2011-02-10

Meeting started by DanteAshton at 19:59:50 UTC. The full logs are available at http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/wintermute/2011/wintermute.2011-02-10-19.59.log.html .

Meeting summary

Meeting ended at 22:19:59 UTC.

Votes

Action items

  • Re-use previously existing projects related to AI
  • Begin layout of S.I.I
  • Psych team meeting for Wednesday 6 PM UTC

People present (lines said)

  • DanteAshton (300)

  • Tahakki (190)
  • Artir (159)
  • JackyAlcine (117)

  • UndiFineD (65)
  • abbax (47)
  • Omega (38)
  • dsnettleton (36)
  • Ilidur (22)
  • phillw (17)
  • JaggedJax (13)

  • pindonga (7)
  • meetingology (7)
  • DragonEyes (2)

  • paultag (1)
  • test (1)
  • igii (1)
  • jamiedmattingly (1)

Full Log

 19:59:50 <DanteAshton> #startmeeting
 19:59:50 <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb 10 19:59:50 2011 UTC.  The chair is DanteAshton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
 19:59:50 <meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
 19:59:59 <DanteAshton> Hello, dears :-)
 20:00:10 <jamiedmattingly> guess that answers my question hello all
 20:00:29 <DanteAshton> I call to order (of whatever sort of order you want) of our first meeting about Wintermute
 20:00:56 <DanteAshton> Right, we havent got a traditional agenda tonight, so we're going to hot-spot it
 20:01:07 <DanteAshton> first off *calls up document*
 20:01:43 <DanteAshton> Ahh yes, Wintermute's capabilites.
 20:02:01 <DanteAshton> Wintermute is what is known as a Class 5 human interaction system
 20:02:56 <pindonga> hi all
 20:03:19 <UndiFineD> o/
 20:03:20 <DanteAshton> it relies upon a series of modules, which should, if my design is right (and I've no reason to think it isn't) allow it to deduct context from conversation
 20:03:28 <DanteAshton> Now, darlings, what do you think that would allow it to do?
 20:03:57 * DanteAshton wishes JackyAlcine hadn't run off so early, as his fingers hurt already -_-
 20:04:14 <igii> :D
 20:04:31 <DanteAshton> Go on, take a guess...
 20:04:44 <Artir> .. accurately parse natural language..
 20:04:53 <abbax> communicate?
 20:05:04 <DanteAshton> Gold stars for both of you :-)
 20:05:11 <abbax> yay!
 20:05:17 <Artir> nice :P
 20:05:32 <DanteAshton> If it can deduct context behind conversation, it is capable of so much...
 20:06:06 <DanteAshton> Jacky is working on a system known as Panlingua, which should, if the theory is correct, be able to translate between multiple langauges flawlessly.
 20:06:42 <DanteAshton> Thus, providing a bridge between language, and thus; closing the gap between communities
 20:07:03 <dsnettleton> I expect context will be an important part of that as well.
 20:07:16 <DanteAshton> Context is THE most important part
 20:07:21 <JaggedJax> General details on how it gets around differing sentence structures in different languages?
 20:07:49 <DanteAshton> JaggedJax: We're looking into building a hard-coded module to apply that
 20:08:14 <DanteAshton> The design basically means Wintermute can understand a concept in one langauge, and can put that concept into another
 20:08:14 <UndiFineD> DanteAshton: my playing code found that having several small clusters of neurons operate better than one big field of ~7000 x 100.000
 20:08:37 <DanteAshton> rather then standard machine translation, which alters words whilst loosing meaning
 20:09:01 <UndiFineD> this would actually simulate real live where you have knobs of dense structure
 20:09:26 <DanteAshton> You'll also find, UndiFineD, that a human being who gets up, goes to work, types on his computer, then comes home and gets to sleep does not need the 100 billion neurons to do that :P
 20:09:41 <UndiFineD> yup
 20:10:04 <DanteAshton> The smaller the amount of nodes in a network, then (depending upon it's role) the less effeciant it is at a task
 20:10:15 <abbax> I would agree, under certain conditions
 20:10:28 <abbax> with both of you
 20:10:31 <DanteAshton> :P
 20:10:32 <Artir> The smaller the amount of nodes?
 20:10:33 <JaggedJax> Unless the overhead of communication between the nodes is too high
 20:10:43 <dsnettleton> Exactly. Panlingua connects words to their underlying meanings. A translator would simply have to grab the underlying meaning and express it in whatever language it sees fit.
 20:10:51 <Artir> I would say that If a task can be accomplished with X nodes rather than Y, then system X is more efficient.
 20:10:57 <Artir> x<y
 20:11:27 <DanteAshton> There is an upper limit with networks in regard to overhead and 'noise', but lowering the number of nodes can reduce how effectivly it can deal with a task
 20:11:30 <DanteAshton> Now...
 20:11:52 <DanteAshton> All of you should of pretty much figured out that Wintermute is just a 'bit' more complex then a music player
 20:11:59 <dsnettleton> lol
 20:12:08 <JaggedJax> Well, I'm out :P
 20:12:10 <abbax> yes
 20:12:35 <DanteAshton> I will not put you any illusions...this is a HELL of a project we're undertaking, but the results are literally Nobel Peace Price/Turing Award worthy
 20:13:09 <dsnettleton> As long as it doesn't wind up being the Hugo award instead.
 20:13:24 <abbax> could we buy a volcno island for a lair with the money?
 20:13:37 <Artir> Nobel Peace Prize lost its reputation since it was awarded to Obame, :P
 20:13:38 <Omega> I don't think anyone is doing this for money.
 20:13:40 <Artir> *a
 20:13:41 <DanteAshton> Not only does this project call upon virtually every field you can think of...it also requires some new fields to be created
 20:14:19 <Omega> I've always wanted to create a mathematical model of the brain :>
 20:14:32 <JaggedJax> We're saving meeting logs right?
 20:14:32 <DanteAshton> Now, we've all got jobs to do here; and some of you have expressed confusion over the team structure
 20:14:33 <test> Yeah, pretty hard... but I think possible :)
 20:14:41 <DanteAshton> yes, meetingology is running
 20:15:07 <DanteAshton> So, let me explain it to you
 20:15:15 <abbax> this should be fun for posterity
 20:15:28 <DanteAshton> https://launchpad.net/~wintermute-devel is the development team
 20:15:49 <DanteAshton> you should be there if your a programmer for the Wintermute project
 20:16:04 <DanteAshton> https://launchpad.net/~wintermute-psych is the psych team
 20:16:42 <DanteAshton> you should be there if you have a mind worthy of taking on the psychological problems present with Wintermute
 20:17:08 <dsnettleton> Make sure to teach it the three laws.
 20:17:12 <DanteAshton> everyone should be part of https://launchpad.net/~uait
 20:17:12 <dsnettleton> :)
 20:17:31 <DanteAshton> If only because we dont run around trying to contact everyone...
 20:18:01 <DanteAshton> Now...where was I?
 20:18:05 <DanteAshton> :P
 20:18:09 <Artir> dsnettleton: and for completeness sake, the zeroth law :P
 20:18:26 <DanteAshton> Ahh yes
 20:18:31 <UndiFineD> there more than that ....
 20:18:35 <dsnettleton> Yes, but isn't that merely an infrerence from the other three?
 20:18:59 <JaggedJax> One would hope
 20:19:13 <DanteAshton> Now, people, as I said when we started this whole thing off; there are a lot of dead projects out there
 20:19:15 <Artir> dsnettleton: it is, but that way the don't have to reach it via logic. Consider it a computing time gift from us to the machine ;)
 20:19:17 <DanteAshton> We can use them
 20:19:47 <DanteAshton> So, for those whom have the time to do so, go out and try and identify projects to whom we can reuse
 20:20:25 <DanteAshton> Any questions so far?
 20:20:26 <Artir> I'll help with that
 20:20:46 <dsnettleton> Yes.
 20:20:53 <DanteAshton> Then ask, darling.
 20:21:08 <dsnettleton> It seems to me that reusing dead projects isn't nearly as important as figuring out why they failed.
 20:21:27 <Artir> good point you made there :P
 20:21:34 <DanteAshton> Most of them (that I've seen) failed because 1. Either they finished what they set out to do.
 20:21:35 <JaggedJax> Agreed, but most fail just due to lack of support
 20:21:49 <DanteAshton> 2. They lacked the drive to do what they wanted to do
 20:21:49 <abbax> and lack of interest
 20:22:06 <DanteAshton> or 3. They required high investments of time/money, and it could not be deilvered
 20:22:12 <JaggedJax> Still, we should be careful to avoid their pitfalls
