For minutes of previous meetings, please see DesktopTeam/Meeting.
- On track for Feature definition freeze this Thursday
- Empathy to become default in Karmic this week, replacing pidgin
- Ubuntu1 file syncing MIR almost done, should see Ubuntu1 by default next week in Karmic
- No blocking issues identified
- Rick Spencer (rickspencer3) - chair
- Alexander Sack (asac)
Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje)
- Bryce Harrington (bryce)
- Chris Cheney (calc)
- Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)
Ken VanDine (kenvandine)
- Martin Pitt (pitti)
- Sebastien Bacher (seb128)
- Till Kamppeter (tkamppeter)
- Tony Espy
Luke Yelavich (TheMuso)
- Robert Ancell (robert_ancell)
- Outstanding actions from last meeting
- Feature Definition Freeze
- Partner Update
- Kubuntu Update
- Bug Status?
- Assigned Bugs
- Quickly group?
Actions from this meeting
Outstanding actions from last meeting
- All: schedule a time for performance review
- Result: All done
- rickspencer3: create burndown chart script for blueprints
- Also pitti created script for parsing work items from white board
- All: add work items to burndown chart as defined by burndown chart script
started and works(http://piware.de/tmp/desktopteam-burndown-karmic.png)
- All: unasign bugs that will not be addressed in Karmic, including release targeted ones
Feature Definition Freeze
- pitti's review queue is zero, which means no one is blocking on spec review
- ACTION: All - finishing adding work items to white boards by Thursay
- ACTION: All - finish spec drafting by Thursday and set them to "pending approval"
Burndown Chart begins Friday: http://piware.de/tmp/desktopteam-burndown-karmic.png
- DXE team is planning two week sprints
- ACTION: rickspencer3 to ask davidbarth if the DXE team needs help setting up burndown charts
- DXE team working a FUSA prototype related to GDM upgrade
- seb128 is trouble shooting a final issue in the new GDM, and will syncronize uploading of that with DXE team's FUSA work
kenvandine has created a table to capture acceptance criteria for U1 file synching: UbuntuOne/DesktopIntegration/Status
- 13 of 19 acceptance tests are currently passing
- kenvandine reports that the incoming bug rate for U1 file-syncing seems to be decreasing
- MIR for file syncing should be finished within day
- Main inclusion reviews needed for arora, kopete-facebook, qjson, enca
- ACTION: MIR team, please review Kubuntu MIRs
- KDE OOo packages merged by Roman Shtylman, and new Oxygen themes for OOo by Yuriy
Good progress reported on KDE port of USB Creator (http://imagebin.ca/view/5E5mIe.html) by rgreening
Kubuntu team tracks work items here: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo/Karmic. In order to participate in the desktop team burndown, these work items are also being tracked in bleuprints.
- ACTION: pitti to slurp work items from Kubuntu wiki and integrate into burndown
- Poppler fixed, and Karmic switched back to poppler, in response to issues encountered by users after switch to Ghostscript
- Poppler fix in Jaunty proposed. Only positive feedback, pitti suggests moving the Jaunty SRU along
https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html - some backlog, pitti suggests asking for help if needed.
ACTION: All - review https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html and ask pitti for assistance if needed
- pitti suggests that we switch Karmic to empathy this week
- Outcome of discussion from last week was wide spread agreement that bug assignment will represent a commitment to strive to fix a bug in a particular release.
- Unassigning bugs is underway.
Measure of Overall Bug Status?
- Is there a single or small set of indicators that could communicate our status wrt to incoming and resolving bugs?
- Goal is to have a way to assess the quality of the product at a global level, as apposed to package by package level.
- Lively discussion ensued. Discussion will continue next week, but postponed to focus on Feature Definition Freeze.
- ACTION: rickspencer3 to create a quickly mailing list, and to suggest a common quickly meeting time through that list.
http://launchpad.net/~quickly for an overview of quickly
seb128 points us to his new tool for tracking necessary GNOME merges: http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/versions.html, this is an automated script that will be put on a cron job soon.
- ccheney uploading a new OOo that will have rosetta enabled for export, then later OOo-l10n using rosetta data
Alexander Sack (asac)
desktop-karmic-browsers - approved. not started.
desktop-karmic-firefox-3.5 - approved. started.
desktop-karmic-bluetooth-stack - approved. started.
mozilla-karmic-firefox-wifi-scanning - drafted. awaits sign off
desktop-karmic-network-ui - drafted. rejected. drafting
desktop-karmic-network-status - pre-discussion done during UDS, need to spec this together with holtmann (connman) and dcbw (NM); project is a two cycle project i guess
desktop-karmic-modemmanagers - drafting.
desktop-karmic-con-man - informational, drafting.
- firefox security update
- spec drafting
- working on getting rdepends of old xulrunner 1.8 moved to 1.9
- classpath; had to fix gcc/gcj first; currently upstreaming patch (LP: #385682)
- bfilter transitioned from libmozjs-dev to xulrunner; see LP: #352968
- couchdb transitioned from libmozjs to xulrunner; see LP: #352968
- gnome-chemistry-utils transitioned from libxul-dev to xulrunner-dev - yay! see LP: #352968
- some firefox newtab discussion
- started to work through assigned bug list
- bluetooth coordination with crevette, superm and luke
Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje)
- Discussion with mpt about the UI design for the new language-selector features, more discussion needed.
- Added work items to my blueprints
- Discussed SCIM replacement with iBus and decided to do it for Alpha-3, so that users can test it on the Alpha-3 Live-CD.
- Started MIR drafting for iBus.
- Followed up on the XPI import bug in Rosetta. Bug is apparently fixed, need to wait to be cherry-picked.
- Confirmed schedule for Karmic translations opening with the Launchpad Translation team. Translation opening is scheduled for next week, provided that all tests run successfully.
