16:02 -!- emmajane [n=emmajane@74.220.175.184] has joined #ubuntu-training 16:02 < billycina> man she literally is pulling people 16:02 < dinda> Still no response from Popey :( 16:02 < JustinClift> Um, who is Popey? 16:02 < emmajane> billycina: dinda doesn't mess around when it comes to volunteers. ;) 16:02 < billycina> emmajane: i can see!! 16:02 < billycina> JustinClift: alan pope 16:02 < dinda> JustinClift: Popey = Alan Pope 16:03 < billycina> he helped out loads with the prev course 16:03 < Imagineer66> I thought this was "push" content not pull. ;) 16:03 < JustinClift> Heh 16:03 < dinda> He runs the screencast team and would be very interestd in your project 16:03 < JustinClift> Cool. 16:03 < Imagineer66> What does the screencast team do? 16:03 < dinda> I tried to adjust the agenda so a few others could join in, mid-meeting 16:04 < dinda> Agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training/Meeting 16:04 < dinda> Screencast Team: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam 16:04 < Imagineer66> I tried to pull up salasaga.org and am getting an address not found error. 16:05 < JustinClift> http://www.salasaga.org/ 16:05 < Imagineer66> yup. 16:05 < dinda> It's also in Launchpad 16:05 < JustinClift> Click the link. 16:05 < JustinClift> Something wrong with your settings then. 16:05 < Imagineer66> ok... working now 16:06 < JustinClift> Typo. ;p 16:06 < Imagineer66> go figure. Link here works. Google's didn't. 16:06 < dinda> For Salasaga I just wanted to make everyone aware of the project and add it to our possible list of tools 16:06 < JustinClift> Works for me. Still a ways to go before it is everyday usable. 16:07 < dinda> Popey outlined a similar tool at a previous UDS and was trying to get you folks together to see if the specs/blueprints he already wrote might help 16:07 < dinda> So, just to recap agenda for today: 16:07 < dinda> Salasaga 16:08 < dinda> Community Involvement & Collaboration with other teams/projects 16:08 < dinda> Updating the Ubuntu Desktop Course 16:08 < dinda> and plans for UDS Jaunty 16:09 < dinda> anything else? 16:09 < billycina> sounds like a plan :) 16:10 < dinda> JustinClift - wanna give us a quick run down on where Salasaga is? 16:10 < JustinClift> k. 16:10 < Imagineer66> brb 16:10 < JustinClift> Salasaga, that people can see today, is a client side IDE. i.e. people run it on their desktop 16:10 < JustinClift> It's a standard app, and does screen captures, etc. 16:11 < JustinClift> It's then used to assemble the screen captures into which ever order necessary, add subtitles, sounds, etc. 16:11 < dinda> oh, can someone with better IRC Fu than me, keep a log? 16:11 < JustinClift> Then publish the results, to swf presently. (flash) 16:12 < JustinClift> It's still being stabilised, as it's been coded with a "make it work" viewpoint, rather than "make it 100% perfect". 16:12 < dinda> JustinClift: I saw the Launchpad project page but no Team around it 16:13 < JustinClift> From a learning point of view, it's only up to doing "presentation" type stuff. 16:13 < JustinClift> Not yet doing simulation nor guided learning. 16:13 < JustinClift> Yeah, Launchpad is not it's native project management page. 16:13 < JustinClift> Though, LP is actually really good. 16:13 < JustinClift> And... I'm the only coder on it presently. Heh. 16:14 < JustinClift> Though, that will change in the next 6-8 weeks, as some things are afoot. :) 16:14 < dinda> okay, definitely recommend you jump on the screencast mailing list and 'meet' popey 16:14 < dinda> you also mentioned it is in the repository? 16:15 < JustinClift> Yep, received an email from Iulian, the packager, and the newest release (alpha 4) has been added to the Intrepid repository. 16:15 < JustinClift> (he put a lot of time into that) 16:15 < JustinClift> So, people running Intrepid will have it available. 16:15 < dinda> excellent - others can now test for you 16:15 < JustinClift> :) 16:16 < JustinClift> First short term focus is the bug fixing, as it needs stabilisation, and it also has a few "required" features to go. 16:17 < JustinClift> Also needs automated testing, etc, to ensure quality releases, etc. 16:17 < dinda> which leads well into how this team, Training can now start to build greater community involvement and collaboration with other teams 16:17 < JustinClift> :) 16:17 < JustinClift> (go for it) 16:18 < dinda> Been trying to brainstorm with others on ways to grow our team 16:18 < Imagineer66> back 16:19 < Imagineer66> couple of questions re:salasage if I may.... 16:19 < dinda> For me, the challenge is getting organized enough to offer specific tasks to new folks 16:19 < dinda> go ahead Imagineer66: while I find a link I want 16:19 < Imagineer66> What do you do specifically, Dinda? 16:20 < Imagineer66> re:Salasaga -- q1 do you plan on integrating it with Moodle? 16:20 < dinda> oops, forgot to introduce myself! sorry 16:20 < Imagineer66> q2 Looking at it, it looks a lot like a video editor. Forgive my ignorance, how is this different? 