= Full Circle Meeting #2 Log =

'''This is a log of Full Circle Meeting #2, held on Saturday 9th June 2007 at 16:00 UTC.'''

'''This log is unedited!'''

<mrmonday> Welcome to The contributors meeting

<budi-baliwae> nolander_ we are neighbor

<nolander> r we

<nolander> how

<budi-baliwae> welcome bro mrmonday

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, get us started

<nolander> ummm

<linuxgeekery> nolander: ?

<budi-baliwae> ladies and gentlemen, ronnie is come. the star :D

<nolander>  is he here

<linuxgeekery> yes...

<ronnietucker> thank you, thank you...   *bows*   ;P

<budi-baliwae> huuh

<budi-baliwae> very long time waiting u ron

<mrmonday> * the crowd cheers*

<linuxgeekery> ok, seriously: first topic of discussion

<ronnietucker> i like to keep you all waiting Budi  ;)

<ronnietucker> ok, first should be the design stuff...

#fullcirclemagazine: mode change '+v topaspv' by mrmonday

<budi-baliwae> +v me too :D

<ronnietucker> ok, #1 has taken a bit of criticism over the design... some things i want to point out :

Topic changed on #fullcirclemagazine by linuxgeekery: Full Circle Meeting: magazine design

<ronnietucker> a) the design was created and 'voted in' by the members at UbuntuForums, it's not entirely my design!

<ronnietucker> (fullcircle began its life in UbuntuForums)

<ronnietucker> b) since the community decided on that design i'd prefer NOT to completely erase it but upgrade it. Tweak it.

<ronnietucker> the VAST (and i mean VAST) amount of criticism has come from Digg-ers so i'm completely ignoring them, they are notoriously hard to please on 
ALL subjects!

<linuxgeekery> but some people do agree that we need to change our design a bit - more white space, font, etc

<ronnietucker> (that was point C btw)

<ronnietucker> d) if we change too much too quickly people will think we're a completely different magazine

<mrmonday> some of the diggers do have valid points though...

<ronnietucker> now... what i'm proposing is this ;

<ronnietucker> we change the font style and size

<ronnietucker> change the font justification to left (its middle now)

<ronnietucker> use less rounded boxes

<ronnietucker> use more guides and snaps (doesn't affect you guys but makes my work a bit longer :/  )

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<linuxgeekery> me, ronnie, and mrmonday created a little prototype design last night

<vdepizzol> use inkscape isn't better? (even without multiple-pages support?)

<linuxgeekery> vdepizzol: inkscape isn't layout and publishing

<ronnietucker> Scribus is about the only suitable prog there is

<mrmonday> I think all of the rounded corners need to be the same

<ronnietucker> i'd rather NOT use the prototype as its far too different from what we have now

<mrmonday> ATM some have different amounts of curve

<ronnietucker> yes but does that really annoy people???

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, I think it would be better to change it sooner, rather that later...

<nolander> it look untidy

<mrmonday> Show people the prototype...

<linuxgeekery> nolander: rounded corners?

<iMayKnow> it's much nicer to have a consistent size of corners. looks more professional

<nolander> yes

<mrmonday> so they can input

<linuxgeekery> I agree about the rounded corners

<linuxgeekery> if you're interested, take a look at the prototype.  

<ronnietucker> exactly why i'm proposing well ok, we do away with the rounded corner boxes...

<linuxgeekery> it's at http://fullcirclemagazine.org/download/issue-test.pdf - take a look please

<ronnietucker> lg i'd really rather NOT go that route

<tonny> i think the rounded corner not too big.. sorry i mean the corner side

<ronnietucker> it's an idea but we only have a few weeks to go before #2

<budi-baliwae> loooking..

<linuxgeekery> ronnietucker: mrmonday asked to show people

<mrmonday> I think everyone should input their thoughs on the design

<tonny> sorry i'm ur reader

<ronnietucker> that issue-test is a prototype created last night to try and clear up some of the problems

<iMayKnow> i think if you're going to make changes, make them now while this is just getting going instead of making incremental changes all the way through

<mrmonday> It is completely different, but it is a lot more professional

<ronnietucker> but it's wildly different from the current design, more white less colour

<sampbar> the roundness of the corner looks too big in my opinion

<nolander> Love the prototype

<ronnietucker> but the problem is; when do we stop designing?