- Bug triaging and fixing for 3 translation related bugs in Jaunty.
- Performance review call
- Drafting objectives
Bryce Harrington (bryce)
- Reviewed/tested new apport code
- Completed karmic-desktop-xorg blueprint
- Sponsored xkeyboard-config 1.6 merge
- Tested -nouveau, -nv, -nvidia on all of my nvidia cards
- Created patches for -nv for card support
- -intel bug report triaging
- Off Thurs and Fri for sister's graduation. 3-day week.
- Expense report for UDS
- Catchup with email
Chris Cheney (calc)
Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)
- alpha 2 testing
- reupload koffice-l10n
- Update sip, python-qt and get kdebindings compiling
- archive admin half day
- update seeds and kubuntu-meta
- Patch Qt for multiline cookies
- Fix translations in choqok
- Write main inclusion reports for choqok, arora, kopete-facebook
- Wrote up specs into work items packagekit
- Review liblastfm package
- on with the specs
- Away from next weekend for a week
Ken VanDine (kenvandine)
- Finished empathy related MIRS
- Updated messaging indicator patch for empathy 2.27.2 and trunk, submitted upstream
- Initial pass at the MIRs for ubuntuone-client
- ubuntuone acceptance test tracking
- Fix the loudmouth bug for jaunty
- U1 Acceptance testing report
- Finishing touches on the empathy/message indicator patch for upstream
Luke Yelavich (TheMuso)
- Further discussion and drafting of the gnome-speech replacement specification, now awaiting approval.
- Further main inclusion report work for liblouis.
- Uploaded new GNOME 2.27 accessibility components, gnome-orca, gok, mousetweaks.
- Imported speech-dispatcher into a git repo from cvs, only for the project authors/maintainers to do their own import, disregarding my own repo which they could have used as a base. (Wasted effort on their part :S)
- Audio bug triaging, bugs in question are against pulseaudio, alsa userspace, and the kernel for hardware enablement.
- Uploaded gnome-media 2.27.3. I think I'll track this one as well, since it is multimedia/audio related.
- Drafted audio experience/stability spec, waiting on Dan Chen to look over it and help with volume related stuff, since my understanding of it is not yet complete.
- Tested a bluetooth headset with pulseaudio and the gnome-volume-control-pulse applet (a git snapshot) on karmic, and things work very well. Still need to try suspend/resume.
- Updated my PPA pulseaudio package for jaunty with some stability patches from upstream. If debian doesn't include these any time soon, I may put them into the karmic pulseaudio package as well.
- Found out that ALSA's HDMI code does not yet support more than 2 channel audio, and thus pulseaudio doesn't either. Unless some serious work is done on HDMI this cycle, we will still have less than good HDMI support. We hopefully will have good optical/coax digital out support, thanks to some great pulseaudio changes.
- Synced with latest dmraid package revision.
Tony Espy (awe)
- caught up on email after three weeks on the road.
- bought a new laptop and spent most of last Tuesday installing/configuring, etc...
worked on desktop-karmic-network-ui with asac.
downloaded and started to look over the Vodaphone Mobile Connect source code as part of analysis vs. NetworkManager and Connman.
- Sponsored a few uploads, not as much as I should have.
Martin Pitt (pitti)
- maintenance of telepathy-gabble
Karmic spec drafting:
- desktop-karmic-automagic-python-build-system: drafted, waiting for review from Rick
- desktop-karmic-symptom-based-bug-reporting: drafted, approved
Karmic feature work:
- desktop-karmic-automagic-python-build-system: no progress this week
- desktop-karmic-symptom-based-bug-reporting: no progress this week
- Discussed future handling of music players
- Wrote script to translate hal-info music players to udev rules and info files, sent out call for comments
Other work done:
- CD testing for Alpha-2
- Added work items to my specs
- Bug fixing in apport, cups, gdm-guest-session, hal, jockey, libgphoto2, pkg-create-dbgsym, udev-extras, tzdata
- Apport retracer mentoring for Michael Casadevall, who maintains the retracers for ports now
- Cleaned up obsolete core dumps from Launchpad
- Cleaned up ultra-private apport crash reports
- Couchdb/erlang discussions and bug handling
- performance review call
- Set up desktop team burndown chart creation
- Desktop team spec reviews/approvals/comments
- Updated acpi-support-deprecation spec
Merges: mine are all done
- couchdb, dvipdfmx, gdm-guest-session, gnome-power-manager, graphviz, lsb, pidgin, pygtk, texlive-bin, transmission, findutils
- Reviewed, not uploaded: hdparm, mdetect
Robert Ancell (robert_ancell)
Sebastien Bacher (seb128)
- GNOME 2.27.3 updates: deskbar-applets gnome-settings-daemon evolution-data-server evolution evolution-exchange
- desktop bugs triage
- worked on some desktop bugs and fixed build issues in karmic
- sponsoring: glade-3 gconf-editor nautilus zenity xchat-gnome gdl gconf gnome-utils gnome-themes gcalctool totem gnome-screensaver
- worked on a script to build a table of ubuntu, debian and upstream
versions of desktop components, it's working now but still requirement some work
- booked for GUADEC
Tony Espy (awe)
- caught up on email after three weeks on the road.
- bought a new laptop and spent most of last Tuesday installing/configuring, etc...
worked on desktop-karmic-network-ui blueprint with asac.
downloaded and started to look over the Vodaphone Mobile Connect source code as part of analysis vs. NetworkManager and Connman.
Till Kamppeter (tkamppeter)
- CUPS package
Patched CUPS to take into account option settings and multiple copies settings embedded in incoming PostScript (jobs from Windows, LPD clients, ...) in the PDF printing workflow
- Fixed pdftopdf which was accidentally excluded in the 1.3.9-3 upload.
