20110808

Summary

Core Components

There was quite a bit of discussion about what core component is and particularly if external monitors should be a core component of laptops.

Finally it was agreed:

  • HDMI external video is an extra component for laptops

  • VGA external video is a core component for laptops

  • The rest of the division will follow the results of the survey

We were discussing using the horizontal logo for brand purposes and the "sticker" for rating for a particular system. There were some concerns about using the sticker as sticker, as it will change over time.

So, it was decided:

  • The horizontal logo will be the brand of the programme
  • The badge (not sticker!!) will be used in a per system page to show its rating

Log

  • <ara> welcome to the first weekly meeting for the Ubuntu Friendly programme!! We are approaching 11.10 deadline, and we still have a lot of stuff to discuss and decide, so we will use these meetings to make decisions and discuss stuff that takes a long time if discussed in the mailing list.

    <ara> I will be chairing the meeting, and be presenting the topics. Please, raise your hand (o/) if you want to participate in the discussion, and type ".." when you're done.

    <ara> The agenda today looks like this:

    <ara> Core Components

    <ara> Taking a decision on the components based on the survey.

    <ara> Logo

    <ara> Horizontal Logo based on guidelines: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-friendly-squad/msg00102.html

    <ara> Sticker: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-friendly-squad/msg00073.html

    <ara> AOB

    <ara> so, starting with the first topic!

    <ara> [TOPIC] Core Components - Taking a decision on the components based on the survey

Core Components - Taking a decision on the components based on the survey

  • <ara> One of the basic ideas of Ubuntu Friendly is the concept of having core components, needed to work in order for the system to actually gain a rating more than 0, and extra components, that only count once the core ones have been covered.

    <ara> We had some discussions on the mailing list and we conducted a survey to see what people would consider core or extra. The results, already split by core/extra depending on the results are available at:

    <ara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly/Process/Components

  • <ara> That survey (and conversation) was useful, as it promoted stuff like wired network on laptops as core components. Personally, I think that the division coming from the survey is good to start with. What do you guys think?

    <bladernr> o/

    <ara> go ahead bladernr

    <bladernr> Just curious if the "Missing from Survey" items are things that will be considered later, or were suggested during the survey... and wondering if any of those would qualify as "Core".

    <ara> o/

    <bladernr> That being said, I agree that what we have there is a good place to start with modifications to come later incorporating the rest

    <bladernr> ..

    <cr3> o/

    <ara> cr3, go ahead

    <cr3> ara: what's "USB"?

    <victorp> o/

    <ara> victorp, you go

    <victorp> missing components - it seem to me that there is no testing today to cover those, is that the intent of the word missing?

    <victorp> ara ^

    <ara> o/

    <ara> OK, missing components were missing from the survey

    <ara> but we are not covering them today anyway

    <ara> Although I think that those could be nice additions, I think that it is too late in the process to start adding that type of coverage for Oneiric, but we could take those into account for future releases.

    <ara> ..

    <brendand> o/

    <ara> go ahead brendand

    <brendand> i fail to see how external monitors can be considered 'core'

    <brendand> i guess that's just what the survey indicated, but from my understanding of the term 'core' here, it doesn't fit

    <davmor2> ara: if Missing components were missing doesn't the double negative mean they were in fact there? Wink ;)

    <HaruSiga77> o/

    <ara> brendand, ..?

  • bladernr \0o/

    <brendand> ..

    <ara> HaruSiga77, your turn

    <HaruSiga77> I think it would indicate if the vga, hdmi, and ect work out of the box.

    <davmor2> bladernr: is infact zaford beddlebrox from hhgttg Smile :)

    <ara> HaruSiga77, ..?

    <ara> OK, anyway

    <ara> bladernr, you wanted to add something?

    <bladernr> yea

    <HaruSiga77> @brendand The reason external monitors are "core."

    <ara> bladernr, go ahead

    <bladernr> brendand: I was going to say basically what HaruSiga77 said... and that "Core" means it has to work to be considered UF in the first place... and on laptops, external video is key in many use cases

    <brendand> o/

    <bladernr> perhaps in the final list, External Monitors should be changed to External Video

    <bladernr> or something along those lines to limit confusion

    <bladernr> ..

    <HaruSiga77> o/

    <ara> OK, my turn Big Grin :)

    <jbicha> o/

    <cr3> should external monitors (or video) fall under peripheral testing and limit ubuntu friendly to the video?

    <ara> For the question before on USB. it is USB working (can be anything attached by usb)

    <cr3> my point is that no two desktops are likely to be used with the same monitor, so what would be friendly exactly?

