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 * Standing agenda items:
  * '''Review [[NGO/Actions|action items]].'''
  * '''Update our [[NGO/TeamReports|team report]].'''
 * ''Packaging of Aptivate's pmGraph''
 * ''Low-connectivity areas -- updates in research?''
  * '' Ubuntu NGO Interviews -- Update''
 # Standing agenda items:

    * Review action items.
    * Update our team report.
    * UDS - Blueprints?

 # Who are we: Need a simple, easily translatable slogan to explain to others within the community who we are and why we do what we do. Ideas? Is there really understanding of what the NGO team does outside the NGO team?
 # From Karmic to Lucid: What are NGO-specific papercuts that we can identify for action this cycle?
 # Stakeholder profiles: Any way to easily consolidate NGO interviews done so far and identify what other NGO types should be interviewed? Is there any way to accommodate a broader tranche of collaborators by having such available in a collected, printer-friendly form?
 # Training: What tools could be deployed in conjunction with other teams to make training within NGOs as painless as possible? What other efforts are underway by other teams that we should collaborate in the development of?
 # Advocacy: What are Ubuntu-NGO advocating? Clearly define Ubuntu-NGO's role as a means of networking NGOs, rather than a hub-spoke relationship with Ubuntu-NGO, keeping the NGOs separate.
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 * kutukepik: how to write the wiki for ngo area

 * dholbach: to find out who to mail re server issues raised in NGO interviews, follow upon Nicolas Mail to be sent

 * dholbach: I'll take the action point of trying to look into something TODO like and how we can try to keep it updated


 * jimcooncat: update wiki with preseed installation setups

 * verng: to sent out a poll to find out what the groups interest is in

 * skellat: help clean up the No Connectivity page

 * czajkowski: continue NGO interviews
 * andylockran and Pendulum: To work on What we do for the wiki and help make it clearer

 * dholbach: to find out what date and time the session at UDS will take place and mail the list with how to participate remotely.

 * czajkowski: To blog post and find us a slogan


 * jdardon: is going to mail czajkowski so we can get the interviews back up and running

