For minutes of previous meetings, please see DesktopTeam/Meeting.

Meeting Minutes

Present

Main Meeting

Eastern Edition

Apologies

Agenda

Announcements

Status Updates

Discussion

Outstanding actions from last meeting

Actions from this meeting

Partner Update

Kubuntu Update

Xorg Update

Translations Update

Release Bugs/Release Status

Archive Discussion

Discussed the user of PPAs versus using the archives early and often. Discussed X as a special case where widespread testing is needed, but where breakages cause a ton of work for bryce, even in development releases. Barring specific cases, the consensus was that we should strive to not things languish in PPAs, the sooner they get into archives the better. rickspencer3 is particularly concerned about possible schedule unpredictability brought about by unexpected difficulties in bring code from PPAs to archives, and the false sense of security and false sense of "doneness" that can occur when something makes it into a PPA.

Any other business

Activity reports

Alexander Sack (asac)

Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje)

Bryce Harrington (bryce)

Distro

X.org

General

Chris Cheney (calc)

Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)

done:

interested in helping

todo:

Ken VanDine (kenvandine)

Done:

Todo:

Luke Yelavich (TheMuso)

Accessibility

Audio

Martin Pitt (pitti)

Karmic spec drafting: all approved

Karmic feature work:

se dependencies

Other work done:

Merges: mine are all done

Sponsoring:

Robert Ancell (robert_ancell)

Sebastien Bacher (seb128)

* GNOME updates: gvfs

gnome-python-desktop tomboy gnome-screensaver

installation switched to gio, libgnomeui still pull it in though and xulrunner doesn't plan to switch to gio for the next version

switch to gtkbuilder for karmic, worked on patches for update-notifier (uploaded to karmic, thanks mvo!), poppler and nautilus-sendto

Till Kamppeter (tkamppeter)

Tony Espy (awe)