    <ara> and for the monitors, VGA might be core, while HDMI might be extra

    <cr3> o/

    <ara> ..

    <ara> by turn, brendand, go ahead

    <brendand> i do think we're stretching the definition of 'core' a little bit. my understanding was that if a 'core' component wasn't working then you wouldn't be interested in buying that system

    <brendand> bike with no pedals etc

    <brendand> external monitor doesn't fit, you can still use a laptop without the external monitor

    <ara> brendand, ..?

    <brendand> ..

    <roadmr> o/

    <ara> HaruSiga77, your turn

    <ara> o/

    <HaruSiga77> By brendand's definition I also think that

    <ara> (please remember to type ".." when finished, so everything is a bit quicker)

    <HaruSiga77> External video should be Extra components

    <HaruSiga77> oh ok...

    <ara> HaruSiga77, are you done?

    <HaruSiga77> yes mam

    <ara> jbicha, <-

    <jbicha> ...and core stuff shouldn't break from release to release

    <jbicha> one problem with testing external video is that users may not have all the appropriate video cables to fully test

    <jbicha> if it works and we want to encourage a broad base of testers

    <jbicha> ..

    <ara> cr3

    <cr3> regarding ara's definition of "USB", I would therefore rename that component to "USB controller"

    <cr3> regarding brendand's definition of "core" meaning "usable", I think it'll be difficicult to agree on what everyone consideres usable. so, we should probably limit the definition to the basic minimum set and plan to expand as we demonstrante a certain level of success with that minimum

    <cr3> ..

    <cr3> regarding jbicha's point about regressions, this is not something that can be garanteed but that's certainly something cool that the UF programme can offer the community early in the release cycle to prevent this from happening

    <ara> roadmr

    <roadmr> beating on a dead horse, re: external displays

    <roadmr> we don't test the display per se, we test the system's ability to drive one

    <charlie-tca> o/

    <roadmr> on a desktop system it's 100% core: if it can't drive a display, I can't use it.

    <charlie-tca> nm

    <bladernr> o/ +1 ..

    <roadmr> on a laptop it doesn't prevent me from *using* the laptop, but we've established that a big use case for laptops is driving projectors, presentations, and stuff

    <roadmr> so people buying a friendly laptop and finding it's unable to drive a projector are going to say it's quite unfriendly

    <roadmr> so yep I think driving external screens should be core, and as for testing, let the user test what he has, it's just asking them to tell us if the system works OK, we don't need each user to be a hardware testing lab with scopes and all the cables and stuff

    <roadmr> ..

    <ara> OK, my turn

    <ara> 1) First, IMHO, the definition of core is not the one brendan was giving. You can use a laptop without audio, but I still think is core

    <ara> Core just means something important enough to give a system a 0 if it does not work

    <ara> 2) for the external displays, I think that we should consider VGA differnt to HDMI (VGA being core, as it is used with projectors)

    <ara> 3) Let's vote

    <ara> [VOTE] HDMI to be a core component for laptops

Motion: HDMI to be a core component for laptops

  • <brendand> -1

    <cr3> -1

    <mlegris1> -1

    <ara> -1

    <cr3> - <HaruSiga77> 0

    <cr3> Mootbot didn't explode, nice Smile :)

    <cr3> HaruSiga77: I think you need to +0

    <HaruSiga77> +0

    <ara> bladernr, charlie-tca, roadmr, victorp?

    <roadmr> +1

    <victorp> o/-1

    <jbicha> +0

    <victorp> -1

    <charlie-tca> =1

    <bladernr> -a

    <bladernr> -1

    <charlie-tca> =1

    <charlie-tca> +1

    <schwuk> -1

    <ara> [AGREED] HDMI is not a core component for laptops

HDMI is not a core component for laptops

  • <ara> [VOTE] external VGA a core component for laptops

    <ara> [ENDVOTE]

Results: 2 in favour, 7 against, 2 abstained.

Overall: -5

Motion Carried: HDMI to be a core component for laptops

Motion Denied: HDMI to be a core component for laptops

Deadlock. If someone has a casting vote now is the time to use it

  • <ara> [VOTE] external VGA a core component for laptops

Motion: external VGA a core component for laptops

  • <mlegris1> +1

    <brendand> -1

    <ara> +1

    <roadmr> +1

    <victorp> +1

    <schwuk> +1

    <bladernr> +1

    <cr3> -1

    <HaruSiga77> +1

    <jbicha> +0

    <cr3> not having an external monitor on a laptop resulting in a 0 is rather harsh Sad :(

    <ara> [ENDVOTE]

Results: 7 in favour, 2 against, 1 abstained.