 20:22:16 <JaggedJax> and learn from them
 20:22:34 <DanteAshton> The common element among them seems to be a sort of disjointed development structure
 20:22:41 <UndiFineD> 4. lack of enough capable people to keep it going
 20:22:42 <DanteAshton> Thus, this brings me onto the S.I.I
 20:23:15 <DanteAshton> The S.I.I will not only be looking into protecting Wintermute, and getting resources to help it grow
 20:23:27 <DanteAshton> but also to serve as a centrelized 'hub' of open-source AI tech
 20:23:39 <UndiFineD> I dont know who is / was on the opencog ML recently, and the issue of YKY who destroyed the ML basically
 20:24:07 <DanteAshton> So, we should go out and email all active projects, big or small, to be part of the S.I.I
 20:24:13 <Omega> S.I.I. stands for Synthetic Intellect Institute
 20:24:25 <pindonga> thx Omega was about to ask that :)
 20:24:29 <DanteAshton> So we can fuel them with developers and, hopefully, materials; time and money permitting
 20:24:56 <abbax> money you say? I thought this was volunteer powered
 20:25:02 <DanteAshton> It is
 20:25:07 <DanteAshton> but some things may not be
 20:25:17 <DanteAshton> IE: access to pre-built Ontolgy sets
 20:25:23 <abbax> so there's chances of funding?
 20:25:36 <DanteAshton> Or, indeed, getting hardware required to run Wintermute
 20:25:46 <Artir> let's try to email sabdfl :P
 20:25:56 <UndiFineD> not yet please
 20:25:59 <abbax> shouldn't we also focus on everything being open and free?
 20:26:00 <DanteAshton> None so far; though my hope is that when we get more code down, perhaps look for those interested in funding us
 20:26:12 <DanteAshton> I'd love everything to be open and free
 20:26:17 <DanteAshton> I really would.
 20:26:35 <abbax> you say that as if it's not a possibility
 20:26:38 <DanteAshton> but right now, we can look at everything being open and free and us finishing WIntermute in about 30 years
 20:26:56 <abbax> yay!
 20:26:59 <DanteAshton> Well, I'd need a very large team of people wanting to donate the next five years of their lives to this.
 20:26:59 <UndiFineD> abbax: life is not free, that is a reality
 20:27:15 <abbax> well, we're here
 20:27:15 <DanteAshton> Me thinks things would go faster if I had a way to pay them
 20:27:18 <JaggedJax> Staying open source and getting funding are not mutually exclusive though
 20:27:25 <DanteAshton> Also true
 20:27:27 <abbax> that's true
 20:27:34 <DanteAshton> that is another aspect of the S.I.I
 20:27:41 <Artir> If our tems gets large enogh, we ourselves can donate some cash to the project
 20:27:44 <Tahakki> Hey guys
 20:28:06 <DanteAshton> I am hoping that, when WIntermute is ready, we can sell it as a service for, say, news; as the ultimate anti-spam measure
 20:28:17 <DanteAshton> so, whilst staying F/OSS, we also make some money
 20:28:29 <DanteAshton> perhaps enough to get people on-board full-time
 20:28:32 <Tahakki> provided it can still be implemented into ubuntu...
 20:28:44 <Tahakki> i think it'd be a bad idea to fragment the project though
 20:28:52 <Tahakki> try and keep it together as much as possible
 20:29:06 <JackyAlcine> Greetings, everyone.
 20:29:07 <DanteAshton> Who said anything about fragmentation?
 20:29:14 <DanteAshton> Oh goody, your back.
 20:29:21 <Tahakki> nobody, just making sure:P
 20:29:27 <UndiFineD> Tahakki: nothing is fragmented, the devel and psy groups are there to specify an interest
 20:29:27 * JaggedJax points at Tahakki
 20:29:40 <JackyAlcine> JaggedJax: I'm keeping a log currently.
 20:29:43 <DanteAshton> and keep things fairly clean :P
 20:29:50 <DanteAshton> ...
 20:30:04 <JackyAlcine> I'm assuming Panlingua's been spoken of, haven't read back.
 20:30:11 <UndiFineD> wb JackyAlcine
 20:30:13 <dsnettleton> I don't like the idea of special hardware requirements for Wintermute. Seems like everyone should be able to put him on any computer they like. Maybe one day computers will have an AI chip in addition to CPUs and GPUs, but I thought one of the principle purposes was to run on existing hardware.
 20:30:20 <DanteAshton> news just in; I've just been told the min-interview I pulled off for a greek website has resulted in a few folk wanting to help us build the S.I.I
 20:30:21 <Artir> JackyAlcine; it was
 20:30:26 <DanteAshton> well, the website at least
 20:30:33 <DanteAshton> dsnettleton: you misunderstand
 20:30:46 <DanteAshton> the entire system would be too heavy for it to run on a standard machine
 20:30:51 <abbax> ooh, more greeks
 20:31:03 <Ilidur> I think i can get some researchers at my uni interested in this.
 20:31:04 <JackyAlcine> dsnettleton: The average person doesn't have 1TB of data free.
 20:31:07 <UndiFineD> s/r//
 20:31:13 <Tahakki> so wintermute itself will not be usable by the general public?
 20:31:18 <DanteAshton> so, we'll 'debrain' Wintermute, then distribute it. Then all the system has to do is pattern match, which is not intenstive
 20:31:29 <dsnettleton> So we're talking a UI interface for general public?
 20:31:31 <Tahakki> ah, i see
 20:31:37 <UndiFineD> I ha ve TB free
 20:31:42 <JackyAlcine> dsnettleton: More like a service/daemon.
 20:31:46 <Tahakki> do we NEED a UI, as such?
 20:31:48 * Artir has one and half tb free
 20:31:49 <JackyAlcine> It'll be as transparent as possible.
 20:31:49 <dsnettleton> Gotcha.
 20:31:54 <Tahakki> yeah, a daemon
 20:32:01 <JackyAlcine> The UI is optional.
 20:32:04 <Tahakki> are we talking voice here , yeah?
 20:32:06 <Ilidur> think of google voice for android... it does all processing in the cloud
 20:32:08 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: Yes.
 20:32:20 <Tahakki> we'll need one heck of a server
 20:32:27 <Tahakki> amazon EC2, maybe, if we all chip?
 20:32:35 <DanteAshton> Ok, well...the idea here is that Wintermute augments a user's work
 20:32:38 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: We'd need hundreds.
 20:32:44 <JaggedJax> If we get to that point we'd need funding
 20:32:53 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: For large-scale production.
 20:32:53 <JaggedJax> or sponsorship
 20:32:55 <DanteAshton> IE: you could be working on a document, and tell Wintermute to email your friend for you whilst your busy
 20:33:06 <DanteAshton> #chair JackyAlcine
 20:33:06 <meetingology> Current chairs: DanteAshton JackyAlcine
 20:33:15 * JackyAlcine was waiting for that.
 20:33:15 <DanteAshton> oh good, it works
 20:33:26 <DanteAshton> *sigh*
 20:33:31 <DanteAshton> Sorry, I forgot! :P
 20:33:32 <JackyAlcine> #link https://launchpad.net/~wintermute-psych
 20:33:43 <JackyAlcine> #link https://launchpad.net/~wintermute-devel
 20:33:54 <JackyAlcine> #link https://launchpad.net/~uait
 20:34:00 <UndiFineD> it is there, eventhough the bot does not respond to this
 20:34:10 <DanteAshton> it should do...bit of a fault there :P
 20:34:13 <JackyAlcine> #action Re-use previously existing projects related to AI
 20:34:13 * meetingology Re-use previously existing projects related to AI
 20:34:23 <JackyAlcine> #action Begin layout of S.I.I
 20:34:23 * meetingology Begin layout of S.I.I
 20:34:37 <Tahakki> can we discuss how this 'teaching' will take place?
 20:34:47 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: There's different types of teaching to be done.
 20:34:53 <DanteAshton> It really all depends upon how we design Wintermute
 20:34:55 <Artir> That'll come after the code is written down I guess
 20:35:10 <JackyAlcine> For one, non-Latin languages'll have to be manually taught to Wintermute and checked against.
 20:35:21 <DanteAshton> and that's a BIG project...
 20:35:35 <JackyAlcine> Panlingua seems to not be able to cover many languages, but in terms of linguistics; I've implemented a means about that.
 20:35:40 <UndiFineD> Often seen is the AI is given a IRc or web interface where the public may play with it
 20:35:56 <JackyAlcine> #chair UndiFineD
 20:35:56 <meetingology> Current chairs: DanteAshton JackyAlcine UndiFineD
 20:35:57 <DanteAshton> Classically, one would train a simple pattern-matching chatbot by giving it books and other such things to learn from
 20:36:03 <Ilidur> I think it should be very modular... so any part of the processing engine can be upgraded without rewriting the whoe code