 * czajkowski: continue NGO interview series starting with andylockran
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18:04 < dholbach> alright... let's kick off then - who wants to drive the meeting? who wants to keep the log and send it out/wikify it later on? :)
18:05 * dholbach is happy to drive
18:05 < dholbach> who wants to take care of logging/wikifying it?
18:05 < dholbach> ok, maybe let's worry about that afterwards :)
18:06 < czajkowski> I don't have time this wee, sorry! :(
18:06 < dholbach> let's start with a quick round of introductions - who you are what you're interested in and how you got here :-)
18:07 < czajkowski> Aloha, laura here from Ireland working on ubuntu interviews, got interested in this last May over at UDS and liking what I'm seeing
18:07 < james_w> hi, I'm James Westby, Ubuntu developer and interested in NGO stuff
18:07 < skellat> Hello, my name is Stephen Michael Kellat. I'm based in Sheffield Township, Ohio. I'm here as I've worked outside the US and as a degreed
                 librarian have a bit of a proprietary interest in fixing the digital divide.
18:07 < bac> hi i'm brad. i work on launchpad and not currently involved with NGOs but am interested.
18:08 < kutukepik> hi, i am frans thamura, opensource activiist mostly java educator, Jakarta, Indonesia, use ubuntu as default development operating system
18:08 < Grantbow_> hi, Grant Bowman here from San Francisco. I'm an Ubuntu Member, California LoCo contributor and contributor to an OLPC laptop.org
                   deployment to Madagascar going on right now.
18:08 < dholbach> andylockran, verng, Cracknel, jeroenimo, highvoltage, ccm, jimcooncat, matti, mathew, popey, ziroday, RobLoach, SWAT: what about you?
18:08 < popey> o/
18:08 < verng> Hi VernG a volunteer for group called HumaniNet. Like groups interest on low bandwidth. That is real world just last week talk someone
               Haiti
18:08 < matti> Hello, my name is Krzysztof Wilczynski (or KW in short; preferably matti). I am interested in NGO, as I am already participating in IT 4
               Charities in the UK.
18:09 < matti> Hi popey
18:09 < dholbach> I'm Daniel Holbach, Ubuntu Developer, interested in all NGO stuff and interested in making Ubuntu better for NGOs :)
18:09 < popey> Hello, I'm Alan Pope, I have no experience of working with NGOs, but have experience of Ubuntu, and want to help make Ubuntu better for NGOs
18:09 * dholbach high-fives all of you!
18:10 < dholbach> thanks all for coming - this is amazing
18:10 < matti> ;]
18:10 < dholbach> maybe we should start with a quick update on all the things we've been working on - that'd probably help with two agenda items on the list
                  :)
18:10 < dholbach> ... and help newcomers to see who's working on what
18:10 < dholbach> so who wants to go first?
18:11 < kutukepik> i am mostly working in education and teach people to use opensource and make them familiar with, esp in development area
18:11 < kutukepik> what is segment for this?
18:11 < czajkowski> I've been working on interviewing NGO's and have interviewed 3 so far 2 last week, 1 was blogged about so far
                    http://www.lczajkowski.com/2009/09/15/an-interview-from-a-ngo-association-managers-perspective/ hoping to get the other 2 up this week
                    before holidays. I've been asking them what they do, and their issues they've come up against
18:12 < dholbach> kutukepik: one area we'd like to improve is documentation for NGOs - some of them just don't know about "preferred solutions for handling
                  web/email/office-related stuff", some don't know how to set up some team information structure (like mailing lists)
18:12 < czajkowski> with that I tweeted/dented some issues, and one issues may be looked at by the server team, as a lot of ngos find the server not very
                    user friendly
18:12 < dholbach> kutukepik: so some of your experience in our wiki documentation would be a fantastic start already
18:12 < dholbach> and if it's just small wiki pages - it's a start :)
18:13 < dholbach> czajkowski: that sounds great - thanks for working on those interviews - do you need access to that wordpress blog?
18:13 < dholbach> if so, just tell me the email address you've been using with wordpress.com
18:13 < Grantbow_> jono: nice twitter
18:13 < jono> Grantbow_, :
18:13 < jono> :)
18:13 < dholbach> czajkowski: did the server team reply?
18:14 < matti> Hi jono
18:14 < czajkowski> dholbach: will do, but not sure I'll haev a chance, I've them drafted on my blog, and I think Jan may update the wiki
18:14 < jono> hey matti
18:14 < mathew> Hi, Mathew Chacko from India, a web app developer, an Ubuntu user and selected as a member of ICT committee of one of the biggest church in
                India.
18:14 < czajkowski> dholbach: Nicolas asked what were the issues the NGOS had specifcally wit the servers, so I copied him some of the points and he said
                    he'd pass it on
18:14 < qwebirc80596> wats ubuntu ngo?
18:14 < dholbach> czajkowski: if you need any help with that, please let me know, Paolo wanted to help too, Jan too, so we should find somebody :)
18:14 < kutukepik> how to write the wiki for ngo area, can give me the glue?
18:15 < czajkowski> dholbach: the main issues being it's not as easy as debian, documentaion is poor, and it's not as easy to follow. desktop has better
18:15 < highvoltage> qwebirc80596: check the URL's in the topic :)
18:15 < czajkowski> dholbach: excellet, what I might do is even get them up on my blog and they can use that and the logs to update the wiki /???
18:15 < dholbach> czajkowski: not as easy as Debian?
18:15 < qwebirc80596> ah Non-governmental organisation
18:15 < czajkowski> dholbach: yes.. ironic really
18:16 < ebel> czajkowski: which is silly cause server-wise ubuntu is practically identical as debian. L(
18:16 < dholbach> czajkowski: if you could let me know what the issue was there or the bug number or just a link that'd be good
18:16 < ebel> Any "Howto install X on Debian" guide is almost certainly going to work on Ubuntu Server.
18:16 < czajkowski> dholbach: want me to paste in here so everyone is on the same page
18:16 < dholbach> kutukepik: we started with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO/Software but it's still pretty sparse
18:16 < czajkowski> hmm or paste.ubuntu.com
18:16 < czajkowski> 2 seconds
18:16 < dholbach> if you could note down some ideas there, that'd be great - or raise it on the mailing list, so people can discuss it with you
18:17 < dholbach> czajkowski: as you like it
18:17 < kutukepik> just questio, i think NGO for development country will push goverment to be more care to their citizen
18:17 < czajkowski> so here are some points from ngo re server issues http://paste.ubuntu.com/280548/
18:17 < dholbach> ok, thanks
18:17 < dholbach> was that on a mailing list or bug report somewhere?
18:17 < czajkowski> dholbach: they are nothing major b ut if we can help..
18:18 < czajkowski> dholbach: I didnt know who to mail....
18:18 < dholbach> ok, I'll find out
18:18 < dholbach> thanks czajkowski
18:18 < czajkowski> so I mailed nicolas as he commneted on fb he could show someone
18:18 < dholbach> cool :)
18:18 < dholbach> I'll have a look tomorrow
18:19 < dholbach> so here's my small update since the last meeting - I haven't had too much time unfortunately, so I just packaged a few more modules to get
                  us to include civicrm in Ubuntu at some stage
18:19 < dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO/ApplicationPackaging has more detailed information of where we're standing
18:19 < dholbach> it's difficult work because one piece software includes another piece of software which bundles another piece of software, etc.
18:19 < jimcooncat> dholbach: you called?
18:20 < dholbach> and afterwards you still need to make sure that things work, etc.
18:20 < dholbach> but we're getting there... eventually
18:20 < highvoltage> (sorry I lost track of time and missed the first part of the meeting (and partiallly didn't realise that it was the meeting yet))
18:20 < dholbach> another problem is that licensing sometimes is not tip-top and I had a bunch of conversations with upstreams and they were willing to fix
                  it
18:20 < dholbach> also I've been trying to get a few of the modules into Debian so we all benefit from it
18:21 < czajkowski> jimcooncat: I mentioned your interview :)
18:21 < dholbach> jimcooncat: we just kicked off another Ubuntu NGO meeting and I thought you'd be interested in introducing yourself - thats what we
                  started with :)
18:21 < dholbach> anybody else who has been active in the last few weeks in Ubuntu NGO land?
18:21 < czajkowski> ebel: ^^
18:21 < dholbach> we have quite a bunch of people listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO/Activities :)
18:21 < ebel> dholbach: yeah ish.
18:22 < ebel> I gave a talk at OSSBarCamp in Dublin about Offline Content.
18:22 < dholbach> ebel: how did it go?
18:22 < ebel> It was videoed but the video isn't online yet.
18:22 < jimcooncat> sorry I'm late. I help manage several non-profits in Maine, USA
18:22 < highvoltage> If I may budge in with a quick intro, I haven't done anything for Ubuntu-NGO but I am interested, having worked with and for NGO's in
                     the past
18:22 < dholbach> nice
18:22 < highvoltage> jimcooncat: what kind of non-profits?
18:22 < dholbach> ebel: how was it received?
18:23 < RobLoach> Introduction: Rob Loach, Developer. Ubuntu lover that uses Drupal to build pimp websites.
18:23 < ebel> I was just talking about my experience in using ubuntu with camara while in africa. I also covered things like how to use WIkipedia,
              openStreetmaps, ubuntu/debian documentation and apt offline
18:23 < jimcooncat> highvoltage: two trade associations, one intergovernmental association, two charities (plus some for-profits)
18:23 < dholbach> ebel: any folks that might want to join our ship and help us out? :)
18:23 < ebel> dholbach: I'm not sure.
18:24 < ebel> It was well recieved. I mentioned the ubuntu ngo group breifly.
18:24 < czajkowski> ebel: would any of the camara folks join in, surely any developments made they could use and help to get things done ?
18:25 < ebel> I'm not sure. I've mentioned ubuntu-ngo a few times to camara people.
18:25 < ebel> At the moment they are getting machines in front of people.
18:25 < dholbach> I get the feeling we need to get a lot better at saying what we need help with, break it down into small chunks and track status
18:26 < czajkowski> aye
18:26 < dholbach> that way people from "the outside" can quickly see what needs happening
18:26 < skellat> Amen
18:26 < dholbach> especially in the offline updating world or the documentation world I could imagine there's a few simple things that people could help out
                  with
18:26 < ebel> Yes.
18:26 < ebel> The best is sorta to go out and do it sometimes,.
18:26 < dholbach> who would like to set up some kind of TODO list for a specific area of stuff we're interested in? on the wiki
18:27 < ebel> Or make it reaaaal easy. "Run this command. Wait. Burn CD"
18:27 < dholbach> no, I think it's enough to have something like
18:27 < dholbach> || What || Who || Status ||
18:28 < dholbach> || document our preferred mail solutions || dholbach || started, just put a few links in there ||
18:28 < dholbach> etc
18:28 < dholbach> nothing major, but just something to get started with :)
18:28 < dholbach> so who'd like to start that off for say documentation, OfflineMedia, ngo stories, etc?
18:29 < jimcooncat> I guess I don't understand the focus of this group -- would like to help out with the little free time I have, but I guess I don't get
                    where you're headed.
18:30 < skellat> jimcooncat: Whether you're a missionary or working for an aid group, you have the possibility of taking computing equipment into less than
                 hospitable lands. Part of what is discussed is how to bridge gaps and allow for equivalent experiences for do-gooders in the field.
18:30 < ebel> dholbach: well I'm going to put up the video for the talk I did.
18:30 < dholbach> jimcooncat: the team is just a few weeks old now, the vision is to make Ubuntu better suited for NGOs - based on the interest we got in
                  meetings, mailing list discussions and so on, we picked a few things we thought we might easily help out with:
18:30 < ebel> That'll be a start.
18:30 < dholbach> - documentation of best-practices and 'preferred solutions'
18:30 < bittin_> awesome =)