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, plus, it looks like less effort for you

<mrmonday> as the design is simpler

<ronnietucker> guaranteed after #2 we'll have more criticism, do we change again??

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, of course

<ronnietucker> its MORE effort as i'd have to recreate the templates

<budi-baliwae> more simple design

<budi-baliwae> and it more easy to print out

<budi-baliwae> not too many colour

<budi-baliwae> like before

<linuxgeekery> I personally like the new design - like nolander said, it's simpler, more professional, but still keeps the ubuntu brown in the titles and 
boxes

<budi-baliwae> i think the head title is too bigger

<topaspv> i don't see a reason to recreate the templates and invest so much work into it (again, i think). does no one think that issue #1 looks good?

<iMayKnow> if we set a timeline for when we just don't make any more layout changes to the magazine, we can maybe get more feedback over the next issue or two 
and then after that, just keep the layout as-is. we will never please everyone, so we should get it to a point where it's palatable to most people (especially 
to the designers)

<mrmonday> I personally think we should change to the new design

<iMayKnow> i agree with mrmonday

<nolander> i think most r 4 the new one

<tonny> i agree too

<linuxgeekery> I agree too

Action: sampbar agrees but with less roundness

<linuxgeekery> so that's 5 for

<linuxgeekery> anyone against the new design?

<nolander> i agree too

<budi-baliwae> agree

<nolander> 7

<budi-baliwae> btw i think the page number is better at right

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, we could raise a poll on the site

<linuxgeekery> hmm... I think I'll do that

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, get everyones opinion

<ronnietucker> no point in a poll, we dont have time to collect votes.

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, so we can see if there is a demand

<ronnietucker> if the new design goes in it has to go in now

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<ronnietucker> only one week to deadline

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, just for a day?

<ronnietucker> one day isnt very democratic...

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, one day got us 20,000 downloads...

<ronnietucker> through 4 weeks of advertising though!

<sampbar> advertise in the ubuntuforums and on the main page

<mrmonday> and it is more democratic than a few people on IRC

<budi-baliwae> i think with the new design will make the size of pdf smaller

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, We'll all spread the word
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<tonny> hhmm... may i help to design page?

<mrmonday> thats another good point by budi-baliwae 

<ronnietucker> it wont affect the size of the PDF as its vector graphics

<budi-baliwae> great

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, but there are less graphics...

<budi-baliwae> less size, more people can download

<budi-baliwae> especially in growing country

<ronnietucker> most of the graphics are vector, only way to cut down the filesize is to have less screens

<mrmonday> it won't make that bigger difference to the size actually

<mrmonday> as ronnietucker said

<ronnietucker> how big is that one page? It only has one screen on it

<mrmonday> :D

<sampbar> why not .tar.gz the pdf?

<iMayKnow> that one is !300kb

<nolander> 600k

<iMayKnow> ~300kb

<mrmonday> any other comments on the magazine design?

<ronnietucker> archiving it makes very little difference

<mrmonday> PDF is pre compressed

<tonny> the background color

<tonny> can change it? 

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<nolander> landscape

<mrmonday> I don't think landscape would work with the new design

<ronnietucker> landscape is DEFINITELY out as it would mean a complete redesign from square1

<budi-baliwae> yes

<ronnietucker> tonny - the prototype is white background, you think it should be something else?

<mrmonday> landscape doesn't use space efficiently either

<budi-baliwae> i think white is better

<mrmonday> same

<iMayKnow> i like the white as well

<tonny> ok.. white more profesional look

<budi-baliwae> white background, more easy to print out

<ronnietucker> agree with the text sizes in the prototype?

<mrmonday> yep

<tonny> page number also can decrease it little bit

<mrmonday> oh

<mrmonday> wait

<budi-baliwae> i think the head title is too bigger

<budi-baliwae> and take more space

<tonny> yes i feel it too

<mrmonday> I think the page number needs moving slightly futher away from the edge of the page

<mrmonday> I think the title is right as it is

<budi-baliwae> page number i think better in right position

<tonny> can that page number don't use shadow or effect?

<iMayKnow> is the spot where "breezy badger" is now going to be the section title, the article title or both?