 20:36:08 <DanteAshton> Wintermute would be very capable of this.
 20:36:12 <JackyAlcine> Ilidur: It will
 20:36:22 <abbax> or wikipedia
 20:36:31 <abbax> I've seen it done
 20:36:33 <UndiFineD> indeed
 20:36:34 <DanteAshton> Considering the fact that we have a design down for a fully operational machine capable of dealing with natural langauge
 20:36:40 <Tahakki> How will the teaching happen? Will we just talk to Winter?
 20:36:50 <JackyAlcine> abbax: Wikipedia's a bit too "open", DBPedia would be a bit better, using the Open Data Standard.
 20:36:52 <DanteAshton> I've had numerous ideas regarding other things it may do
 20:37:38 <DanteAshton> Oh, I'd like to call a Psych team meeting for Wednesday 6 PM UTC if possible?
 20:37:49 <Tahakki> what is UTC, exactly?
 20:37:50 <JackyAlcine> #idea Meeting for Psych Wed 6pm UTC
 20:37:52 <Artir> Let me check
 20:37:57 <JackyAlcine> ;UTC | Tahakki
 20:37:57 <Tahakki> is that the same as GMT?
 20:38:03 <DanteAshton> Right now? Yes
 20:38:04 <Artir> it's iceland's time
 20:38:05 <Artir> more or less
 20:38:07 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: yes.
 20:38:08 <Artir> GMT-1
 20:38:13 <DanteAshton> Get's a little complicated during summer hours, though :p
 20:38:20 <Tahakki> so 7PM UK time?
 20:38:27 <Artir> right now it's 20:38 GMT
 20:38:29 <DanteAshton> No, UTC and UK are the same :P
 20:38:30 <Artir> *UCT
 20:38:34 <Tahakki> oh?
 20:38:38 <Tahakki> i see. :P
 20:38:38 <DanteAshton> right now, if I remember...
 20:38:43 <JackyAlcine> ;add UTC is UTC is equivalent to the Greenwich Mean Time, which is a standard used throughout Ubuntu systems.
 20:38:45 <DragonEyes> Factoid UTC was successfully added
 20:38:58 <JackyAlcine> Any questions regarding the coding of Wintermute?
 20:38:59 <UndiFineD> UCT != UTC
 20:39:01 <Tahakki> righto, 6PM wednesday?
 20:39:04 <Tahakki> should be possible
 20:39:09 <Artir> UndiFineD, yep. :p
 20:39:13 <DanteAshton> Now, considering we have a system capable of understanding most langauges, I thought it'd be a good idea if we looked into Wintermute teaching the user langauges
 20:39:14 <Tahakki> yes, briefly outline how wintermute has been coded, please
 20:39:16 <Artir> no problem here
 20:39:36 <JackyAlcine> Wait, Dante'll explain the teaching of Winter first.
 20:40:02 <DanteAshton> can I PLEASE have a cigarette first? I'm dying for one...
 20:40:03 <Tahakki> cool.
 20:40:05 <DanteAshton> :P
 20:40:11 <Tahakki> NO.
 20:40:15 <Tahakki> :P
 20:40:17 <Tahakki> haha, yes, go ahead
 20:40:23 <UndiFineD> #action Psych team meeting for Wednesday 6 PM UTC
 20:40:23 * meetingology Psych team meeting for Wednesday 6 PM UTC
 20:40:24 <Tahakki> can you type at the same time?
 20:40:27 <abbax> I've had 2 already, go ahead
 20:40:42 <abbax> 3 pints of stout too
 20:40:46 <Artir> lol xD
 20:41:03 <DanteAshton> Remind me not to let you near Wintermute's NN when your drunk :P
 20:41:09 <Artir> xD
 20:41:10 <Tahakki> NN?
 20:41:12 <DanteAshton> No, I use a rolling machine :P
 20:41:15 <Artir> A drunk AI, imagine it :P
 20:41:22 <dsnettleton> NN = neural network
 20:41:23 <JackyAlcine> BACK to work.
 20:41:23 <Artir> would be fun to talk with :P
 20:41:26 <DanteAshton> neural network: a simplistic version of the same one your using :P
 20:41:29 <abbax> pure unadulterated genius
 20:41:32 <Tahakki> "DUN TOUCH MA....CORES..."
 20:41:49 <DanteAshton> ok, so, was that about Wintermute teaching the user, or us teaching Wintermute?
 20:41:56 * DanteAshton lights the ciggie
 20:41:56 <JackyAlcine> yes.
 20:42:01 <JackyAlcine> the first one.
 20:42:01 <DanteAshton> ...
 20:42:06 <DanteAshton> Ahhh yes
 20:42:14 <UndiFineD> what it is fed initially must be considered carefully, do not mess with the brain
 20:42:14 <DanteAshton> Some time ago, I was made aware of the AutoTutor project
 20:42:34 <DanteAshton> which could teach the user about things, and, through modelling the user's knowledge
 20:42:44 <DanteAshton> know how much they understood
 20:42:52 * Tahakki wonders if Dante will slap us if we give Wintermute a nickname.
 20:42:53 <DanteAshton> there is a FOSS one, though I think it stalled a long time ago
 20:43:00 <DanteAshton> GNUTutor
 20:43:01 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: I will, personally. lol
 20:43:13 * Tahakki hugs Winty.
 20:43:33 <JaggedJax> how cute
 20:43:38 <JackyAlcine> With GNUTutor and Wintermute, we can implement a native means of teaching users arbitrary things.
 20:43:42 <DanteAshton> Considering Wintermute can understand langauge, I propose it teaches a diffrent langauge to the user
 20:43:49 <Tahakki> so which bit uses python, exactly?
 20:43:53 <Tahakki> hmm
 20:43:59 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: We'll come to that ;)
 20:44:12 <DanteAshton> if we disassemble the various music programs we have around the place
 20:44:18 <Tahakki> i think we should get winter to have the basic funtionailty first?
 20:44:23 <Tahakki> hooks into programs and that
 20:44:27 <Tahakki> DBus?
 20:44:28 <DanteAshton> hang on...need 30 seconds
 20:45:07 <DanteAshton> We can get Wintermute to teach users how to play an instrument
 20:45:07 <Artir> Winty sounds great
 20:45:08 <Artir> :P
 20:45:14 * Tahakki stabs Father Time
 20:45:16 <DanteAshton> (f they have a good enough microphone)
 20:45:21 <JackyAlcine> ^^
 20:45:22 <Artir> woah
 20:45:26 <Tahakki> can we...
 20:45:30 <JackyAlcine> Since music's purely math.
 20:45:39 <Tahakki> ...not get too ahead of ourselves? :P
 20:45:49 <Tahakki> "music's purely math"
 20:45:54 <Tahakki> oh dear
 20:45:54 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: It is.
 20:45:59 <Tahakki> let's not start that argument
 20:46:01 <DanteAshton> There are a few GPL algos that would allow us to actually get Wintermute to improvise with the user
 20:46:26 * Tahakki is rebooting router
 20:46:28 <DanteAshton> in real time
 20:46:29 <DanteAshton> which would be interesting
 20:46:41 <DanteAshton> are we getting ahead of ourselves? I don't know, we're designing a system which opens so many doors...
 20:46:43 <Artir> everything is math, physics and stuff like that
 20:47:32 <abbax> If we design a working core the rest will follow
 20:47:39 <dsnettleton> There's no doubt that Wintermute will have a myriad of applications, but I'm inclined to agree with Tahakki. We need to focus first on the tasks at hand.
 20:47:40 <abbax> communities will be formed around the project
 20:47:49 <Artir> Sure they will
 20:48:00 <JackyAlcine> The underlying nature of Wintermute is is ability to store and manipulate data.
 20:48:00 <UndiFineD> abbax: the problem is not working cores
 20:48:01 <DanteAshton> Ok then
 20:48:26 <DanteAshton> first we need to get a way of structing data inside a database, which can store concepts
 20:48:31 <JackyAlcine> I've devised an idea of having its internal database be composed of three NNs.
 20:48:33 <DanteAshton> basically, an Ontolgy.
 20:48:41 <JackyAlcine> Three of those.
 20:48:50 <dsnettleton> Why three?
 20:48:58 <JackyAlcine> dsnettleton: I'm explaining. >_<
 20:49:03 * DanteAshton watches
 20:49:16 * dsnettleton hangs his head in shame
 20:49:17 <JackyAlcine> The first NN would be the general knowledge base.
 20:49:37 <JackyAlcine> This is the information that could be considered "immutable" or constant, that the user shouldn't be able to change.
 20:49:43 <JackyAlcine> Like the color of skys.
 20:49:53 <Artir> And do you really need a NN for that?
 20:50:08 <Artir> A simple Ontological database wouldn't suffice?
 20:50:14 <Artir> "simple"
 20:50:50 <DanteAshton> Yes, it would...
 20:50:57 * DanteAshton rolls another ciggie
 20:51:30 <JackyAlcine> Gah, indeed Artir.
 20:51:39 <JackyAlcine> I have these notes. >_<
 20:51:59 <JackyAlcine> But the databases are the general knowledge, user knowledge and semantic linking databases.
 20:52:10 <Artir> I would imagine that a NN can reorder itself, but if the data is fixed, then there is no need to have it..
 20:52:28 <JackyAlcine> The user knowledge is initially empty, is local and consists of everything that Wintermute would need to expand its knowledge of the user's life.
 20:52:31 <UndiFineD> well, if you where to feed a brain a base, that would be like genetic code ... a baby learns the sky is called blue
