Agenda

Meeting Agenda

Agenda Links and Notes

Meeting Agreements

New members

3 new members:

• Chris Druif MrChrisDruif ,

• Jens Leineweber NRWlion

• and Joseph James Mills bobweaver

tag pages

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag

• find pages that can be deleted
  • 8.04 Desktop went EOL last month,
  • 8.04 Server, review pages marked for deletion for server relevance!

  • ShipIt is a service no longer offered

Style guide

https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-ubuntu-docs-goals-oneiric

• update style guide - common style for pages (teams, logs),
  • ToC,
  • chapters,
  • contact,
  • copyright - CC-by-SA 3.0,
  • categories,
  • tags,

Mallard xml

http://projectmallard.org/about/learn/index.html

• suggested to hack on fckeditor that could produce mallard and moin wiki format
• [ACTION] phillw will collar someone from the docs team to teach Mallard

help.ubuntu.com

Summer of Documentation 2011

• reserve pages to be reworked
• may recieve requests to be updated

Regular meetings

• in principle next meeting in 2 weeks
  • UndiFineD will set up a doodle, that fits us and the fridge

Meeting Log

[16:01:59] <UndiFineD> hello everyone, who is here ?
[16:02:03] * head_victim waves
[16:02:04] <xardas008> me
[16:02:06] <AndrewMC> me
[16:02:25] <UndiFineD> and not MrChrisDruif
[16:02:25] * MrChrisDruif me
[16:02:28] <UndiFineD> :P
[16:02:32] <coalwater> im just gonna see how a meeting is like lol :D
[16:02:37] <UndiFineD> #topic New members
[16:02:40] <MrChrisDruif> A single /me doesn't work
[16:02:43] <MrChrisDruif> <_<"
[16:02:47] <paultag> [TOPIC] MrChrisDruif
[16:02:53] <UndiFineD> heh
[16:03:03] <paultag> #topic is nothing :)
[16:03:19] <MrChrisDruif> UndiFineD; it's [TOPIC] New members
[16:03:35] <paultag> Oh sorry, UndiFineD
[16:03:37] <paultag> my fauly
[16:03:42] <paultag> sed s/y/t/g

New members

[16:03:52] <UndiFineD> we have 3 new members: Chris Druif [[MrChrisDruif]] , Jens Leineweber [[NRWlion]] and Joseph James Mills [[bobweaver]]
[16:04:11] <MrChrisDruif> UndiFineD; Topic hasn't changed
[16:04:24] <UndiFineD> [TOPIC] New members
[16:04:28] <UndiFineD> we have 3 new members: Chris Druif [[MrChrisDruif]] , Jens Leineweber [[NRWlion]] and Joseph James Mills [[bobweaver]]
[16:04:34] <UndiFineD> welcome
[16:04:39] <MrChrisDruif> Thanks :)
[16:04:46] <xardas008> welcome
[16:04:53] <MrChrisDruif> Thanks again :)
[16:05:04] <UndiFineD> after some time in the dark, it is great to pick this team up again and get going
[16:05:16] <MrChrisDruif> Indeed, +1