18:31 < dholbach> - write up stories about NGOs that are using Ubuntu
18:31 < ebel> I think all improvements to Ubuntu will make NGOs (and everyone else) more likely to use FLOSS.
18:31 < dholbach> - make it easier to work in areas with bad/little internet
18:31 < dholbach> - bring in applications that might be useful for NGOs
18:31 < dholbach> - etc. :)
18:31 < ebel> However I think one area that doesn't get a lot of love is offline stuff. Being able to stuff when offline.
18:31 < dholbach> jimcooncat: does that make more sense now?
18:31 < dholbach> ebel: great
18:32 < verng> preferred solutions also mean power products that would make low power computing possible in remote field locations
18:32 < ebel> In my talk I mentioned that only because wikipedia is CC licenced does it mean you can put it offline. Only cause ubuntu is floss can you make
              a CD of all the software.
18:32 < dholbach> ebel: if you have a few ideas already, it'd be great if you could note them down in a TODO section :-)
18:33 < dholbach> verng: we can sure do that, but I was initially mostly thinking of covering "just" the software part
18:33 < ebel> verng: I remember someone asking us if they could run a lab of computers off a marine battery.
18:33 < jimcooncat> dholbach: yes, it's wide ranging. I could probably work on preseed installation setups?
18:33 < skellat> As to power projects and the like, I suggest consulting "The ARRL Handbook" in its latest edition. Ham radio ops have created unique field
                 power solutions for around 50 years now.
18:34 < ebel> jimcooncat: oh I've done a bit of stuff on that. :)
18:34 < dholbach> jimcooncat: if you have experience with that and can maybe just add a little bit of information about that on the wiki you'd be one of the
                  Ubuntu NGO Heroes!
18:34 < dholbach> and if we in the beginning merely collect links to good howtos, that'd be a good start too
18:35 < dholbach> as we'll help NGOs to find stuff they should be looking for
18:35 < verng> When comes to power, other accessories since I have not found a lot of good portals maybe we can just provide the links. Making sure that
               we are focusing on powering up communication devices.
18:35 < dholbach> (instead of trying to set up 50 different mailing list solutions or something... :-))
18:36 < dholbach> it seems there was little interest in setting up TODO list like wiki pages... how do you think we can make it easier to note that stuff
                  down that needs doing and convey it to the outside world?
18:36 < skellat> verng: This is one of those cases where the material needed is more in print than online.
18:36 < dholbach> I'd really love to see this team a bit more organised (not that we're unorganised), so that it's move inviting and obvious what we're
                  there for
18:37 < jimcooncat> dholbach: As I've mentioned before, the term "NGO" isn't in the USA vocabulary
18:37 < dholbach> right
18:38 < dholbach> I was trying to get more to the point of organisation within the team, but maybe we can have a separate discussion at some stage about the
                  team name if we deem it necessary
18:38 < czajkowski> nods
18:39 < dholbach> ok, I'll take the action point of trying to look into something TODO like and how we can try to keep it updated
18:39 < dholbach> any more updates from last few weeks?
18:39 < dholbach> if not, I'd pass on the mic to james_w who wants to talk about pmGraph
18:40 < czajkowski> is james_w here?
18:41 < james_w> hi
18:42 < dholbach> james_w: you wanted to talk about pmgraph?
18:42 < james_w> I did
18:42 < james_w> just wanted to make sure there were no more updates :-)
18:43 < dholbach> ah ok - looks like there are none :)
18:43 < james_w> so, my friends at aptivate have developed this thing called pmGraph
18:43 < james_w> they are keen to get it in to Ubuntu proper, they currently distribute it in a PPA
18:44 < dholbach> is this the right link: http://www.aptivate.org/Projects.BMOTools.pmGraph.html ?
18:44 < james_w> so would somebody like to help them through that process?
18:44 < james_w> yeah
18:44 < james_w> https://launchpad.net/~pmgraph is their launchpad team and PPA
18:45 < dholbach> james_w: I'm a bit short on time, but I guess I could take it on together with jcastro
18:45 < dholbach> james_w: where do you think will NGOs benefit from it?
18:45 < james_w> yeah, I failed to help them in time for the Karmic freeze
18:46 < james_w> well, they would have a better distribution mechanism and more exposure for their tool :-)
18:46 < czajkowski> james_w: but how would this help the NGO, what benefit to them
18:46 < verng> james will it help people with devices like satellite phones attached to laptops decide which apps are most efficient over low bandwidth
               connections
18:47 < dholbach> james_w: it sure looks interesting though - I was mostly interested in your opinion on where it could best help
18:47 < james_w> I guess the best thing to do would be to contact them to ask about where they see the tool being valuable
18:48 < dholbach> ok
18:48 < dholbach> I can do that
18:48 < james_w> at least they are using a PPA :-)
18:48 < dholbach> cool, thanks james_w
18:48 < james_w> it may be the best distribution mechanism in this case, but they approached me and asked for help
18:48 < james_w> thanks for your time
18:48 < dholbach> did we cover everything on the meeting agenda?
18:49 < dholbach> if so, I'd be interested to hear what you are willing to put some time into in the next weeks
18:49 < czajkowski> #
18:49 < czajkowski> Low-connectivity areas -- updates in research?
18:49 < czajkowski> was that covered or did I miss it
18:50 < skellat> czajkowski: I put that down
18:51 < dholbach> skellat: oh... I thought we covered all the updates in the ngo team already - alright... the floor is yours
18:51 < verng> regarding low connectivity anyone seen or used the AA powered Norhtec netbook Just curious
18:52 < dholbach> nope
18:52 < skellat> Yikes, okay. Just a few quick points. As I noted previously on the listserv, D-STAR is not a viable technology except at microwave
                 frequencies. Further investigation of WinLink 2000 would be advisable (see: http://www.winlink.org/ ). There are some papers I'm starting
                 to dig into so unless anybody else has something I just ask that we avoid "not invented here" syndrome.
18:54 < dholbach> skellat: can you please, briefly, let us know what you're looking into there? I'm not sure what Ubuntu does with microwave frequencies and
                  how we could best improve that?
18:54 < skellat> Okay, when D-Star was listed as a technology to investigate for off-line situations...there are some problems with that.
18:54 -!- qwebirc42210 is now known as d1337r
18:55 < skellat> It only works in line of sight situations and doesn't really improve connectivity for any NGO group using it.
18:55 < dholbach> I personally have no idea what d-star is, is it software that we have in Ubuntu or should have there?
18:55 < skellat> It's on the wiki referenced under your task area
18:56 < dholbach> well... that's not my task area :)
18:56 < skellat> Ah
18:56 < dholbach> or at least no exclusively :)
18:56 < skellat> Let's park this agenda item then and leave it to listserv discussion as IRC isn't conducive to it. It is too complicated and in-depth.
18:57 < skellat> The wiki page referenced, of course, is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO/NoConnectivity
18:57 < czajkowski> dholbach: myself and jan are waiting on a few more ngos to contact us back regarding scheduling of interviews, time differences and
                    getting folks together proves a tad difficult, also nothing will get done for the next 12 days as I'm gone.
18:58 < dholbach> skellat: did you find anybody who'd be interested in helping out with that? I personally don't know 1) what it does and 2) what we could
                  improve in Ubuntu for it
18:58 < dholbach> czajkowski: ok... do you need some help with anything or is everthing ticking on nicely?
18:59 < czajkowski> dholbach: myself and jan are waiting on a few more ngos to contact us back regarding scheduling of interviews, time differences and
                    getting folks together proves a tad difficult, also nothing will get done for the next 12 days as I'm gone.
18:59 < dholbach> everybody else: what NGO team related are you going to put some time into in the next weeks? :)
18:59 < dholbach> czajkowski: ok... so you don't need any help?
18:59 < czajkowski> if anyone has any other groups you'd like myself or Jan to contact let us know
19:00 < skellat> dholbach: The relevant page notes: "We need to investigate D-STAR. This is a technology that can give you ~128Kbs via long range radio
                 signals. Linux drivers exist." Wearing my other hat as a ham radio operator, I can say that it won't help Ubuntu in the way it appears
                 contemplated although I'm willing to discuss it further.
19:00 < czajkowski> dholbach: I may need help getting the wiki updated with the logs but that's about it
19:01 < dholbach> skellat: I'm sorry - I don't know who put it on that page and can say much about the technology there
19:01 < czajkowski> I'll post to the list, jan may help out of he has time?
19:01 < czajkowski> dholbach: thanks :)
19:01 < dholbach> czajkowski: that sounds great - hope you find a few new contributors to that effort :)
19:01 < czajkowski> if folks want another meeting at the end of oct let me know and I'll do up another doodle for times and dates?
19:01 < skellat> dholbach: That's fine, further discussion of such by me will be left to the listserv for now.
19:01 < dholbach> anybody else? what are things you'd be interested in working on in the next weeks?
19:02 < dholbach> czajkowski: that'd be sweet :)
19:02 < dholbach> I guess we need more regular meetings
19:02 < dholbach> skellat: thanks for looking into this
19:03 < dholbach> personally, I'll try to get some more of the packaging done and hope we can soon start testing the packaged civicrm
19:03 < skellat> dholbach: I'll try to help clean up the No Connectivity page. I recorded a feature in this area yesterday:
                 http://lisnews.org/listen_lisnews_org_podcast_episode_88
19:03 < czajkowski> dholbach: we should aim for once a month, anything more sooner, really at this stage is pointless?
19:03 < dholbach> also I'll try to get some more people involved at the Ubuntu Global Jam in Berlin and see if they can help with some simple packaging tasks
19:03 < czajkowski> your loco rocks
19:03 < dholbach> skellat: cool! thanks :)
19:04 < czajkowski> re meeting time, earlier or later?
19:04 < dholbach> czajkowski: the first time I had the same feeling when I had 40 people at the first ubuntu release party in my appartment
19:04 < dholbach> czajkowski: doodle?
19:04 < czajkowski> dholbach: the meeting thing, but just so I try and put more times in to suits folks,
19:04 < dholbach> czajkowski: yeah that sounds good
19:04 < czajkowski> dholbach: you must have a massive apt :p
19:05 < dholbach> czajkowski: not really! :)
19:05 < dholbach> czajkowski: I just didn't expect that many :)
19:05 < dholbach> alright
19:05 < skellat> dholbach: When shall we meet next?
19:06 < dholbach> skellat: I think czajkowski is going to set up a doodle poll and let us know via mailing list
19:06 < czajkowski> skellat: I'll send out a mail to the list, with a date/time poll for folks to fill in
19:06 < dholbach> so folks can fill out which time suits them best
19:06 < dholbach> shall we aim for something in 4 weeks?
19:06 < skellat> As long as we avoid Halloween, we should be good.
19:07 < dholbach> seems like we covered updates from last meeting, agenda items and what we're going to work on next - if anybody isn't sure what they
                  should be working on or something, please let the mailing list know! :-)
19:07 < czajkowski> shall post out dates from 8- 29 th october
19:07 < verng> using doodle what about finding out people's area of primary interest in Ubuntu-NGO
19:07 < czajkowski> verng: you can do up a poll and send to list if you like?
19:09 < dholbach> alright... any other business?
18:02 < dholbach> who wants to drive the meeting?
18:02 < czajkowski> I can if you like ?
18:02 -!- Topic for #ubuntu-ngo: What is Ubuntu-NGO, ROOT is here | http://daniel.holba.ch/blog/?p=422 | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO |Join https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ngo | IRC
          Meeting Wednesday 11th November 18:00 UTC https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO/Meeting | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-ngo