 20:52:33 <DanteAshton> an NN would only make it needlessly complex...
 20:52:41 <JackyAlcine> IE: DOB, GeoIP, etc.
 20:53:06 <JackyAlcine> The semantic linking attaches the 'meaningful' connection behind the user's info and the general knowledge base.
 20:53:16 <DanteAshton> the idea is that we take advantage of the Uncanny Valley here; we trick the user...
 20:53:22 <dsnettleton> I'm not trying to be a pain, but this is a Linux system. Should there be a knowlegebase for groups as well?
 20:53:47 <JackyAlcine> dsnettleton: Such as? Or are you referring like locale-orientated bases?
 20:54:08 <pindonga> JackyAlcine, can you give an example of what would go in the semantic linking db?
 20:54:16 <pindonga> the other two are self-explanatory
 20:54:38 <Tahakki> apologies, chaps
 20:54:43 <Tahakki> we have a new modem/router
 20:54:49 <Tahakki> rather temperamental
 20:55:05 <dsnettleton> Well, if there's a user-side database storing information about the user, I assume its access is also restricted to only that user. On a multi-user system, however, it might be helpful to have Wintermute perform a similar operation for groups of users.
 20:55:08 <UndiFineD> Tahakki: does it fit dd-wrt
 20:55:15 <JackyAlcine> dsnettleton: That'll be implemented.
 20:55:20 <dsnettleton> Ok
 20:55:28 <Tahakki> dd-wrt?
 20:55:37 <UndiFineD> that is router software
 20:55:51 <JackyAlcine> pindonga: Consider the semantic linking base the 'conversion' of the user to general data.
 20:56:06 <JackyAlcine> pindonga: It'll link Sulphise Juedy to mother.
 20:56:15 <JackyAlcine> and realize that I have a mother named Sulphise Juedy.
 20:56:26 <Omega> Tahakki: UndiFineD: Can this wait until after the meeting?
 20:56:27 <pindonga> ok
 20:56:43 <Tahakki> yeah, leave it
 20:56:55 <DanteAshton> intergration with social sites may help here...
 20:57:02 <JackyAlcine> This downcasting of information allows rapid modification of data.
 20:57:13 <JackyAlcine> and permits what Dante just mentioned.
 20:57:20 <Tahakki> so when will Winty be ready for basic things?
 20:57:25 <Tahakki> talking to the user etc.?
 20:57:39 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: Months.
 20:57:44 <Tahakki> right
 20:57:54 <Artir> maybe even half a year
 20:57:55 <dsnettleton> Better months than years.
 20:58:01 <JackyAlcine> dsnettleton: Indeed.
 20:58:02 <Tahakki> ideally, if we want to teach it quick, we make it easy for non-technical users to do so
 20:58:03 <Artir> or a year
 20:58:08 <Omega> What's the plan right now? What can people start doing immediately?
 20:58:21 <Tahakki> ie, the teacher simply talks to it in a terminal and tells it stuff
 20:58:44 <JackyAlcine> Omega: We can start implementing the databases.
 20:58:53 <Artir> Tahakki: http://141.225.42.246/AutoTutorDemo/StartFrame1.htm . Check that out
 20:59:25 <JackyAlcine> pindonga: I can't remember; it was you that sent me this e-mail?
 20:59:50 <pindonga> which one?
 21:00:10 <JackyAlcine> About the NLP theory.
 21:00:17 <pindonga> no, sorry
 21:00:32 <JackyAlcine> Well, we can work on Panlingua on making it a bit more flexible.
 21:00:53 <DanteAshton> We also need to look at taking a data-mining bot and altering it to extract data ready for Wintermute
 21:00:55 <JackyAlcine> I've done what I can by implementing it in an abstract way as possible so that languages outside of Latin can work.
 21:01:02 <JackyAlcine> ^^^ yesss, that is vital.
 21:01:25 <DanteAshton> but first, we need to design the core of Wintermute's conceptual files.
 21:01:31 <Tahakki> autotutor is amazing
 21:01:58 * DanteAshton loves his abilty to impress and amaze people...
 21:02:06 <JackyAlcine> Implementing an efficient means of storing data is going to be a task, as we'd need to implement a good hash function.
 21:02:12 <DanteAshton> sorry if I'm a bit quiet here, folks; neurological emergency...
 21:02:21 <UndiFineD> and this afternoon I talked with about decentral networked communication between NN
 21:02:30 <UndiFineD> JackyAlcine: *
 21:03:04 <Tahakki> is autotutor yours, dante?
 21:03:05 <JackyAlcine> yes. A decentralized network of NNs can allow an abstract meta NN to be formed, and in a sense create an adhoc NN
 21:03:08 <Artir> UndiFineD, via the internet? Or local instances?
 21:03:08 <DanteAshton> I wish!
 21:03:16 <JackyAlcine> Artir: Both can be done.
 21:03:16 <UndiFineD> Artir: either
 21:03:22 <DanteAshton> No, simply a love idea I saw spring from a thesis paper into reaily.
 21:03:27 <DanteAshton> reality*
 21:03:31 <Tahakki> right, so what is Winty's primary function? to assist the user?
 21:03:33 <Artir> Wouldn't be lag an issue in the first case
 21:03:57 <DanteAshton> Winty's primary function (god, I'm using it now!) is to become a companion for the user.
 21:03:58 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: If it had 'one' function, that wouldn't classify it as AI.
 21:04:01 <Artir> Tahakki: take over the workd and rule us in an efficient, transparent way ;)
 21:04:05 <Artir> *world
 21:04:06 <UndiFineD> Tahakki: there is the wish to be functional for SpeechControl
 21:04:20 <JackyAlcine> ;SpeechControl | Tahakki
 21:04:27 <UndiFineD> but there are more posibilities here
 21:04:31 * JackyAlcine gets a haddock.
 21:04:34 <DanteAshton> Many more...
 21:04:42 <Tahakki> SpeechControl?
 21:04:46 <Tahakki> voice command?
 21:04:50 * Artir congratulates Tahakki for gettin Dante to say Winty :P
 21:04:55 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechControl
 21:04:57 <Ilidur> any design docs?
 21:05:12 <JackyAlcine> Ilidur: Still in implementation, near the end.
 21:05:16 <Tahakki> ah, interesting
 21:05:24 <Tahakki> what are we using for speech synthesis? eSpeak?
 21:05:30 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: Nope.
 21:05:32 <Artir> openmary
 21:05:33 <DanteAshton> GOD NO!
 21:05:38 <DanteAshton> :P
 21:05:48 <DanteAshton> KILL ESPEAK! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!
 21:05:48 <Tahakki> haha, good!
 21:05:56 <Tahakki> what ARE we using
 21:05:56 <Artir> lol
 21:05:58 <Tahakki> ?
 21:06:01 <Tahakki> are we writing our own?
 21:06:01 <JackyAlcine> http://mary.dfki.de/ presents a Java-based, emotional speech synthesis engine.
 21:06:02 <Artir> openmary :P
 21:06:20 <Omega> For gathering data we can look at http://scraperwiki.com/
 21:06:27 <JackyAlcine> you can try the online demo of openMary (given that the server's up) at http://mary.dfki.de:59125
 21:06:35 <JackyAlcine> #link http://mary.dfki.de
 21:06:42 <JackyAlcine> #link http://scraperwiki.com
 21:07:12 <JackyAlcine> openMary is our primary engine because of its ability to generate 'emotional' speech.
 21:07:12 <UndiFineD> #link  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechControl
 21:07:14 <DanteAshton> Oh, also, I'm working on a few short stories which may you may find quite inspirational...
 21:07:14 <Artir> The question of the project's governance and team structure was talked about earlier, but not fully explained.
 21:07:35 <JackyAlcine> Wintermute's team will be divided into two teams.
 21:07:37 <Artir> DanteAshton, If it's scify, give me
 21:07:42 <JackyAlcine> As described before,
 21:07:47 <Tahakki> openmary online demo not working for me
 21:08:16 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: Not surprising, it's under a lot of load.
 21:08:24 <UndiFineD> can we get back to AI stuff now, plenty of time to learn on SpeechControl later
 21:08:27 <Artir> I mean, are there team leaders, or lead developer or stuff like that
 21:08:53 <JackyAlcine> Artir: Yes, I'm head developer of the Wintermute project for the time being.
 21:09:02 <JackyAlcine> Dante's head of Psychology and overseer of the entire project.
 21:09:04 <DanteAshton> I'm just a head :P
 21:09:08 <Artir> lol xD
 21:09:15 <Tahakki> does Winty have a head?
 21:09:18 <Tahakki> or arms?
 21:09:25 <DanteAshton> actually...
 21:09:28 <Artir> We are it's eyes
 21:09:29 <DanteAshton> funny you should mention that
 21:09:31 <Artir> xD
 21:09:35 <Artir> and ears
 21:09:42 <JackyAlcine> We actually discussed on giving Wintermute a body ;)
 21:09:48 <Tahakki> if it has a bellybutton i'm leaving
 21:09:49 <Artir> More on that :P
 21:09:53 <DanteAshton> you see...there's a lovely robot called 'Q.Bo'...and I wonder if they could help here