tag pages

[16:05:32] <UndiFineD> [TOPIC] tag pages
[16:06:02] <UndiFineD> One of our first and important works will be to tag pages
[16:06:21] <UndiFineD> as requested, find pages that can be deleted
[16:06:37] <MrChrisDruif> Like 8.04 and older?
[16:06:55] <head_victim> As long as it's not something that can be reworked to make it relevant
[16:07:02] <UndiFineD> yes, 8.04 went EOL last month
[16:07:23] <UndiFineD> so they should be save to be marked
[16:07:50] <MrChrisDruif> As long as there's no relevant info on it of course
[16:08:04] <eaespinoza0> I'm here
[16:08:20] <MrChrisDruif> Great, you've made it eaespinoza0
[16:08:22] <UndiFineD> however, any admins around ? we can not delete them immediatly, we still need to see if there is important information on them that needs to be rewritten for current and future page versions
[16:08:36] <MrChrisDruif> That reminds me...
[16:08:46] <head_victim> UndiFineD: I was looking at becoming and admin but not one yet
[16:09:44] <UndiFineD> well, with the big clean ups we have at hand, it might be safer not to have that right just yet
[16:10:41] <UndiFineD> other things we are looking for are for example: pages that mention shipit
[16:11:12] <xardas008> that should be easily done by searching for that keyword
[16:11:16] <UndiFineD> just comment those things out I think
[16:11:16] <MrChrisDruif> It should refer to the ShipIt page is what I am thinking. No need to duplicate data
[16:11:43] <xardas008> i found a paragraph just yesterday
[16:11:45] <MrChrisDruif> It still exist right? But no longer free afaik
[16:11:52] <UndiFineD> are there any more of those silly things everyne forgot about ?
[16:12:00] <head_victim> MrChrisDruif: shipit as it was is gone, you can buy them through the store is my understanding
[16:12:52] <UndiFineD> overall, there are +4000 community wiki pages
[16:12:57] <MrChrisDruif> How do you mean UndiFineD ?
[16:13:07] <UndiFineD> I do not expect them to be done overnight
[16:13:29] <UndiFineD> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UndiFineD/documentation
[16:13:31] <xardas008> ok shipit seem to be just 4 pages
[16:13:34] <UndiFineD> I did that in a week
[16:13:39] <MrChrisDruif> Just have them ready at next meeting ;)
[16:14:24] <eaespinoza0> may I ask what is shipit?
[16:14:56] <head_victim> UndiFineD: Tagging makes it easier for those of us who don't have lots of time to trawl to get in and make changes
[16:15:38] <DraZoro> eaespinoza0: A free ubuntu cd service which Conanical use to provide
[16:15:52] <UndiFineD> now what I started to do there was marking nearly every page with tags: <> <> <>
[16:16:07] <UndiFineD> that is NOT the way, so I corrected myself
[16:16:43] <UndiFineD> instead we really should work here with the documentation team on creating and refreshing pages
[16:16:59] <UndiFineD> preferrable in mallard xml format
[16:17:33] <MrChrisDruif> So we do not mark the pages, but instead work on them?
[16:17:43] <MrChrisDruif> Work on those that have been tagged*
[16:18:07] <UndiFineD> well, you do not want to leave some 4000 pages all hooked up with tags that they need altering
[16:18:17] <UndiFineD> it is not very community friendly
[16:18:40] <MrChrisDruif> xD
[16:19:14] <MrChrisDruif> But what I said was correct?
[16:19:22] <UndiFineD> instead pick a (few) pages for reservation and rework them as part of the Summer of Documentation
[16:20:39] <UndiFineD> by placing those pages on the SoD list you mark them
[16:20:44] <UndiFineD> so yes MrChrisDruif
[16:21:22] <MrChrisDruif> Alright, I think that this is clear, maybe move to the next topic?
[16:21:23] <UndiFineD> any comments or questions ?
[16:21:39] <MrChrisDruif> And thanks for explaining UndiFineD :)

Style guide

[16:22:21] <UndiFineD> [TOPIC] Style guide
[16:22:33] <eaespinoza0> [AGREED]
[16:23:45] <UndiFineD> the documentation team is wanting to rework their style guide, great, Mallard has some default styles that are listed in some UDS blueprint that I forgot to copy
[16:24:19] <UndiFineD> I can look it up but would taks me some time
[16:24:29] <MrChrisDruif> eaespinoza0; Those [COMMAND] things are for the chair, you don't need to use them :)
[16:24:38] <eaespinoza0> ok
[16:24:52] <UndiFineD> I will send that off on the ML latoron if thats ok
[16:25:01] <xardas008> ok
[16:25:05] <MrChrisDruif> Sure I guess :)
[16:25:23] <eaespinoza0> what's ML latoron?
[16:25:32] <UndiFineD> it has some mentionings like copyright, email etc
[16:25:40] <MrChrisDruif> eaespinoza0; ML = Mailing-list
[16:25:49] <UndiFineD> eaespinoza0, Mailing list - later on
[16:25:55] <MrChrisDruif> Latoron should be later on
[16:26:04] <eaespinoza0> understand!
[16:26:26] <eaespinoza0> it's ok for me