18:02 -!- Topic set by czajkowski [n=cypher@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.czajkowski] [Tue Nov 10 10:27:45 2009]
18:02 < dholbach> sure
18:02 * AlanBell pours the wine
18:03 < dholbach> sounds like we're all in a good mood :)
18:03 < dholbach> who's all here for the meeting?
18:03 * highvoltage
18:03 * czajkowski
18:03 * AlanBell
18:03 * Pendulum
18:03 * skellat fumbles with IRC client
18:03 * andylockran
18:04 < czajkowski> well we can post mins to the list and on the wiki afterwards
18:04 < czajkowski> I know with timezones its hard to be here
18:04 < czajkowski> so this evenings/afternoon/todays agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO/Meeting
18:04 < andylockran> :)
18:05 < czajkowski> so * Review action items
18:05 < highvoltage> w/win move 4
18:05 < czajkowski> I note from the mailing list there has been a lotta discussion on packaging CiviCRM and bugs
18:06 < czajkowski> anyone care to discuss the actions items
18:06 < dholbach> yes, we were able to clear a few licensing issues with upstreams of a couple of php modules
18:06 < dholbach> so that should make it easier for us to get them into debian and ubuntu
18:06 < czajkowski> I know my interview series went down wel and I plan on talking to andylockran soon about his project
18:06 < dholbach> there's still some way to go, but I hope I can discuss a few ideas with asomething at UDS
18:07 < czajkowski> good stuff
18:07 < dholbach> and we can move over to testing the civicrm packages (and pester upstream with issues :-))
18:07 < dholbach> we have like 2 or 3 civicrm upstreams on the ngo team list now
18:07 < dholbach> which is great
18:07 < dholbach> czajkowski: your interviews were great :)
18:07 < czajkowski> I intend to find out more about that seeing as tbh I'm rather i the dark there about it
18:07 * dholbach does not have more to report on action items
18:08 < czajkowski> * UDS - Blueprints
18:08 < czajkowski> Andrew Starr-Bochicchio created one https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-ngo
18:08 < czajkowski> and I hope we can build on it
18:09 < dholbach> did Mr Bacon schedule it?
18:09 < dholbach> also we should announce on the list when that session is going to be, so we get maximum remote participation
18:09 < czajkowski> dholbach: think so... he said he was doing it earlier on in the channel
18:09 < czajkowski> nods
18:09 < czajkowski> adn then go find the server team
18:09 < dholbach> ACTION: Daniel to send mail with NGO UDS Session time and date
18:09 < czajkowski> as some of the issues coming up maybe they could help with
18:10 < dholbach> definitely
18:10 < czajkowski> I was thinking of something along the lines of a papercut exercise
18:10 < czajkowski> there isn't 100 of them
18:10 * skellat scratches head and wonders if there is an initial whip count of who is attending UDS-L
18:10 < czajkowski> but some of the stuff we could work on that
18:10 * czajkowski shall be attending UDS
18:10 * andylockran won't be
18:10 < czajkowski> as is popey dholbach
18:10 < czajkowski> and Paolo is also
18:11 < dholbach> nice
18:11 < skellat> I've got a temp contract so I won't be leaving Ohio any time soon, alas
18:11 < dholbach> asomething too
18:11 < czajkowski> andylockran: you've added some thoughts on the Agenda here, would you like to discuss them and how we can work on them for UDS
18:13 < czajkowski> so one of andylockran comments was From Karmic to Lucid: What are NGO-specific papercuts that we can identify for action this cycle?
18:13 < dholbach> (also I'm sure we'll attract a bunch more future Ubuntu NGO team members at UDS :-))
18:13 < czajkowski> and I know jono and co are working on roadmaps
18:13 < czajkowski> so I think it would be good to use this for us and possible give some structure to the group
18:13 < skellat> I forgot to sign a couple of those. Advocacy was Andy's. The others were mine.
18:14 < andylockran> czajkowski: yeah, my thoughts are with advocacy
18:14 < czajkowski> skellat: ahh thanks wasn't sure
18:14 < andylockran> and how to shape it as NGO
18:14 < czajkowski> skellat: well fire away and discuss so
18:15 < skellat> As noted on the agenda, a few things might help in the work. First is a slogan (one sentence) that sums up what Ubuntu NGO does so others understand. Second is
                 collecting the interviews into an offline-friendly form so people can read them. I'
18:15 < skellat> I'm 28 and have trouble curling up to read e-material lately while books still work nicely.
18:16 < skellat> It may be just me but interview collections are easier to read in print than on-screen.
18:16 < czajkowski> skellat: any idea as to what the slogan could be ? nice idea
18:16 < skellat> Ubuntu NGO: Helping Integrate Freedom
18:16 < highvoltage> that sounds a bit cliche imho, but I can't think of something better right now so I won't judge :)
18:17 < AlanBell> I think it might include the word "charity" "volunteer" or "third sector" as I had to google to find out what an NGO was
18:17 < czajkowski> well yes in USA NGO doesnt exist, they are non profits
18:17 < Pendulum> voluteer is the best of those 3 words IMO
18:17 < dholbach> Ubuntu NGO Team, helping others to help.
18:17 < czajkowski> and in euope they are mostly ngos
18:17 < skellat> The reason I went with integrating freedom in the initial was that NGOs are freedom crusaders at times themselves and we spread the idea of software freedom.
18:18 < Pendulum> Ubuntu NGO: Helping Your Charity Donations Go Towards What's Really Needed ?
18:18 < highvoltage> dholbach: that's quite nice
18:18 < jdardon> in latam ngo is not always charity or donations is more like social consultants
18:19 < dholbach_> if only I had had some of AlanBell's wine, I'd be a bit more creative :)
18:19 < jdardon> execution of social projects, development in poor areas etc..
18:19 * AlanBell passes dholbach_ a glass
18:19 -!- dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
18:20 < skellat> As I intended placing this on the agenda, it makes it easier for others to understand us if we had a slogan they can start with. It also helps show how we
                 understand what we are doing ourselves.
18:20 < andylockran> I think my advocacy bit fits in here - in that Ubuntu NGO is inheritently different from ubuntu advocacy.
18:20 < czajkowski> true as I just had a nice pm saying that they have looked at the site and were a bit confused as to the role of us, so a slogan and an explaination would help
18:21 < skellat> andylockran: Agreed. I was going to edit the page to move the items closer.
18:21 < andylockran> I think we're reactive and providing a voice to the ubuntu community for NGOs, rather than providing a voice from teh ubuntu community to NGOs
18:21 < andylockran> if you get my drift?
18:21 < czajkowski> andylockran: I like it
18:22 < highvoltage> heh, anything I can think of sounds too lame to me (probably because I've seen so many ngo catch phrases and slogans before)
18:22 < Pendulum> andylockran: I think that makes a lot of sense
18:22 < skellat> Ubuntu NGO: Taking Software Freedom From Theory To Practice
18:23 < dholbach> maybe we can do a call for slogans via our blog? :)
18:23 < Pendulum> skellat: I like that a lot, actually
18:23 < highvoltage> that's not very ngo-specific though, the same could be said for commercial deployments (not that I want to nitpic)
18:23 * dholbach has been in naming/slogan meetings a lot already :)
18:23 < czajkowski> highvoltage: never :p
18:23 < czajkowski> skellat: nice
18:23 < dholbach> if you want to continue brainstorming that's totally cool with me though :)
18:24 < skellat> highvoltage: Don't worry. I'm just throwing ideas out.
18:24 < Pendulum> what about taking "software" out of it?
18:24 < Pendulum> so it's Ubuntu NGO: Taking Freedom From Theory To Practice
18:24 < highvoltage> I guess a description would already help a lot, but a nice slogan would be very cool for the elevator-type people who casually notices it somewhere
18:24 < skellat> Pendulum: That comes down to a question of what we do. Do we do service projects or do we tinker with software bits on the back-end.
18:25 < jdardon> we should start making a list of words that are related to the term NGO and part from there ?
18:25 < czajkowski> skellat: I think removeing software makes it more open and welcoming to get folks invovled
18:25 < issyl0> Hi all
18:25 < dholbach> hi issyl0
18:26 < skellat> czajkowski: That's fine, but we're working under the aegis of what is a software project.
18:26 < czajkowski> true
18:26 < highvoltage> lately I've noticed some people dismissing things as fundamentalist when you use terms like "freedom" or "free software" in slogans, etc.
18:26 < czajkowski> perhaps we should write these up on the blog and ask the mailing list/planet to help suggest a slogan ?
18:27 < highvoltage> (nm, forget I said that even)
18:27 < skellat> czajkowski: Agreed
18:27 < highvoltage> czajkowski: wider input would be nice
18:27 < dholbach> and discuss at the next meeting
18:27 < dholbach> that'd give us enough time for everything
18:27 < skellat> highvoltage: Actually...you raise a rather good point. I haven't figured out where the whole "fundamentalist" meme started but that would like to a Princess
                 Bride quote...
18:27 < dholbach> re-blogging and re-microblogging the call for ideas would be nice
18:27 < Pendulum> Maybe come up with a good description before we ask for slogans?
18:28 < dholbach> of what the team is about?
18:28 < andylockran> sorry, reboot
18:28 < czajkowski> Pendulum: issyl0 you're both new, what are your 1st impressions of the ngo group,
18:28 < Pendulum> (especially if we're asking for outside help)
18:28 < Pendulum> yeah
18:28 < czajkowski> what it does or meant to do ?
18:28 < issyl0> I saw czajkowski's tweet about the meeting and didn't know what the ubuntu NGO was, so I looked it up, and found the website was very confusing and didn't explain
                clearly enough what the NGO team. Maybe simple.wp.org/wiki/NGO would have helped, instead of the longwinded enwp one... and I did read all the pages on the site,
                so re: the agenda question is there really understanding of what the ngo team does outside the ng
18:29 < skellat> Well, list the activities we're carrying out so far. We do packaging. We're slowly starting to look for NGO-specific papercuts. What else do we do?
18:29 < Pendulum> czajkowski: I'm not a good person to ask because my knowledge comes directly from you and not from the site. Mostly came along because NGOs and philosophies I
                  picked up while active in those are a lot of why I'm interested in Ubuntu :)
18:30 < czajkowski> we are a resource lately for ngos to ask for help and advice
18:30 < issyl0> Er.. first impressions of the group.. confusing, didn't really (and still don't) understand what it's about :)
18:30 < andylockran> I think that's fair, given that the group is still very much in development
18:30 < jdardon> help NGO's to cut the digital breach ??
18:31 < issyl0> andylockran, ah right
18:31 < dholbach> "The aim of the Ubuntu NGO team is to make it as easy as possible to make use of Ubuntu in charities, non-profits and NGOs and benefit from the best free
                  software has to offer." or something?
18:31 < dholbach> I'm sure that 3-4 sentences should be fine :)
18:31 < andylockran> The main role so far has been packaging software that has been cited by NGO affiliates.
18:31 < czajkowski> dholbach: yes thats much simplier and easier to understant
18:31 < Pendulum> That's a good first sentence
18:31 < czajkowski> *understand
18:31 < skellat> dholbach: That works.
18:31 < issyl0> dholbach, yeah that's good. :)
18:31 < andylockran> yeah, I like that
18:31 < dholbach> that took all my remaining brain power
18:31 < dholbach> thanks guys :)
18:32 < issyl0> Hehe
18:32 < jdardon> ;)
18:32 < Pendulum> a couple sentences fleshing out how we do it is probably what's needed to flesh it out to a proper description
18:32 < skellat> dholbach: Better now than on a stage somewhere in front of people having to think that up
18:32 < andylockran> Yeah, I reckon that needs a wiki :)
18:32 * andylockran would volunteer but currently in CLI mode
18:33 < dholbach> ok, who's going to work on that "call for slogans" blog post?
18:33 * skellat could do so later today
18:33 < czajkowski> who would like to updat the wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO with what dholbach said and fleshing it out with what we do, in a nice easy to read manner?