 21:10:10 * DanteAshton gives Winty a bellybutton.
 21:10:25 <abbax> iCub is a possibility, maybe?
 21:10:42 <DanteAshton> Havent heard of them
 21:10:58 <Tahakki> a body is rather unnecessary :P
 21:11:04 <Tahakki> so what can we actually DO right now?
 21:11:07 <abbax> open source robot platform
 21:11:09 <DanteAshton> for the time being :P
 21:11:28 <JackyAlcine> Right now, Panlingua is one thing that needs work.
 21:11:28 <UndiFineD> I have this: http://images.intertoys.nl/Images/Intertoys/Subfilter/actiefiguren_robot.jpg
 21:11:39 <phillw> abbax: which is what inferno is :)
 21:11:41 <Artir> the robosapiens :P
 21:11:42 <JackyAlcine> It's impossible for me to generate over 7,000 words on my own.
 21:12:08 <UndiFineD> JackyAlcine: libre office
 21:12:43 <JackyAlcine> The first 100 most commonly used words must be added to Panlingua.
 21:13:05 <JackyAlcine> Then the top 200 nouns and verbs (inculding conjugations) will be appended.
 21:13:05 <Artir> http://www.duboislc.org/EducationWatch/First100Words.html example list
 21:13:11 <JackyAlcine> Later words will be added over time.
 21:13:26 <JackyAlcine> #link http://www.duboislc.org/EducationWatch/First100Words.html
 21:13:50 <JackyAlcine> In essence, we'll be teaching Wintermute how to speak.
 21:14:11 <abbax> is there a timeframe on that?
 21:14:32 <Tahakki> so are there any tasks i can actually perform?
 21:14:35 <Tahakki> me myself?
 21:15:09 <UndiFineD> search cool abandond project with available code, and rate it
 21:15:18 <JackyAlcine> abbax: If Panlingua progress probably for a month and 2 weeks, then we can perhaps teach it English and funnel Spanish, French, Dutch, Italian and Portuguese as well.
 21:15:22 <Artir> lurk, in other words
 21:15:25 <UndiFineD> why was it abandoned
 21:15:28 <Artir> I task I excel at :P
 21:15:44 <UndiFineD> what can be reused
 21:15:59 <DanteAshton> we're looking for things like the libots libaray...
 21:16:00 * Tahakki lurks in a drain, peering out.
 21:16:12 <UndiFineD> are there cool ideas we could use, like the emotiv headset
 21:16:20 <Tahakki> haha, mind control?
 21:16:28 <DanteAshton> Let's not even go there...
 21:16:30 <Tahakki> it only registers very, VERY broad emotions
 21:16:34 <Tahakki> though i suppose...
 21:16:40 <Tahakki> "Why do you hate me, Dave?"
 21:16:52 <paultag> Tahakki: you can have a klaxon hooked up to the reader, and blare it when they drop to beta waves.
 21:16:55 <UndiFineD> can we make money from sponsors or do companies want to fund our efforts
 21:17:05 * Tahakki calls shotgun on being Neo if Winty takes over the world.
 21:17:18 <DanteAshton> Google would be interested in Panlingua, I recoken...
 21:17:18 <JackyAlcine> #idea Should we charge sponsors or request funding?
 21:17:25 <UndiFineD> paultag :D
 21:17:42 <JackyAlcine> And perhaps use Panlingua in place of their translation services; of which is mostly user inputted.
 21:17:50 <DanteAshton> Big commercial item for Canoncial there, if they are interested...
 21:18:06 <Tahakki> let's stay away from that for the time being
 21:18:12 <Tahakki> make this a killer app first
 21:18:15 <JackyAlcine> Right now, before Wintermute can learn, it has  to know how to speak.
 21:18:19 <Tahakki> THEN dante gets his mansion
 21:18:21 <JackyAlcine> Communication is critical.
 21:18:26 <DanteAshton> Ha!
 21:18:28 <Artir> I think before asking for funds
 21:18:33 <Artir> a working prototype has to be made
 21:18:39 <Tahakki> definitely
 21:18:42 <JackyAlcine> Artir: Indeed.
 21:18:42 <Tahakki> web based, perhaps?
 21:18:46 <Tahakki> for now?
 21:18:48 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: We'd need hosting.
 21:18:50 <Tahakki> effectively a chatbot?
 21:18:54 <Tahakki> hmm
 21:18:57 <Tahakki> how much hosting?
 21:19:00 <UndiFineD> keep it away from lady gaga
 21:19:05 <Artir> lol
 21:19:05 <Artir> xD
 21:19:09 <DanteAshton> I'm not asking for a mansion...I am asking for enough money to not have to choose "food or eletricity?"
 21:19:18 <Omega> Speaking of the emotiv headset, the guy who opened it up is a very good friend of mine.
 21:19:34 <Tahakki> really?
 21:19:36 <Tahakki> interesting.
 21:19:43 <phillw> if you have a registered domain, I can set up a forum area with google ads, that will drive some revenue in.
 21:20:01 <Artir> thesii.org :P
 21:20:18 <UndiFineD> I think a wiki would work better
 21:20:46 <UndiFineD> but google ads could help :)
 21:20:56 <phillw> UndiFineD: you can have both :)
 21:21:07 <DanteAshton> phillw; need to talk to you after this meeting is over
 21:21:19 <DanteAshton> right. One last thing; legal protection for Wintermute
 21:21:26 <DanteAshton> (well, I say one last thing)
 21:21:30 <phillw> DanteAshton: any time
 21:21:37 <JackyAlcine> We'd need to parent our software.
 21:21:43 <DanteAshton> ...
 21:21:48 * DanteAshton headdesks
 21:21:53 <Omega> Maybe instead of looking for sponsers in the commercial area, we should focus more on academia
 21:21:57 <dsnettleton> lol
 21:21:59 <DanteAshton> PATENT
 21:22:04 <DanteAshton> IT'S PATENT you foll!
 21:22:06 * Artir runs scared
 21:22:06 <JackyAlcine> LOL
 21:22:07 <Omega> No thanks.
 21:22:08 <DanteAshton> fool!
 21:22:10 <DanteAshton> ARGH!
 21:22:11 <JackyAlcine> didn't see that.
 21:22:12 <DanteAshton> :P
 21:22:19 <DanteAshton> No, patents can be a bad thing.
 21:22:25 <Omega> Please, we don't need to bring patents in this.
 21:22:27 <phillw> use the GPL3 license, that will give you protection
 21:22:29 <DanteAshton> but we do need to look into legal protection
 21:22:32 <Artir> let him erxplain
 21:22:34 <Artir> *explain
 21:22:48 <Tahakki> Creative Commons?
 21:22:48 <JackyAlcine> Omega: You're right, CMUSphinx is a decent example.
 21:22:59 <phillw> DanteAshton: that is what the speechcontrol project is under.
 21:23:01 <DanteAshton> would GPLv3 prevent someone from looking us up, patenting our idea, and sueing us all into the ground, I wonder?
 21:23:02 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: We're talking code here :)
 21:23:10 <DanteAshton> and who do we turn to if we need such protection?
 21:23:11 <phillw> DanteAshton: YES
 21:23:17 <JackyAlcine> DanteAshton: The FSF.
 21:23:23 <JackyAlcine> Free Software Foundation.
 21:23:24 <Omega> DanteAshton: To patent something, it needs to be non-existant.
 21:23:26 <Tahakki> GPL3?
 21:23:28 * DanteAshton puts them on speed-dial.
 21:23:40 <Artir> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License
 21:23:43 <UndiFineD> http://www.epo.org/patents/law/legal-texts/html/guiex/e/d_ix_1_2.htm
 21:23:45 <DanteAshton> Hey, just like to prepare for the worst, people...not saying it's going to happen...
 21:23:47 <Omega> Tahakki: The GNU General Public Licence version 2.
 21:23:49 <JackyAlcine> We'd have to disprove the existence of intelligence. >_<
 21:23:51 <Omega> 3*
 21:24:04 <Tahakki> no, i know what GPL is xD
 21:24:05 <DanteAshton> One idea I did have was that of an "angel net"
 21:24:13 <Omega> What is an angel net?
 21:24:18 <dsnettleton> JackyAlcine: code is protected by licensing and copyrights. Patents aren't required merely to protect code.
 21:24:24 <JackyAlcine> #link http://www.epo.org/patents/law/legal-texts/html/guiex/e/d_ix_1_2.htm
 21:24:25 <DanteAshton> Imagine if multiple Wintermute's could communicate with themselves
 21:24:32 <JackyAlcine> dsnettleton: The logic?
 21:24:35 <Artir> lol xD
 21:24:35 <Tahakki> aaargh
 21:24:43 * Tahakki hides from the Wintrix
 21:24:50 <DanteAshton> then, I went higher, and thought "What of grid computing?"
 21:24:56 * phillw https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechControl#Licensing
 21:24:57 <DanteAshton> hence, ArchAngel Net
 21:25:02 <Tahakki> ahh, skynet?
 21:25:05 <Ilidur> they would start forgetting english and start talking bits :))
 21:25:15 <JackyAlcine> Dante's come up with an idea of implementing a Wintermute-based network.
 21:25:20 <Artir> lol
 21:25:21 <DanteAshton> Well..., I'm thinking of shared resources
 21:25:22 <Artir> LOL
 21:25:33 <DanteAshton> and other features
 21:25:36 <dsnettleton> Jacky:   ??? I'm not sure what part cofused you.
 21:25:41 <dsnettleton> *confused
 21:25:45 <Tahakki> skynet.