IRC Logs

[17:31] * rickspencer3 taps gavel
[17:31] <seb128> hello
[17:31] <awe> hey
[17:31] <asac> hi
[17:31] <bryce> heya
[17:31] <rickspencer3> kenvandine:
[17:32] <rickspencer3> shall we start? is this a quorum?
[17:32] <pitti> ken@vandine.org: hey... having irc issues
[17:32] <seb128> yes, pitti is around he was writing on some other channel some seconds ago
[17:32] <pitti> FYI
[17:32] <rickspencer3> heh
[17:33] <rickspencer3> ok, let's roll
[17:33] * rickspencer3 refreshes to check for new agenda items
[17:33] <rickspencer3> outstanding items from last meeting
[17:33] * pitti smuggles in a "GDM" topic
[17:34] <rickspencer3> paper cuts: they got 10 fixed last week, seemed to be a success, so great
[17:34] <rickspencer3> pitti: np, I'll that to the discussion section
[17:34] <kenvandine> sorry folks... technical difficulties Smile :)
[17:35] <rickspencer3> awe: did you review the audio spec for TheMuso?
[17:35] <awe> yea... i'll send him comments before this evening's meeting
[17:35] <rickspencer3> sweet
[17:35] <rickspencer3> two announcements:
[17:36] <rickspencer3> 1. if you haven't booked travel for the sprint, please do so today
[17:36] <rickspencer3> 2. a few of us are traveling to Desktop Summit
[17:36] <rickspencer3> I'm leaving tomorrow, a few are leaving on Thursday, right?
[17:36] <seb128> rickspencer3, "today"? is there any hurry?
[17:36] <rickspencer3> like robert_ancell is leaving Thursday
[17:36] * seb128 still not decided between sucking flight options
[17:37] <seb128> I'm travelling on friday for desktop summit
[17:37] <rickspencer3> seb128: "today" was probably unnecessarily dramatic, but it does get more expensive for some of us if we wait to long
[17:37] <seb128> I'm travelling on friday for desktop summit, landing in the afternoon
[17:37] <seb128> rickspencer3, ok
[17:37] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, yeah... mine jumped $200 over night while i thought about it..
[17:37] <kenvandine> booked now
[17:37] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: is arriving next Tuesday
[17:37] <rickspencer3> Riddell: when are you ariving?
[17:37] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, arriving monday afternoon
[17:38] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: ack, thanks
[17:38] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: partner update?
[17:39] <kenvandine> yeah
[17:39] <kenvandine> so ubuntuone packages are still being worked, dobey did a bit of a re-org to properly manage the packaging feedback he got in revu
[17:40] <kenvandine> that should be updated in revu today, hopefully we can get that reviewed quickly
[17:40] <kenvandine> dx team still hasn't communicated their iteration plans yet, but I do know fusa changes will land end of week
[17:40] <kenvandine> at least all the basic functionality needed for the new GDM
[17:40] <kenvandine> we need to decide if we want to go ahead and ship it with the new GDM
[17:40] <kenvandine> seb128, thoughts?
[17:41] <seb128> speaking about dxteam, apparently they wrote a new applet rather than adapting the gdm one?
[17:41] <pitti> why oh why?
[17:41] <kenvandine> i hadn't heard that... i knew it was a big change
[17:41] <kenvandine> using the dbus menus
[17:41] <seb128> hum, ted is not around and I guess that's a question for him rather
[17:42] <kenvandine> we can talk to him about that
[17:42] <kenvandine> they did the dbus menus work
[17:42] <kenvandine> which should be nice
[17:42] <seb128> "dbus menu"?
[17:42] <seb128> what is that?
[17:42] <kenvandine> might have required enough change to start over
[17:42] <kenvandine> so apps can export menus to other apps
[17:42] <artir> https://launchpad.net/dbusmenu
[17:42] <kenvandine> over dbus
[17:42] <rickspencer3> is there ambiguity regarding shipping new GDM?
[17:43] <seb128> how is that revelent to fuse and gdm update?
=== dpm is now known as dpm-afk
[17:43] <kenvandine> seb128, new fusa uses it
[17:43] <seb128> this dbusmenu things seems a different topic
[17:43] <pitti> I think new gdm is almost ready to go
[17:43] <seb128> well that's a technical decision from them not a justification to fork upstream imho
[17:43] <kenvandine> so it might have been enough work to just start over... i guess
[17:43] <kenvandine> not sure
[17:43] <kenvandine> yeah
[17:43] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, i don't think it is a question... it is more "are we ready next week"
[17:44] <kenvandine> or right after guadec Smile :)
