuntu1"
(12:46:04 PM) sebner: RainCT: send it ;D
(12:46:22 PM) weboide: thanks, just makin sure :)
(12:46:25 PM) RainCT: and the upstream version (what comes before the last "-") should be the upstream version, but in some cases you'll have to change it
(12:46:42 PM) sebner: Questions. So you will also try to collaborate with Debian mentors?
(12:46:55 PM) RainCT: you may find weird upstreams who use versions like "2.0beta1"
(12:47:16 PM) RainCT: using this as the version of the package would break updates, so you'll have to use 2.0~beta1 instead
(12:47:25 PM) RainCT: the "~" means "before" (and there's also "+" which means "after)
(12:47:44 PM) RainCT: so the complete version in this example would be "2.0~beta1-0ubuntu1"
(12:48:27 PM) weboide: that would mean "before the version 2.0-0ubuntu1"
(12:48:37 PM) RainCT: weboide: indeed
(12:48:51 PM) RainCT: Note that you don't need to bump the Ubuntu revision in order to upload new candidates (though this may be required if you go the PPA way once there's the PPA Import feature; I'll figure something out to automatically fix the version string for those)
(12:49:42 PM) RainCT: I'll also mention that it's a common mistake for new contributors to upload packages with changelog entries coming from their PPA - this will always be rejected
(12:50:11 PM) weboide: You mean with a ppa version?
(12:50:23 PM) RainCT: debian/changelog must only have one entry, and the Debian revision must be 0ubuntu1
(12:51:36 PM) RainCT: also, using a version like "1.0-0ubuntu5" because «I've uploaded this package previously to my PPA using broken versioning and have "1.0-0ubuntu4" there. I want -0ubuntu5 now to ensure proper upgrads» is usually not accepted
(12:51:46 PM) RainCT: weboide: yes, version and changelog entries
(12:52:21 PM) ***sebner slightly feels ignored :P
(12:52:22 PM) RainCT: sebner: Yes. Collaboration with Debian, in any way, is a very interesting topic and it would be great to get something working there
(12:52:48 PM) RainCT: but there are no specific plans yet
(12:53:04 PM) sebner: RainCT: but keeping in mind that a package in ubuntu won't always get automatically accepted in Debian :\
(12:53:48 PM) RainCT: Sure. We still have a few minutes until Mike can rock with Launchpad i18n, so, is there any other question?
(12:54:05 PM) sebner: How many people are working on Revu currently?
(12:54:24 PM) RainCT: I missed this one:     < marrow> QUESTION: If only those packages are accepted, which are aimed for the  current developement release, than what happens  with those which are still in REVU, but originally they were submitted for an older release?
(12:55:47 PM) RainCT: This is a good question. If a package has "intrepid" in the changelog but is otherwise good it may still be advocated and this will be changed by the uploader before uploading it
(12:56:44 PM) RainCT: Those packages may be moved to the "needs-work" section at some point, though, to ensure that their submitters are still around and interested in getting them into Ubuntu - so that we don't review them for nothing
(12:56:56 PM) RainCT: (but it's unsure if and when this will happen)
(12:57:25 PM) RainCT: < sebner> How many people are working on Revu currently?
(12:57:40 PM) RainCT: sebner: in which regards? Developers, reviewers..?
(12:57:52 PM) sebner: RainCT: everthing you can tell me :P
(12:59:26 PM) RainCT: At the moment, actively working on the code there's basically only me. Michael Casadevall (Ncommander) did some important contributions a couple months ago, though (and apachelogger provided some great icons :))
(12:59:39 PM) garferi: omg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eSLaQQiok0&feature=related
(12:59:49 PM) RainCT: if you want to know the total amount of people with upload rights to the branch, check https://launchpad.net/~revu-hackers
(12:59:50 PM) garferi: sry, wrong place
(12:59:58 PM) garferi left the room ("báj").
(01:00:07 PM) RainCT: Finally, there's a list of the most active reviewers on http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/stats.py
(01:00:34 PM) sebner: RainCT: kay, thx. and the hour is over :P
(01:00:40 PM) RainCT: It's time, so the session ends here. Feel free to catch me later if you still have anything you'd like to ask/tell me.
(01:00:45 PM) nand: Ok, nice session RainCT, thanks!
(01:00:47 PM) RainCT: Thanks all for your interest! :)