16:20 < Imagineer66> Oh.. should we all intro ourselves? 16:20 < emmajane> Imagineer66: I was just thinking htat it looked like Wink....(screencasting software) 16:21 < dinda> I'm Belinda Lopez, long-time community person and now Canonical's Training Project Manager, working for Billy Cina 16:21 < billycina> and i work for canonical looking after anything with training in the description 16:21 < dinda> yes, intros all around - totally forgot my manners in my excitement! 16:21 < Imagineer66> I'm Mark Jones, this year's chair and longtime ed director of Kalamazoo LUG (www.kalamazoolinux.org) 16:22 < dinda> welcome - very nice to have you 16:22 < billycina> kalamazoo? 16:22 < Imagineer66> ^5's to dinda to keep the excitement going. 16:22 < Imagineer66> Michigan 16:22 < jjesse> kalamazo mi? 16:22 < JustinClift> I'm Justin Clift, primary driver for Salasaga, previous exec director of Digital Distribution www.digitaldistribution.com (OSS elearning company). 16:22 < Imagineer66> yes,, it really does exist. 16:22 < camil> dinda: my experience in that kind of project is that you need to provide community: 1) super simple tools: no local install if possible. 2) simple tasks easy to understand, fast to complete. 3) immediate results that motivate contributors. 16:22 < jjesse> Imagineer66: you a part of #ubuntu-us-mi? 16:22 < Imagineer66> yes. 16:23 < jjesse> i am co-author of the official ubuntu book, work on the ubuntu documentation team, help out with kubuntu devel and am the maintainer of kubuntu-docs 16:23 < JustinClift> Cool 16:23 < emmajane> I'm EmmaJane Hogbin. Part time adult educator/training consultant, full time Drupal developer (and documentation author) and Ubuntu Community Member. 16:23 < emmajane> jjesse: we share a publisher. ;) 16:23 < jjesse> also in proffesional liffe i'm the director of training for a consulting company 16:23 < JustinClift> :) 16:23 < jjesse> Imagineer66: i'm in Grand Rapids, MI 16:24 < JustinClift> Melbourne, Australia here. 16:24 < dinda> lots of rockstars in the room today 16:24 < Imagineer66> Cool. Come down and visit us sometime. 16:24 < jjesse> Imagineer66: I'll try 16:24 < billycina> there is a kalamazoo! 16:24 < billycina> well well 16:24 * emmajane is up in Canada (about 3hours north of Toronto) 16:24 < dinda> eightyeight - I believe is Aaron toponce 16:25 < dinda> and pleia2 - is another Ubuntu rockstar and sys admin type 16:25 < dinda> schock598? 16:25 < dinda> camil: where are you located? 16:25 < pleia2> oh yes, I work for a company that specializes in Debian sysadmin stuff in Philadelphia 16:26 < camil> dinda: Aix en Provence, South of France. 16:26 < dinda> ooh nice, we'll come visit you 16:26 < camil> will be glad. 16:26 < dinda> anyone else? 16:26 < Imagineer66> lol... lots of Provencial's here :) Except the big city guy Justin. :) 16:27 < visualdeception> I'm Seth, I'm in Indiana. I have helped with ubuntu-classroom, just kind of seeing whats up 16:27 < dinda> I'm located in, well temporarily in Baytown, Texas but normally in Galveston, Texas 16:27 < JustinClift> Melbourne is a big city? Heh. :) 16:27 < Imagineer66> comparatively 16:27 < dinda> visualdeception: great Seth, I met other classroom folks at Lug Radio USA 16:28 < billycina> i am in tel-aviv large town in a small country 16:28 < JustinClift> Cool 16:28 < dinda> we're keeping Billy up late 16:28 < billycina> :) 16:29 < dinda> so yes, Camil, I think you're correct in your experience on building community 16:29 < dinda> One of my tasks is to try to organize and outline better, easier ways for even new users to get involved 16:29 < dinda> a quick, early victory, will hopefully keep them coming back 16:30 < billycina> is anybody here from the first round of the training writing? 16:30 < Imagineer66> Suggestion about distro's and versions. We are staying with 8.04 until the next LTS comes out. This builds a continuity for the beginners. 16:30 < billycina> the 7.10 edistion? 16:30 < jjesse> i think i worked on some of it, had a branch at one time 16:30 < dinda> So in addition to better overall publicity in the various Ubuntu news channels I hope to reach out to other teams like the Doc Team and Classroom 16:31 < dinda> billycina: do you recall others who were involved from the community? other branches? 16:31 < Imagineer66> From our experience over the last year, the UDC was great. The big problem is publicity. 16:32 < dinda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training/GettingInvolved 16:32 < billycina> popey and there was a guy from jordan 16:32 < billycina> whos's name escapes me 16:32 < dinda> outlines the process used to create the first course and ways for new folks to participate 16:32 < billycina> we can look at the list of branches on LP 16:33 < Imagineer66> billycina: link? 16:33 * billycina is looking 16:33 < dinda> I think as we move forward we want to keep the main branch in Launchpad - correct me if wrong Billycina 16:33 < jjesse> i gotta take off and head for home, will read summry 16:34 < Imagineer66> emmajane: have you ran UDC as an adult ed/continuing ed class? 