[17:44] <seb128> especially that ted was speaking about using different namespacing for the applet
[17:44] <seb128> so requiring another user configuration migration on upgrade
[17:44] <kenvandine> sigh
[17:44] <kenvandine> ok... we need to talk to him
[17:44] <seb128> yeah
[17:44] <kenvandine> he didn't mention that part to me Smile :)
[17:44] <seb128> otherwise new gdm: help is welcome to fix upgrade issues
[17:44] <seb128> and pitti says there is a blocker gpm issue too
[17:45] <kenvandine> also, the ubuntuone karmic integration spec is approved
[17:45] <pitti> seb128: well, not really a "blocker" for uploading gdm
[17:45] <seb128> upgrade issue being that we can't restart gdm on upgrade because that would close running sessions
[17:45] <kenvandine> so we will have more MIRs coming, as the code is written
[17:45] <seb128> but the banner is broken until restart
[17:45] <pitti> seb128: I meant the weird session saving dialog
[17:45] <seb128> pitti, that's not my main concern, the concern is that gdm is not working until reboot
[17:46] <seb128> it just displays a banner error
[17:46] <rickspencer3> seb128: pitti: can we not live with gdm not working until reboot for the time being, for alpha users?
[17:46] <seb128> and clicking ok makes the same error come back
[17:46] <pitti> rickspencer3: WFM
[17:46] <seb128> rickspencer3, yeah we can
[17:46] <kenvandine> ok, i think that is all i have...
[17:46] <seb128> upload is mainly blocked on the fusa update right now
[17:46] <rickspencer3> so can we accelerate moving gdm out of the ppa and document the workaround?
[17:47] <rickspencer3> ah
[17:47] <seb128> without the patched fusa there is no way to reboot or stop your machine since we patch gnome-panel to not list those actions by default
[17:47] <pitti> seb128: I don't think we should care about that; can't we just use the upstream fusa for the time being?
[17:47] <rickspencer3> so shall kenvandine organize syncronizing those uploads, without blocking on finishing gdm?
[17:47] <pitti> oh, eww
[17:47] <seb128> we could drop that patch meanwhile too if required
[17:47] <pitti> seb128: *nod*
[17:48] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, i can do that
[17:48] <kenvandine> should we block on migration for fusa?
[17:48] <seb128> I'm not very comfortable uploading the new gdm just before traveling
[17:48] <kenvandine> or is migration not that important?
[17:48] <rickspencer3> ACTION: kenvandine to organize uploading new FUSA applet and new GDM, document workarounds
[17:48] <seb128> I can do that next week when coming back from GUADEC
[17:48] <kenvandine> seb128, lets do it right after we return
[17:48] <pitti> seb128: I'm not going, I can care about that if you wnat me to
[17:48] <pitti> like, care for the fallout
[17:48] <kenvandine> pitti, that is great Smile :)
[17:48] <pitti> but well, next week would suffice
[17:49] <seb128> pitti, ok, let's discuss that after meeting and upload tomorrow if we will comfortable
[17:49] <kenvandine> fusa changes will land at the end of this week
[17:49] <pitti> cool
[17:49] <seb128> extra people installing the ppa version would be welcome
[17:49] <seb128> just to confirm it somewhat works for several users
[17:49] <rickspencer3> who volunteers?
[17:49] <seb128> it's in the ubuntu-desktop ppa
[17:49] <hggdh> will do
[17:49] <rickspencer3> to try the gdm in the ppa?
[17:49] <rickspencer3> o/
[17:49] <pitti> running for several days, no probs except http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=585228
[17:49] <ubottu> Gnome bug 585228 in gnome-power-manager "immediately suspends on startup when lid is closed" [Major,Unconfirmed]
[17:50] <rickspencer3> not too many volunteers Smile :)
[17:50] <seb128> ok good, I think we have everything we need there
[17:50] <pedro_> I'll help with that as well
[17:50] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: are you running new gdm?
[17:50] <kenvandine> not anymore
[17:50] <kenvandine> i had a VM with it
[17:50] <kenvandine> but it got whacked
[17:50] <Riddell> rickspencer3: I'm arriving tomorrow evening
[17:50] <artir> seb128: tried it too in virtualbox, it works
[17:50] <kenvandine> i can get it going again
[17:50] <rickspencer3> ok, three of us should suffice though
[17:50] <seb128> yeah, we will do with what we have
[17:51] <jcastro> should I do a call for testin the new GDM?
[17:51] <kenvandine> jcastro, not really great timing...
[17:51] <seb128> jcastro, I think the some people volunteering here will be enough
[17:51] <kenvandine> since we are all leaving Smile :)