18:33 < czajkowski> I'll do the call for slogans post this evneing on the NGO blog
18:33 * skellat could combine such with the other writing bit
18:33 < dholbach> that would also get back some action on http://ubuntungo.wordpress.com/ :-)
18:33 < Pendulum> If someone gives me bullet points other than "we make pachages", I can do it this evening :)
18:33 < andylockran> czajkowski: I'll flesh it out if someone can stick the first bit up :)
18:34 < czajkowski> Pendulum: andylockran can ye work to flesh it out so ?
18:34 < czajkowski> please
18:34 < czajkowski> and I'll send ye cookies!!
18:34 < highvoltage> dholbach: that kind of fits in with the usual ubuntu project definitions as well :)
18:34 < czajkowski> andylockran: in you case I'll send you a working lock
18:34 < andylockran> hehe, no worries :)
18:34 < issyl0> Heh
18:34 < andylockran> Pendulum: sounds good.
18:34 < dholbach> Pendulum: we're interested in 1) documenting free software best-practices for NGOs, 2) making offline media easier, 3) packaging NGO-specific apps, 4) talk about
                  how NGOs using Ubuntu make the world better, 5) ... ?
18:34 < czajkowski> dholbach: I'll update the ngo blog
18:34 < andylockran> Pendulum: you put up some ideas and I'll develop them in the morning.
18:35 < andylockran> or just follow dholbach's lead :)
18:36 < dholbach> 5 should probably be something with "areas without internet"
18:36 < dholbach> unfortunately we never figured out what we want to do there :)
18:36 < andylockran> dholbach: regarding point 4 - do you think it's best to have those methods of communication kept within the ubuntu framework (i.e. wiki, blog, planet .etc)
                     what other ubuntu projects already do.. or do you think we need to adjust and have some kind of NGO outreach plan.
18:36 < andylockran> dholbach: areas without internet.. I've come across just that project :)
18:36 < Pendulum> something about helping NGOs who want to incorporate free software to begin?
18:36 < czajkowski> well if ngos could use launchpad to track issues I'd like to see that
18:37 < skellat> andylockran: Since the Ubuntu realm is different from that occupied by NGOs, I'd say liaison links would be needed at least to start
18:37 < andylockran> should I go into it now, or create a wiki citing the scenario
18:37 < dholbach> andylockran: up until now czajkowski and xdatap01 (or whatever Paolo's nick is) worked on NGO stories, where they did a great job of interviewing NGOs using
                  Ubuntu
18:37 < highvoltage> dholbach: we had some ideas last time round, I just didn't even have a moment the last 6 months to really do anything about it
18:37 < dholbach> czajkowski: yes
18:37 < andylockran> yeah, I really like the interview stuff
18:37 < czajkowski> andylockran: need to get to yours before UDS
18:37 < czajkowski> need time and no irc distractions
18:38 < andylockran> so is it a case of continuing them, and making it more sustainable by using other volunteers to help czajkowski out.
18:38 < andylockran> czajkowski: sure.
18:38 < czajkowski> well actually I need ngos to interview
18:38 < dholbach> I guess we're all open to new suggestions
18:38 < czajkowski> even if they dont use ubuntu but use oss we want to hear about it
18:38 < dholbach> but for the future I think it's good if we have sort-of-owners for projects :)
18:38 < andylockran> czajkowski: do they even need to be using OSS ?
18:39 < czajkowski> andylockran: well yes as I want to then show ngos who dont how they can
18:39 < skellat> andylockran: It would useful to know why they DON'T use it...we might never have seen the reasons otherwise
18:39 < czajkowski> and yes there are issues
18:39 < Pendulum> czajkowski: have you interviewed my mate? (have to admit I'm behind on reading your interviews)
18:39 < czajkowski> skellat: I also list the issues they find
18:39 < czajkowski> server documetnation
18:39 < czajkowski> accounting
18:39 < czajkowski> quickbooks
18:39 < czajkowski> change over from system, training, etc
18:40 < czajkowski> have all been documented and dinda was very helpful with training advice
18:40 < andylockran> yeah, the interviews were an eye opener for me
18:40 < czajkowski> Pendulum: anna asked for advice on how to "Switch over" some of her systems
18:40 < czajkowski> so I'd love to interview her before she starts and then afterwards and see how she got on
18:40 < dholbach> maybe regarding the ngo related bugs we could use a bug tag, so we could keep track of them (without having to subscribe to the lot of them and spam the list)
18:40 < highvoltage> czajkowski: with the interviews, have you gotten an idea of the biggest problems that they face?
18:40 < Pendulum> czajkowski: I was just thinking that :)
18:40 < skellat> Excellent. The reason I threw in the bit on training was I thought I saw something Martin Pitts was working on that we would want to ensure we weren't at
                 cross-purposes on relative to training.
18:41 < andylockran> highvoltage: see 18:39
18:41 < czajkowski> tonight I will copy all of the NGO interviews on my blog over to the NGO
18:41 < czajkowski> to have them in one place, but you'll see from the comments on mine there are issues www.lczajkowski.com
18:42 < andylockran> seems like we're making progress on the direction we want to go in, and the means in which we expect to acheive that
18:42 < jdardon> czajkowski: i have worked on a couple of NGO's here in Guatemala. so if you need anything
18:42 < czajkowski> jdardon: yes! I'd like to talk to them :D
18:43 < czajkowski> I think with this meeting wwhich is why I wanted it before UDS together with the blueprint we cn work on a road map for the team
18:43 < andylockran> I guess the next phase is consolidating that, and having a pitch for UDS, which is essentially going to be.. if you're an NGO, we need to talk with you.. we
                     need to know what you like and don't like about what you currently use, and here's what we can offer now.
18:43 < czajkowski> and in the next 6 months really make some progress
18:43 < czajkowski> jdardon: if you want you can email me details czajkowski@ubuntu.com
18:44 < skellat> A question then arises: How ambitious do we want to be during the cycle from K to L?
18:44 < Pendulum> czajkowski: if you end up getting overloaded with NGOs and need someone else to interview as well, I'd be happy to help out :)
18:44 < jdardon> czajkowski: ok, im thinking , if you passed me the questions, I can contact them and gather all the info for you
18:44 < czajkowski> skellat: I like projects, and this is my main one at present so I'm just jumping in and finding stuff to do :D
18:44 < dholbach> skellat: as I said before, I think we should try having owners of projects within the team for this cycle :)
18:44 < czajkowski> Pendulum: yes tghat would be awesome!!!!!
18:44 < czajkowski> dholbach: great idea
18:45 < czajkowski> jdardon: great can you just email me a blank email so I can reply please
18:45 < dholbach> who should at least be responsible to keep track of what's happening and inviting others in to help with small tasks within that project
18:45 < czajkowski> nods
18:45 < andylockran> skellat: I think the ambition is to get some established NGOs looking at alternative software, and being the guides helping them through.
18:46 < jdardon> czajkowski: done it
18:46 < skellat> andylockran: Ah. My main worry was just to ensure any goals we set are realistic within the time we've got. That's all.
18:46 < andylockran> I guess there are already commercial entities doing migrations, on behalf of some NGOs - and we need to somehow try and integrate those too, without
                     compromising the profitable nature for the consulting company.
18:47 < czajkowski> skellat: I think this next 6 months we;ll have a better guideline of where we want to be and achieve, the last 6 months were great, but we're new and can
                    expand and work on it
18:47 < andylockran> But yeah, the first step is finding out from NGOs what would benefit them, then trying to get that into ubuntu..
18:47 < czajkowski> nods
18:48 < andylockran> I'm in quite a nice place, being an ubuntu advocate in an NGO - but one problem I see is despite my enthusiasm, I was unable to volunteer our NGO for the
                     whole accounting sandbox that AlanBell was going to setup.
18:48 < czajkowski> why not?
18:49 < andylockran> the decision doesn't rest on me.
18:49 < andylockran> I asked to take on responsibility for the accounting and it was denied to me.
18:49 < czajkowski> well UI guess that could happen in any organisation
18:50 < andylockran> but that would have been a fantastic opportunity to use AlanBell's approach.
18:50 < czajkowski> nods
18:50 < czajkowski> I may blog that
18:50 < AlanBell> jurisdiction is important for accounting
18:50 < czajkowski> speak of the devil :p
18:51 < czajkowski> ha anyone got any furhter comments to make for the team at UDS
18:51 < czajkowski> dholbach: will mail once we have a confirmed date and time and tell you what room we're in so folks can join the channel for remote participation
18:51 < dholbach> with the announce of the sesion time, I'll add a call for more topics
18:51 < skellat> czajkowski: Set a deadline so that the slogan can debut in Texas?
18:52 < dholbach> I personally would try to leave a bit more time for responses, but I don't want to be a blocker on the decision
18:52 < andylockran> Yeah, so it's integral to our success that the top of the organisation sees the potential of such development... however, the hardest part is that much of the
                     inconvenience and time will be spent by a few for the benefit of the many. Whilst that's something I love (being an OSS advocate), I can also understand from
                     a traditional charity accountant perspective why investing such time isn't necessarily beneficial directly to the charity.
18:52 < highvoltage> czajkowski: I think it's great that so many people are interested in ubuntu-ngo, besides that I've been too sleep-deprived the last two weeks to be able to
                     add something incredibly constructive :)
18:52 < skellat> dholbach: I'll go with that.
18:52 < jdardon> czajkowski: what im seeing , is the need of a diagnostic of IT on NGO's, we can work on it, then execute on several NGO's and have a better vision of the actual
                 needs
18:53 < dholbach> highvoltage: we have 100 people in the LP team now
18:54 < czajkowski> skellat: so blog post today and debut slogan ont he day of the UDS meeting????
18:54 < highvoltage> dholbach: nice :)
18:54 < andylockran> kewl.. next item :)
18:55 < czajkowski> also re last meeting was "kutukepik: how to write the wiki for ngo area " done???
18:55 < czajkowski> or am I going blind as a bat ?
18:55 < andylockran> I'm guessing kutukepik ain't here :)
18:55 < skellat> czajkowski: Good point. I mixed up my dates.
18:56 < czajkowski> ok so to recap
18:56 < mhall119|work> what accounting stuff are you guys talking about?
18:56 < Pendulum> czajkowski: there does seem to be a wiki for the NGO team so I assume it's at least partially done
18:56 < czajkowski> dholbach: will find out date and time
18:56 < dholbach> yep
18:56 < czajkowski> andylockran: and Pendulum will work on What we do for the wiki
18:56 < czajkowski> I'll blog post and find us a slogan
18:56 < czajkowski> jdardon: is going to mail me so we can get the interviews back up and running
18:56 < czajkowski> I'm to poke andylockran re interview
18:57 < czajkowski> Pendulum: aye
18:57 < dholbach> nice
18:57 < czajkowski> have I missed anyting?
18:57 < andylockran> sounds good
18:57 < dholbach> that sounds like a great start
18:57 < czajkowski> doing the mins also at present
18:57 < czajkowski> if anyone has any furhter thoughts re UDS please do let us know!
18:58 < dholbach> I'm glad all you guys are part of this
18:58 < andylockran> only comment I'd make is that the functional ROI of a questionnaire and a phone'd interview are pretty much similar
18:58 < czajkowski> andylockran: eh?
18:58 < andylockran> however, it's integral that we do the phone /live interviews to be able to react to what the people are saying, and build a relationship
18:59 < czajkowski> ahhh ok
18:59 < andylockran> sorry, should explain my train of thought.
18:59 < czajkowski> Right if that's it folks, thanks for coming and I'll post this to the mailing list once I've it written up!!
18:59 < czajkowski> Kudos for taking part!!
18:59 * dholbach hugs y'all
18:59 < dholbach> thanks czajkowski!
18:59 < dholbach> thanks all!
18:59 < czajkowski> dholbach: you're already speaking texas! :)