<mrmonday> text is the right size

<mrmonday> agreed with tonny

<ronnietucker> breezy title is where the article title will go

<mrmonday> add a shadow

<ronnietucker> smaller text below that is article intro

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<iMayKnow> ok, it may be a bit large then... although it could work for the section title as-is i think

<tonny> actually i dont know where is the article title

<tonny> is too confuse

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, I think slightly larger text for the intro

<ronnietucker> article title is the Breezy Badger bit Tonny

<tonny> like "HOW-TO" and "ADD /REMOVE SOFW"

<tonny> where is the main and where is sub 

<iMayKnow> there might be some longer article titles that will have trouble fitting if we stay with that font size

<mrmonday> slightly bigger text for the intro, slightly smaller for the main text

<tonny> i think separate it..

<ronnietucker> if need be i can make the box larger to accomodate a long title

<tonny> yes

<tonny> long box bar..

<tonny> and at the right put text"HOW TO"

<iMayKnow> eventually though you get to the edge of the page and where do you go from there?

<iMayKnow> you can't wrap to a line below because the font is so large in the box

<ronnietucker> the brown box at top can be taller if need be

<mrmonday> Use a shorter title...

<ronnietucker> but ideally we just make the title shorter!

<iMayKnow> ah ok

<mrmonday> the obvious answer

<iMayKnow> heh yeah

<mrmonday> any other comments on design?

<ronnietucker> now guys... let me say this ;

<ronnietucker> if this is what you want, i'll do it. But we can't keep changing it!

<ronnietucker> a new design every month will look stupid

<budi-baliwae> ok ron

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, this will be more or less final

<ronnietucker> so be sure this is what you want......

<mrmonday> I think

<topaspv> one suggestion: perhaps someone could write a short text about the new design in issue #2 so people see why there is this change (if it is)

<ronnietucker> we'll all have to make concessions as we can't please ALL the people

<mrmonday> editorial

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<ronnietucker> i can explain the change in the editorial

<mrmonday> is that it for design then?

<ronnietucker> so ANYthing else to change?

<sampbar> i dont think we should be making final decisions about design this early on

<budi-baliwae> yes

<sampbar> make slight changes and get feedback after each one

<budi-baliwae> i agree

<ronnietucker> once this meeting is done i'm not going to keep implementing changes!

<budi-baliwae> please make the conclusion

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, not even small ones?

<sampbar> you need to change with the times

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<tonny> hhmm...

<ronnietucker> but guys, remember; i can't devote 8hrs a day, 5 days a week to this...

<tonny> what about the small thumbnails

<iMayKnow> this change seems to incorporate most things people had complaints about, so it's doubtful that we'll be changing a lot after this

<ronnietucker> we need to finalise a template, lock it so we get no more changes, then i can layout #2

<sampbar> yes but its gonna look weird having the same design every month :S and not changing stuff if it looks weird

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, I think you should offload some of the work to someone, if thats how you feel

<linuxgeekery> ronnietucker: is it possible to just get a sample page of the 'finalized' design for polling purposes?

<mrmonday> have another editor

<budi-baliwae> btw ron, can u give us the prototype of contents and editorial pages?

<ronnietucker> the work load at the moment isnt too bad but it will be if we keep making small changes to the templates every month

<sampbar> it should be a opensource editorial team... people help out in little bits

<tonny> ron r u design the page?

<ronnietucker> thats the only page prototype there is Budi

<sampbar> magazines change Fact

<tonny> sorry..

<ronnietucker> magazines change but not every issue!

<sampbar> they do... colours change, things are tweaked

<budi-baliwae> hmm.. i think its great if you also make a text only version

<topaspv> yes, permanence is good.

<ronnietucker> yes and they get paid a weekly wage for it!

<mrmonday> budi-baliwae, that will we hard work

<ronnietucker> ok, here's what i'm looking for :

<linuxgeekery> I'd say have the design changed (like we are right now) and stay with it

Action: sampbar shrugs... and keeps his mouth shut, opensource means people contribute and should be able to make slight changes themself

<mrmonday> sampbar, the magisn't open source...

<ronnietucker> by Monday/Tuesday we have a template that is LOCKED and gets no more changes for a while...

<mrmonday> sampbar, only to translators

<sampbar> mrmonday: if we are discussing opensource software shouldnt it be opensource?