[17:51] <rickspencer3> ACTION: hggdh, rickspencer3, pedro_ to install new gdm from ubuntu-desktop ppa, report serious problems to seb128 and/or kenvandine
[17:51] <jcastro> ok
[17:51] <seb128> but thanks
[17:51] <rickspencer3> jcastro: but you could try it yourself
[17:52] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: was that the whole partner update?
[17:52] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, yup, the acceptance tests haven't changed
[17:52] <kenvandine> well, updated... no new info Smile :)
[17:52] <rickspencer3> hmm
[17:52] <rickspencer3> ok
[17:52] <kenvandine> what did i miss?
[17:52] <rickspencer3> thanks kenvandine
[17:52] <kenvandine> ok Smile :)
[17:52] <rickspencer3> Riddell: Kubuntu update?
[17:53] <Riddell> Kubuntu: KDE 4.3 RC 1 is in progress and will start uploading tonight
[17:53] <Riddell> Arora is now the default browser (pre-empting big discussion just started by suse on the topic)
[17:53] <Riddell> Kubuntu Tutorials Day was a big success, see logs https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuTutorialsDay
[17:53] <Riddell> New council members vote is now under way
[17:54] <Riddell> is all
[17:54] <rickspencer3> Riddell: how is the netbook version going?
[17:54] * rickspencer3 wants to try
[17:54] <Riddell> scott created the seeds, it's waiting on the changes to the image building scripts to get merged in for images
[17:54] <rickspencer3> sweet!
[17:54] <Riddell> and also on a settings package, currently it won't actually do anything different
[17:55] <rickspencer3> oh?
[17:55] <Riddell> tonio is working on that
[17:55] <asac> Riddell: can we remove konqueror now? or do you still need it installed?
[17:55] <Riddell> asac: it's still needed, it'll still be on the CDs for this release at least
[17:55] <Riddell> baby steps
[17:56] <asac> Riddell: so you have now two browsers by default
[17:56] <asac> whats up there?
[17:56] <asac> i know that there is something difficult ongoing, but two browsers by default sounds really odd.
[17:56] <Riddell> well politics and fanboys, removing Konqueror will get us flamed by various people (we have two file managers anyway)
[17:57] <Tm_T> Konqueror is not something one can remove without flaming
[17:57] <Tm_T> nor without issues in overall
[17:57] <rickspencer3> but having two applications that do the same thing because of fan boys doesn't sound very user-centric
[17:57] <asac> how does the user experience look like? what will be used by default if you click on a http link?
[17:57] <asac> how can the user switch the default
[17:58] <seb128> why can't use who want to use it install it from universe or something?
[17:58] <Riddell> arora currently, there's a System Settings module for default apps
[17:58] <Tm_T> asac: it's all in the systemsettings, clearly labeled
[17:58] <asac> Riddell: cant that be done in a way that installs konqueror on demand?
[17:58] <asac> e.g. when user select "konqueror" as default browser, it gets automatically installed
[17:58] <asac> like codecs etc.?
[17:59] <Riddell> it could.. but this is controvertial enough without upsetting more people
[18:00] <seb128> maybe we should install empathy and pidgin by default in ubuntu Wink ;-)
[18:00] <asac> ok... but to understand, you only have one "webbrowser" menu entry in "applications" (if something like that exists on kde) ... and userr configures what that means in system settings?
[18:00] <Riddell> asac: right
[18:00] <asac> or are there both browser in the menu?
[18:00] <seb128> (to avoid people complaining about us switching)
[18:00] <rickspencer3> ok, this sounds like a good discussion for #kubuntu-devel
[18:01] <asac> Riddell: do both at least us the same webkit lib?
[18:01] <Riddell> asac: no, that's the main problem with konqueror
[18:01] <asac> (to not duplicate seucitry=
[18:01] <Riddell> but we can't get rid of khtml, it's part of kdelibs
[18:02] <asac> ok. maybe we can review this later this cycle Wink ;)
[18:03] <asac> moving on?
[18:03] <rickspencer3> ACTION: ALL - provide feedback and help regarding Kubuntu browsers to Riddel in #kubuntu-devel
[18:03] <rickspencer3> thanks Riddell
[18:03] <rickspencer3> bryce: quick x update?
[18:04] <bryce> sire
[18:04] <bryce> er sure
[18:04] <bryce> * Merge Status:
[18:04] <bryce> + Mostly waiting on upstream releases at this point.
[18:04] <bryce> + 12 packages need merge/sync, out of 92 updates since Jaunty
[18:04] <bryce> + 7 packages have upstream releases but not yet in Debian