Contents:

Agenda

  • # Standing agenda items:
    • Review action items.
    • Update our team report.
    • UDS - Blueprints?
    # Who are we: Need a simple, easily translatable slogan to explain to others within the community who we are and why we do what we do. Ideas? Is there really understanding of what the NGO team does outside the NGO team? # From Karmic to Lucid: What are NGO-specific papercuts that we can identify for action this cycle? # Stakeholder profiles: Any way to easily consolidate NGO interviews done so far and identify what other NGO types should be interviewed? Is there any way to accommodate a broader tranche of collaborators by having such available in a collected, printer-friendly form? # Training: What tools could be deployed in conjunction with other teams to make training within NGOs as painless as possible? What other efforts are underway by other teams that we should collaborate in the development of? # Advocacy: What are Ubuntu-NGO advocating? Clearly define Ubuntu-NGO's role as a means of networking NGOs, rather than a hub-spoke relationship with Ubuntu-NGO, keeping the NGOs separate.

Summary

  • andylockran and Pendulum: To work on What we do for the wiki and help make it clearer
  • dholbach: to find out what date and time the session at UDS will take place and mail the list with how to participate remotely.
  • czajkowski: To blog post and find us a slogan
  • jdardon: is going to mail czajkowski so we can get the interviews back up and running
  • czajkowski: continue NGO interview series starting with andylockran