16:34 < dinda> thanks jjesse 16:34 < billycina> we do 16:34 < billycina> bye jjesse 16:34 < emmajane> Imagineer66: Nope. I do mostly Web-related training at this point. 16:34 < Imagineer66> later, jjesse - visit us. ;) 16:34 < JustinClift> Thanks jjesse. :) 16:34 < dinda> but we are looking at perhaps moving the course document out of DocBook 16:35 < emmajane> Imagineer66: my teaching experience is from very short term on-site training courses for newbs and as college IT instructor (for Web-based technologies/languages). 16:35 < dinda> and into some other format 16:35 < billycina> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-desktop-course 16:35 < dinda> we've also heard of some Loco Teams using it in their monthly meetings 16:36 -!- DougieRichardson [n=dougie@host81-155-27-132.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-training 16:36 < dinda> doing a section a month 16:36 < Imagineer66> ok. That was one of my brainstorms. Our local community colleges love to do 16:36 < emmajane> dinda: apart from the conversations we've had, what are some of the reasons you want to move away from DocBook? 16:36 < billycina> hey DougieRichardson 16:36 < dinda> there's DougieRichardson - just in time 16:36 < DougieRichardson> hey all, late as usual 16:36 < Imagineer66> Our second meeting of every month is a UDC chapter. 16:36 < dinda> DougieRichardson: we were just getting to the toolchain bits 16:36 < DougieRichardson> cool 16:36 < dinda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training/GettingInvolved 16:37 < dinda> that kind of outlines what we did last time 16:37 -!- visualdeception [n=none@66-73-14-44.ded.ameritech.net] has quit [] 16:37 < dinda> we were trying to parallel some of what the Doc Team was doing in their process 16:38 < dinda> but we're finding that DocBook has a steep learning curve for more casual contrimbutors 16:38 < DougieRichardson> We're trialling a tutorial based approach for new contributers on the doc team at the moment 16:38 < dinda> I've been looking at the http://en.flossmanuals.net project as an alternative 16:39 < dinda> dougieRichardson: that would be great - any idea how often that would run? when it's starting? 16:39 < emmajane> dinda: what are your delivery methods? i.e. do you need to pull the content into a for-print book? or can the course be delivered exclusively online? 16:40 < dinda> There is a separate online edition of the Desktop course available for purchase. . . 16:40 < DougieRichardson> dinda: sorry, i should be clearer. Currently students follow a basic guide and get support when requested 16:40 < dinda> right now we're focusing on the Instructor Led Course, that is based on 7.10 and needs to be updated 16:40 < DougieRichardson> dinda: we're trialling a set of lessons to be followed. One of these focusses specifically on DocBook. 16:41 < Imagineer66> How much work is there to update from 7.10 to 8.04? 16:42 < dinda> imagineer66: great question! that's our first task 16:42 < Imagineer66> From our experience, there are a few changes but not really all that many. 16:42 < billycina> DougieRichardson: how many active members do you have who are usin docbook? 16:42 < dinda> we're trying to identify deltas between the 7.10 and 8.04 versions now 16:42 < Imagineer66> can we help with that? 16:43 < dinda> yes, now that we are at feature freeze, it's safe to say no more changes will be made 16:43 < emmajane> I've spent a LOT of time worrying about markup languages from when I was staff with The Linux Documentation Project. Ultimately this is not actually a barrier to contributions. Knowledge about the system and passion for documentation, however, is. 16:44 < DougieRichardson> BillyCina: most students, its hard to guage as the majority of students never go any further than applying. Many spend all their time on the wiki. That said, I have two students at the moment who have grasped it quickly and much more than simple edits. 16:44 < Imagineer66> My long term goal would be to have the UDC come out within a few weeks of a LTS release. Is that good direction? 16:44 < dinda> Imagineer66: perhaps we can assign folks a set of chapters that they can help identify changes? 16:44 < emmajane> Too often "documentation" projects are handed newbies who don't know about documentation authoring OR the system they are reviewing. This is the real barrier, not DocBook itself... 16:44 < billycina> DougieRichardson: so you feel moving to docbook was a good choice? 