Sunday, June 15th, 2014, 7:00pm (1900) PT


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   1 [02:15] <nhaines> #startmeeting
   2 [02:15] <darthrobot> Meeting started Mon Jun 16 02:15:23 2014 UTC.  The chair is nhaines. Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
   3 [02:15] <darthrobot> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
   4 [02:15] <nhaines> Okay, so the agenda ended up empty this time: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/14June15
   5 [02:15] <darthrobot> Title: [CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/14June15 - Ubuntu Wiki]
   6 [02:16] <nhaines> Therefore, we're just going to have some informal discussion.
   7 [02:16] <nhaines> #topic Event ideas for summer/fall
   8 [02:16] <nhaines> So as you know, summer and fall are traditionally more quiet periods for the LoCo.
   9 [02:17] <nhaines> I've been thinking about Ubuntu App Development School presentations, and I know rww has as well.
  10 [02:17] <DonkeyHotei> Roguehorse: with regard to your msg, he.net already hosts a lug last i knew
  11 [02:17] <nhaines> OCLUG wants to do an installfest again in September and I'm going to talk about a bigger venue with them next Saturday.
  12 [02:17] <nhaines> Does anyone else have any thoughts or ideas on events we could put on?
  13 [02:18] <ianorlin> ubuntu hour somewhere?
  14 [02:18] <nhaines> Ubuntu Hours are always welcome.  But they're meant to be more informal style events.
  15 [02:19] <Roguehorse> DonkeyHotei: They do EBLUG and SILICON Valley Web Builder but I'm sure They wouldn't mind an occasional Ubuntu event
  16 [02:19] <nhaines> We have a lot of members and it'd be nice to work together and do something special and fun.  :)
  17 [02:19] <jyo> Wouldn't be my first choice for venue though, given the location.
  18 [02:21] <DonkeyHotei> jyo: the location being suboptimal for EBLUG is why BerkeleyLUG came into being
  19 [02:22] <Roguehorse> DonkeyHotei: Ok, I have not been informed on that history so I am not aware
  20 [02:22] <nhaines> Roguehorse, DonkeyHotei: can you please continue this after the meeting?
  21 [02:22] <Roguehorse> nhaines: Fair
  22 [02:22] <DonkeyHotei> nhaines: this was in response to the summer/fall events msg
  23 [02:24] <nhaines> DonkeyHotei: you're discussing https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/2014-June/002440.html ?
  24 [02:24] <darthrobot> Title: [[Ubuntu-US-CA] Event ideas for summer/fall]
  25 [02:24] <Roguehorse> AFAIK - HE.net is a venue I have access to for events - Including UbuntuCA
  26 [02:25] <DonkeyHotei> nhaines: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/2014-June/002438.html
  27 [02:25] <darthrobot> Title: [[Ubuntu-US-CA] Event ideas for summer/fall]
  28 [02:25] <nhaines> Roguehorse: It's definitely good to have friendly venues.
  29 [02:25] <Roguehorse> nhaines: TY : )
  30 [02:25] <DonkeyHotei> oops
  31 [02:26] <Roguehorse> As for ideas of stuff to do? DK
  32 [02:26] <jyo> I wouldn't worry too much about event space; plenty of companies close to public transit that would be happy to have us. (I think the AdRoll release party worked out quite well.) Should focus on ideas first.
  33 [02:26] <DonkeyHotei> nhaines: i meant https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/2014-June/002440.html
  34 [02:26] <darthrobot> Title: [[Ubuntu-US-CA] Event ideas for summer/fall]
  35 [02:26] <nhaines> DonkeyHotei: that's what I linked to.
  36 [02:26] <nhaines> jyo: I tend to agree.
  37 [02:26] <nhaines> Still, I'm glad HE was mentioned because sometimes ideas follow from venue, too.
  38 [02:27] <DonkeyHotei> nhaines: the last link is Roguehorse suggesting he.net
  39 [02:27] <nhaines> DonkeyHotei: yes, that's what I linked.