- Fixed text-only printer (LP: #385797)
- Switched pdftops filter back to Poppler, solving most printing problems reported for Jaunty and Karmic (LP: #382379)
- Applied upstream fix for infinite loop in pdftopdf (LP: #382880).
- Several fixes on the pstopdf filter.
- Fixes for automatic updates of the PPDs of already existing print queues.
Added pdftoopvp filter from OpenPrinting Japan. Not yet activated as we have to wait for a Poppler update in Debian.
- Move added *.convs and *.types files to /usr/share/cups/mime/ so that they are not considered config files by dpkg.
- Updated cups-pdf: Support for PDF workflow (LP: #385709), automatic PPD update, Apport hook
- Added ghostscript-cups dependency to all CUPS Raster driver packages (gutenprint, splix, hplip) and the lsb package (LP: #385606).
- Started bug cleanup for foomatic-db package.
[17:30] <rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-06-16
[17:30] <lool> New gdk-directfb-2.0.pc:
[17:30] <rickspencer3> asac: may I edit the wiki page?
[17:30] <lool> Requires: gdk-pixbuf-2.0 pango pangocairo gio-2.0
[17:30] <lool> Requires.private: fontconfig cairo-directfb
[17:30] <lool> So there'sa difference here
[17:31] <rickspencer3> ArneGoetje: asac bryce kenvandine pitti Riddell tkamppeter seb128
[17:31] <rickspencer3> ready?
[17:31] <pitti> o/
[17:31] <Riddell> hi
[17:32] <kenvandine> here
[17:32] <asac> hi
[17:32] <seb128> sorry for that
[17:32] <seb128> I'm there
[17:32] <bryce> heya
- [17:32] * asac will finish activity report in wiki after meeting then
[17:32] <seb128> I was testing the gtk upgrade
[17:32] <rickspencer3> asac: thanks
[17:32] <asac> (sorry)
[17:32] <ArneGoetje> here
[17:32] <rickspencer3> asac: no apology necessary
[17:32] <rickspencer3> may I edit it now?
[17:32] <ccheney> hi
- [17:33] * rickspencer3 answers own question
[17:33] <rickspencer3> ccheney: hi!
[17:33] <rickspencer3> I was looking for calc :P
[17:33] <tkamppeter> hi
[17:33] <ccheney> rickspencer3: ah yea i changed my nick so xchat alerts could be useful
[17:33] <rickspencer3> hi Till ( tkamppeter )
[17:33] <rickspencer3> ccheney: thanks!
[17:33] <rickspencer3> let's go
[17:34] <ccheney> eg every reference to OOo calc in xchat alerted me, heh
[17:34] <kenvandine> hehe
[17:34] <rickspencer3> please note that I changed the meeting template
[17:34] <rickspencer3> I'm going to strive to provide a status summary to the world based on this meeting
[17:35] <rickspencer3> in terms of actions from last meeting, the only one is regarding bug assignement, and I would like to save that until a discussion near the end of the meeting
[17:35] <rickspencer3> so please review the wiki for the status of action items from last week
[17:35] <rickspencer3> so, Feature Definition Freeze
[17:36] <rickspencer3> pitti: any comments?
[17:36] <pitti> well, my current review queue is zero, and you should all have mail with my whimsical comments
[17:36] <pitti> some of them are back to drafting and need some fine-tuning
[17:36] <kenvandine> pitti: humm... you should have my social from the start in your queue again
[17:37] <pitti> kenvandine: no, it's not
[17:37] <asac> pitti: wifi is in your queue again
[17:37] <kenvandine> oh... humm
[17:37] <pitti> asac: right
[17:37] <pitti> so, please try to get them at least into the first review round by Thursday
- [17:37] * kenvandine didn't see a mail
[17:37] <pitti> there are some specs which didn't go to review once yet
[17:38] <pitti> also, please add work items to your blueprints by Thursday, so that we can start making http://piware.de/tmp/desktopteam-burndown-karmic.png actually useful
[17:38] <pitti> sorry for its bad look, will tune by next week
[17:39] <rickspencer3> my expectation that the burndown chart generated on Friday morning will be useful for tracking
[17:39] <rickspencer3> so that gives you until eod Thursday to identify work items in your blue prints
[17:39] <pitti> so if you are ignoring blueprint mail and sent a spec to "pending approval", please check the status of your's on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/people/+me/+specs?role=drafter
- [17:39] * rickspencer3 whip cracking noises
[17:39] <pitti> from what I saw in the specs so far, Karmic will be a killer release!
[17:40] <rickspencer3> yeah!
[17:40] <rickspencer3> pitti: it sounds like you need:
[17:40] <pitti> so,
[17:40] <rickspencer3> (go ahead, sorry) :P
[17:40] <pitti> TODO: add work items by Thursday
[17:40] <pitti> TODO: finish spec drafting by THursday and set them to "pending approval"
[17:40] <pitti> [done]
[17:41] <rickspencer3> ok
[17:41] <rickspencer3> I would add that the specs should have gone through at least one good round of review by Thursday
[17:41] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[17:42] <pitti> (mind that the original deadline was today..)
[17:42] <rickspencer3> right
[17:42] <rickspencer3> kenvandine ?
[17:42] <rickspencer3> partner status?
[17:42] <kenvandine> ah
[17:42] <kenvandine> my turn
[17:42] <rickspencer3> (thanks pitti )
[17:43] <kenvandine> I'll start with online services
[17:43] <kenvandine> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/DesktopIntegration/Status
[17:43] <kenvandine> this is a wiki page listing features planned for ubuntuone in karmic
[17:43] <kenvandine> with acceptance criteria, still a WIP
[17:43] <rickspencer3> these are tests that you are running?
