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Training - How to run a Packaging Jam, dpm 2010-03-05
1 <dpm> and hi everyone
2 <dpm> time to to have some more training action to get ready for the Global Jam!
3 <dpm> Today it's...
4 <dpm> Translations!
5 <dpm> Let's see who's here
6 <mhall119|work> o/
7 <pecisk> \o
8 <dpm> askhl, I hear you are in the Danish team :), are you guys going to have a translations jam as well?
9 <dpm> hey mhall119|work, heya pecisk :)
10 <pecisk> hey man
11 <pecisk> :)
12 <dpm> Is any of you guys going to have a translations jam during the UGJ?
13 <mhall119|work> I don't think so
14 <pecisk> definitely
15 <dpm> fantastic
16 <dpm> First, let me just quickly remind everyone about the Jam and the dates
17 <dpm> You'll find all the info you need on
18 <dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
19 <dpm> The jam is going to be from the 26th to the 28th of March, and if you're going to run a jam, remember to add it there:
20 <dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam/Events
21 <mhall119|work> and here: http://loco.ubuntu.com
22 <dpm> nice mhall119|work, thanks!
23 <dpm> (remember you can translate the LoCo Directory too!)
24 <mhall119|work> yes please
25 <dpm> hey kelemengabor, hey markjones, are the Hungarian and Welsh teams going to run a translations jam too? :)
26 <dpm> (btw, here's the link to translate the LoCo Directory: https://translations.launchpad.net/loco-directory)
27 <kelemengabor> dpm: not sure, only 3 people said that they would come :(
28 <pecisk> there is still time to reconsider :)
29 <kelemengabor> perhaps you can tell, how should I motivate people to come :)
30 <dpm> 3 translators can translate a lot of stuff, perhaps some other people can attend remotely
31 <markjones> dpm: if there's enough interest and I have time to arrange it
32 * pecisk have about three active members in a team and somehow we are doing ok :)
33 <dpm> kelemengabor, sometimes setting goals for a Jam helps to motivate people, for example:
34 <dpm> * To have ubuntu-docs or kubuntu-docs fully translated after the jam
35 <dpm> * To have the Ubuntu Slideshow in the installer fully translated after the jam
36 <dpm> * To have all the applications in the first page of http://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu translated
37 <dpm> * To translate the package descriptions of the Featured category in Software Center
38 <dpm> * etc.
39 <dpm> You should definitely check out Nightmonkey if you are setting a goal for translations of package descriptions. I'm sure kelemengabor can only talk wonders about it :)
40 <pecisk> those translations are huge :)
41 <dpm> For those who don't yet know it, I talked about Nightmonkey some days ago: http://davidplanella.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/translating-software-descriptions-with-nightmonkey/
42 <dpm> pecisk, yeah, that's where a tool like NM comes handy
43 <dpm> so you can easily find the most important things to translate
44 <dpm> and focus the little spare time we have on really visible translations :)
45 <umi> dpm: does NM help you to find out if you should translate the package in Rosetta or in the upstream?
46 <dpm> umi, NM is used not to translate applications, but the descriptions of applications. These are the strings that are shown, for example, in Software Center when you look at an app. There is only one updtream for those translations, and that is Debian
47 <dpm> and NM implements functionality to send them back upstream
48 <umi> dpm: ok, sounds good
49 <umi> thank you
50 <dpm> umi, you're welcome. You'll find more info on Ubuntu Translations and upstreams at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream
51 <dpm> perhaps that can help
52 <dpm> Anyway, I see some translations people around, but let's talk a bit about how translating ubuntu works, for the benefit of folks who are new to translations
53 <dpm> In any case, I want to keep the conversation going and not let this be a "formal" training session, so please, feel free to chip in and ask questions or share your experiences from past jams, if you have already been in one
54 <dpm> we'll focus on translations, but as translations are only a part of the jam, most of your experiences probably apply to all kind of jams.
55 <dpm> Anyway, the important part to remember, the message here, is that you're jamming to have fun,
56 <dpm> and to make Ubuntu rock along the way.
57 <dpm> Translation jams are very special: you're meeting to make Ubuntu accessible to thousands of people in your language.
58 <dpm> For some teams it even means, it is the only OS in which they can have their language available.
59 <dpm> As some of you might know, translation in Ubuntu is made possible through the wonderful Ubuntu translation teams:
60 <dpm> https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
61 <dpm> The members of those teams are the people responsible for reviewing and submitting translations through Launchpad:
62 <dpm> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu
63 *** jamalta-afk is now known as jamalta
64 <dpm> Before or after the Jam is a good time to get involved in those teams, and perhaps apply to join them.