Minute

18:02 < dholbach> who wants to drive the meeting?
18:02 < czajkowski> I can if you like ?
18:02 -!- Topic for #ubuntu-ngo: What is Ubuntu-NGO, ROOT is here | http://daniel.holba.ch/blog/?p=422 | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO |Join https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ngo | IRC 
          Meeting Wednesday 11th November 18:00 UTC https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO/Meeting | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-ngo
18:02 -!- Topic set by czajkowski [n=cypher@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.czajkowski] [Tue Nov 10 10:27:45 2009]
18:02 < dholbach> sure
18:02  * AlanBell pours the wine
18:03 < dholbach> sounds like we're all in a good mood :)
18:03 < dholbach> who's all here for the meeting?
18:03  * highvoltage 
18:03  * czajkowski 
18:03  * AlanBell 
18:03  * Pendulum 
18:03  * skellat fumbles with IRC client
18:03  * andylockran 
18:04 < czajkowski> well we can post mins to the list and on the wiki afterwards 
18:04 < czajkowski> I know with timezones its hard to be here 
18:04 < czajkowski> so this evenings/afternoon/todays agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO/Meeting
18:04 < andylockran> :)
18:05 < czajkowski> so * Review action items 
18:05 < highvoltage> w/win move 4
18:05 < czajkowski> I note from the mailing list there has been a lotta discussion on packaging CiviCRM and bugs
18:06 < czajkowski> anyone care to discuss the actions items
18:06 < dholbach> yes, we were able to clear a few licensing issues with upstreams of a couple of php modules
18:06 < dholbach> so that should make it easier for us to get them into debian and ubuntu
18:06 < czajkowski> I know my interview series went down wel and I plan on talking to andylockran soon about his project
18:06 < dholbach> there's still some way to go, but I hope I can discuss a few ideas with asomething at UDS
18:07 < czajkowski> good stuff
18:07 < dholbach> and we can move over to testing the civicrm packages (and pester upstream with issues :-))
18:07 < dholbach> we have like 2 or 3 civicrm upstreams on the ngo team list now
18:07 < dholbach> which is great
18:07 < dholbach> czajkowski: your interviews were great :)
18:07 < czajkowski> I intend to find out more about that seeing as tbh I'm rather i the dark there about it 
18:07  * dholbach does not have more to report on action items
18:08 < czajkowski> * UDS - Blueprints 
18:08 < czajkowski>   Andrew Starr-Bochicchio  created one https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-ngo
18:08 < czajkowski> and I hope we can build on it 
18:09 < dholbach> did Mr Bacon schedule it?
18:09 < dholbach> also we should announce on the list when that session is going to be, so we get maximum remote participation
18:09 < czajkowski> dholbach: think so... he said he was doing it earlier on in the channel 
18:09 < czajkowski> nods 
18:09 < czajkowski> adn then go find the server team
18:09 < dholbach> ACTION: Daniel to send mail with NGO UDS Session time and date
18:09 < czajkowski> as some of the issues coming up maybe they could help with 
18:10 < dholbach> definitely
18:10 < czajkowski> I was thinking of something along the lines of a papercut exercise 
18:10 < czajkowski> there isn't 100 of them 
18:10  * skellat scratches head and wonders if there is an initial whip count of who is attending UDS-L
18:10 < czajkowski> but some of the stuff we could work on that 
18:10  * czajkowski shall be attending UDS 
18:10  * andylockran won't be
18:10 < czajkowski> as is popey dholbach 
18:10 < czajkowski> and Paolo is also 
18:11 < dholbach> nice
18:11 < skellat> I've got a temp contract so I won't be leaving Ohio any time soon, alas
18:11 < dholbach> asomething too
18:11 < czajkowski> andylockran: you've added some thoughts on the Agenda here, would you like to discuss them and how we can work on them for UDS 
18:13 < czajkowski> so one of andylockran comments was From Karmic to Lucid: What are NGO-specific papercuts that we can identify for action this cycle? 
18:13 < dholbach> (also I'm sure we'll attract a bunch more future Ubuntu NGO team members at UDS :-))
18:13 < czajkowski> and I know jono and co are working on roadmaps 
18:13 < czajkowski> so I think it would be good to use this for us and possible give some structure to the group
18:13 < skellat> I forgot to sign a couple of those.  Advocacy was Andy's.  The others were mine.
18:14 < andylockran> czajkowski: yeah, my thoughts are with advocacy
18:14 < czajkowski> skellat: ahh thanks wasn't sure 
18:14 < andylockran> and how to shape it as NGO
18:14 < czajkowski> skellat: well fire away and discuss so 
18:15 < skellat> As noted on the agenda, a few things might help in the work.  First is a slogan (one sentence) that sums up what Ubuntu NGO does so others understand.  Second is 
                 collecting the interviews into an offline-friendly form so people can read them.  I'
18:15 < skellat> I'm 28 and have trouble curling up to read e-material lately while books still work nicely.
18:16 < skellat> It may be just me but interview collections are easier to read in print than on-screen.
18:16 < czajkowski> skellat: any idea as to what the slogan could be ? nice idea 
18:16 < skellat> Ubuntu NGO: Helping Integrate Freedom
18:16 < highvoltage> that sounds a bit cliche imho, but I can't think of something better right now so I won't judge :)
18:17 < AlanBell> I think it might include the word "charity" "volunteer" or "third sector" as I had to google to find out what an NGO was
18:17 < czajkowski> well yes in USA NGO doesnt exist, they are non profits 
18:17 < Pendulum> voluteer is the best of those 3 words IMO
18:17 < dholbach> Ubuntu NGO Team, helping others to help.
18:17 < czajkowski> and in euope they are mostly ngos
18:17 < skellat> The reason I went with integrating freedom in the initial was that NGOs are freedom crusaders at times themselves and we spread the idea of software freedom.
18:18 < Pendulum> Ubuntu NGO: Helping Your Charity Donations Go Towards What's Really Needed ?
18:18 < highvoltage> dholbach: that's quite nice
18:18 < jdardon> in latam ngo is not always charity or donations is more like social consultants
18:19 < dholbach_> if only I had had some of AlanBell's wine, I'd be a bit more creative :)
18:19 < jdardon> execution of social projects, development in poor areas etc..
18:19  * AlanBell passes dholbach_ a glass
18:19 -!- dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
18:20 < skellat> As I intended placing this on the agenda, it makes it easier for others to understand us if we had a slogan they can start with.  It also helps show how we 
                 understand what we are doing ourselves.
18:20 < andylockran> I think my advocacy bit fits in here - in that Ubuntu NGO is inheritently different from ubuntu advocacy.
18:20 < czajkowski> true as I just had a nice pm saying  that they have looked at the site and were a bit confused as to the role of us, so a slogan and an explaination would help 
18:21 < skellat> andylockran: Agreed.  I was going to edit the page to move the items closer.
18:21 < andylockran> I think we're reactive and providing a voice to the ubuntu community for NGOs, rather than providing a voice from teh ubuntu community to NGOs
18:21 < andylockran> if you get my drift?
18:21 < czajkowski> andylockran: I like it 
18:22 < highvoltage> heh, anything I can think of sounds too lame to me (probably because I've seen so many ngo catch phrases and slogans before)
18:22 < Pendulum> andylockran: I think that makes a lot of sense
18:22 < skellat> Ubuntu NGO: Taking Software Freedom From Theory To Practice
18:23 < dholbach> maybe we can do a call for slogans via our blog? :)
18:23 < Pendulum> skellat: I like that a lot, actually
18:23 < highvoltage> that's not very ngo-specific though, the same could be said for commercial deployments (not that I want to nitpic)
18:23  * dholbach has been in naming/slogan meetings a lot already :)
18:23 < czajkowski> highvoltage: never :p
18:23 < czajkowski> skellat: nice 
18:23 < dholbach> if you want to continue brainstorming that's totally cool with me though :)
18:24 < skellat> highvoltage: Don't worry.  I'm just throwing ideas out.
18:24 < Pendulum> what about taking "software" out of it?
18:24 < Pendulum> so it's Ubuntu NGO: Taking Freedom From Theory To Practice
18:24 < highvoltage> I guess a description would already help a lot, but a nice slogan would be very cool for the elevator-type people who casually notices it somewhere
18:24 < skellat> Pendulum: That comes down to a question of what we do.  Do we do service projects or do we tinker with software bits on the back-end.
18:25 < jdardon>  we should start making a list of words that are related to the term NGO and part from there ?
18:25 < czajkowski> skellat: I think removeing software makes it more open and welcoming to get folks invovled 
18:25 < issyl0> Hi all
18:25 < dholbach> hi issyl0
18:26 < skellat> czajkowski: That's fine, but we're working under the aegis of what is a software project.
18:26 < czajkowski> true 
18:26 < highvoltage> lately I've noticed some people dismissing things as fundamentalist when you use terms like "freedom" or "free software" in slogans, etc.
18:26 < czajkowski> perhaps we should write these up on the blog and ask the mailing list/planet to help suggest a slogan ?
18:27 < highvoltage> (nm, forget I said that even)
18:27 < skellat> czajkowski: Agreed
18:27 < highvoltage> czajkowski: wider input would be nice
18:27 < dholbach> and discuss at the next meeting
18:27 < dholbach> that'd give us enough time for everything
18:27 < skellat> highvoltage: Actually...you raise a rather good point.  I haven't figured out where the whole "fundamentalist" meme started but that would like to a Princess 
                 Bride quote...
18:27 < dholbach> re-blogging and re-microblogging the call for ideas would be nice
18:27 < Pendulum> Maybe come up with a good description before we ask for slogans?
18:28 < dholbach> of what the team is about?
18:28 < andylockran> sorry, reboot
18:28 < czajkowski> Pendulum: issyl0 you're both new, what are your 1st impressions of the ngo group, 
18:28 < Pendulum> (especially if we're asking for outside help)
18:28 < Pendulum> yeah
18:28 < czajkowski> what it does or meant to do ?
18:28 < issyl0> I saw czajkowski's tweet about the meeting and didn't know what the ubuntu NGO was, so I looked it up, and found the website was very confusing and didn't explain 
                clearly enough what the NGO team.  Maybe simple.wp.org/wiki/NGO would have helped, instead of the longwinded enwp one... and I did read all the pages on the site, 
                so re: the agenda question is there really understanding of what the ngo team does outside the ng
18:29 < skellat> Well, list the activities we're carrying out so far.  We do packaging.  We're slowly starting to look for NGO-specific papercuts.  What else do we do?
18:29 < Pendulum> czajkowski: I'm not a good person to ask because my knowledge comes directly from you and not from the site. Mostly came along because NGOs and philosophies I 
                  picked up while active in those are a lot of why I'm interested in Ubuntu :)
18:30 < czajkowski> we are a resource lately for ngos to ask for help and advice 
18:30 < issyl0> Er.. first impressions of the group.. confusing, didn't really (and still don't) understand what it's about :)
18:30 < andylockran> I think that's fair, given that the group is still very much in development
18:30 < jdardon> help NGO's to cut the digital breach ??
18:31 < issyl0> andylockran, ah right
18:31 < dholbach> "The aim of the Ubuntu NGO team is to make it as easy as possible to make use of Ubuntu in charities, non-profits and NGOs and benefit from the best free 
                  software has to offer." or something?
18:31 < dholbach> I'm sure that 3-4 sentences should be fine :)
18:31 < andylockran> The main role so far has been packaging software that has been cited by NGO affiliates.
18:31 < czajkowski> dholbach: yes thats much simplier and easier to understant 
18:31 < Pendulum> That's a good first sentence
18:31 < czajkowski> *understand 
18:31 < skellat> dholbach: That works.
18:31 < issyl0> dholbach, yeah that's good. :)
18:31 < andylockran> yeah, I like that
18:31 < dholbach> that took all my remaining brain power
18:31 < dholbach> thanks guys :)
18:32 < issyl0> Hehe
18:32 < jdardon> ;)
18:32 < Pendulum> a couple sentences fleshing out how we do it is probably what's needed to flesh it out to a proper description
18:32 < skellat> dholbach: Better now than on a stage somewhere in front of people having to think that up
18:32 < andylockran> Yeah, I reckon that needs a wiki :)
18:32  * andylockran would volunteer but currently in CLI mode
18:33 < dholbach> ok, who's going to work on that "call for slogans" blog post?
18:33  * skellat could do so later today