[18:04] <bryce> + -fglrx and -nvidia completed PPA testing. Now in Ubuntu.
[18:04] <bryce> + mesa, xorg merges completed git staging. Now in Ubuntu
[18:04] <bryce> + A new xserver RC is available. Will be merged soonish.
[18:04] <bryce> + git snapshots of -ati/KMS, & -nouveau/KMS are in PPAs
[18:04] * rickspencer3 in awe of bryce's typing speed
[18:05] <bryce> tjaalton just did the mesa and xorg uploads a few minutes ago, so y'all will be getting those soon
[18:05] <bryce> * X.org in Karmic is working well
[18:05] <bryce> + 2069 total open X bugs, down 38 since last week
[18:05] <bryce> + KMS on -intel is now on by default; relatively few bugs are being
[18:05] <bryce> reported about it.
[18:05] <rickspencer3> great news about KMS
[18:05] <pitti> I just fixed hal to not conflict with new xorg, so please don't complain Smile :)
[18:05] <asac> is the "lock up on screen powersave" bug fixed for i965?
[18:06] <bryce> this past week I've been arm deep in bugs, and things "feel" fairly stable. At the moment -nvidia feels the buggiest of our drivers, but that's nothing new
[18:06] <bryce> asac, bug#?
[18:06] <bryce> asac, generally we've been keeping the launchpad bug states for -intel really well up to date lately, so the lp bug status on that is probably accurate
[18:07] <asac> bryce: mdz had the same bug i think
[18:07] <asac> so i didnt file one
[18:07] <kenvandine> i thought mdz filed it
[18:07] <asac> yes he filed
[18:07] <kenvandine> i have the same problem
[18:07] <asac> thats why i didnt Wink ;)
[18:07] <kenvandine> me too Smile :)
[18:07] <bryce> well, we can talk more on specific bugs off-meeting, but in general it appears this latest -intel is doing quite well
[18:08] <kenvandine> ok
[18:08] <pitti> bryce: wrt, xorg-edgers, do you want to continue keeping it at the current pace? if so, shouldn't we just upload new versions to karmic directly, to get more testing?
[18:08] <rickspencer3> that's great news
[18:08] <bryce> poor mdz Wink ;-)
[18:08] <asac> bryce: doing quite well? it locks up my laptop if i dont type for a few minutes Wink ;)
[18:08] <asac> just kiddig
[18:08] <seb128> bug #388357
[18:08] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 388357 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "[i965] X freeze on karmic after resume from full screen application: i915_gem_retire_work_handler() / finish_task_switch()" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/388357
[18:08] <seb128> I think that's this one
[18:08] <kenvandine> asac, we just have to work faster Smile :)
[18:08] <rickspencer3> asac: that was unkind Wink ;)
[18:08] <pitti> -intel still freezes a lot for me after suspends, and DPMS off, and dpms off seems to kill it completely, but I'll follow up with that with upstream
[18:09] <bryce> pitti, yes - in fact that's what we've been doing. We've uploaded several things from xorg-edgers the past couple weeks
[18:09] <asac> pitti: if i suspend and close the lid quickly it freezes because its the powersave thing going on
[18:09] <asac> if i wait until its suspended -> no problem
[18:09] <rickspencer3> this seems like much better shape than even the end of Jaunty, where we had hard to reproduce freezing bugs during normal use
[18:09] <bryce> asac, ah yes; that one is reported upstream and has high priority for a fix, so I'm waiting for a patch from upstream as the next step
[18:10] <asac> ok ... /me keeps powersave disabled then
[18:10] <rickspencer3> thanks for the update bryce
[18:10] <bryce> asac, they asked for newer debugging tools, which I packaged, although doesn't appear mdz has run them, so if anyone is interested in pushing that bug forward, that's something you could work on
[18:10] <bryce> but we can talk post-meeting on bugs
[18:10] <asac> k
[18:11] <rickspencer3> also, you all should see the bug report for -intel graphics that bryce is producing ... it gives quite a good overview of the current bug situation
[18:11] <bryce> rickspencer3, should I post those reports to a public location?
[18:11] <rickspencer3> bryce: wouldn't hurt, i suppose
[18:12] <bryce> maybe I'll turn it into a web page; it's getting kind of unwieldy as it is
[18:12] * rickspencer3 nods
[18:12] <rickspencer3> put it on a cron job, and set an auto email to Yingying
[18:12] <bryce> hehe
[18:12] <bryce> well I like to do some housecleaning before sending it out. Wink ;-)
[18:12] <rickspencer3> perhaps some people would be interested in seeing the tools that you use to create such reports
[18:13] <bryce> anyway, that's it for X
[18:13] <bryce> sure