65 <dpm> But do not worry: everyone can submit translation suggestions without having to be in one of the translation teams,
66 <dpm> so that you can contribute easily since day 1.
67 <dpm> The members of the translation team will act as reviewers to see that your suggestion is ok, doesn't contain any typos, etc.
68 <dpm> So it's important to get in touch with them once you've done a bunch of suggestions,
69 <dpm> so that they are aware of them, and they can give you some feedback.
70 <dpm> This feedback will greatly help you on your way to becoming an Ubuntu translator
71 <dpm> It is always a good thing to make sure there is at least a member of the Launchpad translation team at the Jam,
72 <dpm> be it physically or remotely,
73 <dpm> so that he or she can accept translation suggestions on the spot, or provide some feedback for improvements.
74 <dpm> But don't worry if no one from the translations team in Launchpad can turn up: you can contact them later on to give them a heads up on the bunch of suggestions you'll have done during the Jam :)
75 <dpm> so they can review them
76 <dpm> So, do get in touch with them before and after the Jam
77 <dpm> You'll find the team for your language at:
78 <dpm> https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
79 <dpm> with info on how you can contact them
80 <dpm> If there isn't a team for your language, you might want to start one:
81 <dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/StartingTeam
82 <dpm> The other useful thing in a Translations Jam, as I was mentioning earlier, is to set up goals
83 <dpm> So you might want to set up a goal for translating a particular application, to review all pending suggestions in your language, to fully translate Ubuntu Docs... you name it
84 <dpm> Gobby (apt-get install gobby) or a wiki can be very useful in coordinating these goals
85 <dpm> err, 'sudo apt-get install gobby'
86 <dpm> and writing down which translations are ready and need review, who is in charge of which translation, etc.
87 <dpm> how are you guys in translation teams coordinating translations? Most of the teams I think use the wiki
88 <kelemengabor> the wiki is the simplest, we have this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HungarianTeam/TranslationCoordination
89 <dpm> yeah, we use the wiki as well in the Catalan team
90 <dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCatalanTranslators/Llistat
91 <dpm> during the jam it is also useful to use something more dynamic you can edit on the spot, so gobby or any other collaborative tool come in very handy
92 <dpm> Coming back to the goals, just a note:
93 <dpm> In my experience, though, you shouldn't get too fixed on these goals: it's fantastic to achieve them, but
94 <dpm> sometimes in jams you get a lot of new people coming along,
95 <dpm> and you spend quite a lot of time telling them about Ubuntu, about how the translations process goes, etc.
96 <dpm> So you just have to remember that this training, more social part is also very important.
97 <dpm> It is very rewarding to get new contributors to your translation team,
98 <dpm> to allow users in your language to have a much better localized experience
99 <dpm> and it's fun, too :)
100 <dpm> Ok, I think that was most of what I wanted to cover for today
101 <dpm> Does anyone have any questions? Or would you like to share some experiences from previous jams you've been to?
102 <kelemengabor> yep
103 <kelemengabor> we did some jams since 2007
104 <pecisk> hardest is to nail terminology
105 <dpm> wow, we've got some veterans here :)
106 <kelemengabor> and my experience was that lots of people came once, and this was about the last time we heard from them
107 <kelemengabor> and with time, less and less
108 <kelemengabor> I guess that this was because we (ok, I) saw the events
109 <dpm> pecisk, actually, that's a good point: a Jam can also be a good opportunity to work on translation guidelines or terminology
110 <pecisk> and grammar rules, because sometimes you have specific rules to translated sentence parts
111 <kelemengabor> like "we do something extraordinary with the help of the community"
112 <pecisk> yeah, because you can translate alone and that's fine, but it is rather hard to coordinate grammar/term efforts trough net
113 <kelemengabor> but this seems not to work
114 <pecisk> kelemengabor: well, I fully agree, and I have understood why it is so
115 <pecisk> translation is hard, good translation is very hard
116 <kelemengabor> sure
117 <pecisk> in my country even commercial translations are usually so screwed up
118 <kelemengabor> and asking people to come and work hard is not a good idea :(
119 <pecisk> well
120 <pecisk> that's why we aim this usually at very young and patriotic people
121 <pecisk> who have lot of time and actually a change to believe idea
122 <dpm> kelemengabor, what about people from the LoCo not usually working on translations? In the last jam, we had people not generally contributing to translations but to other areas. We all together managed to translate the ubiquity slideshow. Some of them have not translated since then, but there'll be coming back to help out a bit again
123 <pecisk> kelemengabor: also I can suggest to involve newcomers at translation testing first
124 <dpm> kelemengabor, another idea is to combine the activities. Testing and Upgrading jams are "lighter" than e.g. packaging jams
125 <kelemengabor> we had some time ago such people on jams, but they lost their interest in translation
126 <kelemengabor> so they stick to their usual activities
127 <dpm> and combining the activities may help people trying new stuff
128 <kelemengabor> well, that may work...