18:33 < czajkowski> who would like to updat the wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO with what dholbach said and fleshing it out with what we do, in a nice easy to read manner?
18:33 < czajkowski> I'll do the call for slogans post this evneing on the NGO blog 
18:33  * skellat could combine such with the other writing bit
18:33 < dholbach> that would also get back some action on http://ubuntungo.wordpress.com/ :-)
18:33 < Pendulum> If someone gives me bullet points other than "we make pachages", I can do it this evening :)
18:33 < andylockran> czajkowski: I'll flesh it out if someone can stick the first bit up :)
18:34 < czajkowski> Pendulum: andylockran can ye work to flesh it out so ?
18:34 < czajkowski> please 
18:34 < czajkowski> and I'll send ye cookies!!
18:34 < highvoltage> dholbach: that kind of fits in with the usual ubuntu project definitions as well :)
18:34 < czajkowski> andylockran: in you case I'll send you a working lock 
18:34 < andylockran> hehe, no worries :)
18:34 < issyl0> Heh
18:34 < andylockran> Pendulum: sounds good.
18:34 < dholbach> Pendulum: we're interested in 1) documenting free software best-practices for NGOs, 2) making offline media easier, 3) packaging NGO-specific apps, 4) talk about 
                  how NGOs using Ubuntu make the world better, 5) ... ?
18:34 < czajkowski> dholbach: I'll update the ngo blog 
18:34 < andylockran> Pendulum: you put up some ideas and I'll develop them in the morning.
18:35 < andylockran> or just follow dholbach's lead :)
18:36 < dholbach> 5 should probably be something with "areas without internet"
18:36 < dholbach> unfortunately we never figured out what we want to do there :)
18:36 < andylockran> dholbach: regarding point 4 - do you think it's best to have those methods of communication kept within the ubuntu framework (i.e. wiki, blog, planet .etc) 
                     what other ubuntu projects already do.. or do you think we need to adjust and have some kind of NGO outreach plan.
18:36 < andylockran> dholbach: areas without internet.. I've come across just that project :)
18:36 < Pendulum> something about helping NGOs who want to incorporate free software to begin?
18:36 < czajkowski> well if ngos could use launchpad to track issues I'd like to see that 
18:37 < skellat> andylockran: Since the Ubuntu realm is different from that occupied by NGOs, I'd say liaison links would be needed at least to start
18:37 < andylockran> should I go into it now, or create a wiki citing the scenario
18:37 < dholbach> andylockran: up until now czajkowski and xdatap01 (or whatever Paolo's nick is) worked on NGO stories, where they did a great job of interviewing NGOs using 
                  Ubuntu
18:37 < highvoltage> dholbach: we had some ideas last time round, I just didn't even have a moment the last 6 months to really do anything about it
18:37 < dholbach> czajkowski: yes
18:37 < andylockran> yeah, I really like the interview stuff
18:37 < czajkowski> andylockran: need to get to yours before UDS 
18:37 < czajkowski> need time and no irc distractions 
18:38 < andylockran> so is it a case of continuing them, and making it more sustainable by using other volunteers to help czajkowski out.
18:38 < andylockran> czajkowski: sure.
18:38 < czajkowski> well actually I need ngos to interview 
18:38 < dholbach> I guess we're all open to new suggestions
18:38 < czajkowski> even if they dont use ubuntu but use oss we want to hear about it 
18:38 < dholbach> but for the future I think it's good if we have sort-of-owners for projects :)
18:38 < andylockran> czajkowski: do they even need to be using OSS ?
18:39 < czajkowski> andylockran: well yes as I want to then show ngos who dont how they can 
18:39 < skellat> andylockran: It would useful to know why they DON'T use it...we might never have seen the reasons otherwise
18:39 < czajkowski> and yes there are issues 
18:39 < Pendulum> czajkowski: have you interviewed my mate? (have to admit I'm behind on reading your interviews)
18:39 < czajkowski> skellat: I also list the issues they find 
18:39 < czajkowski> server documetnation
18:39 < czajkowski> accounting 
18:39 < czajkowski> quickbooks 
18:39 < czajkowski> change over from system, training, etc 
18:40 < czajkowski> have all been documented and dinda was very helpful with training advice 
18:40 < andylockran> yeah, the interviews were an eye opener for me
18:40 < czajkowski> Pendulum: anna asked for advice on how to "Switch over" some of her systems 
18:40 < czajkowski> so I'd love to interview her before she starts and then afterwards and see how she got on 
18:40 < dholbach> maybe regarding the ngo related bugs we could use a bug tag, so we could keep track of them (without having to subscribe to the lot of them and spam the list)
18:40 < highvoltage> czajkowski: with the interviews, have you gotten an idea of the biggest problems that they face?
18:40 < Pendulum> czajkowski: I was just thinking that :)
18:40 < skellat> Excellent.  The reason I threw in the bit on training was I thought I saw something Martin Pitts was working on that we would want to ensure we weren't at 
                 cross-purposes on relative to training.
18:41 < andylockran> highvoltage: see 18:39
18:41 < czajkowski> tonight I will copy all of the NGO interviews on my blog over to the NGO 
18:41 < czajkowski> to have them in one place, but you'll see from the comments on mine there are issues www.lczajkowski.com
18:42 < andylockran> seems like we're making progress on the direction we want to go in, and the means in which we expect to acheive that
18:42 < jdardon> czajkowski: i have worked on a couple of NGO's here in Guatemala. so if you need anything
18:42 < czajkowski> jdardon: yes! I'd like to talk to them :D 
18:43 < czajkowski> I think with this meeting wwhich is why I wanted it before UDS together with the blueprint we cn work on a road map for the team
18:43 < andylockran> I guess the next phase is consolidating that, and having a pitch for UDS, which is essentially going to be.. if you're an NGO, we need to talk with you.. we 
                     need to know what you like and don't like about what you currently use, and here's what we can offer now.
18:43 < czajkowski> and in the next 6 months really make some progress
18:43 < czajkowski> jdardon: if you want you can email me details czajkowski@ubuntu.com 
18:44 < skellat> A question then arises: How ambitious do we want to be during the cycle from K to L?
18:44 < Pendulum> czajkowski: if you end up getting overloaded with NGOs and need someone else to interview as well, I'd be happy to help out :)
18:44 < jdardon> czajkowski: ok, im thinking , if you passed me the questions, I can contact them and gather all the info for you
18:44 < czajkowski> skellat: I like projects, and this is my main one at present so I'm just jumping in and finding stuff to do :D 
18:44 < dholbach> skellat: as I said before, I think we should try having owners of projects within the team for this cycle :)
18:44 < czajkowski> Pendulum: yes tghat would be awesome!!!!!
18:44 < czajkowski> dholbach: great idea 
18:45 < czajkowski> jdardon: great can you just email me a blank email so I can reply please 
18:45 < dholbach> who should at least be responsible to keep track of what's happening and inviting others in to help with small tasks within that project
18:45 < czajkowski> nods 
18:45 < andylockran> skellat: I think the ambition is to get some established NGOs looking at alternative software, and being the guides helping them through.
18:46 < jdardon> czajkowski: done it
18:46 < skellat> andylockran: Ah.  My main worry was just to ensure any goals we set are realistic within the time we've got.  That's all.
18:46 < andylockran> I guess there are already commercial entities doing migrations, on behalf of some NGOs - and we need to somehow try and integrate those too, without 
                     compromising the profitable nature for the consulting company.
18:47 < czajkowski> skellat: I think this next 6 months we;ll have a better guideline of where we want to be and achieve, the last 6 months were great, but we're new and can 
                    expand and work on it 
18:47 < andylockran> But yeah, the first step is finding out from NGOs what would benefit them, then trying to get that into ubuntu..
18:47 < czajkowski> nods 
18:48 < andylockran> I'm in quite a nice place, being an ubuntu advocate in an NGO - but one problem I see is despite my enthusiasm, I was unable to volunteer our NGO for the 
                     whole accounting sandbox that AlanBell was going to setup.
18:48 < czajkowski> why not?
18:49 < andylockran> the decision doesn't rest on me.
18:49 < andylockran> I asked to take on responsibility for the accounting and it was denied to me.
18:49 < czajkowski> well UI guess that could happen in any organisation 
18:50 < andylockran> but that would have been a fantastic opportunity to use AlanBell's approach.
18:50 < czajkowski> nods 
18:50 < czajkowski> I may blog that 
18:50 < AlanBell> jurisdiction is important for accounting
18:50 < czajkowski> speak of the devil :p
18:51 < czajkowski> ha anyone got any furhter comments to make for the team at UDS 
18:51 < czajkowski> dholbach: will mail once we have a confirmed date and time and tell you what room we're in so folks can join the channel for remote participation 
18:51 < dholbach> with the announce of the sesion time, I'll add a call for more topics
18:51 < skellat> czajkowski: Set a deadline so that the slogan can debut in Texas?
18:52 < dholbach> I personally would try to leave a bit more time for responses, but I don't want to be a blocker on the decision
18:52 < andylockran> Yeah, so it's integral to our success that the top of the organisation sees the potential of such development... however, the hardest part is that much of the 
                     inconvenience and time will be spent by a few for the benefit of the many.  Whilst that's something I love (being an OSS advocate), I can also understand from 
                     a traditional charity accountant perspective why investing such time isn't necessarily beneficial directly to the charity.
18:52 < highvoltage> czajkowski: I think it's great that so many people are interested in ubuntu-ngo, besides that I've been too sleep-deprived the last two weeks to be able to 
                     add something incredibly constructive :)
18:52 < skellat> dholbach: I'll go with that.
18:52 < jdardon> czajkowski: what im seeing , is the need of a diagnostic of IT on NGO's, we can work on it, then execute on several NGO's and have a better vision of the actual 
                 needs
18:53 < dholbach> highvoltage: we have 100 people in the LP team now
18:54 < czajkowski> skellat: so blog post today and debut slogan ont he day of the UDS meeting????
18:54 < highvoltage> dholbach: nice :)
18:54 < andylockran> kewl.. next item :)
18:55 < czajkowski> also re last meeting was "kutukepik:  how to write the wiki for ngo area "  done???
18:55 < czajkowski> or am I going blind as a bat ?
18:55 < andylockran> I'm guessing kutukepik ain't here :)
18:55 < skellat> czajkowski: Good point.  I mixed up my dates.
18:56 < czajkowski> ok so to recap 
18:56 < mhall119|work> what accounting stuff are you guys talking about?
18:56 < Pendulum> czajkowski: there does seem to be a wiki for the NGO team so I assume it's at least partially done
18:56 < czajkowski> dholbach: will find out date and time 
18:56 < dholbach> yep
18:56 < czajkowski> andylockran: and Pendulum will work on What we do for the wiki
18:56 < czajkowski> I'll blog post and find us a slogan 
18:56 < czajkowski> jdardon: is going to mail me so we can get the interviews back up and running 
18:56 < czajkowski> I'm to poke andylockran re interview 
18:57 < czajkowski> Pendulum: aye 
18:57 < dholbach> nice
18:57 < czajkowski> have I missed anyting?
18:57 < andylockran> sounds good
18:57 < dholbach> that sounds like a great start
18:57 < czajkowski> doing the mins also at present 
18:57 < czajkowski> if anyone has any furhter thoughts re UDS please do let us know!
18:58 < dholbach> I'm glad all you guys are part of this
18:58 < andylockran> only comment I'd make is that the functional ROI of a questionnaire and a phone'd interview are pretty much similar
18:58 < czajkowski> andylockran: eh?
18:58 < andylockran> however, it's integral that we do the phone /live interviews to be able to react to what the people are saying, and build a relationship
18:59 < czajkowski> ahhh ok
18:59 < andylockran> sorry, should explain my train of thought.
18:59 < czajkowski> Right if that's it folks, thanks for coming and I'll post this to the mailing list once I've it written up!! 
18:59 < czajkowski> Kudos for taking part!! 
18:59  * dholbach hugs y'all
18:59 < dholbach> thanks czajkowski!
18:59 < dholbach> thanks all!
18:59 < czajkowski> dholbach: you're already speaking texas! :)

NGO/Meeting/20091111 (last edited 2009-11-11 19:14:06 by 84-203-79-182)