[17:44] <kenvandine> this should help us track how things are shaping up before feature freeze
[17:44] <kenvandine> yes
[17:44] <kenvandine> i expect OLS QA will run them as well
[17:44] <kenvandine> but i will track it for us
[17:45] <kenvandine> ubuntuone-client and it's deps are being prepared to go into main now as well
[17:45] <kenvandine> well universe then MIRs for main
[17:45] <kenvandine> hopefully that will go smoothly
[17:45] <pitti> nice
[17:45] <kenvandine> I want to start tracking the DX team work in a similar fashion
[17:45] <pitti> kenvandine: how many of them have automatic tests? (especially for the sync daemon)
[17:45] <kenvandine> they are doing 2 week iterations
[17:45] <kenvandine> pitti: they have unit tests
[17:46] <kenvandine> but no functional tests that are automatic
[17:46] <pitti> kenvandine: are there tests for 2 sync daemons talking to each other?
[17:46] <pitti> okay
[17:46] <kenvandine> that feature isn't done yet
[17:46] <rickspencer3> pitti: is that important, should it be added to the acceptance criteria?
[17:46] <pitti> it seems to me that this shouldn't be too hard to set up with some shell scripts
[17:46] <kenvandine> if it is planned by karmic, it should
[17:47] <kenvandine> pitti: sort of...
[17:47] <kenvandine> there are a few gotchas...
[17:47] <kenvandine> like the keyring... etc
[17:47] <pitti> rickspencer3: well, it'd certainly help to run the tests automatically on a daily basis and spot regressions that way
[17:47] <pitti> kenvandine: yeah, the sandboxing certainly needs some work
[17:47] <rickspencer3> pitti: that makes sense, but I was referring to the 2 sync daemon scenario
[17:47] <kenvandine> i was thinking VMs
[17:47] <pitti> kenvandine: not saying that it's easy, just that it would be great to have
[17:48] <kenvandine> pitti: agreed
[17:48] <rickspencer3> well ... the first step of automation is often to define the tests
[17:48] <kenvandine> i will check to see if they have committed to the peer syncing by karmic
[17:48] <pitti> kenvandine: I thought peer syncing was the first and major goal?
[17:48] <kenvandine> last i heard it was something they wanted, but no timeline
[17:48] <kenvandine> pitti: not sure about that... i will confirm
[17:49] <pitti> IOW, if we take away file sharing, there's not much left, is there?
[17:49] <rickspencer3> ACTION kenvandine to define priority and timing of peer syncing, add to acceptance tests if necessary
[17:49] <kenvandine> pitti: well file sharing is there... but not peer to peer
[17:49] <rickspencer3> aah
[17:49] <kenvandine> local network stuff
[17:49] <kenvandine> pitti: that is what you are talking about right?
[17:50] <pitti> kenvandine: right, thanks
[17:50] <kenvandine> i will confirm, but i don't think that was super high
[17:50] <kenvandine> they want more features and the API done
[17:50] <kenvandine> more services
[17:50] <kenvandine> afaik
[17:50] <pitti> so a test script would just use the real cloud
[17:50] <kenvandine> yes
[17:51] <pitti> which is still useful, the test suite could drive the web ui to check for success
[17:51] <kenvandine> ok, DX team now... we are hoping to get them to use the burn downs
[17:51] <kenvandine> but that is still in the works
[17:51] <pitti> kenvandine: how's the general bug situation with u1, getting better?
[17:51] <kenvandine> better
[17:52] <kenvandine> getting quieter
[17:52] <kenvandine> i plan to align the integration points for both the DX and OLS teams so they don't both hit us at the same time
[17:52] <kenvandine> define milestones based on that schedule
[17:53] <kenvandine> so hopefully we don't have both teams beating on my door on the same day to get stuff done
[17:53] <kenvandine> more to come on that soon
[17:53] <kenvandine> one thing for us to think about right now, is fusa/gdm
[17:53] <rickspencer3> kenvandine: what is blocking the DXE team from using burndown charts? Can we help?
[17:53] <kenvandine> they are working on the fusa changes for gdm now, and should have something in a ppa for us soon
[17:53] <rickspencer3> oh
[17:54] <kenvandine> rickspencer3: nothing as far as i know
[17:54] <kenvandine> just doing it
[17:54] <rickspencer3> do we need to get new GDM into karmic asap for them?
[17:54] <kenvandine> no
[17:54] <kenvandine> we need them to align, land the fusa changes at the same time
[17:54] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to ask davidbarth if the DXE team needs help setting up burndown charts
[17:54] <pitti> well, we need to get gdm-new working at all
[17:54] <pitti> and if it does, move it to karmic as well
[17:54] <pitti> s/if/once/
[17:54] <kenvandine> pitti: it almost works
[17:55] <rickspencer3> this sounds like an unmet dependency
[17:55] <kenvandine> but yes, it needs work still
[17:55] <pitti> independently of the DX work we need to get it in ASAP
[17:55] <rickspencer3> the new GDM is triggering the FUSA work, right?
[17:55] <kenvandine> yes
[17:55] <pitti> since a lot of other things (artwork, boot speed, etc.) depend on this
[17:55] <kenvandine> it works well enough for them to do what they are doing
[17:55] <kenvandine> pitti: agreed
[17:55] <kenvandine> seb128: have you looked at that lately?
[17:56] <seb128> kenvandine: no
[17:56] <kenvandine> ted should have fusa changes (proof of concept) code done the end of this week
[17:56] <kenvandine> which can be built into the ppa
[17:56] <seb128> good
[17:56] <kenvandine> and hopefully the end of the next 2 week iteration be ready for karmic
[17:56] <kenvandine> so we should plan to have gdm ready the same time
[17:57] <rickspencer3> seb128: will that align for you?