Mallard xml

[16:26:34] <UndiFineD> [TOPIC] Mallard xml
[16:26:52] <MrChrisDruif> But the doc team is changing/updating it's style?
[16:27:27] <UndiFineD> now my guess is most of us do not know what mallard is exactly or how to write it, even I who looked into it, would prefer some lessons
[16:27:51] <eaespinoza0> agree!
[16:27:56] <UndiFineD> MrChrisDruif, yes, but it is already pretty well defined, just not very visible
[16:28:12] <MrChrisDruif> Alright, so we can read all about it in the ML?
[16:28:21] <xardas008> i hear of it the first time
[16:28:28] <xardas008> but xml is not that difficult
[16:28:35] <UndiFineD> is there anyone who does know how to write mallard and could give us some help in that ?
[16:28:53] <MrChrisDruif> Because of the agenda I heard about it before today
[16:28:53] <UndiFineD> there is http://projectmallard.org/about/learn/index.html
[16:29:15] <MrChrisDruif> Maybe we could ask someone from #ubuntu-doc
[16:29:44] <head_victim> UndiFineD: so where does mallard sit in the scheme of things, I assumed, probably incorrectly, it was just a way of putting help files in Ubuntu but from what you're saying it is actually a way of writing wiki pages?
[16:31:00] <UndiFineD> head_victim, mallard is the chosen way of writing documentation, it can be converted to wiki or system documentation or ubuntu manual
[16:31:03] <MrChrisDruif> And what is the effect of mallard to the wiki pages? New syntax?
[16:31:21] <UndiFineD> so, once written, we can transform it to all of them
[16:31:29] <MrChrisDruif> Alright, so it's like a unified base for all three systems in place? :)
[16:31:47] <MrChrisDruif> *that are in place*
[16:32:19] <UndiFineD> I actually suggested, to hack on fckeditor that could produce mallard and moin wiki format
[16:32:37] <xardas008> seems that mallard uses internally the functionallity of xslt
[16:33:02] <UndiFineD> xardas008, might be, did not read into the finer details yet
[16:33:26] <MrChrisDruif> [LINK] http://projectmallard.org/about/learn/index.html
[16:33:31] <MrChrisDruif> Thanks MootBot
[16:33:40] <xardas008> xslt is an xml processor for transforming so this was my first thought
[16:33:41] <UndiFineD> :)
[16:34:05] <UndiFineD> yeah that seems quite logic xardas008 , thanks
[16:34:47] <UndiFineD> well, I think we need to find ourselves a teacher here
[16:35:12] <xardas008> looks not very difficult on the first sight
[16:35:15] * phillw will collar someone from the docs team to get in touch.
[16:35:22] <UndiFineD> jbicha ?
[16:35:36] <MrChrisDruif> Thanks phillw, I didn't want it on my plate just yet :)
[16:35:54] <phillw> is oaky, I'm on thier ML anyway :)
[16:35:55] <UndiFineD> thank phillw

