2009-09-08

For minutes of previous meetings, please see DesktopTeam/Meeting.

Meeting Minutes

Present

Main Meeting

  • Rick Spencer (rickspencer3) - chair
  • Bryce Harrington (bryce)
  • Chris Cheney (calc)
  • Martin Pitt (pitti)
  • Sebastien Bacher (seb128)
  • Till Kamppeter (tkamppeter)
  • Alberto Milone (tseliot)

Eastern Edition

  • Luke Yelavich (TheMuso)

  • Robert Ancell (robert_ancell)

Apologies

  • Tony Espy (awe)
  • Alexander Sack (asac)
  • Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje)

  • Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)
  • Ken VanDine (kenvandine)

Discussion

  • Updating apps for message menu
  • pidgin versus empathy in Karmic

Status Updates

  • Release Bugs/Release Status
  • Review activity reports

Any other business

Actions from this meeting

  • ACTION: rickspencer3 to disuss piddin/empathy with seb128 and pitti and make call for Karmic
  • ACTION: all to review release targeted bugs and fix the milestoned ones
  • ACTION: pitti to try to repro x freeze and log bug

Partner Update

  • no update as kenvandine is away today

Discussion

Modifying apps to work with Messaging Menu

pidgin versus empathy

The current Plan of Record is to install Empathy with Karmic, but to leave Pidgin in place if the user is upgrading. Pidgin won't be installed on new installs.

We've received feedback about this plan. Discussed at length. Pros and cons summarized below. rickspencer3 will meet with seb128 and pitti to make the final determination.

  • ACTION: rickspencer3 to disuss piddin/empathy with seb128 and pitti and make call for Karmic

Pro

Con

Empathy

Tracks Gnome Schedule
Comes with Telepathy
Change before LTS

Still Crashing
No OTR support
Still pending migration issues (logs not migrated, some bugs, some features not available in empathy)
Orca is not yet modified to work easily with Empathy

Pidgin

Well tested
Decent IRC client

Revert would happen after feature freeze

Release Bugs

Id

Title

Assigned To

Status

Importance

Package

Release

Milestone

Team

Date Confirmed

Tags

403581

restart required notification and button not shown in ffox 3.5

asac

Triaged

High

ubufox (Ubuntu Karmic)

karmic

ubuntu-9.10-beta

2009-07-23 15:38:59.556529+00:00

422930

after upgrade, CUPS refuses to use existing PSC-750 'usb' config and creates a new PSC-750-2 'hp' config

pitti

Incomplete

High

cups (Ubuntu Karmic)

karmic

None

amd64 apport-bug regression-potential

402175

gtk_tree_view_column_get_cell_renderers implicitly converted to pointer

seb128

Triaged

High

gnumeric (Ubuntu Karmic)

karmic

karmic-alpha-6

2009-07-22 04:48:59.782188+00:00

388898

[MIR] empathy dependencies

ken-vandine

Incomplete

High

gupnp-igd (Ubuntu Karmic)

karmic

None

388898

[MIR] empathy dependencies

ken-vandine

Incomplete

High

telepathy-butterfly (Ubuntu Karmic)

karmic

None

417009

all openoffice apps die in 'com::sun::star::ucb::InteractiveAugmentedIOException' on armel in karmic

ccheney

Confirmed

High

openoffice.org (Ubuntu Karmic)

karmic

karmic-alpha-6

2009-08-28 14:57:20.855069+00:00

apport-bug armel

422829

mozilla-nss.pc is broken

asac

Fix Committed

High

xulrunner-1.9.1 (Ubuntu Karmic)

karmic

ubuntu-9.10-beta

2009-09-01 20:35:44.111120+00:00

425793

No AppArmor restrictions in Karmic

pitti

Triaged

High

gdm-guest-session (Ubuntu Karmic)

karmic

ubuntu-9.10-beta

2009-09-07 16:17:49.848292+00:00

regression-potential

400485

Empathy sounds not in default ubuntu theme

seb128

Confirmed

Low

ubuntu-sounds (Ubuntu Karmic)