[17:57] <kenvandine> i installed it in a VM with karmic and it worked after a reboot, restarting the service didn't do it
[17:57] <kenvandine> but it fails like ever 3 boots :/
[17:57] <kenvandine> which is weird
[17:57] <seb128> rickspencer3: yes, the new gdm is mostly ready, I still have an upgrade issue to debug but it's almost good to upload
[17:57] <kenvandine> i think both ted and kwwii is running it on jaunty
[17:57] <seb128> it's in the ubuntu-desktop karmic ppa now
[17:58] <rickspencer3> seb128: ack ... and thanks
[17:58] <kenvandine> i think that is all i have right now
[17:58] <rickspencer3> thanks kenvandine
[17:58] <rickspencer3> Riddell: Kubuntu?
[17:58] <Riddell> Kubuntu Status
[17:58] <Riddell> All specs approved
[17:58] <Riddell> Work items from specs are tracked here https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo/Karmic
[17:59] <Riddell> KDE 4.3 Beta 2 is in and working well
[17:59] <Riddell> Main inclusion reviews needed for arora, kopete-facebook, qjson, enca
[17:59] <Riddell> Big win of the week is elite Kubuntu developer Roman Shtylman had his OpenOffice KDE 4 patches merged http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/ooo-build/2009-June/000036.html http://shtylman.com/stuff/oo/oo_new.png
[17:59] <Riddell> Some community handling needing done in one of our local team IRC rooms, am investigating it along with IRC council
[17:59] <Riddell> Kubuntu-DE will be joining KDE and Amarok for a stall at Linux Tag next week
[17:59] <Riddell> Elite Kubuntu developer rgreening is making good progress on the KDE port of USB Creator http://imagebin.ca/view/5E5mIe.html
[17:59] <Riddell> KDE apps Help->Report Bug now uses Apport and reports to Launchpad, hopefully our beastie triagers can forward upstream the ones which belong there
[17:59] <Riddell> end report
[18:00] <rickspencer3> Riddell: what's "community handling"?
[18:00] <pitti> Riddell: OOo KDE4> !!!
[18:01] <Riddell> rickspencer3: guy incharge of channel is removing admin rights any lying about it, I need to work out the right way to get him replaced
[18:01] <rickspencer3> also I have the urge to point burndown.py at your todo list
[18:01] <rickspencer3> too bad
[18:01] <rickspencer3> thanks for handling that
[18:01] <Riddell> ccheney: do you have any time to look at the open office oxygen stuff?
[18:02] <rickspencer3> a good example of your steady leadership of the community and product
[18:02] <Riddell> rickspencer3: I put the work items: in the spec whiteboards too, although it would be nicer not to have to update two places
[18:02] <ccheney> Riddell: not really until next week I used up my time already this week yesterday
[18:02] <rickspencer3> action: rickspencer3 to investigate slurping work item status from Kubuntu todo list
[18:02] <ccheney> Riddell: it should be fairly straightforward (i hope) may take an hour or so to do due to patching the OOo source, etc
[18:02] <Riddell> ccheney: next week is good. but let me know if it won't happen for ages and I can try and look at it (although it'll take me longer than it would you presumably)
[18:03] <rickspencer3> don't forget that ccheney is only with us 20% time
[18:03] <pitti> Riddell: if every table line is one WI, I'm happy to teach workitems.py about parsing this one
[18:03] <Riddell> pitti: yes it is
[18:03] <rickspencer3> pitti: that might be good, because it would also create another option for people to track work items
[18:03] <rickspencer3> like other teams might want to copy Kubuntu, and the tools would be right there
[18:03] <pitti> seems straightforward then
[18:04] <pitti> make it an action item for me then
[18:04] <rickspencer3> ACTION: pitti to slurp work item status from Kubuntu todo list
[18:04] <rickspencer3> thanks Riddell
[18:04] <Riddell> poke MIR team about those MIRs
[18:04] <rickspencer3> Riddell: may I suggest that you go ahead and look at that OOo stuff if you have the time, based on ccheney's limited bandwidth for us this release?
[18:05] <rickspencer3> ACTION: MIR team to consider themselves poked regarding Kubuntu MIRs
[18:05] <asac> Riddell: feel free to assign me a few
[18:05] <Riddell> will do
[18:05] <ccheney> Riddell: i can point out what you need to do to make it work
[18:06] <rickspencer3> Riddell: good job, Kubuntu seems off to another great start
[18:06] <Riddell> ccheney: that would be useful
[18:06] <rickspencer3> move on?
[18:06] <rickspencer3> What was the outcome of the discussion on assigned bugs?
[18:07] <seb128> we all seem to agree on how to use assignment
[18:07] <pitti> it was by and large violent agreement
[18:07] <rickspencer3> raging agreement works for me
[18:07] <rickspencer3> so does anyone need help *unassigning* bugs
[18:07] <rickspencer3> asac: >
[18:07] <rickspencer3> ?
[18:08] <pitti> (that seems to be a very individual problem to me FWIW)
[18:08] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:08] <rickspencer3> it seems like if someone has a lot to unassign, it could be rather tedious
[18:09] <rickspencer3> so perhaps some teammates could lighten the load
[18:09] <asac> rickspencer3: atm i going through assignedbugs a bit day-by-day. we will see if i need help when i am done with the first round
[18:09] <pitti> rickspencer3: I wouldn't want other people to mess with my bugs TBH
[18:09] <rickspencer3> pitti: ok
[18:09] <rickspencer3> thanks pitti and asac
[18:09] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[18:10] <rickspencer3> here's a discussion topic ...
[18:10] <rickspencer3> Is there a single or small set of indicators that could communicate our status wrt to incoming and resolving bugs?