help.ubuntu.com

[16:36:19] <UndiFineD> [TOPIC] help.ubuntu.com
[16:36:20] <MrChrisDruif> [ACTION] phillw will collar someone from the docs team to teach Mallard
[16:36:26] <MrChrisDruif> Meh...
[16:36:44] <UndiFineD> as I understand this will be one of the primairy sources of information in english and for LoCo languages
[16:36:48] <MrChrisDruif> UndiFineD; copy my action post
[16:37:09] <UndiFineD> [ACTION] phillw will collar someone from the docs team to teach Mallard
[16:37:19] <MrChrisDruif> Thanks :)
[16:38:24] <UndiFineD> that would likely look something like this: https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/nl/index.html (404)
[16:38:24] <MrChrisDruif> Source of that info? As I think it's odd in my eyes that the LoCo teams would use it.
[16:38:43] <UndiFineD> this comes from UDS too
[16:38:59] <MrChrisDruif> Or would it just move all the LoCo pages to the help.u.c place?
[16:39:09] <head_victim> MrChrisDruif: the loco reference is for non english speaking loco's
[16:39:25] <MrChrisDruif> head_victim; That's why I thought it was odd
[16:39:34] <UndiFineD> the default english pages would be put up for translation, and offers the benefit of a central repository for all languages help
[16:40:01] <UndiFineD> I do not think this is a question any more and will happen
[16:40:13] <jbicha> UndiFineD: sorry I've got too much going on this week
[16:40:30] <UndiFineD> it allows for online help from the desktop applications
[16:40:34] <MrChrisDruif> That would be nice, but a lot of the doc items are already translated? The docs supplied with the installation for instance?
[16:40:36] <UndiFineD> jbicha, thats ok
[16:41:05] <jbicha> http://projectmallard.org/ and there's a decent amount of gnome help in the format already, just check the source code and copy the good parts
[16:41:20] <jbicha> yikes, it's a bot
[16:41:26] <UndiFineD> heh
[16:41:55] <MrChrisDruif> Only problem was that it recieved a [LINK] without the command ;)
[16:42:20] <UndiFineD> MrChrisDruif, the current documentation loco teams have, they can keep it, but would likely become out of date in the future
[16:42:53] <MrChrisDruif> Or maybe a good opportunity to let the LoCo help with the move?
[16:43:08] <MrChrisDruif> Maybe even get some extra admins? O:-)
[16:43:14] * MrChrisDruif is hopeful ;)
[16:43:20] <UndiFineD> I suggested that too, that the loco's get help transforming
[16:45:20] <UndiFineD> mmm, depending on the new structure, we might need to reform the community part as well
[16:45:33] <UndiFineD> just thought of this
[16:45:36] <head_victim> New structure of what?
[16:45:49] <MrChrisDruif> Reform the community?
[16:45:53] <MrChrisDruif> New structure?
[16:45:56] <UndiFineD> being relative the same as the official help
[16:46:28] <UndiFineD> https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/nl/index.html (404)
[16:46:40] <UndiFineD> is what I think it may look like
[16:46:45] <UndiFineD> the url that is
[16:46:52] <MrChrisDruif> UndiFineD; That's a 404 with me
[16:47:01] <MrChrisDruif> As in not findable
[16:47:07] <xardas008> it was just an example for the url not the page
[16:47:54] <MrChrisDruif> That way the docs would get VERY version dependent =-O
[16:47:56] <UndiFineD> currently we have pages named like JapaneseFontsSetup
[16:48:26] <UndiFineD> bad example, as it may have 2 meanings
[16:48:53] <UndiFineD> but might need to be renamed to 11.04/jp/fonts/setup
[16:49:10] <spynappels> Does that mean that there may be multiple versions of a page?
[16:49:14] <MrChrisDruif> Maybe without the version
[16:49:24] <spynappels> one version for each supported release?
[16:49:30] <MrChrisDruif> And explain possible difference on the page
[16:49:32] <spynappels> or can they be linked?
[16:49:50] <spynappels> like a "symlink"
[16:49:55] <xardas008> when i understood that correct it should be an online help for the programs in ubuntu? So it is by default version independent
[16:49:55] <MrChrisDruif> Or redirect from the new page to the old if things haven't changed
[16:49:57] <UndiFineD> spynappels, there is <> :)
[16:50:23] <MrChrisDruif> Spynappels?
[16:50:29] <spynappels> yes?
[16:50:45] <MrChrisDruif> Ow....never noticed it was your nick, sorry :)
[16:50:53] <spynappels> no prob
[16:51:00] <UndiFineD> often the best way here, is to recreate the pages and mark the old ones for deletion with comment pointing to the new url
[16:51:06] <MrChrisDruif> UndiFineD; So just include the older page?
[16:51:45] * MrChrisDruif doesn't get it. Recreate the page, mark old onces for deletion?
[16:52:02] <UndiFineD> JapaneseFontsSetup to 11.04/jp/fonts/setup
[16:52:05] <spynappels> Then would it be an idea to maintain a master page with all pertinent information and include that with any version specific changes/additions?
[16:52:36] <UndiFineD> page JapaneseFontsSetup is tagged for deletion and in comment there is a pointer to the new 11.04/jp/fonts/setup
[16:52:54] <UndiFineD> this is not the greatest example
[16:53:33] <UndiFineD> spynappels, that is why we have our Summer of Documentation project :)
[16:53:51] <UndiFineD> you mark a pages as yours in remake
[16:54:29] <MrChrisDruif> I think it's better to redirect then to delete
[16:54:57] <MrChrisDruif> That way when people have bookmarked a page they get to the new page instead of an empty page
[16:55:04] <xardas008> or maybe only delete after support time is over?
[16:55:12] <phillw> +1
[16:55:28] <MrChrisDruif> phillw; Yeah, I learn quickly ;)
[16:55:31] <UndiFineD> yeah, that might be a great idea
[16:56:03] <spynappels> @xardas008 That seems a reasonable suggestion, natural wastage will get rid of the pages eventually anyway
[16:56:16] <jbicha> I don't think putting a version number as part of every page's title is a good idea
[16:56:30] <phillw> I am loathe to delete a page. If it is a couple of years out of date, then yeah.
[16:56:53] <head_victim> jbicha: I concur, it will require a large effort each release to check, confirm  and copy each page for every release
[16:56:54] <jbicha> you could use a category & a table of contents heirarchy to mark a set of pages for a particular version
[16:56:57] <phillw> but redirects are the best way.
[16:57:01] <jbicha> that way it could be in multiple versions easily
[16:57:05] <MrChrisDruif> +1 on jbicha
[16:57:06] <UndiFineD> jbicha, it would make community more compatible with the official help
[16:57:33] <UndiFineD> jbicha, that is also true
[16:57:44] <jbicha> well the Desktop Guide only has the version number in it because that's where it's stored, it doesn't require renaming pages
[16:57:47] <MrChrisDruif> UndiFineD; I think that it will be defined in the Styling Guide?
[16:57:53] <spynappels> it would also make updating easier, if a release is no longer supported, only a small section needs to be removed.
[16:58:58] <UndiFineD> jbicha, well I think we go with that for now then, only need to make versionable categories then
[16:59:05] <MrChrisDruif> spynappels; There are a lot of pages
[16:59:19] <UndiFineD> spynappels, +4000
[16:59:43] <MrChrisDruif> So "a small" section I wouldn't call it.
[16:59:51] <UndiFineD> I would like to wrap this topic and move on
[16:59:56] <MrChrisDruif> But UndiFineD, won't it be defined in the new styling guide?
[17:00:14] <UndiFineD> I hope so :)
[17:00:32] <MrChrisDruif> Alright, then I think it's indeed time for the next [TOPIC]