Overall: 5

Motion Carried: external VGA a core component for laptops

Motion Denied: external VGA a core component for laptops

Deadlock. If someone has a casting vote now is the time to use it

  • <ara> [AGREED] External VGA is a core component for laptops

External VGA is a core component for laptops

  • <ara> [VOTE] Rest of division as per survey results

Motion: Rest of division as per survey results

  • <ara> +1

    <bladernr> +1

    <brendand> +1

    <charlie-tca> +1

    <roadmr> +1

    <mlegris1> +1

    <HaruSiga77> +0

    <cr3> +1

    <victorp> +1

    <cr3> o/

    <jbicha> +1

    <ara> [ENDVOTE]

Results: 9 in favour, 0 against, 1 abstained.

Overall: 9

Motion Carried: Rest of division as per survey results

Motion Denied: Rest of division as per survey results

Deadlock. If someone has a casting vote now is the time to use it

  • <ara> [AGREED] Rest of division core/extra will follow survey results

Rest of division core/extra will follow survey results

  • <ara> Anything else on the components topic?

    <cr3> o/

    <ara> cr3, you go

    <mlegris1> o/

    <cr3> to what device, in udev, does suspend/resume correspond to?

    <cr3> ..

    <ara> well, let's call components/features

    <ara> mlegris1, you go

    <mlegris1> non-core components will still be tracked if people want to test?

    <mlegris1> ..

    <mlegris1> ie fingerprint, etc

    <ara> mlegris1, fingerprint is not covered

    <jbicha> o/

    <ara> mlegris1, extra components that we cover, like HDMI, will count for the 2 extra points

    <ara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly/Process

  • <ara> jbicha

    <jbicha> does fingerprint authentication even work in Ubuntu? off-topic, but I disabled the part of the

    <jbicha> Ubuntu Desktop Guide we got from Gnome dealing with fp readers but if someone has one, they're welcome

    <jbicha> to contact the Documentation Team to get that content back into the user help

    <jbicha> ..

    <ara> jbicha, as you say, offtopic, but feel free to stay around after the meeting so people can answer that

    <ara> anything else on components?

    <ara> OK, moving on

    <ara> [TOPIC] Logo

Logo

  • <ara> OK, so if you have been following the mailing list there has been quite a lot of conversations about the logo (or logos) UF should have. I'd like to thank thorwil who put a lot of effort in designing the logo. Unfortunately, it didn't comply with the current design guidelines and thorwil preferred to not use his idea with the current guidelines. We respect that, so we had to come up with alternatives.

    <ara> OK, so if you have been following the mailing list there has been quite a lot of conversations about the logo (or logos) UF should have. I'd like to thank thorwil who put a lot of effort in designing the logo. Unfortunately, it didn't comply with the current design guidelines and thorwil preferred to not use his idea with the current guidelines. We respect that, so we had to come up with alternatives.

    <ara> Victor came up with two ideas, one for the horizontal logo (the basic logo for web pages) and one for the ratings of each of the systems:

    <ara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly/Logo

  • <ara> Any comments on those?

    <cr3> o/

    <ara> cr3, go ahead

    <cr3> +1 for horizontal, -1 for sticker. do we really need a sticker at this point?

    <ara> cr3, ..?

    <cr3> ..

    <ara> o/

    <victorp> o/

    <charlie-tca> o/

    <bladernr> o/

    <ara> victorp, go ahead

    <victorp> the sticker

    <victorp> is not for printing

    <victorp> is for the webpage as a logo of how many stars do a system have for a release

    <victorp> ...

    <brendand> o/

    <ara> charlie-tca, your turn

    <charlie-tca> These appear quite large, what happens when they are shrunk down to fit the webpage size ubuntu now uses?

    <cr3> o/

    <charlie-tca> ..

    <ara> victorp, you want to reply to that before continuing with the turns?

    <HaruSiga77> o/

    <victorp> they are svg

    <victorp> so they are easy to resize

    <victorp> once we have a webpage we can decide the size we need

    <ara> cool, thanks

    <ara> bladernr, you go

    <bladernr> Not entirely on topic, but is it just me, with Chrome, or does anyone else see giant images in tiny boxes with horiz and vert scrollbars? I can't actually see the whole image, only pieces at a time Sad :( makes it hard to really view them and make a good decision.

    <bladernr> ...