[18:10] <pitti> we have those on a global ubuntu level from the QA team
[18:10] <rickspencer3> pitti: right
[18:10] <pitti> splitting it by team seems hard without actually triaging them all
[18:10] <rickspencer3> which are your referring to though?
[18:11] <rickspencer3> on launchpad?
[18:11] <pitti> rickspencer3: resolving bugs should be possible
[18:11] <bryce> one approach could be to have a procmail script or whatever watching the incoming bug mail flow
[18:11] <pitti> we could ask the QA team to do something like http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/jaunty-fixes-report.html for karmic, and split by team
[18:11] <bryce> both NEW bugs, and bugs closed as invalid/fixed/etc. are marked in a machine readable way
[18:12] <pitti> that would work if we define a fixed subset of pacakges to be "ours"
[18:12] <rickspencer3> bryce: hmm
[18:12] <pitti> bryce: QA team parses -changes@ for that list
[18:12] <rickspencer3> what I would like to see is a report on bugs on the product, not necessarily on the team members
[18:12] <bryce> pitti: yeah same idea basically
[18:12] <rickspencer3> pitti: right, is the lack of that list the lynch pin in this whole thing?
[18:12] <pitti> rickspencer3: list of desktop-ish packages?
[18:13] <pitti> rickspencer3: well, we could derive it from the seeds
[18:13] <rickspencer3> pitti: yes
[18:13] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:13] <pitti> "desktop" seed minus platform seed
[18:14] <rickspencer3> pitti: would you have time to work on this with me this week or next?
[18:14] <pitti> that wouldn't handle bugs which are assigned to the wrong package (of which there are a lot)
[18:14] <rickspencer3> (and whoever wants to help)?
[18:14] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[18:14] <rickspencer3> do you think that noise would invalidate the reading>
[18:14] <rickspencer3> ?
[18:14] <pitti> rickspencer3: if it's urgent, yes; I have some other urgent tasks to do, though
[18:14] <rickspencer3> not urgent, but important
[18:14] <pitti> rickspencer3: not invalidate, we should just allow a 20% error margin
[18:14] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:15] <pitti> but I don't know germinate very well myself
[18:15] <pitti> so we need to consult cjwatson anyway
[18:15] <rickspencer3> I think we should put this to bed for this week and focus on feature definition, but I'll bring it up again next week
[18:15] <rickspencer3> perhaps not in the meeting though
[18:15] <rickspencer3> anyone else, thoughts?
[18:15] <pitti> bryce: you have X bug stats as well, don't you?
[18:16] <asac> what kind of metric are we trying to get here? all incoming bugs vs. all fixed bugs? that sounds like a game we cannot win
[18:16] <pitti> asac: fixing them all shouldn't be the goal
[18:16] <bryce> pitti: yes that's right
[18:16] <pitti> bryce: you have a fixed list of packages? or you simply count the ones you're a package contact for, and thus receive mail anyway?
[18:16] <asac> pitti: i dont say that fixing all is the goal. just want to understand what the goal is
[18:17] <rickspencer3> asac: what I want is a measure that provides us a sense of the overall current quality, as well as a leading indicator regarding the quality when we ship
[18:17] <pitti> asac: hm, incoming bug rate isn't very good for that
[18:17] <pitti> erm, rickspencer3 ^
[18:17] <cj> how do I tell Jaunty that it's running on a laptop instead of a desktop? I want it to know to do the power-saving, lid-closing fu
[18:17] <asac> i dont think that bugs are a good measure of quality
[18:17] <rickspencer3> pitti: interesting that you say that, why not?
[18:17] <pitti> I daresay that jaunty's quality is far better than edgy's, and yet we get more bugs
[18:17] <seb128> well, measuring how much of those bugs are read is somewhat a good metric
[18:17] <asac> at least not _all_ bugs
[18:17] <pitti> because bugs primarily correlate with #users, not #problems
[18:18] <asac> we need to narrow those down to bugs we accepted to be something that should be in a metric like this
[18:18] <bryce> asac: for X I've found it useful to understand my rate of incoming vs. rate of closed and how they compare, because if the former is too much higher than the latter, or if there is a sharp change in rate, it serves as a signal something's wrong
[18:18] <rickspencer3> seb128: not sure what you mean
[18:18] <rickspencer3> bryce: good point, it's the incoming *rate* that you measure
[18:18] <rickspencer3> like by what percentage is the list growing
[18:19] <pitti> but for the rate to be useful, you need it on a per-package level?
[18:19] <asac> bryce: so you look for serious regressions through statistics ;)? thats a good idea, but it doesnt serve the goal to understand overall quality imo.