16:44 < dinda> Imagineer66: that is a great goal :) 16:45 < DougieRichardson> emmajane: I totally agree 16:45 < Imagineer66> emmajane: +1 16:45 < emmajane> When documentation authors are given as much "respect" as programmers, I think you'll find that the whole process gets a lot easier. ;) 16:45 < DougieRichardson> Billy: yes - there are xslt transforms for it to most formats and its relatively simple 16:45 < dinda> it worries me that the Ubuntu website leads "non-technical" users to the Documentation Team 16:45 < camil> I'm sorry I must leave now, have a nice meeting, I'll keep IRC running to keep log and will be back to you concerning the tool issue. See you later. 16:45 < billycina> i think that when people move to ubuntu and have difficulty 16:45 < DougieRichardson> emmajane: when that happens I'll be the first to book a ski session in hades ;-) 16:45 < JustinClift> Thanks Camil. :) 16:45 < dinda> camil: thanks! 16:46 < billycina> we need to know what those are in order to show others how toovercome them 16:46 < billycina> that makes their input to documentation and training hugely important IMO 16:46 < Imagineer66> so many tech people think that "training" is tossing a documentation book at a beginner and calling it done. 16:46 < emmajane> DougieRichardson: I think if we did more to promote good authors and the kinds of contributions that make good documentation, you'd be on your way to your ski trip. ;) 16:46 < Imagineer66> That's their preferred method of training so it must be so for everyone. 16:46 < JustinClift> Sounds like we're trying to address several different types of audience, all at once, with one approach? :/ 16:47 < emmajane> billycina: we need to pair novice users with documentation authors to get the information from them, but I don't think it makes sense to also ask them to author the documentation. 16:47 < DougieRichardson> Given that Ubuntu is "linux for human beings" - the target audience would seem predefined to me 16:47 < dinda> somewhat - I think the Training and Doc Team have many parallels but different audiences 16:47 < Imagineer66> JustinClift: is that the goal? I thought the course was directed at beginners. 16:47 < emmajane> "pair authoring" instead of "pair programming" :) 16:48 * JustinClift thinks documentation is a good step, but is only the first part of the wedge to adoption of Ubuntu in business... different things are needed. :) 16:48 < billycina> emmajane: got it and agree! ;) 16:48 < emmajane> PS I'm just here to make your life difficult. ;) 16:48 < dinda> DougieRichardson: do you think the mentoring approach has been successful? 16:48 < DougieRichardson> dinda: yes. 16:48 < DougieRichardson> it has a high turn over though, which is a drain on mentors 16:48 < dinda> my fear is that it's not scalable 16:48 < dinda> exactly 16:49 < billycina> define high? 16:49 < JustinClift> DougieRichardson/Imagineer66: Sure, but there are several different types of "contributors" out there, which is what people are discussing... from the casual "I want to help" person, through to professional training course developers. They have very different needs, levels of commitment, and levels of expectation. 16:49 < Imagineer66> Should there be parallel "book" development; documentation for everyone, especially the well versed; and Training/tutorial, aimed at beginners. 16:50 < DougieRichardson> billy: I'd estimate 60-70% 16:50 < billycina> ouch! 16:50 < dinda> very high 16:50 < Imagineer66> do we know why the turnover rate is so high? 16:50 < DougieRichardson> Justin: Oh I see, you mean those developing the material rather than the recipient? 16:50 < JustinClift> Yep 16:50 < emmajane> dinda, billycina: remind me who the UDC is sold to? 16:51 < JustinClift> DougieRichardson: For the 60-70% that drop out, are they productive in that time? 16:51 < JustinClift> DougieRichardson: Or would it be better to weed them out earlier? 16:51 < DougieRichardson> Imagineer: Yes, most cited reasons are - DocBook, Launchpad and time. 16:52 < JustinClift> (to focus effort on the ones that will stick around) 16:52 < dinda> emmajane: the UDC course is sold through/to our Training Partners for Canonical. . . 16:52 < DougieRichardson> Justin: No. Which is why I worry about it less than everyone else :-) 16:52 < billycina> emmajane: free for ubuntu community 16:52 < dinda> but the license allows anyone to use the materials in a non-commercial manner 16:52 < Imagineer66> and "unsold" distribution to anyone who wants to dl it. 16:52 < billycina> emmajane: and aimed at home and office users who are new to ubuntu and are switching from ms 16:53 < emmajane> billycina: e.g. Dell would use it? 16:53 -!- jjesse [n=jjesse@ubuntu/member/jjesse] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:53 < billycina> emmajane: absolutely 16:53 * emmajane nods 16:53 < dinda> so some lessons going forward. . . 16:53 < dinda> perhaps develop a better induction process for new contributors 16:54 < DougieRichardson> dinda: a better, realistic description of expectations would help too 16:54 < dinda> make the tools they need to participate as easy as possible and direct those who want to continue to a higher level to monthly? mentoring/training sessions? 