 21:26:03 <DanteAshton> IE: it might be possible for the S.I.I to give out emails to each Wintermute, allowing users to contact their Wintermute remotely, through text
 21:26:04 <JackyAlcine> dsnettleton: Code can be protected by a license, but can the algorithm behind be?
 21:26:26 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: Refrain from using that term.
 21:26:27 <DanteAshton> Imagine the ArchAngel Net being able to send out SMS messages...
 21:26:30 <dsnettleton> No, of course not. But you said we were talking about code.
 21:26:41 <Artir> look at propietary encoding formats
 21:26:41 <DanteAshton> and indeed, being able to recive them
 21:26:45 <JackyAlcine> dsnettleton: Ah.
 21:26:56 <Tahakki> sorry, is ArchAngel the name you're giving it, or something that already ecists?
 21:26:57 <DanteAshton> imagine Wintermute being able to act on your commands away from home
 21:26:59 <Tahakki> exists*
 21:27:04 <phillw> dsnettleton: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechControl#Licensing is the best protection for code at present.
 21:27:04 <Ilidur> I think we need to start teaching it using kindergarden curricula ... or even mentally challanged school curricula
 21:27:05 <DanteAshton> the former, darling
 21:27:09 <Tahakki> wintermute receiving texts?
 21:27:11 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: It's a name.
 21:27:20 <DanteAshton> simple wiki could do the trick there.
 21:27:24 <Tahakki> i've android experience, if that helps?
 21:27:31 <JackyAlcine> Tahakki: Perhaps.
 21:27:53 <JackyAlcine> And as for feeding it information, Wiki scraping and data-mining can be the best way, just have to be a bit supervised.
 21:28:02 <UndiFineD> dsnettleton: actually in america you can patent an algorithm
 21:28:35 <Ilidur> instead of "first 100 words" ... they don't form easy to understand sentences...
 21:28:41 <phillw> UndiFineD: I can get that done for you people, if you require.
 21:28:47 <Artir> We aren't simulating a whole human brain. We can't ask wintermute to be as smart as us; so unnecesary data shouldn't be fed to it.
 21:29:05 <DanteAshton> Artir: define unnecesary data :P
 21:29:14 <Artir> DanteAshton, good point :P
 21:29:14 <abbax> what is this talk about patents? what happened to open source?
 21:29:16 <dsnettleton> UndiFineD: Yes. I know. All I said was you don't need patents to protect source code.
 21:29:31 <Tahakki> cabbage-growing statistics can be defined as unnecessary
 21:29:41 <DanteAshton> Just looking into ways of protecting the damn thing from legal danger
 21:29:45 <Artir> That could be of use to a farmer using Winty
 21:29:47 <JackyAlcine> abbax: Protecting logic.
 21:29:53 <Tahakki> abbax: We need to stop companies stealing it and sueing us.
 21:30:10 <phillw> abbax: if the team wish the additional protection of a patent, I can arrange that for them.
 21:30:13 <UndiFineD> abbax: we are being protective
 21:30:19 <abbax> There must be a license that does that for us
 21:30:27 <Artir> I take that back. Data usefulness depends on it's owner.
 21:30:35 <Tahakki> We think GPL.
 21:30:45 <DanteAshton> I am simply trying to make sure the years of work we pour into it aren't taken from us...if patents do the trick, then so be it.
 21:30:49 <phillw> abbax: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechControl#Licensing gives a heck of a lot of cover.
 21:31:20 <Ilidur> Contact canonical and ask them for legal advice... I don't think they mind giving some advice...
 21:31:34 <DanteAshton> Tried that in my last team...I never got a responce...
 21:31:35 <abbax> at worst we can get legal advice to cover ourselves
 21:31:37 <Artir> We may lose members of the community because of patenting the code
 21:31:45 <Artir> THat's a risk
 21:31:52 <abbax> but patents sounds like a slippery slope to me
 21:31:52 <Tahakki> LGP?
 21:31:56 <DanteAshton> the patent will most likely find its way into something like the OIN
 21:32:06 <DanteAshton> I want to keep this free and open
 21:32:12 <Artir> ah yes
 21:32:17 <DanteAshton> Wintermute, even beyond Linux, can help humanity the most.
 21:32:32 <DanteAshton> that is, if a patent is deemed to offer the best protection
 21:32:45 <phillw> I am sure that the GPL v3 is enough protection, but if the team wish to patent stuff in USA I will arrange it for them.
 21:32:49 <Artir> Let's talk big and way this can be used in the future as a foundation for a strong AI :P
 21:33:29 <Ilidur> How about asking the free software foundation for legal advice/ patent holder?
 21:33:31 <DanteAshton> As I said, I'm writing some short stories which can depict Wintermute's functions
 21:34:15 <Artir> GPLv3 is a strong license, never defeated in court. But allows other people to see it, copy it, and commercialise it
 21:34:45 <Ilidur> brb
 21:34:47 <DanteAshton> So you suggest we allow the foundation of a Strong AI system to fall into hands possibly more evil then ours?
 21:34:58 <Tahakki> not possible, i'm here.
 21:35:06 <abbax> I just want to say that I feel strongly against Wintermute being exploited as a product
 21:35:18 <DanteAshton> It wont be exploited
 21:35:27 <Tahakki> is there a way we can ensure it won't be charged for?
 21:35:35 <phillw> Ilidur: I've got the speechcontrol under the GPLv3 licence, a commercial company who tried to steal it would have their ass sued off!!!
 21:36:06 <dsnettleton> What does it matter if it's charged for? If people can get it for free, they will.
 21:36:17 <Artir> phillw, How would you know if they have stolen it? ;)
 21:36:20 <Tahakki> we don't want a cedega situation
 21:36:21 <dsnettleton> It's like if I asked you to pay me $10 for a copy of firefox.
 21:36:37 <dsnettleton> The license permits that, but why pay?
 21:36:45 <UndiFineD> #link http://www.baudline.com/
 21:36:58 <UndiFineD> that uses GPL and charges for code
 21:36:59 <Tahakki> what if it was disguised as something else?
 21:37:16 <DanteAshton> I'd rather Wintermute was public
 21:37:16 <Tahakki> some idiot might pay for it.
 21:37:26 <Tahakki> provided we raise awareness
 21:37:31 <Tahakki> it should be grand
 21:37:43 <dsnettleton> Then the disguising/rebranding would be all they're paying for.
 21:37:44 <DanteAshton> and I'd rather prefer that some bastard organization didn't walk off with a technology as powerful as Winty
 21:38:04 <Tahakki> provided we can actually make it powerful...
 21:38:07 <Tahakki> haha, joking
 21:38:20 <Tahakki> looking at the obvious talent here, i'm sure this will be fantastic
 21:38:22 * DanteAshton is getting a migrane
 21:38:23 <Artir> We the cabbages can do it :P
 21:38:32 <Tahakki> cabbages!
 21:38:34 <Omega> If a company wants to commercialize wintermute, let them, they'll have to release the source anywya.
 21:38:35 <Artir> yeah
 21:38:35 <dsnettleton> The GPL prevents them from owning Winty. So they can't "walk off with it."
 21:38:42 <Artir> Tahakki, we are cabbages :P
 21:38:43 * Tahakki asks Winty how cabbages are grown.
 21:38:57 <DanteAshton> Winty should be able to answer.
 21:39:00 <Tahakki> You can be a cabbage if you want.
 21:39:11 <DanteAshton> This is Dante's Cabbage Patch :P
 21:39:12 <phillw> there are plenty of idiots, sadly. Getting it advertised as completely free will keep commercial companies away. If you get a web site up and running, I'll go and tweak it to ensure google see it on the 1st page :)
 21:39:12 <Tahakki> I'm a chilli.
 21:39:24 <Artir> Winty answers: look up on wikipedia, you lazy bastard! I'm playing chess vs JackyAlcine's Wintermute...
 21:39:34 <dsnettleton> LOL
 21:39:36 <DanteAshton> Now...there's an idea.
 21:39:41 <Tahakki> I can set up the wintermute.tahakki.com domain in the meantime til we get a proper one?
 21:40:23 <Artir> Tahakki, there is already a domain bought for the project
 21:40:35 <Tahakki> oh, really?
 21:40:38 <Tahakki> nice!
 21:40:43 <Tahakki> have we a site setup yet?
 21:40:47 <phillw> DanteAshton: I do have my uses and know my way around the google bots, what they like, what they do not like etc :)
 21:41:00 <Artir> Tahakki, thesii.org . Not working yet.
 21:41:07 <Tahakki> thesii?
 21:41:11 <Tahakki> not wintermute.org?
 21:41:15 <DanteAshton> we couldn't get sii
 21:41:20 <DanteAshton> Wintermute is a project of the SII
 21:41:25 <Tahakki> SII?
 21:41:29 <Omega> and wintermute.org is taken