  40 [02:27]  * ianorlin thinks this is looking for ideas would be good now
  41 [02:28] <DonkeyHotei> nhaines: sorry, misclicked, then
  42 [02:28] <nhaines> For any event, we would still need someone to stop up and volunteer to organize the event.  Are there any events that someone's wanted to run or be a part of that we haven't done?
  43 [02:28] <nhaines> Or maybe something went well and you want to do it again?  :)
  44 [02:28] <Roguehorse> just throwing it out there, but I just installed Mudlet. Maybe we could do some kind of party around that?
  45 [02:29] <nhaines> MUDs are all so different.  It'd be tricky to find something that was beginner-friendly and suited everyone's tastes.  :)
  46 [02:29] <DonkeyHotei> installfests can install packages, not just distros
  47 [02:30] <jyo> Well, typically, meatspace events are more successful at attracting interested newcomers and bringing out the old guard.
  48 [02:30] <nhaines> We can definitely do a team thing there, but LoCo events should be focused on public Ubuntu advocacy, since that's the purpose of a LoCo Team.
  49 [02:30] <DonkeyHotei> jyo: that depends on location, really
  50 [02:30] <Roguehorse> nhaines: True
  51 [02:31] <nhaines> Roguehorse: maybe we'll talk MUDs after the meeting.  :)
  52 [02:31] <eps> This isn't really a fully-formed idea, but I'd like to see some sort of "how to be an installfest volunteer" -- we're assuming that people come in with skills, and I don't think that's necessarily the case.
  53 [02:31] <Roguehorse> nhaines: k
  54 [02:31] <ianorlin> that could help people if they find freinds they want to convert as well
  55 [02:31] <akk> Even if they have installing/system skills, it can be confusing to know how to help people at an installfest.
  56 [02:32] <akk> How do you say you're one of the helpers? How do you find out who needs help?
  57 [02:32] <nhaines> eps: another important reason to put on events is to get new members at these events to gather experience.
  58 [02:32] <Roguehorse> So like "INstallfest Training Seminar?"
  59 [02:32] <eps> Roguehorse: yeah
  60 [02:32] <Roguehorse> could be cool
  61 [02:32] <DonkeyHotei> eps: i think there is the beginnings of that somewhere in the Linux Documentation Project
  62 [02:32] <nhaines> It was fully my intention to do some installfest training at the last one, but it didn't work out so well.  Not enough time.
  63 [02:32] <nhaines> DonkeyHotei: http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/text/Installfest-HOWTO is very helpful.
  64 [02:32] <darthrobot> Content type: [text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1] Size: [46413]
  65 [02:33] <Roguehorse> like a training class....we could build an outline and everyone follows along
  66 [02:33] <DonkeyHotei> eps: what nhaines said
  67 [02:33] <nhaines> Would anyone be interested in a Google Hangouts online session, maybe?
  68 [02:33]  * ianorlin would
  69 [02:33] <Roguehorse> we could do something like that
  70 [02:33] <jyo> Yeah, Installfest Training feels more like a Google Hangouts session going over some common points before an event than an event in itself.
  71 [02:34] <nhaines> I have an "Advocacy for Advocates" presentation that I need to push to people.ubuntu.com that's a good start, too.  Better than nothing.
  72 [02:34] <nhaines> jyo: I'd *prefer* to do it in person, but we're so small and geographically scattered that online would probably be better.
  73 [02:34] <Roguehorse> I think I like where this is going : )
  74 [02:35] <nhaines> And as long as we're doing that, maybe we can steal #ubuntu-classroom or #ubuntu-meeting and do something bigger than just California.
  75 [02:35] <Roguehorse> We should combine the event as a local "in person" combined as a MOOC
  76 [02:35] <DonkeyHotei> if anyone objects to google hangouts, a guy at noisebridge demonstrated https://sylaps.com/
  77 [02:35] <darthrobot> Title: [Sylaps - Devilishly easy collaboration!]
  78 [02:36] <jyo> That feels like something someone at Noisebridge would object to.
  79 [02:36] <nhaines> DonkeyHotei: Thanks for that.  Alternatives are good.
  80 [02:36] <nhaines> Okay, so I like that idea.  Let's discuss it and develop it further.