[18:19] <pitti> (and I believe we already have that)
[18:19] <bryce> pitti: right, we take care to ensure ubuntu-x-swat is the package contact for all packages we consider to belong to X, so I can auto-snarf my package list from https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+packagebugs
[18:20] <seb128> rickspencer3: I mean that we should not aim at triaging all the bugs in a proper way but we should at least look at most of the bugs to pick up real issues and do metric on those
[18:20] <asac> rickspencer3: problem is that growth probably is related to growth in userbase ... which we dont really know any details on
[18:20] <bryce> asac: yeah I would definitely agree #bugs is a measure of popularity, not quality
[18:21] <rickspencer3> but that seems easy to understand
[18:21] <pitti> for spotting regressions, I liked the "3-day subscription after upload" better, I think
[18:21] <rickspencer3> the goal is not to provide a perfect measure, but a sense of the overall quality and trajectory
[18:22] <bryce> quality is a bit harder to quantify... one idea I've had is now that I'm tagging symptoms on bugs, to compare proportions of bugs with serious symptoms to ones with less serious ones. If the proportions change, that is meaningful, separate from the overall quantity
[18:22] <rickspencer3> and I think measuring rate of growth attenuates the growing user base noise as well
[18:22] <seb128> well, we want a way to mark real issues we picked
[18:22] <pitti> rickspencer3: hm, I still think that the scaling by users and hardware far outweighs the change of "quality" in the sense of how many bugs we fix and introduce
[18:22] <seb128> and measure how good we are doing on those
[18:22] <rickspencer3> seb128: I agree
[18:23] <rickspencer3> perhaps measuring *confirmed* bugs would be better than *new*
[18:23] <seb128> I tend to measure desktop quality by number of milestoned bugs
[18:23] <pitti> measuring #regressions would be useful, though
[18:23] <rickspencer3> I know it's *hard* to quantify, but that doesn't mean we should shy away from it
[18:23] <bryce> rickspencer3: agreed
[18:23] <rickspencer3> incoming regressions would be a good measure
[18:23] <seb128> ie when we managed to scatch most of the milestoned desktop bugs that's a good sign
[18:23] <rickspencer3> hmm
[18:24] <rickspencer3> incoming milestoned bugs, interesting thought
[18:24] <rickspencer3> and easy to query for
[18:24] <asac> yes. please lets not try to do course grained overall stats. QA team should do those if they theink its important
[18:24] <asac> rather look at things that get pushed on our plate, like milestones, team assignments
[18:24] <asac> etc.
[18:24] <pitti> we could perhaps get some graphs on http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/regression/regression_tracker.html
[18:24] <rickspencer3> asac: hmmm
[18:24] <seb128> I tend to use milestones as a todo for the cycle, ie milestone all the desktop bugs I would like to get fixed for karmic
[18:24] <seb128> and watch this list
[18:24] <rickspencer3> not sure I agree
[18:25] <rickspencer3> again, I am interested in understanding the *product* not just the team workload
[18:25] <rickspencer3> asac:
[18:25] <asac> rickspencer3: what product in particular?
[18:25] <asac> desktop-cd?
[18:25] <seb128> well then we need a standard way to mark that a bug affect the product quality
[18:25] <rickspencer3> bryce: do you think incoming versus resolved regressions would provide a meaningful indicator?
[18:25] <asac> or ubuntu
[18:25] <seb128> and to track the list of those issues
[18:25] <bryce> asac: Ubuntu I gather
[18:25] <rickspencer3> asac: desktop-cd more or less
[18:25] <pitti> I'm just not sure whether it makes sense to do some "desktop" subset here
[18:26] <rickspencer3> pitti: not "desktop team" if that's what you mean
[18:26] <seb128> pitti: well that's the issues our team has to work on?
[18:26] <rickspencer3> but I think "server" and "unr" are probably seperable
[18:26] <asac> i still have the feeling its a Qa team topic
[18:26] <bryce> rickspencer3: incoming vs. resolved would be a meaningful indicator. (For X, most bugs would classify as 'regressions')
[18:26] <pitti> but foundations/kernel are affecting us as well
[18:26] <pitti> QA team topic> *nod*, at least we should include them in the discsussion
[18:27] <asac> of course we can provide suggestions and ideas and request certain things.
[18:27] <seb128> I think it's good to know where we stand
[18:27] <ccheney> OOo is on target to surpass evolution as the most upstream bugs by karmic release, it seems latelely almost all of the bugs filed are legitimate though maybe not of high enough importance to fully triage (?)
- [18:28] * ccheney isn't clear on what level of bug triage he should be doing (outside of the 20% issue at present)
[18:28] <bryce> rickspencer3: I'm a big believer that "you can't boil everything down to a single metric, without it risking being gamed". I suggest gathering several different metrics, see what's useful, and use them to calibrate or correlate. If quality is going up, then several different metrics should all show the same thing.
[18:28] <bryce> also, once you have a tool to gather/graph/etc. one metric, you can adapt and reuse the tool for another metric without too much trouble.
[18:28] <rickspencer3> I propose that close down this discussion now ...
[18:29] <pitti> ccheney: if you watch out for major regressions, that should be enough IMHO
[18:29] <bryce> oh, sorry
[18:29] <rickspencer3> but I feel that I can make some good progress in thinking about it given this feedback
- [18:29] * ccheney takes it offline
[18:29] <rickspencer3> bryce: that wasn't directed at you
[18:29] <rickspencer3> keep going, I'm sorry, I sensed it was drawing to a close (obviously wrong)
[18:30] <rickspencer3> now it's all socially awkward
[18:30] <rickspencer3> way to ruin the party rickspencer3
[18:30] <rickspencer3> :P
[18:30] <seb128> lol
[18:30] <bryce> rickspencer3: only last point, is I suggest using metrics only for our own education, not for measuring our individual performance, else we'll end up gaming it.
[18:30] <asac> i think we all need to think a bit and maybe do some after meeting discussions on this. its really a complex task to find metrics for quality
[18:31] <rickspencer3> bryce: obsolutely
[18:31] <rickspencer3> very well put
[18:31] <rickspencer3> asac: agreed
[18:31] <pitti> or even define what we understand as "quality"
[18:31] <asac> right
[18:31] <rickspencer3> bryce: even if we don't game it, it just wouldn't be meaningful
[18:32] <seb128> pitti: well, "quality" is pretty clear, it define how well user will react to the new version
[18:32] <rickspencer3> hey all
[18:32] <bryce> don't forget we can also look *outside* launchpad for measurable indicators of quality
[18:32] <rickspencer3> bryce: ?