<ronnietucker> (preferably Monday)

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<topaspv> ronnietucker, i agree.

<ronnietucker> we dont have software to give out sampbar

<linuxgeekery> ronnietucker: sounds good

<mrmonday> sampbar, there is no point of an OS emag

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<mrmonday> agreed to that

<ronnietucker> so you all agree that if i implement the above changes and we lock the template, you all agree hm?

<iMayKnow> yes

<sampbar> nope, but thats me

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<mrmonday> yes

<ronnietucker> no more changes for a while..... ?

<budi-baliwae> yes

<mrmonday> yes

<topaspv> yes

Nick change: Smokey49578 -> Smokey

<linuxgeekery> yes

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, allow us to have input, as you change it, so we can tweak it perfectly

<ronnietucker> ok, i'll implement the changes and put up a prototype with a few pages on the collab site soon

<linuxgeekery> k

<budi-baliwae> the important things is the box is not to small for tranlation

<mrmonday> right

<ronnietucker> but how? We'd need to sit here and constantly throw files back and forth?

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, lol

<iMayKnow> excellent. once you have that put up though we shoul set a deadline for people to get you comments by so you can had the design finalized by early 
in the week

<ronnietucker> look how long it took us to get that one page prototype last night?

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, we'll discuss this after you put it on the collab site

<ronnietucker> you imagine that with five times the people!

<mrmonday> agreed?

<ronnietucker> i'll implement the changes and up the new pages, from there we make more small tweaks but after that we NEED to lock it so i can begin #2

<mrmonday> ok

<mrmonday> next issue

<iMayKnow> ok

<mrmonday> what do we think about translating the website

<mrmonday> so that people can get to the site in their native tounge too?

<mrmonday> we would need volenteers of course

<iMayKnow> i can possibly help with a spanish translation

<topaspv> sounds nice. but i don't think there's a need for that. everyone understands "Download here"

<sampbar> not necessarily

<iMayKnow> but i'm not perfectly fluent so i'll probably need someone to at least proofread it if i do

<topaspv> i think that translating the page is luxury. translating the magazine is more important.

<mrmonday> topaspv, agreed

<iMayKnow> if we're going to translate the whole magazine each issue we can at least translate the website

<mrmonday> It was a suggestion someone had

<linuxgeekery> the thing is it would be a bit of a problem keeping up with all those translations... I would have to do a major wordpress update

<linuxgeekery> change how the site works

<iMayKnow> it's not going to be nearly as much to translate the website as it is to translate the issue each month

<mrmonday> it will be a lot of effort for linuxgeekery though

<mrmonday> so it is really up to him

<linuxgeekery> yes, but I'd have to use wordpress multiuser so every translation would be a different blog

<mrmonday> linuxgeekery, ?

<linuxgeekery> mrmonday: ^^

<Steve-T> Ok Im back

<linuxgeekery> the layout would be a bit different too

<mrmonday> linuxgeekery, put a link at the top of each page

<mrmonday> linuxgeekery, why?

<iMayKnow> ok, but if you change your mind i'm still willing to help :)

<tonny> correct

<mrmonday> linuxgeekery, just have the default blog as english, then flags at the top

<mrmonday> to change the blog

<topaspv> or include different languages via the wiki?

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<iMayKnow> we could be lazy and just include links to the google or altavista translations of the pages

<topaspv> haha..

<iMayKnow> even though those translations are usually pretty bad

<mrmonday> linuxgeekery, that would be an easy option for you ^^

<linuxgeekery> mrmonday: the flags at the top would link to something... I can't magically make the site switch languages, I'd have to create new blogs and 
have those translated

<linuxgeekery> heh, that would be nice and easy :)

<mrmonday> linuxgeekery, then do that...

<ronnietucker> its about time you got picked on lg   :D

<mrmonday> :P

<iMayKnow> heh

<topaspv> are you serious? do you really want to translate texts via those online translators?

<linuxgeekery> ronnietucker: :P

<mrmonday> linuxgeekery, just have the other blogs at /language/ or something

<mrmonday> and click the link to go to it...

<mrmonday> linuxgeekery, you only need the main page to be translated

<linuxgeekery> k

<mrmonday> we'll leave that up to you to decide

<linuxgeekery> mrmonday: are we doing altavista or human translation?