  81 [02:36] <DonkeyHotei> note: it was demonstrated by its creator
  82 [02:36] <Roguehorse> jyo: can't please everyone
  83 [02:36] <nhaines> eps: do you feel like bringing it to the mailing list or shall I?
  84 [02:37] <ianorlin> although timezones come into effect if it is online but that should be disscussed later
  85 [02:37] <eps> nhaines: all yours
  86 [02:37] <nhaines> We have a lot of veteran event organizers in this LoCo and the more training we get the better people will feel about volunteering, I hope.  :)
  87 [02:37] <nhaines> eps: okay, I'll do that then.
  88 [02:38] <nhaines> #action Raise discussion for an "Installfest volunteer training" online class on the Ubuntu California mailing list.
  89 [02:38] <darthrobot> ACTION: Raise discussion for an "Installfest volunteer training" online class on the Ubuntu California mailing list.
  90 [02:38] <nhaines> All right, any other event ideas?
  91 [02:39] <nhaines> All right, then.  What does everybody think about Ubuntu App Dev schools?
  92 [02:40] <DonkeyHotei> i agree that ubuntu phone is a worthwhile agenda for such
  93 [02:40]  * ianorlin is mildly interested personally but thinks other people probably are more interested than I am
  94 [02:41] <Roguehorse> I like the phone app idea but I think it's limited
  95 [02:42] <eps> What are the prerequisites?
  96 [02:42] <nhaines> Pretty much someone who has some idea of app development and a venue where people can plug in laptops.
  97 [02:42] <Roguehorse> I like the Dev School idea though - I'm always big on Dev Ed
  98 [02:43] <eps> I mean, if you expect people to be comfortable with Qt you need to teach Qt first.
  99 [02:44] <Roguehorse> Qt is very cool but I've only dabbled with it. I would definitely be down on getting deeper into it with others though : )
 100 [02:44] <nhaines> Oh, gotcha.  No prequisites.  The presentations basically run down what an Ubuntu app is and some of the tools, and then presumably you'd lead everyone in a demo building an app.
 101 [02:44] <nhaines> Ubuntu apps use QML.
 102 [02:44] <ianorlin> sort of like Richard Gaskins live code at Ubucon?
 103 [02:45] <DonkeyHotei> Qt would be cuter without all the c++
 104 [02:45] <nhaines> They also use Javascript, not C++.  Unless you already know C++.
 105 [02:45] <nhaines> ianorlin: I literally don't remember anything about Ubucon other than that I harassed Jono during his talk.  :)
 106 [02:46] <nhaines> Okay, we'll have to figure out more about the App Development School idea.  I'll probably talk to rww and see where he is about that.
 107 [02:47] <DonkeyHotei> or where he is, period
 108 [02:47] <nhaines> That brings us to the next topic.
 109 [02:47] <nhaines> #topic Leadership Document amendment: Decisions on non-agendized topics during IRC meetings
 110 [02:47] <nhaines> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/2014-June/002437.html
 111 [02:47] <darthrobot> Title: [[Ubuntu-US-CA] Leadership Document amendment: Decisions on non-agendized topics during IRC meetings]
 112 [02:48] <nhaines> It's been suggested that the LoCo should formally adopt a time limit before meetings.
 113 [02:48] <DonkeyHotei> there is really no reason to'
 114 [02:48] <nhaines> After that time limit, no item placed on the meeting agenda will be actionable.  That is, it can be discussed but no action may be voted on that will commit the LoCo for or against a topic.
 115 [02:49] <ianorlin> not sure if it gets put on last second could not be discussed
 116 [02:49] <nhaines> DonkeyHotei: the reason is that in the past, topics have been added minutes before the meeting, and then votes have been called.  This makes it very difficult for all stakeholders to be present during the discussion.
 117 [02:49] <DonkeyHotei> ah, ok
 118 [02:49] <nhaines> ianorlin: no one's suggesting that.
 119 [02:50] <ianorlin> argh worded that badly
 120 [02:50] <nhaines> Plus, sometimes items have been added for discussion and the adders have been accused of trying to push discussion through, too.
 121 [02:50] <nhaines> So this amendment would make it clear that last-minute agenda items wouldn't be actionable.