16:54 < Imagineer66> dinda: & DougieRichardson those are key things when bringing anyone into any project. 16:55 < DougieRichardson> billy: why not repackage the Switching from Windows Guide that's on the Live CD (I wrote it - shameless plug) 16:55 * JustinClift just had a thought... 16:55 < Imagineer66> dinda: you keep mentioning how hard Docbook is... I have not tried it. Is it really that difficult? 16:56 < emmajane> Imagineer66: no. 16:56 < JustinClift> Wonder if it'd be possible to deliver paid for mentoring... to people that REALLY want to get involved... pretty sure there are mentors out there who would be happy to get paid for it... :) 16:56 < dinda> it's an xml editor - depends on how familiar you are with native xml writing 16:56 < emmajane> Imagineer66: openoffice.org will write DocBook for you if you ask nicely. 16:56 < Imagineer66> If not, I'm not in favor of simplifying it. Is it a matter of too tough to learn or not enough dedication on the learner's part? 16:56 < DougieRichardson> Its no harder than most markup languages, the problem tends to be with its confusing hierarchy. 16:56 < Imagineer66> ah 16:56 * Imagineer66 shrug 16:56 < Imagineer66> Let's just stay with DocBook and clarify the expectations up front. 16:57 < dinda> I consider DocBook a Level 2 contributor tool. . . 16:57 < DougieRichardson> Dinda: Sorry, levels? 16:57 < dinda> whereas more casual contributors at Level 1 16:57 < JustinClift> Um, have measurements been put around the docbook tools? 16:57 < JustinClift> Usability, learning curve, etc? 16:57 < dinda> lots of folks can contribute to the Doc Team by simply reading the wikis and offering changes 16:58 < dinda> which brings up back to the wiki-based tools 16:58 < dinda> no experience needed for folks to read wikis, suggest changes, make edits 16:58 < emmajane> Worrying about the markup language is putting the cart in front of the horse. There are a LOT of tools that can "hide" the markup languages. The concern is more the content and support for contributors, IMO. 16:59 < DougieRichardson> If its that big an issue to contributers, then we could consider two options: people writing the material and then others coding it. Or an editor to generate 16:59 < Imagineer66> We've run into that several times. Leaders (me included) dumb down the tasks to get volunteers to actually do something. Problem is that often what then gets accomplished wasn't really worth doing. I say, pick a few strong contributors rather than lots of ones who bail at the first sign of resistance. 16:59 < dinda> so one train of thought is to move the source files to a wiki-based tool that then allows a "make pdf" option 16:59 < JustinClift> emmajane: agreed 16:59 < Imagineer66> I like the wiki's because they are comparitively easy for new people to use. 16:59 < Imagineer66> concentrate on the writing not on the "coding". 16:59 < emmajane> Imagineer66: I like the idea of promoting strong contributors. 17:00 < DougieRichardson> Dinda: There are caveats to that approach, it would limit the use of tables for example. 17:00 < Imagineer66> but a writer can explain what they want in a table and have a coder implement it. 17:00 < JustinClift> Have people tried Confluence as a wiki? It's very powerful (http://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/) 17:00 < dinda> okay, folks we're running out of time for our official meeting time 17:01 < dinda> okay to keep going, while we're rolling? 17:01 < Imagineer66> Yeah. I have to run. 17:01 < JustinClift> Keep going. I've put time aside. :) 17:01 < emmajane> dinda: I can still around. 17:01 < Imagineer66> Great to meet everyone and I'd love to be a contributor in the future. 17:01 < DougieRichardson> I'm cool 17:01 < emmajane> wow. fingers can't think on their own. I can stick around. 17:01 < JustinClift> Good to meet you Imagineer66. :) 17:01 < Imagineer66> send me the transcript and I'll just send emails. 17:01 < dinda> thanks imagineer66: let us know how using the materials is working for you 17:02 < dinda> imagineer66: are you on our mailing list? 17:02 < billycina> thanks Imagineer66 17:02 < eightyeight> dinda: that is me (atoponce) 17:02 < Imagineer66> dinda: Materials going very well. and Yes, on the list (I think, if it's the RIGHT list.:) ) 17:02 * Imagineer66 parts during this lull in conversation. 17:02 -!- Imagineer66 [n=Imaginee@69.51.152.246] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:02 < dinda> eightyeight: he lives! ;) 17:03 < dinda> okay, the next task/ topic is that we would like to have the courseware updated by end of the year 17:03 < dinda> middle December - to avoid holidays if possible 17:04 < dinda> if I get my act together. . . 17:04 < dinda> so to that end we're kind of back to. . . 17:04 < dinda> identify deltas (use community). . . 17:05 < dinda> ask contributors to assist with writing updates (not sure which tool yet) 17:05 < dinda> and then ask contributors to proof 17:05 < dinda> and it all gets magically uploaded/merged into Bzr/Launchpad? 