Summer of Documentation 2011

[17:00:51] <UndiFineD> [TOPIC] Summer of Documentation 2011
[17:01:06] <UndiFineD> yes I am skipping Ubuntu Manual
[17:01:37] <MrChrisDruif> UndiFineD; There is no meeting planned after this one, so it's alright if we run late
[17:01:47] <MrChrisDruif> We are already running late ;)
[17:02:06] <xardas008> MrChrisDruif: but i will fell asleep soon i think xD
[17:02:07] <UndiFineD> for the 4th year in a row we have our Summer of Documentation projects, most details are already given above
[17:02:19] <UndiFineD> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Docs/SoD2011
[17:03:15] <UndiFineD> there are some more pages to be expected to be put up there by people, but feel free to pick some and add your name to the list of the pages you want to rework
[17:03:55] <MrChrisDruif> Alright
[17:04:13] <UndiFineD> This can be all across the *buntu family including Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu and Lubuntu
[17:04:33] <MrChrisDruif> Maybe add that Ubuntu Manual accessibility to that page?
[17:04:47] <MrChrisDruif> Yay for Lubuntu :D
[17:05:07] <MrChrisDruif> \o/
[17:05:15] <UndiFineD> MrChrisDruif, AlanBell actually wrote something up yesterday they might be able to use
[17:05:24] <MrChrisDruif> Alright, great :)
[17:06:01] <UndiFineD> so Last point MrChrisDruif