karmic

2009-07-17 15:39:17.308185+00:00

135548

Action on critical battery isn't triggered

pitti

Triaged

Medium

gnome-power-manager (Ubuntu Karmic)

karmic

2009-07-23 17:50:59.744334+00:00

data-loss qa-hardy-desktop qa-jaunty-desktop

412601

[MIR] indicator-session

ken-vandine

Incomplete

Undecided

indicator-session (Ubuntu Karmic)

karmic

ubuntu-9.10

None

  • ACTION: all to review release targeted bugs and fix the milestoned ones
  • pitti also reports that he is experiencing a gpu lock up hours after a suspend.
  • To date, there have been no actionable bug reports of this issue with complete debug info.
  • ACTION: pitti to try to repro x freeze and log bug

Work Items

http://piware.de/workitems/desktop/karmic/burndown.png

Activity reports

Alexander Sack (asac)

Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje)

Bryce Harrington (bryce)

  • Upstream several recent regressions on -intel
  • Follow up on a bunch of recently upstreamed bug reports
  • Receive test version of -fglrx. Install and test it on several
    • different hardware combos. Identify bugs fixed in this release.
  • Receive final version of -fglrx. Upload to Karmic.
  • Report bugs in launchpadlib regarding file attachments
  • Catch Alberto up to speed to prepare for paternity leave
  • Update email system to route to a WORK folder.
  • Troubleshoot boot issue on desktop. Replace power supply.
    • Motherboard seems funky too; probably need to replace system entirely.
  • Organize wiring for KVM, switch, and 4 computers
  • Holiday Monday Sept 7th

Chris Cheney (calc)

  • OEM work
  • Uploaded openoffice.org 1:3.1.1-1ubuntu1 for karmic and jaunty ppa.
  • Uploaded openoffice.org-l10n 1:3.1.1-1ubuntu1 for karmic and jaunty ppa.
  • Investigating bug 417009
  • OOo bug triage

Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)

Ken VanDine (kenvandine)

Luke Yelavich (TheMuso)

Accessibility

  • Fixed speech-dispatcher's audio fallback logic, as well as how it identifies whether pulseaudio is available.
  • Uploaded gnome-orca, mousetweaks, and gok version 2.27.92 to karmic.
  • Uploaded at-spi version 1.27.92 to karmic.
  • Patched orca to use speech-dispatcher by default.
  • Some live CD accessibility testing. Once my speech-dispatcher orca patch is on the live CD, more thorough testing can begin.

Audio

  • Audio bug triaging, bugs in question are against pulseaudio, alsa userspace, and the kernel for hardware enablement.
  • Uploaded a new snapshot of pulseaudio to karmic, version 0.9.16~test7 plus some extra git commits. This will likely fix a lot of crashers that users are seeing.
  • Started fixing paprefs to either not offer install buttons for installing packages via packagekit, or using apt/synaptic. The synaptic approach would take some work, so for now, I hav disabled the install buttons from showing in any case. This package is universe, so if a MOTU wants to fix this properly, they are welcome.
  • Uploaded more alsa-lib related fixes, and some patch reversions, thanks to Daniel Chen.

Misc

  • A little sponsoring, some GNOME updates, and some audio bug fixes, thanks to all contributors who did the work.

Martin Pitt (pitti)

Karmic feature work:

  • desktop-karmic-automagic-python-build-system:
    • beta available
    • just the upstream discussion is missing (which isn't bound by release cycle)
  • desktop-karmic-symptom-based-bug-reporting: implemented
  • security-karmic-apport-abort:
    • implemented my part
    • "beta available" now
  • hal deprecation:

    • this is as far as we can get in karmic, we won't change further things after FF
    • I'm happy about how far we got
  • gnome-panel speedup: no progress this week, target of opportunity

Other work done:

  • Implemented guest session in current gdm; this was quite a large task, the new gdm code is pretty hard to grasp
  • Lots of MIR reviews again
  • Spent the Saturday to fix the crash retracers from "brittle" to "pretty solid" again
  • Went through Apport's bug list, cleaned it up, and fixed a ton of bugs
  • Prepared and held developer week talk about translations, with Danilo and David
  • free time project, but FYI: Added a script "lp-project-upload" to ubuntu-dev-tools which uploads a project release tarball to LP; this avoids the click-o-rama which is necessary in the web UI