[18:13] <rickspencer3> thanks bryce
[18:13] <rickspencer3> ArneGoetje: translations update?
[18:13] <ArneGoetje> * Message sharing in Rosetta is done, translations in Jaunty and Karmic are shared now.
[18:13] <ArneGoetje> * Imports have started for Karmic.
[18:13] <ArneGoetje> * Contacted Kubuntu developers and asked them to review the current Kubuntu related translation templates in Rosetta. Based on their feedback, the Ubuntu Translation Coordinators team needs to approve new templates, disable obsolete ones and rename templates that have been moved.
[18:13] <ArneGoetje> * After the first round of imports is done, and Kubuntu translations are in reasonable shape we will generate initial language-packs for Karmic (hopefully next week).
[18:14] <ArneGoetje> [done]
[18:14] <rickspencer3> ArneGoetje: in general are we ahead of the curve or behind the curve in terms of translations compared to previous releases?
[18:15] <ArneGoetje> I think behind what was planned, due to message sharing development going on. But still not too late.
[18:15] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:15] <rickspencer3> thanks for the update ArneGoetje
[18:15] <ArneGoetje> np
[18:15] <rickspencer3> pitti: GDM?
[18:16] <pitti> already covered
[18:16] <pitti> was about when to upload the new one
[18:16] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:16] <pitti> I like to see that land RSN, so that DX team/themes etc. can be developed
[18:16] <kenvandine> pitti, i just saw a snag... dbusmenu will need to get uploaded too... new package
[18:16] <kenvandine> REVU, MIR, etc
[18:16] <pitti> Riddell: any progress on bug 339313?
[18:16] <pitti> this seems to be stuck somehow
[18:16] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 339313 in ubuntu-release-notes "Kubuntu Jaunty: Cannot Connect To Wireless Network with WEP shared key" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/339313
[18:17] <Riddell> pitti: well the new plasmoid is in so it's working as best as it can
[18:17] <Riddell> I can ask at GCDS when is a good time to take a new snapshot and do another update
[18:17] <pitti> Riddell: is that the "ppa package which works better" you referred to?
[18:17] <pitti> i. e. is that fixed now?
[18:17] <Riddell> yes
[18:17] <pitti> cool
[18:18] <Riddell> so it works now for far more people, but still some situations where it doesn't seem to
[18:19] <rickspencer3> moving on
[18:19] <rickspencer3> looks like the burndown chart is working, please don't forget to change the status of items when they are done
[18:19] <rickspencer3> I think I may tweak it to add a "prediction line"
[18:20] <rickspencer3> next is a discussion topic: PPAs versus archives
[18:20] <asac_> (/me back ... IRC gateway failed)
[18:20] <rickspencer3> I have two, possibly invalid, concerns:
[18:21] <rickspencer3> 1. It seems that moving some things from PPAs to universe has taken longer than predicted for some components ... making me concerned that we will find ourselves very behind if we wait too long
[18:21] <seb128> urg, wrong click
[18:22] <rickspencer3> 2. It seems that with PPAs, we are all running and testing a different desktop, which seems suboptimal from a testing POV, but also means that things may appear "done" when they are in PPAs, which may be premature
[18:22] <rickspencer3> so my question is ...
[18:22] <seb128> (what was 1?)
[18:22] <rickspencer3> (10:21:16 AM) rickspencer3: 1. It seems that moving some things from PPAs to universe has taken longer than predicted for some components ... making me concerned that we will find ourselves very behind if we wait too long
[18:22] <seb128> thanks
[18:22] <rickspencer3> so my question is ....
[18:22] <asac_> i agree that we should do most stuff directly in archive
[18:22] <rickspencer3> is there product in PPAs now that should be in archives?
[18:23] <rickspencer3> thoughts?
[18:23] <asac_> with a few exceptions: transitions that will cause unnecessary breakage on developers desktops
[18:23] <seb128> dunno if there is things in ppa to move right now
[18:23] <seb128> but I've discussed recently the xorg edger ppa with pitti and I feel it's suboptimal too
[18:23] <rickspencer3> I know about GDM, FFA 3.5, and xorg-edgers
[18:23] <seb128> I'm rather in favor of snapshoting versions directly to karmic if they are candidate to land there anyway
[18:24] <pitti> well, there's two cases
[18:24] <rickspencer3> I know that FF3.5 won't be ready for the archives until alpha 4