 122 [02:51] <Roguehorse> I like having agendas - and sticking to them - then open discussion after
 123 [02:51] <nhaines> An "action" would mean formal voting, adoption of position statements, disbursement of LoCo funds, and other significant decisions like that.
 124 [02:51] <DonkeyHotei> how about 8pm the preceding friday?
 125 [02:52] <nhaines> The proposed amendement puts the deadline at 7pm the preceeding Friday.
 126 [02:52] <nhaines> Or rather to say, 48 hours before the meeting.
 127 [02:52] <DonkeyHotei> rush hour ends at 7pm on weekdays
 128 [02:52] <DonkeyHotei> i propose adding an extra hour for that reason
 129 [02:52] <nhaines> and by 7pm Friday, many already have their weekends planned.
 130 [02:53] <ianorlin> is one hour really that big a deal in the time frame?
 131 [02:54] <nhaines> #idea Allow agenda topics to be added on Friday evenings.
 132 [02:54] <nhaines> Does anyone have any thoughts on that?
 133 [02:55] <Roguehorse> 36hr cut-off might be better
 134 [02:55] <jyo> It's a two week timeframe. 48 hours before (i.e. 7p) should be fine.
 135 [02:55] <eps> Change 48 hours to 72 hours
 136 [02:55] <nhaines> #idea 36-hour cutoff instead of 48-hour cutoff.
 137 [02:55] <nhaines> #idea 72-hour cutoff instead of 48-hour cutoff.
 138 [02:56] <DonkeyHotei> Roguehorse: many people will not notice something added on a weekend
 139 [02:56] <DonkeyHotei> eps: again, rush hour
 140 [02:56] <eps> DonkeyHotei: don't wait until the last minute
 141 [02:57] <ianorlin> you don't have to add it at the deadline
 142 [02:57] <Roguehorse> DonkeyHotei: Gives time through Friday night after rush-hour to put in last minute thoughts
 143 [02:58] <DonkeyHotei> Roguehorse: whether thurs or fri, 8pm can accomplish that
 144 [02:58] <jyo> Maybe we should predicate all our timing decisions on local traffic conditions.
 145 [02:59] <DonkeyHotei> jyo: it's a big state
 146 [02:59] <Roguehorse> jyo: Yeah, define "local"?
 147 [02:59] <nhaines> jyo: well, I don't think it's unreasonable to think about these things when we discuss events.
 148 [03:00] <nhaines> So it's definitely worth bringing up.
 149 [03:00] <nhaines> Is anyone opposed to a restriction such as the one proposed?
 150 [03:00] <ianorlin> no not opposed to the restriction
 151 [03:01] <Roguehorse> no oppositions
 152 [03:01] <eps> We have a restriction -- all of the proposals are for lengthening it.
 153 [03:01] <DonkeyHotei> i am not opposed in general, just have reservations about the exact cutoff
 154 [03:01] <nhaines> Do we have a restriction?
 155 [03:01] <eps> 24 hours
 156 [03:01] <jyo> Set one and then walk it forward as necessary.
 157 [03:02] <nhaines> eps: That's not in the leadership document.  Do you have a source?
 158 [03:02] <eps> It's been the established convention
 159 [03:02] <DonkeyHotei> the proposal is to codify
 160 [03:03] <nhaines> The leaders are looking to codify this restriction.
 161 [03:03] <ianorlin> which makes sense
 162 [03:03] <rww> oh, howdy
 163 [03:03] <nhaines> Okay.  Everyone seems in favor of having a restriction.  At least, no one's opposed to it.
 164 [03:03] <rww> apparently 7pm happened
 165 [03:03] <nhaines> Oh hey rww
 166 [03:03] <rww> sorry :[
 167 [03:04] <DonkeyHotei> it happened an hour ago
 168 [03:04] <nhaines> rww: it's okay, I remembered how to bot.
 169 [03:04] <eps> bot is a verb now?
 170 [03:04]  * ianorlin needs to get his dad dinner
 171 [03:04] <rww> elky distracted me with amazing food
 172 [03:05] <nhaines> eps: http://www.languagetrainers.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/calvinverbing.jpg
 173 [03:05] <DonkeyHotei> eps: it's not a verb how google is not a verb
 174 [03:05] <darthrobot> Content type: [image/jpeg] Size: [36417]
 175 [03:05] <nhaines> For the official meeting record.  :P
 176 [03:05] <nhaines> rww: I find this an acceptable excuse.