<mrmonday> linuxgeekery, human preferably

<mrmonday> next then

<mrmonday> the fourms

<topaspv> i don't know about other translations than en <-> ger, but... in this case the online translation is just rubbish

<mrmonday> *forums

<Steve-T> How about content ideas?

Topic changed on #fullcirclemagazine by linuxgeekery: Full Circle Meeting: forums

<mrmonday> do we want a place a ubuntuforums.com?

<mrmonday> *at

<topaspv> do you know what the forums should be about?

<mrmonday> the magazine

<mrmonday> for comments on articles, and suggestions

<linuxgeekery> if we host it on ubuntuforums, there's no point in having *buntu discussion - it's the rest of the forums

<mrmonday> should we inquire about it then?

<linuxgeekery> I already have... a week a go

<linuxgeekery> no response yet

<mrmonday> right

<mrmonday> linuxgeekery, who did you contact?

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<linuxgeekery> mrmonday: first, I contacted aysiu

<linuxgeekery> response: I'm actually not the person to contact about this. The proper way to ask for a subforum is to post an official request in the Request 
a 3rd party forum to ubuntu-geek.

<linuxgeekery> I d id

<linuxgeekery> did*

<linuxgeekery> no response yet, by reply or pm

<mrmonday> linuxgeekery, did you PM him or email him?

<mrmonday> oh

<mrmonday> k

<mrmonday> next then

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, we need you for this one

<mrmonday> The magazines license

<mrmonday> what should we use...

Topic changed on #fullcirclemagazine by linuxgeekery: Full Circle Meeting: license

<mrmonday> it is currently by-sa, but I think it should be by-nc-sa

<ronnietucker> sorry, messing with templates

<sampbar> public domain

<ronnietucker> by-sa means you can't sell it but can use the articles but only by giving full credit to the writer(s)

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, no

<mrmonday> thats nc

<linuxgeekery> mrmonday: by-nc-sa means you can't sell it, even to cover printing costs... etc

<mrmonday> ah

<mrmonday> you sure?

<ronnietucker> SA=  ShareAlike, hence you can take a loan of an article but must credit

<mrmonday> I'm looking at the licence now...

<mrmonday> it doesn't mention anything about selling it...

<mrmonday> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

<mrmonday> are we sure still?

<ronnietucker> the whole ethos with CC is that unless you specify you can't make profit

<mrmonday> ok

<mrmonday> fine then

<mrmonday> I think thats it now

<mrmonday> Any other issues?

<mrmonday> ronnietucker, any news on cloaks?

<budi-baliwae> i agree with mrmonday

<budi-baliwae> it should be http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

<ronnietucker> nothing on cloaks as yet

<mrmonday> OK then

<mrmonday> meeting over

<linuxgeekery> hold on

<mrmonday> ok

<linuxgeekery> anyone else have anything to comment on/say?

<linuxgeekery> before we end

<tonny> me

Nick change: zmigliozzi -> zmigliozzi[away]

<linuxgeekery> yes..

<sampbar> ...

<tonny> i work at publisher, i want take part to promote Fullciclemagz

<linuxgeekery> tonny: which publisher?

<tonny> www.spotbit.com

<mrmonday> no

<tonny> http://www.spotbit.com

<mrmonday> We can't...

<mrmonday> they won't work under linux

<linuxgeekery> I agree - sorry, but we've decided no :(

<mrmonday> not even n wine...

<mrmonday> *in

<mrmonday> tonny, if you can make them linux native we'll think about it

<tonny> ooh that's requirment

<mrmonday> Until then, sorry

<tonny> it's ok.. i will try to native linnux.

<mrmonday> ok

<mrmonday> anything else?

<budi-baliwae> Th ank s to : linuxge e k e ry for th e w e bs ite and .org nam e , m yk alRe b orn,

<budi-baliwae> uk ub untu and m rm onday for th e full circle logo.

<budi-baliwae> :D

<sampbar> whats with the spacing?

<mrmonday> BTW just before we end, does anyone know who registered fcm.com?

<budi-baliwae> linuxgeekery, and mrmonday always show up at page three every issue :D

<mrmonday> no one?

<mrmonday> ok

<mrmonday> meeting over