Regular meetings

[17:06:15] <UndiFineD> [TOPIC] Regular meetings
[17:06:53] <MrChrisDruif> Alright, I think UndiFineD would agree with me (as he started with a comment similar) I would like to have regular intervals between the meetings
[17:07:15] <UndiFineD> I do
[17:07:33] <UndiFineD> what would be good ? 2 weeks a month ?
[17:07:48] <MrChrisDruif> I don't think bi-monthly meeting is a bit long, so either a weekly, bi-weekly or monthly meeting would be great :)
[17:08:05] <UndiFineD> anyone else ?
[17:08:14] <MrChrisDruif> xardas008 fell asleep ;)
[17:08:24] <xardas008> not yet xD
[17:08:49] <xardas008> depends on the topics i think
[17:09:12] <xardas008> if there are important ones weekly would be good, but bi-weekly is also enough i think
[17:09:25] <UndiFineD> well as I have shown above all the topics are linked, so they are most likely to stay
[17:09:33] <MrChrisDruif> I think I would be a +1 on bi-weekly
[17:09:38] <UndiFineD> we just get more into the details
[17:09:42] <MrChrisDruif> Weekly is a bit much :D
[17:10:51] <UndiFineD> it has a +1 from me too
[17:11:03] <MrChrisDruif> IMHO anyway
[17:11:18] <MrChrisDruif> Alright...so bi-weekly?
[17:11:24] <xardas008> +1
[17:11:34] <MrChrisDruif> Alright...same day?
[17:12:05] <phillw> provided someone pokes me before it starts :)
[17:12:09] <UndiFineD> seems agreeable next meeting then somewhere in 2 weeks, timing with a more flexible doodle
[17:12:39] <MrChrisDruif> Even more flexible? :P
[17:12:39] <UndiFineD> since some people could not make it tonight
[17:13:27] <MrChrisDruif> Only 3 of the 9 couldn't make it tonight
[17:13:28] <UndiFineD> well, I think that is it for tonight.
[17:13:40] <UndiFineD> any thing else ?
[17:13:51] <MrChrisDruif> One of which has stops all activity on freenode
[17:13:58] <MrChrisDruif> stopped*
[17:14:13] <UndiFineD> :/
[17:14:20] <MrChrisDruif> I'd like to set the next meeting if that's alright
[17:14:35] <UndiFineD> no doodle ?
[17:14:44] <MrChrisDruif> Preferably not O:-)
[17:15:18] <MrChrisDruif> Anyone?
[17:15:55] <UndiFineD> phillw, xardas008 ?
[17:16:00] <xardas008> hm?
[17:16:01] <UndiFineD> head_victim, ?
[17:16:15] <MrChrisDruif> Next meeting; doodle or set it now
[17:16:15] <phillw> I'm pretty flexible on times
[17:16:35] <UndiFineD> eaespinoza0, ?
[17:16:41] <xardas008> i'm free with everything
[17:16:43] <eaespinoza0> yea
[17:16:46] <head_victim> My times constantly change so I just come when I can or read logs
[17:16:46] <eaespinoza0> yeah?
[17:17:20] <UndiFineD> seems we have a flexible group
[17:17:25] <MrChrisDruif> It's not a two man show eaespinoza0, hence we want some input on when to plan the next meeting
[17:17:33] <MrChrisDruif> ;)
[17:18:02] <eaespinoza0> okay sorry job toke me away a few minutes and lost the attention
[17:18:14] <UndiFineD> we will pick a free slot in 2 weeks
[17:18:38] <eaespinoza0> I'm going for doodle to figure out a window for everyone
[17:19:14] <phillw> UndiFineD: as long as it posted up on the topic for the room a.s.a.p. that gives most of us chance to make arrangements or scream!
[17:19:26] <UndiFineD> eaespinoza0, well we can, but are limited to the fridge too
[17:19:36] <MrChrisDruif> phillw; the topic redirects to the wiki page
[17:19:55] <MrChrisDruif> Just keep an eye out for the update of the bulletin ;)
[17:19:59] <UndiFineD> #endmeeting

CategoryBeginnersTeam CategoryMeeting