 177 [03:05] <rww> anyways, I just read scrollback for this topic. We're fine with a timing restriction, just not sure what the length should be?
 178 [03:06] <ianorlin>  yes
 179 [03:06] <nhaines> Okay, does anyone think the time limit should be extended back from the meeting from Friday, or pushed forward to Saturday?
 180 [03:06]  * eps thought "xerox" was the only thing you couldn't verb
 181 [03:06] <nhaines> rww: pretty much.
 182 [03:06] <Roguehorse> 'bout
 183 [03:07] <rww> I figure we set it to 48 hours and see how it goes. If you want something on the agenda, you have two weeks to do it. If you are able to show up for a meeting on Sunday but can't read an agenda all of Sunday or Saturday, or Friday evening, your schedule is odd.
 184 [03:07] <Roguehorse> so far we have: 24, 36, 48 and 72 hr proposals
 185 [03:07] <rww> And anyways, it's not getting decided on today. If the only point of contention is the time period, yay.
 186 [03:07] <elky> 48 is fairly typical
 187 [03:07] <DonkeyHotei> Roguehorse: add mine of 47
 188 [03:07] <nhaines> Roguehorse: also 23-hour proposals.
 189 [03:07] <ianorlin> 47 hours as well I think
 190 [03:07] <nhaines> Also I meant 47.
 191 [03:08] <Roguehorse> ah geez!
 192 [03:08] <eps> n is n-m with an m grace period ;-)
 193 [03:08] <eps> or something like that
 194 [03:08] <nhaines> No grace periods, please.  :)
 195 [03:08] <eps> n+m maybe
 196 [03:08] <nhaines> If there's a grace period, just make *that* the time limit.
 197 [03:08] <Roguehorse> 23, 24, 36, 47, 48 and 72 hr proposals
 198 [03:08] <DonkeyHotei> and i responded to the 72 with 71
 199 [03:09] <nhaines> Well I was going to call for a vote on this but now rww's here so he'll catch me.
 200 [03:09] <Roguehorse> and to think I'm missing the Gong Show for this!
 201 [03:09] <nhaines> But it's good to know that we're all in general agreement, anyway.
 202 [03:09] <rww> I specified the meeting two weeks from today for voting on the actual amendment.
 203 [03:09] <Roguehorse> : P
 204 [03:10] <ianorlin> ah yeah vote on it then
 205 [03:10]  * ianorlin goes to get his dad dinner
 206 [03:10] <nhaines> Might be good to take it back to the mailing list, then.  Any other comments on this before we wrap it up?
 207 [03:10] <rww> This is because voting on something that I proposed today that would ban voting on something that I proposed today is a bit too funny for me.
 208 [03:10] <nhaines> rww: it's the entire reason I wanted to call the vote.  :)
 209 [03:10] <rww> lol
 210 [03:10] <rww> I like you, you should run for u-us-ca council
 211 [03:10] <rww> anyway
 212 [03:10] <DonkeyHotei> rww: so two weeks minus 24 hours of more numbers are allowed?
 213 [03:11] <rww> DonkeyHotei: enoparse
 214 [03:11] <nhaines> But right, the discussion topic was intended to be an informal discussion and not actionable at this meeting.
 215 [03:11] <eps> CIVS, here we come.
 216 [03:12] <DonkeyHotei> rww: don't worry, parsing stuff i say isn't something everyone can do
 217 [03:12] <nhaines> rww can actionate it next time.  :P
 218 [03:12] <rww> actionize **
 219 [03:12] <nhaines> ALL SYSTEMS ACTIONATED
 220 [03:12] <nhaines> Okay, so I think that's about it for this topic, then.
 221 [03:12]  * rww nods
 222 [03:13] <nhaines> #topic Miscellaneous
 223 [03:13] <nhaines> Anything else before we wrap it up?