 21:41:29 <Tahakki> I thought we were UAIT?
 21:41:39 <DanteAshton> as I said, my hope is that we can get all AI F/OSS tech under one roof
 21:41:43 <Omega> summerloud.org isn't though :>
 21:41:59 <DanteAshton> For the time being...but it's clear Winty extends beyond Wintermute
 21:42:03 <DanteAshton> ah
 21:42:05 <DanteAshton> Ubuntu, I mean
 21:42:06 <Artir> Omega, LOL
 21:42:08 <DanteAshton> sorry...snowflakes on the brain
 21:42:14 <Tahakki> fair enough
 21:42:18 <DanteAshton> and Omega, that's even worse then Sinty...
 21:42:21 <DanteAshton> Winty*
 21:42:24 <DanteAshton> Oh dear.
 21:42:24 <Artir> DanteAshton, how about wintermute.thesii.org
 21:42:27 <Tahakki> i think ubuntu needs to be a priority
 21:42:33 <DanteAshton> How so?
 21:42:46 <UndiFineD> who does NOT know what to do after the meeting ?
 21:42:52 <Tahakki> ...selfishness. :P
 21:42:55 <DanteAshton> I know I need to lie down...
 21:43:00 <Tahakki> UndiFineD: Me.
 21:43:17 <UndiFineD> why is that Tahakki ?
 21:43:37 <Omega> There is no plan on _how_ to actually do something.
 21:43:39 <Artir> Tahakki, lurk tehs internets for projects that can be used. Basically
 21:43:41 <Artir> FOr now.
 21:43:47 <Tahakki> righto
 21:43:57 <Tahakki> can we integrate my Photostory project?
 21:44:04 * Tahakki asks Winty how he's lookin'.
 21:44:19 <Tahakki> :P
 21:44:21 <UndiFineD> facial recognition is a possibility
 21:44:32 <Tahakki> kinect?
 21:44:42 <Tahakki> or openNI?
 21:44:43 <Artir> http://tahakkistechblog.hostei.com/2010/07/my-new-project-photostory/  :p
 21:44:58 <Tahakki> 404'd
 21:45:10 <Artir> because you are taking the :P into the url
 21:45:15 <dsnettleton> Probably that tongue sticking out at the end there.
 21:45:33 * DanteAshton needs to lie down
 21:45:39 <DanteAshton> Right, any questions?
 21:45:52 <UndiFineD> DanteAshton: take some rest, weĺl talk later
 21:45:58 <Tahakki> Does Winty have any?
 21:46:16 <DanteAshton> Does Tahakki want to be slapped by a wet haddock?
 21:46:22 <Artir> Winty is busy playing chess vs Artir's Winty teamed up with your's
 21:46:59 * Tahakki doesn't like fish, sorry.
 21:47:03 <DanteAshton> Seriously, any questions? I've got the brain the size of Jupiter. It's hosting a party called a 'Migraine' . The Sun is trying to get in through the front door...
 21:47:19 <Tahakki> Pluto's not invited. Poor Pluto. :'(
 21:47:19 <Artir> lol
 21:47:43 <Omega> DanteAshton: Someone needs to put the plan on paper.
 21:47:46 <Tahakki> Nah, I think we're sweet, Dante.
 21:47:49 <Tahakki> Go chill!
 21:47:50 * DanteAshton notes that Wintermute's first job is the complete and utter destruction of Tahakki
 21:48:05 <DanteAshton> Your sweet?
 21:48:06 * Tahakki is The One, and is therefore not scared.
 21:48:08 <DanteAshton> Hmm
 21:48:12 * DanteAshton licks Tahakki
 21:48:18 <DanteAshton> Yes...yes, you are.
 21:48:25 <DanteAshton> That's odd. I think you should see a Doctor...
 21:48:32 <Artir> We all should
 21:48:37 <Artir> ;P
 21:48:38 <DragonEyes> :P
 21:48:42 * DanteAshton foams at the mouth
 21:48:52 <DanteAshton> *gibber gibber*
 21:48:53 <dsnettleton> Tahakki is The One as in Neo, or as in Mr. Right?
 21:49:03 <Tahakki> Both.
 21:49:08 <Tahakki> Neo is always right.
 21:49:11 <Artir> Tahakki, or The One as the character 1?
 21:49:21 * dsnettleton high-fives Tahakki
 21:49:31 <DanteAshton> *sigh*
 21:49:31 <Omega> DanteAshton: I believe I completed the task you requested.
 21:49:39 <DanteAshton> What is the result, darling?
 21:49:50 <Omega> Well, I can't calculate it.
 21:49:53 <Omega> It's too large.
 21:49:57 <DanteAshton> ...
 21:50:03 <Tahakki> I am the One because I will eat anything: http://theradishpress.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/keanu.jpg?w=540&h=3121
 21:50:16 <DanteAshton> Explain, Omega?
 21:50:21 <DanteAshton> Have we found the Omega number? :P
 21:50:25 <Artir> lol
 21:50:26 <Artir> xDD
 21:50:47 <Ilidur> ah! finally got back!
 21:50:50 <dsnettleton> Well, I need to get off and pick my wife up from medschool.
 21:50:54 <Omega> DanteAshton: Well, the number is too large for poor WolframAlpha to calculate.
 21:50:58 <DanteAshton> ...
 21:51:01 <Artir> lol
 21:51:01 <Artir> xD
 21:51:05 <DanteAshton> O.o
 21:51:09 <Artir> Feed it to wxMaxima
 21:51:12 * DanteAshton is aware of their datacentre
 21:51:13 <Artir> GNU Octave
 21:51:17 * DanteAshton is now scared.
 21:51:24 <Omega> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(12*10*100)^7+*+(n+nCr+2)!+/+((n+nCr+2)+-+7)!+for+n+%3D+65536
 21:51:28 <Omega> That is their limit.
 21:51:39 <DanteAshton> thats...
 21:51:44 <DanteAshton> Shit.
 21:51:56 <Omega> That's with 65536 neurons
 21:52:05 <DanteAshton> *sigh*
 21:52:17 <Tahakki> bugger.
 21:52:18 <DanteAshton> Is there another tool we have that can accept the calculation?
 21:52:19 <Artir> Give it to maxima
 21:52:27 <Tahakki> we're gonna need a BIG serverfarm
 21:52:35 * Tahakki spots another Matrix reference
 21:53:02 * Artir sees rows of servers coming towards us at high speeds
 21:53:25 * Tahakki will allow Dante to be Mobius.
 21:53:40 * Tahakki thinks Artir is the Terminator.
 21:53:45 <DanteAshton> Anyone? :P
 21:54:06 * Artir would be something more like R. Daneel Olivaw
 21:54:28 <DanteAshton> UndiFineD...don't suppose you fancy getting your always-on computers to do that calculation?
 21:54:28 <Artir> I could use maxima
 21:54:37 <Artir> but I'm running out of space in my / partition
 21:54:38 <DanteAshton> What's that, then?
 21:54:39 <Artir> just 6 gigs
 21:54:58 <DanteAshton> we're attempting to calculate every state a simplifed human brain can go through...
 21:55:01 <Artir> sudo apt-get install wxmaxima
 21:55:06 <Artir> and input it to it
 21:55:43 <Tahakki> anyone have supercomputer access?
 21:55:44 <DanteAshton> Actually...
 21:55:50 <Tahakki> at a university or something?
 21:55:50 <DanteAshton> I did...a long time ago
 21:56:06 <DanteAshton> UndiFineD, did you ever finish that last calcuation?
 21:56:13 <DanteAshton> Abbax, I don't suppose you do?
 21:56:16 <Artir> I may be able to request it
 21:56:17 <Artir> let me check
 21:56:41 <abbax> no sorry
 21:56:46 <DanteAshton> Damn...
 21:56:57 <Artir> LOL
 21:57:03 <Artir> my university is working on this http://cajalbbp.cesvima.upm.es/
 21:57:05 <DanteAshton> ?
 21:57:11 <Artir> blue brain project
 21:57:34 <DanteAshton> Hmm...
 21:57:35 <Artir> http://www.cesvima.upm.es/access.html
 21:57:41 <DanteAshton> estimations?
 21:57:54 <phillw> DanteAshton: I know some one with a fair brute of a server, who I may be able to twist the arm of. What is it you require it do do?
 21:58:13 <DanteAshton> We have a calculation that needs performing, phillw
 21:58:58 <Artir> you can contact cesvima here http://www.cesvima.upm.es/contact
 21:59:00 <UndiFineD> DanteAshton: I simplified
 21:59:10 <UndiFineD> integers work faster
 21:59:39 <DanteAshton> Yes, but perhaps we can expand on your calculation to a reasonable estimate of 100 billion...
 21:59:53 <Artir> 0.12€ per hour it costs. Minimum of 10.000 hours to be purchased
 22:00:11 <Artir> that's 1200€ just for that calculation
 22:00:12 <Artir> :P
 22:00:13 <DanteAshton> ten thousand hours?!
 22:00:18 <DanteAshton> Gah...
 22:00:48 <Artir> yeah xD
 22:00:54 <UndiFineD> http://pastebin.com/7e8yevXL
 22:00:58 <Tahakki> that's 416 days
 22:00:58 <DanteAshton> Give me five minutes with a supercomputer, and I could probably get it wanting to commit sucicide
 22:01:01 <Tahakki> over a year
 22:01:14 <Artir> They have another pack
 22:01:25 <Artir> but only for research groups of the uni itself
 22:01:29 <Omega> DanteAshton: I'll work on it some more later, hopefully simplify it.
 22:01:29 <Artir> that is free
 22:01:34 <Artir> but we aren't :P
 22:01:35 <Tahakki> what kind of code is that in the pastebin?
 22:01:39 <DanteAshton> hmm :/
 22:01:41 <UndiFineD> Tahakki: php
 22:01:55 <Tahakki> is there a faster language?
 22:02:06 <DanteAshton> Ladies and gentlemen (and everything else, as well); I'm afraid I must be going, so shall we wrap up?
 22:02:08 <Artir> Remember we are still in meeting
 22:02:10 <Artir> yep xD
 22:02:31 <Artir> Maybe amazon EC2 would be cheaper for that
 22:02:34 <Omega> Yes; let us wrap up.
 22:02:36 <Artir> Lot's of instances
 22:02:54 <Tahakki> i have a friend in cambridge?