17:05 < dinda> sound like a general plan? 17:06 < billycina> :) 17:06 < emmajane> dinda: why bzr/launchpad? 17:06 < emmajane> (and why at the end?) 17:06 < dinda> revsion control 17:06 < emmajane> revision control should happen throughout, not just at the end. :) 17:06 < JustinClift> Yep. 17:06 < dinda> we had some problems with merging branches before. . . 17:07 < emmajane> dinda: before mysql came on board with their bzr support contract? 17:07 < JustinClift> Oh well. 17:07 < dinda> billycina: anything to add on the Bzr-is-my-friend front? 17:07 < emmajane> (Launchpad is not my friend, but bzr is.) 17:07 < billycina> well, we need a good reason to switch/ 17:07 < billycina> ? 17:08 < dinda> billycina: they were asking why not use Bzr throughout, instead of just the end 17:08 < billycina> ie we need revision control 17:08 < billycina> ahhh got it 17:08 < billycina> we used it throughout in the 7.10version 17:08 < billycina> but that did seem to limit the number of contributors 17:09 < billycina> we can use it throughout again.... if people know how to push / pull etc 17:09 < emmajane> I've been working wiht the bzr team on documentation (a little bit). They're a really great community and I'm happy to help with more documentation if you think it might help. 17:09 < billycina> docbbok was one issue 17:10 < DougieRichardson> billy: in what way 17:10 < billycina> bzr / lp was a second problem which caused people a whole host of problems.... 17:10 < billycina> well, it is not intuitive and for people who do not write code for a living 17:10 < billycina> it just is difficult to pick up 17:10 < emmajane> Revision control generally isn't intuitive for Normal People. :) 17:10 < billycina> agree 17:11 < billycina> it is a tool for programmers designed by programmers 17:11 < DougieRichardson> We've a Bzr tutorial but you're right. 17:11 < emmajane> although bzr is a LOT better than subversion and cvs 17:11 < JustinClift> k, how about "screencasts" for beginners/newbies, on how to do common bz/LP stuff? 17:11 < billycina> so there was a double-wammy, trying to get people involved 17:11 < dinda> DougieRichardson: where is the Bz tutorial located? 17:12 < billycina> i hope it has been updated 17:12 < billycina> i looked at it about this time last year and..... 17:12 < JustinClift> Like... I'm thinking Salasaga is made for doing eLearning... LP is a website... can be er... eLearning-d. ;> 17:13 * dinda trying to recall if there are any bzr/lp screencasts 17:13 < DougieRichardson> dinda: its in a trunk somewhere on one of my machines. I can dig it out for you - it was part of our protype tutorial system that got waylaid. 17:15 < DougieRichardson> Billy: I see the one you mean. Screenshots are out of date. Presentation is awful. 17:15 < dinda> billycina: feel free to play sabdfl anytime and decide on a best path forward for me ;-) 17:15 < emmajane> http://jameswestby.net/weblog/ubuntu/03-some-advantages-of-packages-in-bzr.html <--- this was on planet a couple of weeks ago. 17:15 < billycina> play sabdfl..... thanks! 17:15 < DougieRichardson> If the consensus is that the bzr and docbook guides are poor then I'm happy to rewrite them. 17:16 < billycina> amen! 17:16 < dinda> woohoooo! 17:16 < dinda> someone buy that man a beer! 17:16 < DougieRichardson> lol 17:17 < DougieRichardson> but, we need to define a process that i can document succinctly for new contributers 17:17 < JustinClift> DougieRichardson has been volunteered. :) 17:17 < DougieRichardson> better than ten pressed men or something along those lines ;-) 17:18 < emmajane> http://bazaar-vcs.org/BazaarForWebDevs <--- I wrote this for individual people using bzr for their own projects. 17:18 < dinda> I tried to follow the on on the wiki the other day with no luc 17:18 < emmajane> i.e. not downloading an existing project. 17:19 < emmajane> numbered lists are not easy on that wiki so I used bullets instead. :) 17:19 < DougieRichardson> Yes, we discussed the use of a "learning" branch that students can mess up to their hearts content but it never happened. 17:19 < DougieRichardson> Something I could reset once a week. 17:19 < JustinClift> script it 17:19 < dinda> emmajane: can it be updated to include pulls/pushes? 17:19 < emmajane> dinda: one of the things we talked about in the bzr community is that there should be a lot of these little quick and dirty tutorials. 17:19 < dinda> from an existing branch? 17:20 * emmajane nods. 17:20 < emmajane> I wouldn't update this one, I'd do a new one with different goals. 17:20 < emmajane> http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/bzr.dev/en/mini-tutorial/index.html <--- mine is based on this one. 17:21 < emmajane> http://bazaar-vcs.org/Workflows <--- every one of these workflows should have an "in five minutes" guide. 