[18:32] <seb128> the topic seems controversial for some reason
[18:33] <seb128> but it seems something clearly defined to me
[18:33] <pitti> seb128: hm, "how well user reacts" is not really quantifyable either
[18:33] <rickspencer3> I'd like to give tkamppeter a moment to give us an update on printing
[18:33] <tkamppeter> For the printing all looks nice. After getting a lot of complaints caused by the bad PostScript which the Ghostscript-based pdftops filter has produced, I fixed the upstream bugs in Poppler and switched back to Poppler. This fixed everything.
[18:34] <rickspencer3> tkamppeter: this is in Jaunty?
[18:34] <tkamppeter> I have also considered this as a Jaunty SRU and discussed it by e-mail. I will prepare the SRU in the next days.
[18:35] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:35] <rickspencer3> last topic, I'll just make it an announcement so that you can all go enjoy your dinners and all ...
[18:35] <tkamppeter> I get only positive answers and if someone still complained his problem was something else.
[18:35] <rickspencer3> I've been pestering people about quickly in an ad hoc manner ...
[18:36] <pitti> *nod*, I'm confident enough now to have this SRUed
[18:36] <pitti> rickspencer3: (JFYI, I also have two topics, one of which was in my mail)
[18:36] <rickspencer3> pitti: ok
[18:36] <tkamppeter> pitti, do you mean me?
[18:36] <rickspencer3> tkamppeter: thanks for the update
[18:37] <rickspencer3> moving on to a quick announce, then to pitti for two items
[18:37] <pitti> tkamppeter: right, I meant we should do this as a jaunty SRU and let it sit in -proposed for two weeks or so
[18:37] <rickspencer3> I'll set up a regularly time for discussing quickly, if any one is interested, let me know (I'll move this to the mail list)
[18:37] <rickspencer3> phew
[18:37] <rickspencer3> pitti
[18:37] <rickspencer3> ?
[18:37] <pitti> so, thing 1:
[18:37] <pitti> https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
[18:38] <didrocks> (rickspencer3: before / after the spec approval? sorry pitti)
[18:38] <pitti> please have a look at which packages still need to be merged
[18:38] <pitti> and tell me if you need help with your merges
[18:38] <pitti> tkamppeter: ^ you have a fair bunch as well
- [18:38] * asac notes ifupdown
[18:38] <pitti> thing 2:
[18:39] <pitti> last week I reviewed the telepathy/empathy MIR bugs
[18:39] <pitti> they are all okay now, except for bug 384677
[18:39] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 384677 in telepathy-gabble "telepathy-gabble main inclusion" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/384677
[18:39] <pitti> it says "will maintain itself", but if we want to make empathy real in karmic, this needs some dedicated maintainership
[18:40] <pitti> audio/video are horribly broken, and it's very crashy
[18:40] <pitti> so I wanted to ask whether someone can adopt this -- kenvandine/seb128/robert_ancell?
[18:40] <seb128> pitti: we have cassidy and Zdra from upstream around
[18:41] <seb128> and there is a bug day planned for empathy already
[18:41] <seb128> pedro is looking at those bugs
[18:41] <kenvandine> yup
[18:41] <seb128> and debian get the new versions
[18:41] <pitti> ah, so we should feel encouraged to file bugs like mad then?
[18:41] <kenvandine> pitti: yes
[18:41] <seb128> what else do you want to get added?
[18:41] <kenvandine> please
[18:41] <pitti> okay, good
[18:41] <pitti> thanks, fine for me
[18:41] <seb128> ok good
[18:41] <kenvandine> great
[18:41] <pitti> then I propose we'll switch over karmic this week
[18:41] <rickspencer3> !
[18:41] <kenvandine> :-D
[18:41] <kenvandine> woot
[18:41] <seb128> I will look at those bugs every now and then as I'm doing for pidgin
[18:42] <asac> great
[18:42] <pitti> [done]
[18:42] <seb128> but I don't have the bandwith to take over extra components
[18:42] <asac> so pidgin off CD?
[18:42] <kenvandine> i am trying to get my MI patch merged upstream
[18:42] <kenvandine> plan to finish their requirements by tomorrow
[18:42] <pitti> asac: ish; libpurple sucks in pidgin-data, which needs to be fixed
[18:42] <kenvandine> asac: yup
[18:42] <ccheney> is there a way to pull history (logs) from pidgin into empathy?
[18:42] <pitti> wastes 1 MB CD space
[18:42] <asac> pitti: yeah saw that bug.
[18:42] <jcastro> ccheney: I am looking into that (would be nice)
[18:42] <ccheney> jcastro: ok
[18:42] <kenvandine> ccheney: not yet... but i think jorge was going to file a bug
[18:43] <awe> pitti:
[18:43] <asac> (rather discussion fwiw)
[18:43] <pitti> rickspencer3: back to you
[18:43] <rickspencer3> pitti: thanks
[18:43] <rickspencer3> sorry, I didn't see your mail, or I would have put your items earlier in the agenda
[18:43] <pitti> rickspencer3: please note down merges as action item
[18:43] <rickspencer3> my had
[18:44] <rickspencer3> any other business?
[18:44] <seb128> I just want to point http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/versions.html
[18:44] <pitti> note that merges need to be finished by June 25th
[18:44] <seb128> it's working now but not regularly updated yet
[18:44] <seb128> code on ~ubuntu-desktop/+junk/versions
[18:44] <pitti> cool
[18:44] <rickspencer3> ACTION: tkamppeter to review merges
[18:44] <pitti> seb128: now we need a "sync" and a "do merge" button
[18:44] <rickspencer3> ACTION: asac to review ifupdown merge
[18:45] <pitti> rickspencer3: s/tkamppeter/everyone/
[18:45] <seb128> pitti: right, coming next
[18:45] <seb128> patches are welcome
[18:45] <ccheney> i'm uploading a new OOo later today that will have rosetta enabled for export, then later OOo-l10n using rosetta data once i verify it works on that side as well