[18:24] <asac_> yeah. ffox 3.5 (the app) itself is in archive ... its just that i do the first transition steps in ppa to provide karmic users with a more or less smooth transition
[18:24] <pitti> stuff like the new U1 packages need to stay in PPAs until they are ready for upload and reviewed in REVU
[18:24] <rickspencer3> asac: ok, great
[18:24] * rickspencer3 directs my last comment to all three asacs
[18:24] <bryce> erf, the whole reason for doing the ppa's was due to complaints about stuff going directly into the archive without suitable testing
[18:24] <pitti> for newer versions like X.org or ffox, I agree that direct karmic uploads would be better
[18:24] * rickspencer3 now knows hos asac gets so much done
[18:25] <seb128> bryce, I don't think we should aim at having unstable stable
[18:25] <bryce> pitti, why is this?
[18:25] <seb128> it just slow us down
[18:25] <pitti> bryce: well, it doesn't particularly matter whether the version I revert to came from a PPA or from karmic?
[18:25] <bryce> seb128, how does it slow you down?
[18:25] <seb128> it diverts testing efforts
[18:25] <pitti> (in case it breaks)
[18:25] <seb128> you get bugs about different versions
[18:25] <seb128> you have to fix issues in 2 places when there is new changes required
[18:26] <rickspencer3> I think xorg was a special case for Karmic, in a way, as there was some sensitivity regarding intel after Jaunty
[18:26] <bryce> hmm, I really don't agree, I don't see the problems you guys are describing
[18:26] <seb128> you don't see users reporting bugs about different versions?
[18:26] <seb128> and me and pitti not running the same versions and not having the same issues?
[18:26] <bryce> it is little extra effort fixing things in both places, and it saves being endlessly pinged on IRC by people having problems with the newest stuff
[18:27] <bryce> seb128, no I'm saying it's not a huge concern to me that people are reporting bugs about different versions
[18:27] <rickspencer3> also, when x breaks, it becomes rather pressing for the user, even if they are a developer, and this impacts bryce quite abit
[18:27] <seb128> people not ready for running unstable versions should stay on jaunty
[18:27] <bryce> already I get people reporting bugs with a lot of different versions, aside from PPA
[18:27] <seb128> rickspencer3, you could say the same for glib, gtk, firefox, evolution, etc
[18:28] <seb128> linux
[18:28] <seb128> libc
[18:28] <asac_> seb128: we do that
[18:28] <asac_> we have -daily ppas
[18:28] <bryce> seb128, I disagree
[18:28] <rickspencer3> seb128: could be, I don't know ... but I know that bryce spends a huge amount of time helping people troubleshoot x
[18:28] <asac_> also we do staging for -security updates ... and now the ffox 35 transition
[18:28] <bryce> seb128, there are many people who want to run karmic to be able to test some classes of software, but who do not like it when the whole system breaks from under them
[18:28] <rickspencer3> bryce: when are you planning to move all the karmic stuff into karmic archives?
[18:29] <bryce> others like having the system break from under them... so they install edgers and work with us on bugs
[18:29] <seb128> so we should have ppa for pulseaudio too to not break sound, and for linux to not break whatever etc etc etc
[18:29] <seb128> well, so we are back to my question from the other day, is edger meant to be candidate versions for karmic or crack of the day?
[18:29] <pitti> bryce: so xorg-edgers is essentially autobuilt and not tested?
[18:30] <seb128> some people told me to test upgrades there because those are candidate for karmic
[18:30] <pitti> bryce: so perhaps a compromise would be to just upload snapshots more often then?
[18:30] <seb128> I'm fine with having crack of the days ppa for hackers
[18:30] <bryce> rickspencer3, general rule is as upstream puts out their final releases we merge into ubuntu, and just keep rolling the git snapshots
[18:31] <rickspencer3> bryce: it seems that perhaps edgers has served it's purpose for Karmic, and it's time to start focusing on the archives
[18:31] <bryce> pitti, xorg-edgers is *where* the testing is done. but yeah, stuff is not expected to be tested before it's uploaded there
[18:32] <pitti> so we are still all encouraged to have it enabled?
[18:32] <bryce> rickspencer3, but that's exactly what's going on... this week we uploaded -fglrx, -nvidia, xorg, and mesa. xserver is coming soon too
[18:32] <rickspencer3> bryce: ok
[18:32] <seb128> so I'm running karmic but I'm not testing what is useful and that bothers me somewhat