    <charlie-tca> They are huge

    <charlie-tca> I have to think when shrunk parts will disappear

    <ara> Ctrl + - on your browser will help

    <schwuk> bladernr: just you - they worked fine for me (admittedly through the GMail viewer)

    <ara> bladernr, you can check them in the mailing list as well

    <bladernr> ara: no, that actually just shrunk the entire page...

    <bladernr> I did look at the ones attached. I;m just wondering about displaying htem on the wiki

    <bladernr> weird... I'll blame chrome.

    <bladernr> ...

    <ara> brendand

    <brendand> we should stop calling it a sticker if it's not intended for that purpose as victorp indicated

    <brendand> ..

    <schwuk> brendand: badge?

    <brendand> yup

    <ara> good point Smile :)

    <ara> cr3

    <cr3> victorp: if it smells like a sticker, quacks like a sticker and looks like a sticker... do we really need a sticker just to display stars, amazon just uses stars for example, so why not just re-use the same stars as in the software center?

    <cr3> ..

    <ara> HaruSiga77

    <HaruSiga77> Just answering cr3's question on suspend and hibernation: It would most likely test power control, RAM, and Swap. I think we can add this later as we need to focus on the deadline, but it is important as I see more users suspend and/or hibernate instead of shutdown. Torturous to computers, but useful at times for humans.

    <HaruSiga77> ..

    <ara> OK, I think is my turn

    <ara> I like both and my only comment about the badge, I was wondering if there would be space to put the release on it. Something like "11.10" - face - stars.

    <ara> and, in case we want to print it... why not? next generation cking's happy face

    <ara> ..

    <cr3> o/

    <ara> cr3

    <cr3> ara: you don't want to encounrage people to print a status that is likely to change, number of stars varies as more people submit test results about their hardware

    <cr3> ..

    <cr3> (it would be like having karma badges on launchpad)

    <ara> same thing with cking's face

    <ara> Any other comments? or voting?

    <HaruSiga77> o/

    <ara> HaruSiga77,

    <HaruSiga77> How does karma badges worl?

    <HaruSiga77> work?

    <HaruSiga77> ..

    <ara> HaruSiga77, they don't exist

    <ara> OK, let's vote

    <cr3> ara: the cking badge is for fun, intended as a joke, are you saying UF should be considered the same?

    <ara> cr3, of course not, but I don't think a sticker can be harmful at all

    <ara> look at jono's laptop

    <ara> and he's still alive

    <schwuk> o/

  • cr3 cooks up a Black Metal Ubuntu Friendly logo

    <ara> anyway, the intention is the website of ratings, not printing (for the purpose of voting)

    <ara> schwuk

    <schwuk> If the badges become stickers, then we shouldn't include the star ratings (perhaps the work "Friendly" instead).

    <schwuk> Then we get to spread the word about Ubuntu Friendly, and cr3 is happy (until we have OLED stickers we can update dynamically).

    <schwuk> ..

    <ara> schwuk, sounds like a plan Smile :)

    <ara> OK, quick voting

    <ara> [VOTE] Horizontal logo for the brand of the programme

Motion: Horizontal logo for the brand of the programme

  • <ara> +1

    <bladernr> +1

    <jedimike> -1

    <schwuk> +1

    <roadmr> +1

    <cr3> +1

    <brendand> +1

    <charlie-tca> 0

    <HaruSiga77> Maybe 7 levels of friendly for stickers as it may cause companies to try to have level seven. ie. better quality

    <charlie-tca> +0

    <HaruSiga77> +1

    <ara> [ENDVOTE]

Results: 7 in favour, 1 against, 1 abstained.

Overall: 6

Motion Carried: Horizontal logo for the brand of the programme

Motion Denied: Horizontal logo for the brand of the programme

Deadlock. If someone has a casting vote now is the time to use it

  • <ara> [AGREED] Guidelines compliant logo for branding

Guidelines compliant logo for branding

  • <bladernr> o/

    <ara> bladernr, after the voting, please

    <bladernr> ack

    <ara> [VOTE] Badge with stars for ratings on the website (no stickers!!!!)

Motion: Badge with stars for ratings on the website (no stickers!!!!)

  • <schwuk> +1

    <cr3> -1

    <jedimike> +1

    <ara> +1

    <bladernr> +1

    <roadmr> +1

    <HaruSiga77> -1

    <charlie-tca> +0

    <ara> [ENDVOTE]

Results: 5 in favour, 2 against, 1 abstained.

Overall: 3

Motion Carried: Badge with stars for ratings on the website (no stickers!!!!)

Motion Denied: Badge with stars for ratings on the website (no stickers!!!!)