 224 [03:13] <rww> sensible proposals for alternate time frames (or other amendment improvements) welcome on mailing list
 225 [03:13] <nhaines> rww: I'm sorry, we've already moved on.
 226 [03:13] <rww> nhaines: network lag, clearly
 227 [03:13] <Roguehorse> LOL - schooled : P
 228 [03:13] <rww> nhaines: blame jyo
 229 [03:13] <nhaines> This whole channel is out of order!
 230 [03:13] <nhaines> haha, we'll call it lag.  :)
 231 [03:14] <rww> I think we should start deciding who's going to do post-meeting stuff at the end of the meeting.
 232 [03:14] <rww> I nominate nhaines.
 233 [03:14] <nhaines> #vote Should rww do all the post-meeting stuff at the end of meetings?
 234 [03:14] <darthrobot> Please vote on: Should rww do all the post-meeting stuff at the end of meetings?
 235 [03:14] <darthrobot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
 236 [03:14] <nhaines> +1
 237 [03:14] <darthrobot> +1 received from nhaines
 238 [03:14] <DonkeyHotei> speaking of lag, what's rww's take on summer/fall events as discussed?
 239 [03:14] <nhaines> Too bad we don't have that 48-hour rule thing right?  Also I don't think I know how to end the voting.
 240 [03:15] <eps> +0
 241 [03:15] <rww> -1
 242 [03:15] <darthrobot> +0 received from eps
 243 [03:15] <darthrobot> -1 received from rww
 244 [03:15] <rww> #endvote
 245 [03:15] <rww> which I can't do because not chair
 246 [03:15] <rww> because coup or something
 247 [03:15] <rww> -5
 248 [03:15] <rww> aww
 249 [03:15] <nhaines> OVERRULED!
 250 [03:15] <nhaines> #endvote
 251 [03:15] <darthrobot> Voting ended on: Should rww do all the post-meeting stuff at the end of meetings?
 252 [03:15] <darthrobot> Votes for:1 Votes against:1 Abstentions:1
 253 [03:15] <darthrobot> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
 254 [03:15] <nhaines> You win this time, rww!
 255 [03:15] <elky> the casting vote by who?
 256 [03:15]  * nhaines shakes fist.
 257 [03:16]  * eps cackles
 258 [03:16] <rww> elky: me, as the only member of the oligarchy currently present
 259 [03:16] <rww> With my casting vote, I vote for systemd as default Debian init system.
 260 [03:16] <rww> No wait.
 261 [03:16] <rww> anyway
 262 [03:16] <elky> you vote systemd for president, we get it
 263 [03:16] <rww> I vote elky does the post-meeting tasks
 264 [03:16] <elky> wat
 265 [03:17] <nhaines> Casting vote accepted.  Congrats, elky!
 266 [03:17] <rww> elky: there is a checklist and everything, and you love moin so much
 267 [03:17] <elky> i already made you dinner, what is this
 268 [03:17] <nhaines> elky: next time he demands medium-rare cook temps.
 269 [03:17] <rww> elky: I'm balancing out the patriarchy.
 270 [03:17] <rww> nhaines: #endmeeting plz :P
 271 [03:17] <eps> It's Fathers' Day.
 272 [03:18] <rww> DonkeyHotei: I'll take a look later; I was in the middle of something before elky noted we failed at alarm.
 273 [03:18] <Roguehorse> That got scary for a while : |
 274 [03:18] <nhaines> Okay, so I think we did pretty good for an informal meeting.  Couple of event suggestion ideas, a beginning concensus on the agenda thing.
 275 [03:18] <DonkeyHotei> elky didn't even answer as present for the meeting
 276 [03:18] <nhaines> See everyone here in two weeks, and also immediately following the meeting.  Thanks to everyone for their time.  :)
 277 [03:18] <nhaines> #endmeeting
 278 [03:18] <darthrobot> Meeting ended Mon Jun 16 03:18:42 2014 UTC.
 279 [03:18] <darthrobot> Minutes:        http://ihas.5cat.com/~darthrobot/ubuntu-us-ca/2014/ubuntu-us-ca.2014-06-16-02.15.moin.txt

CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/14June15 (last edited 2014-06-22 20:00:43 by rww)