 22:03:00 <Tahakki> do they have a supercomputer?
 22:03:07 <DanteAshton> Not sure..
 22:03:10 <Tahakki> he's a maths student and so likely has access
 22:03:17 <DanteAshton> Though I'm pretty sure Warwick has one...
 22:03:19 <Artir> cambridge,CA or cambridge,uk?
 22:03:20 <Artir> :P
 22:03:22 <Ilidur> you said you'd post some documentation
 22:03:32 <DanteAshton> Hm?
 22:03:39 <Ilidur> you're in warwick?
 22:03:49 <Tahakki> UK
 22:03:58 <DanteAshton> nope!
 22:04:07 <DanteAshton> Would love to go and visit the robotics lab, there, though
 22:04:22 <Ilidur> I'm in cov
 22:04:53 <Tahakki> coventry?
 22:05:00 <Ilidur> yes
 22:05:12 <Artir> we can add another task: looking for computing prize
 22:05:18 <UndiFineD> Ofcourse there is a better language then php, but that is besides the point, if this works efficient code works miracles
 22:05:19 <Artir> we'll probably need it sooner or later
 22:05:33 <Artir> *price
 22:05:38 <Ilidur> DanteAshton : documentation about the project... you said at the begining you had some
 22:06:02 <Tahakki> yeah, doc would be nice
 22:06:17 * Tahakki needs doc to hack the matrix
 22:06:23 <DanteAshton> Well, what kind of documentation you after?
 22:06:28 <DanteAshton> Plans? Blueprints?
 22:06:33 <DanteAshton> X Marks the spot?
 22:06:38 <Artir> short stories? :P
 22:06:38 <Tahakki> API ref? only joking
 22:06:46 <DanteAshton> Those as well :P
 22:07:24 <Ilidur> anything from general functionality schemes to requirements & stuff... or just your ideas written somewhere... so we can build on them
 22:07:35 <Tahakki> idea map? :P
 22:07:39 <Tahakki> doodles?
 22:07:39 <Omega> Plans and blueprints
 22:07:42 <Tahakki> napkins?
 22:07:45 <DanteAshton> Plenty of them...
 22:07:46 <Omega> I think those are really important
 22:08:09 <DanteAshton> Yes, we have ideas, but they are still fleshed out; partly because I'm not a very healthy indiviudal, so I need my rest
 22:08:12 <DanteAshton> hang o
 22:08:16 <DanteAshton> n
 22:08:35 <UndiFineD> let me ask all of you, have you ever worked on neuron code before ?
 22:08:41 <Artir> nope
 22:08:45 <Omega> No.
 22:08:51 <Ilidur> no :)
 22:08:53 <Tahakki> I had noodles once.
 22:09:10 <abbax> I have
 22:09:11 * DanteAshton head desks again.
 22:09:21 <DanteAshton> I've dabbled in it
 22:09:27 <abbax> neurons that is not noodles
 22:09:38 <UndiFineD> :)
 22:09:38 <DanteAshton> both, actually :P
 22:09:53 <Tahakki> It was a while ago, though.
 22:10:09 <UndiFineD> my first contact with them was my first code in C
 22:10:21 <Tahakki> Mine was in a Chinese. It was quite nice.
 22:10:32 <UndiFineD> that was in 1989
 22:10:42 <DanteAshton> abbax; we will need your help assembling the basic structure of Wintermute's brain
 22:10:44 * Tahakki wasn't born then.
 22:10:54 <Artir> neither was me :P
 22:11:01 <DanteAshton> VIRGIL is not up to the task, I don't think.
 22:11:06 <Omega> Well, I suppose I did do the maths for the calculation
 22:11:08 <abbax> Danteashton: I've already sent a report to Jacky
 22:11:13 <Omega> So I guess I have done something
 22:11:19 <Artir> DanteAshton, can you share VIRGIL code with the dev team?
 22:11:19 <DanteAshton> I saw that, would you help us build it, abbax?
 22:11:26 <Tahakki> so what exactly is the python code?
 22:11:32 <UndiFineD> DanteAshton: do we have a info@thesii ?
 22:11:32 <abbax> absolutely
 22:11:34 <DanteAshton> Yes, though it's extremely buggy
 22:11:40 <Tahakki> and when you say Virgil, I think of Halo. apologies.
 22:11:45 <Omega> I do have a good understanding of how neurons function biologically.
 22:11:47 <DanteAshton> Undi, I did put in a request for one.
 22:11:54 <Artir> Think alighieri xD
 22:12:02 <UndiFineD> or something like comon input address
 22:12:02 <Tahakki> I know where we can get noodles.
 22:12:16 <DanteAshton> Lovely. I hearby appoint abbax as the brain man...
 22:12:38 <abbax> I'm not an expert programmer, I'm a neuroscientist but I'll do my best
 22:13:01 <abbax> although I right mean Matlab code
 22:13:04 <DanteAshton> Just talk to Jacky, he can deal with the code, you simply turn your high-level work into something more consumable for mortals ;)
 22:13:07 <abbax> *wright
 22:13:11 <Omega> What is VIRGIL?
 22:13:18 <DanteAshton> Wintermute's forerunner
 22:13:18 <Artir> an AI designed by DanteAshton
 22:13:26 <Ilidur> papers on neuroprogramming would be nice
 22:13:29 <abbax> *write even
 22:13:41 <DanteAshton> you dont program a neural network..
 22:13:44 <abbax> sorry, I'm up to 5 pints of stout
 22:13:50 <Tahakki> have we a working example of virgil?
 22:13:54 <Tahakki> abbax: Guinness?
 22:14:00 <abbax> homebrew
 22:14:02 <DanteAshton> Oh yes, VIRGIL worked
 22:14:05 <Artir> DanteAshton said he had an instance of it working for three months
 22:14:08 <Tahakki> Can I have a go?
 22:14:11 <Artir> and was able to engage in conversation :P
 22:14:16 <Artir> His coimputer restarted :P
 22:14:18 <DanteAshton> to a limited extent
 22:14:29 <Artir> and the AI was resetted
 22:14:52 <Tahakki> Can we play with it to see what kind of thing we have in mind for Winty?
 22:14:52 <DanteAshton> It figured out that a conversation started with Hello and How are you and to give good feedback if you were good, and bad if you were bad...
 22:15:10 <DanteAshton> Wintermute should be a lot more powerful; it'll make VIRGIL look like a toy
 22:15:16 <Tahakki> And why a new project? Why not continue virgil?
 22:15:35 <DanteAshton> and I would share it with you, but sadly, I've undergone a full neurological seziure whilst I've been sitting here
 22:15:38 <Artir> VIRGIL structure won't be enough, Dante said
 22:15:41 <DanteAshton> an ambulance has had to be called.
 22:15:51 <Artir> and that's why a 6-d hypercube AI was envisioned
 22:15:52 <Artir> :P
 22:15:53 <DanteAshton> and oddly, cannot feel my legs.
 22:15:54 <Artir> or sth like that
 22:16:03 <DanteAshton> I cannot feel my legs*
 22:16:07 <DanteAshton> oh dear..
 22:16:11 <Tahakki> could be a glitch in the matrix
 22:16:18 <Artir> Tahakki, this is serious
 22:16:23 <Artir> sort of
 22:16:30 <Tahakki> Oh, I thought he was joking.
 22:16:39 <Tahakki> sarcasm doesn't translate well over this
 22:16:44 <Omega> DanteAshton: Be careful.
 22:16:51 <DanteAshton> Yes, sorry, people, quite serious :/
 22:16:55 <DanteAshton> I've pushed myself too hard.
 22:16:56 <Tahakki> My sincere apologies.
 22:17:03 <Tahakki> Dante, shouldn't you go and take a rest?
 22:17:04 <DanteAshton> Not to worry, my friend
 22:17:07 <UndiFineD> DanteAshton: told you to take a break
 22:17:17 <DanteAshton> Bit hard, the bed is 6 steps behind me
 22:17:23 <Artir> DanteAshton, shut down the effin computer
 22:17:24 <abbax> yes, let's wrap up
 22:17:29 <Tahakki> Yes, let's finish.
 22:17:34 <Artir> Ok
 22:17:43 <DanteAshton> So, everyone clear?
 22:17:49 <Tahakki> Yep. Crystal.
 22:17:51 <Artir> We have a meeting for Psy team on Wednesday
 22:17:52 <abbax> yup
 22:18:00 <Tahakki> Email out a reminder please.
 22:18:02 <Artir> Shouldn't another one be scheduled for dev?
 22:18:07 <UndiFineD> ok, so if you guys need help, we are here, and we develop some nice stuff
 22:18:09 <Tahakki> That's up to Jackie
 22:18:22 <DanteAshton> Abbax, as your working on the brain, I'd advise you be there.
 22:18:24 <Ilidur> yup.. we'll wait for documentation material until you get better
 22:18:36 <DanteAshton> HA! You'll be here a while...
 22:18:45 <Ilidur> :)
 22:18:47 <DanteAshton> I'll be better tomorrow :P
 22:18:58 <abbax> the psych meeting you mean?
 22:19:05 <DanteAshton> Me and Jacky should have something more solid in a day....or two-three days, at the most.
 22:19:11 <DanteAshton> Just kinda sorry it wasnt ready for today
 22:19:23 <DanteAshton> Yes, darling.
 22:19:28 <UndiFineD> DanteAshton: take rest
 22:19:32 <Tahakki> just to clarify, Dante, if you don't mind me asking = you're epileptic?
 22:19:34 <Ilidur> i'll be keeping the irc open :)
 22:19:39 <abbax> sweet, just send a reminder via email
 22:19:44 <abbax> I'll be there
 22:19:48 <Omega> #endmeeting
 22:19:52 <Artir> Tahakki, cerebrapl palsy
 22:19:56 <Omega> A chairmen should do that.
 22:19:59 <UndiFineD> #endmeeting

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SII/Meetings/2011-02-10 (last edited 2011-02-10 22:35:21 by k.dejong)