129 <dpm> pecisk's has a good point as well, getting people identifying errors or untranslated strings might help as well.
130 <dpm> it's relatively easy - although I know the hard part then is to make them translatable if it's a bug :)
131 <kelemengabor> but I'm not a tester, and I don't know if there are people in my LoCo that are familiar with that
132 <kelemengabor> hm, translation testing is good too
133 <kelemengabor> I think the last time we did something like this
134 <pecisk> yeah, because it is good way to make them see that it makes sense
135 <kelemengabor> the job was to read the official docs and find errors in it
136 <pecisk> usually commercial apps are badly translated and everyone ends up using english version anyway
137 <pecisk> but if you show people that they can actually improve things
138 <pecisk> instead of trashing
139 <pecisk> it works nicely
140 <dpm> that's why we love Open Source :)
141 <pecisk> exactly
142 <umi> and it's a good chance to show the newcomers that they should feel responsibility about the quality of their translations
143 <pecisk> that's too :)
144 <dpm> umi, yeah, good point too. Basically it's a good opportunity to socialize and talk about these things
145 <kelemengabor> pecisk: well, here commercial apps have good quality translations, only those suck that are localized by hobbysts :)
146 <pecisk> kelemengabor: not in my country :)
147 <kelemengabor> well, easier for you :)
148 <dpm> kelemengabor, also other kind of testing, not only proofreading. It is relatively easy, but you need to be able to understand English (the test cases are in English)
149 <dpm> we've got the localization test cases as well
150 <dpm> let me dig out the link to the blog post I wrote a few days back...
151 <kelemengabor> dpm: yeah, but there are only about 5 of them, is this not a problem?
152 <kelemengabor> at least, there were...
153 <dpm> first the link... -> http://davidplanella.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/help-localization-testing-with-the-iso-tracker/
154 <dpm> kelemengabor, yeah, there are 5 or 6, but it's best if they could be tested in all languages
155 <dpm> people can also propose new ones, if necessary
156 <kelemengabor> dpm: a few cycles ago, I got some bug reports from Suse people, against Gnome, they seemed to check every single menu and dialog box and the like for translation errors
157 <dpm> and they can even help testing in other languages, the last test case is in Chinese, Japanese and Korean, translated so everyone can help :)
158 <kelemengabor> perhaps we could have tests this detailed
159 <kelemengabor> about most of the Ubuntu-specific apps
160 <kelemengabor> this would need a lot of manpower, of course...
161 <dpm> kelemengabor, that's very interesting actually. We should talk about this in more detail on #ubuntu-translators or on the mailing list. We did have a similar discussion on UDS about using Mago for something similar, but we focused on getting the set of install test cases as a starting point. I'd love to expand the test cases and make them more useful...
162 <kelemengabor> (I'm not saying that the bugs I got from Suse people were reported by volunteers :))
163 <dpm> :)
164 <dpm> anyway, I think we can leave it here for today. If anyone has got any questions later on or at any other time, feel free to ping me. I'm always here and on #ubuntu-translators, amongst other channels
165 <dpm> Thanks a lot to everyone for listening and for the participation
166 * dpm hugs everyone in true dholbach's style
167 <pecisk> :)
168 * dholbach hugs dpm truly back
169 <umi> dpm: thank you
170 <umi> bye
171 <dpm> Remember we've got more training sessions in the next few days. Check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam#Training Sessions for more
172 <dpm> we'll have another one on translations on the 11th
173 <askhl> dpm: I'm actually at work, so pardon the slow response time. We are trying to arrange a translation jam, but I don't think it will quite coincide with UGJ
174 <askhl> Anyway, I'll probably take a closer look at the discussion log later :)
175 <dpm> askhl, don't worry about response time, I know everyone is busy :) Thanks for letting me know, that's awesome. While it is cool to coincide with the rest of the world for the UGJ, any time is good for a Jam! :-)