[18:32] <pitti> I guess for the full fun we also need to use the daily kernel images then, to get i915 updates
[18:33] <bryce> rickspencer3, we still need xorg-edgers to make it easy for people to test upstream for bug debugging purposes, which will enable us to cherrypick fixes
[18:33] <rickspencer3> I think that X was actually handled quite well given the Jaunty issues ... and I didn't mean for this to overly focus on bryce's work
[18:33] <rickspencer3> so perhaps bryce, pitti, and seb128 can discuss a mutually satisfactory course of action ... but
[18:33] <rickspencer3> are there *other* PPAs that we should be thinking of as well?
[18:33] <pitti> I'm mainly interested in when I should stop using xorg-edgers
[18:33] <seb128> not that I know about
[18:34] <bryce> pitti, alpha-3
[18:34] <pitti> I'd like to test as early as possible what will go into karmic
[18:34] <pitti> bryce: ah, thanks
[18:34] <seb128> I'm mainly interest to know why I should be adding ppas to my sources.list to be testing karmic
[18:34] <seb128> but right that's a out of meeting discussion
[18:34] <bryce> alpha-3 is where we're going to shift focus over more to stabilization, and most all the key X bits will be in place by then
[18:34] <pitti> bryce: I hope we'll also get .31 by then
[18:35] <pitti> that should help (or break Smile :) ) a lot
[18:35] <bryce> yeah that's the other thing... a lot of the X stuff has kernel dependencies now with KMS, that's easier and safer to deal with in a PPA
[18:36] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:36] <pitti> bryce: My fingers are itching to DKMSify i915 for git head testing Smile :)
[18:36] <pitti> but I guess we could just as well use the kernel PPA
[18:36] <rickspencer3> I think we ran a tad past the meeting time
[18:37] <rickspencer3> are there action items to take out of the PPA/archive discussion?
[18:37] <seb128> I would say "no" looking at the discussion
[18:37] <asac_> essence for meseems to be that main testing should be done in real archive and if you ask all desktop team members to enable a PPA you probably do something wrong Wink ;)
[18:37] <pitti> for me, it was "keep xorg-edgers until alpha-3 and disable it afterwards"
[18:38] <seb128> asac ++
[18:38] <seb128> I think there is something wrong if people using karmic are not testing karmic ....
[18:38] <asac_> ppas make sense for me for voluntarily staging and to prepare bits that you dont want to get tested by all Wink ;)
[18:38] <seb128> ie what is the point to run the unstable version if your feedback is about outdated versions anyway
[18:38] <rickspencer3> but so far as I can tell, with a few exceptions that is what has been happening
[18:38] <asac_> (and for non-motus for getting things reviewed)
[18:38] <pitti> I thought that was precisely what xorg-edgers is?
[18:38] <pitti> (not recommended to all karmic users)?
[18:39] <pitti> asac_: for review it's fine, *nod* (although REVU is better)
[18:39] <pitti> like, the U1 packages
[18:40] <asac_> pitti: yes. lets phrase different: ppa is good if you want to provide packages to users while its undergooing review in revu
[18:40] <asac_> Wink ;)
[18:41] <rickspencer3> ACTION: All: run edgers until alpha 3, and then disable
[18:41] <rickspencer3> any other business?
[18:41] <asac_> yes. anyone running jaunty or any other stable release?
[18:42] <rickspencer3> asac_: I'm running Jaunty as we speak
[18:42] <asac_> if so, please enable the https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-security/+archive/ppa ... i always need more testers for our security bits
[18:42] * rickspencer3 clicks
[18:42] <asac_> only bits that would go out to end users usually go there ... so its safe
[18:42] * awe clicks
[18:42] <pitti> jaunty? wasn't that an Ubuntu release we did a million years ago? Smile :-)
[18:42] <asac_> if you update daily and report in case suddenly firefox brakes, let me know quickly
[18:43] <asac_> otherwise no need to confirm or anything
[18:43] <bryce> pitti, I've excised it from my brain already
[18:43] <asac_> thanks!
[18:43] <pitti> thanks all
[18:43] <bryce> thanks
[18:43] <rickspencer3> ACTION: ALL install mozilla security update, report problems to asac
[18:43] <rickspencer3> bye all!
[18:43] <rickspencer3> thanks
=== asac is now known as asac
[18:43] * rickspencer3 taps gavel

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DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-06-30 (last edited 2009-07-01 00:16:48 by 97-126-118-105)