Deadlock. If someone has a casting vote now is the time to use it

  • <ara> [AGREED] Badge with stars for ratings on the website (and cking will still be the official sticker for good hardware)

Badge with stars for ratings on the website (and cking will still be the official sticker for good hardware)

  • <ara> bladernr, go ahead

    <bladernr> 1: Regarding the Horizontal Logo, I'm just curious why jedimike voted no. I know he's got a good grasp on web design, so wondered what his opinion was on that. 2: regarding the badge, after considering something cr3 said,

    <bladernr> I'm hoping the badge ONLY appears on individual entry pages, and not on any sort of list view (where simple stars alone would be better)

    <bladernr> ...

    <cr3> o/

    <ara> cr3, I would rather like jedimike to reply to the first question and then you go?

    <cr3> ara: meh, I'm easy

    <ara> jedimike, do you want to give us your view?

    <jedimike> bladernr: I know it follows the official guidelines, and it's just that with the friendly a different size and font, it looks to me like it's disjointed. I really liked the smiley face - it yelled "friendly" at me. Purely my preferences and perception though

    <bladernr> jedimike: ahh.. ok. thanks. I was just curious, as when you or schwuk talk about web stuff, I try to pay more attention

    <bladernr> Smile :)

    <ara> cr3, your turn, thanks for waiting

    <schwuk> o/

    <ara> cr3, ?

    <cr3> bladernr: there are probably reasons why everyone else just uses stars, so we'll have to do our own learning by doing things differently which might mean ending up with two star systems

    <cr3> ..

    <bladernr> cr3: fair enough... I just had a horrifying vision in my mind of a list view with literally hundreds of those badges, line by line

    <jedimike> o/

    <ara> schwuk, your turn

    <schwuk> bladernr: FWIW I agree 100% with jedimike on the horizontal logo, but it's the best we've got that conforms to the guidelines, hence my +1

    <ara> (schwuk and jedimike will be the last two comments on this, as we already run out of time)

    <ara> schwuk, ..?

    <schwuk> cr3/bladernr: the list views will not use the full form badges, but the stars (and their logic) will be same.

    <schwuk> ..

    <ara> jedimike

    <jedimike> I was thinking pretty much the same as schwuk, just with a different ending - if the guidelines haven't given us something great, maybe there's a case for trying again, hence my -1

    <jedimike> ..

    <cr3> maybe if we wait a few months, the guidelines might change in our favor by then Smile :)

    <ara> OK, moving on topics

    <ara> [TOPIC] Any Other Business?

Any Other Business?

  • <ara> going once

    <HaruSiga77> Will this be integrated with USC or seperate?

    <cr3> HaruSiga77: separate

    <ara> HaruSiga77, USC?

    <cr3> software center

    <ara> cr3, thanks

    <ara> Smile :)

    <bladernr> One thing

    <ara> bladernr, go ahead

    <HaruSiga77> Nice.

    <cr3> HaruSiga77: I would very much like somekind of integration and consistency between the two projects, which are very similar because one is for software and the other for hardware, but not in the foreseeable future

    <bladernr> I just wanted to thank all the community members that came to the meeting and took part. I like to see that kind of participation and discussion, and hope that it continues in the future!

    <bladernr> ..

    <ara> +1

    <ara> OK, anything else?

    <ara> going once

    <ara> going twice

    <HaruSiga77> Are we submitting this to th CD image?

    <ara> HaruSiga77, what do you mean?

    <cr3> HaruSiga77: you should be able to submit test results from a live environment

    <cr3> HaruSiga77: except that you probably won't be able to test things like suspend/hibernate, but I might be wrong Smile :)

    <HaruSiga77> Okay, I just wanted to know if it was part of the default installation.

    <ara> in that case, yes Smile :)

    <jbicha> yes, checkbox has been installed by default for a long time

    <cr3> HaruSiga77: checkbox is the client for testing the system and it's already part of the default installation

    <cr3> it will continue submitting to Launchpad for now which will be integrated with the UF programme through a few levels of indirection Smile :)

    <ara> OK, we already bypass the scheduled time by 10 minutes

    <ara> So I guess it is time for:

    <ara> #endmeeting


Meeting closed at 16:10

People Present

  • ara
  • bladernr
  • cr3
  • victorp
  • brendand
  • davmor2
  • HaruSiga77

  • jbicha
  • roadmr
  • charlie-tca
  • mlegris1
  • schwuk
  • jedimike

Actions Recorded

  • None

UbuntuFriendly/Meetings/20110808 (last edited 2011-08-08 16:32:38 by apulido)