17:21 < DougieRichardson> emmajane: i used the latter one. Its a good start 17:21 < emmajane> If you can let me know which of the models from the Workflows page best meets the UDC project, I'm happy to do that one next. 17:22 < dinda> okay, so that's gets us the Bzr part 17:22 < emmajane> Of course if you're not sure then "we" should talk to #bzr and ask for recommendations. They've been really excellent at giving me feedback on which workflow to use for different scenarios (beuno is also a web dev). 17:23 < dinda> yes, I have 'talk to bzr folks' on my list 17:24 < dinda> and the Docbook format is still open.. . 17:24 * emmajane nods 17:24 * dinda fears she may be soon be learning Docbook whether she wants to or not 17:24 < emmajane> dinda: you don't need to learn it. 17:24 < emmajane> there are editors (like OOo) that can do DocBook. 17:25 < JustinClift> Use OOo. 17:25 < JustinClift> Make other people use OOo for it. 17:25 < dinda> can it go backwards? 17:25 < DougieRichardson> Not well 17:25 < DougieRichardson> Torsten and I messed around with it last time 17:25 * dinda feared that 17:25 < emmajane> Split your files into smaller segments. 17:25 < emmajane> Allow people to use OOo for "easy" parts of the content. 17:26 < emmajane> include "harder" content as external files. 17:26 < emmajane> (edit separately) 17:26 < billycina> i used bluefish 17:26 < JustinClift> Hmmm, not practical to use OOo for (all) the content, and use that to generate DocBook? 17:26 < billycina> instead of oo 17:26 < dinda> we will need to do much formatting on the back end then? once we're back i docbook format? 17:26 < emmajane> billycina: is there a WYSIWYG to bluefish? Or do you have to look at tags? I can't remember. 17:27 < billycina> a what? 17:27 < JustinClift> GUI 17:27 < billycina> ahh 17:27 < JustinClift> Layout style 17:27 < DougieRichardson> OOo generates a lot of extra tags and doesn't always validate as strict docbook 17:27 < emmajane> billycina: does it make pictures in your window? What You See Is What You Get. 17:27 < billycina> there is a gui 17:27 < billycina> but not hugely intuitive 17:27 * emmajane nods. 17:27 < billycina> best tool around though at the time 17:28 < emmajane> The other thing about DocBook is that very very few people use the full tag set. Which means if you have a REALLY GOOD style guide and people stick to it, it's less of a big deal what editor is being used (and you can always do a post-processing script to clean up OOo markup if it's really really required). 17:29 * dinda can't recall how aligned out style guide was with the doc team style guide 17:29 < dinda> out/our 17:29 < billycina> ...not... 17:29 < dinda> yeah, figured 17:30 < billycina> ;) 17:30 < dinda> and Doc Team also uses - ack, forgot the term jjesse used for those lovely short hand things 17:30 < dinda> DougieRichardson: the magic that allows it to auto-fill in items? 17:30 < emmajane> PS http://wiki.tldp.org/WikiAuthorGuide <--- new TLDP site is DocBook-friendly. 17:30 < emmajane> macros 17:30 < DougieRichardson> macros 17:31 < DougieRichardson> oh i lost, lol 17:31 < dinda> it was more than a macro 17:31 < dinda> he showed it to me at uds 17:31 < emmajane> in DocBook, dinda? 17:31 < dinda> yeah 17:31 < emmajane> entities 17:31 < dinda> YES!!! 17:31 < dinda> that's it 17:31 * emmajane nods. 17:31 < DougieRichardson> oh the entities. yeah their just the same as definitions 17:32 < emmajane> (I really did breathe DocBook for about two years for the LDP. :/ ) 17:32 < dinda> see, don't think UDC was using tham at all 17:32 < emmajane> It sounds like UDC has the worst of the hard stuff but isn't using any of the good stuff.... 17:33 < dinda> it was an experiment :) still in progress 17:33 < emmajane> :) 17:33 < dinda> okay, so let me get my head around the Bzr questions I need to ask. . . 17:34 < dinda> and then write up a plan for the DocBook portion. . . 17:34 < emmajane> dinda: they're all just tools. 17:34 * dinda likes tools. . . 17:34 < emmajane> dinda: first you need to figure out (1) what format you want to deliver and (2) what help you need from what kind of people. 17:34 < emmajane> then you pick the right tool for the job. 17:34 < DougieRichardson> emmajane: i agree 17:34 < dinda> circular saw 17:34 < dinda> hammer 17:34 < billycina> lol 17:34 * emmajane chuckles. 17:35 < emmajane> If you want to do single source publishing to a variety of formats: DocBook is good. 17:35 < dinda> emmajane: are you running a log of this meeting? 17:35 < emmajane> dinda: I just hit the "save transcript" button at the end... 17:36 < emmajane> Right Tool for the Job. ;) 17:36 * emmajane doesn't use fancy logging things. 17:36 < dinda> i'm on an ancient irc client so i'm never sure if it saves 17:37 * emmajane nods 17:37 < dinda> phew -lots of great info from you folks 17:37 < JustinClift> It's a start. 17:37 < dinda> I think we can wrap up for now 17:37 < JustinClift> Conversations in a year will be more interesting. :) 17:38 < dinda> conversations after more beer will be more interesting too ;) 17:38 < emmajane> ha! 17:38 * JustinClift laughs 17:38 < JustinClift> Nice to meet you all. 17:38 < billycina> likewise :) 17:38 < dinda> okay, we'll get the log posted and I'll write up some notes 17:38 < DougieRichardson> Likewise 17:38 < dinda> thanks all for you time and brains! 17:39 < emmajane> dinda: do you want me to just email it to you? 17:39 < dinda> yes, please 17:39 < emmajane> kay 17:39 < eightyeight> lots of chatter here. haven't seen this since i joined some time ago 17:40 < dinda> eightyeight: we'll taking over more now ;) 17:40 < eightyeight> dinda: meeting, eh? 17:41 * pleia2 never did nag nalioth enough to get the settings sorted out 17:41 < billycina> good night all 17:41 < JustinClift> 'nite Billy. :) 17:41 -!- billycina [n=billycin@bzq-79-182-225-165.red.bezeqint.net] has left #ubuntu-training [] 17:41 < dinda> thanks all - night 17:41 < DougieRichardson> yeah, night all 17:41 < dinda> or evening here 17:41 * eightyeight works for a training company, and is hoping to partner with canonical 17:41 < JustinClift> 'nite Dinda 17:41 -!- DougieRichardson [n=dougie@host81-155-27-132.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has left #ubuntu-training ["Ex-Chat"] 17:41 -!- schock598 [n=schock@p54851F70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #ubuntu-training ["Konversation terminated!"] 17:42 < eightyeight> is there a mailing list? 17:42 * eightyeight should re-check the wiki 17:42 < pleia2> ubuntu-training AFAIK 17:43 < pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-training-community 17:43 < eightyeight> pleia2: i'll be in king of prussia again next week 17:43 < pleia2> w00t 17:43 < eightyeight> any plug meetings going on? :) 17:43 < eightyeight> or ubuntu-pa? 17:43 < pleia2> there is one on monday 17:43 < pleia2> about djbdns 17:44 < eightyeight> perfect! i'm there 17:45 < pleia2> cool, it's the Plymouth Meeting location 17:45 < pleia2> http://www.phillylinux.org/locations/coredial.html 17:46 < eightyeight> sweet. close too 17:47 < eightyeight> just off dekalb, eh? what time? 17:50 < pleia2> 7-8 is Q&A, 8-9 is presentation 17:51 < pleia2> do you still have my number? you can call if you get lost 17:53 < JustinClift> I've got to go and get ready for work. cya all. :) 17:53 -!- JustinClift [n=jc@ppp121-44-178-38.lns5.mel6.internode.on.net] has left #ubuntu-training [] 17:53 < eightyeight> pleia2: lemme look. i might 17:56 -!- popey [n=alan@ubuntu/member/popey] has joined #ubuntu-training 17:56 < popey> :( 17:57 < dinda> oh great, NOW he shows up! 17:57 < popey> heh 17:57 < dinda> popey: we missed ya 17:57 < popey> sorry 17:57 < dinda> no worries, your name was mentioned in good company 17:57 < popey> i thought my client was in here anyway so i thought i had it logged, did someone else log it? 17:58 < eightyeight> popey: got it here 17:58 < dinda> yip, should be posted up tomorrow 17:58 < popey> groovy, will look then 17:58 * popey goes to bed.. quite excited about UDS :) 18:06 < dinda> pleia2: can you explain what a cloak is? 18:06 < pleia2> dinda: yep 18:06 < pleia2> when you join a channel it looks like this: 18:06 < pleia2> 11:32:56 -!- dinda [n=dinda@c-98-201-24-5.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-women 18:07 < pleia2> everyone can see your ISP information 18:08 < dinda> and this is bad 18:08 < pleia2> a cloak puts different information in there 18:08 < pleia2> so like popey has one: 17:56:54 -!- popey [n=alan@ubuntu/member/popey] has joined #ubuntu-training 18:08 * pleia2 shrugs 18:08 < dinda> yip, saw that, sneaky boy 18:08 < pleia2> I suppose it's bad if someone is trying to attack and now knows what IP address you're coming in under 18:09 < pleia2> or if you don't want people to know where you live 18:09 < pleia2> so freenode gives out unaffiliated cloaks for folks who just want it covered 18:09 < pleia2> you could get an ubuntu member or a canonical cloak :D 18:10 < dinda> how do I do that? 18:10 < pleia2> join #ubuntu-irc and ask 18:13 < dinda> do I need to ping anyone in particular? 18:15 < pleia2> nope, just explain what you need and people will pop up to help 18:15 < pleia2> lemme get you some directions first though... 18:15 < pleia2> http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup 18:16 < pleia2> they'll ask you to do that stuff 18:16 -!- vlowther [i=victor@adsl-75-55-115-193.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #ubuntu-training 18:16 < pleia2> the secondary nickname is required 18:23 < dinda> ok, need to register that one 18:50 -!- jjesse [n=jjesse@70.237.123.252] has joined #ubuntu-training 19:27 < emmajane> pleia2: xchat doesn't appear to get timstamps, which I thought it did. does your irc client have a save-back-wards in time thing for transcripts? 19:27 < pleia2> yep, I can post them if you want 19:27 < emmajane> can you send them to dinda? 19:27 < emmajane> dinda@ubuntu.com 19:27 < pleia2> sure 19:27 < emmajane> thanks :) 19:27 < emmajane> I've sent her the transcript already, but I was thinking she might want time stamps