Sponsoring:

  • bluez, gnome-settings-daemon
  • I sucked at sponsoring this week, sorry

Robert Ancell (robert_ancell)

  • Package update/merges: gnome-terminal, gtk, gcalctool, brasero, gnome-power-manager
  • libgnomecanvas glade fixes
  • Patch to make gdmserver serve user information
  • Patch to make gdmserver cache ck-history data to improve startup time
  • gnome-pilot GtkBuilder patch

  • gcalctool bug fixes/triaging
  • gnome-games bug fixes/triaging
  • Updated LP details for GNOME packages

Sebastien Bacher (seb128)

  • GNOME updates: pygtk gtk+ glibmm2.4 nautilus-sendto gst-plugins-good0.10 libunique gvfs nautilus vinagre vino gtkhtml evolution-data-server evolution evolution-exchange glib pidgin gedit cheese file-roller gjs gnome-shell
  • updated notify-osd and indicator-applet to their new versions
  • sponsored f-spot update from debian git and fixed a build issue on the way
  • backported a nautilus git change to fix the preference dialog crashing
  • updated gnome-panel to reactivate fusa detection
  • fixed gnome-menus games categories not being translatable
  • rebuilt nautilus-sendto with a fixed empathy version
  • desktop bugs triage
  • worked on a the workspace switcher applet spin buttons being broken, got a fix in git
  • sponsoring: libdbus-menu xsplash indicator-session empathy gobject-introspection gir-repository ubuntuone-client pidgin gnome-control-center

Tony Espy (awe)

Misc:

  • OEM Work

Network Manager:

  • re-release network-manager-pptp to fix version number & update to latest snapshot; pushed to pptp-ubuntu.head

  • discussed menu changes w/asac; it seems there's an adhoc icon that can show up next to the signal progress bar, in addition to the lock/secure icon. Decided to leave adhoc icon as is.
  • checked out applet code wrt to replacing radio button w/connected icon
  • created first version of the applet signal strength patch; needs some minor re-factoring
  • pushed several new versions of applet head branch to fix daily build failures; adjust patches + updated build and runtime depends.

Till Kamppeter (tkamppeter)

  • foomatic-db: Removed redundant PPDs for HP's PostScript printers. These PPDs are already included in HPLIP and only the versions in HPLIP are maintained upstream.

  • HPLIP: Applied upstream patch to make HPLIP supporting Policy Kit 1.0 (LP: #419834).
  • Answered and triaged printing-related bug reports.

Alberto Milone (tseliot)

IRC Logs

[17:30] * rickspencer3 taps gavel
[17:30] <rickspencer3> hi all
[17:30] <rickspencer3> is bryce here, or is he "busy" ;)
[17:30] <bryce> I'm here
[17:30] <ccheney> hi
[17:31] <rickspencer3> all - please welcome tseliot, he'll be standing in for bryce during September
[17:31] <bryce> (and busy but not "busy" quite yet)
[17:31] * tseliot waves
[17:31] <asac> hi
[17:31] * pitti puts a "Honorary Desktop Team Member" badge to tseliot's chest
[17:31] <seb128> hey tseliot
[17:31] <pitti> We got you back, after all! muhaha!
[17:31] <alek66> how can i add vnc to the startup programs in ubuntu (text mode)
[17:31] <tseliot> hehe
[17:31] <pitti> alek66: meeting; #ubuntu please
[17:31] <rickspencer3> alek66, we are having our team meeting now
[17:32] <alek66> sorry
[17:32] <rickspencer3> you are welcome to hang out, though
[17:32] <alek66> ok
[17:32] <rickspencer3> no problems, happens all the time
[17:32] <rickspencer3> so, shall we go to the agenda?
[17:33] <rickspencer3> No partner update from Ken, as unfortunately he is taking care of one of his youngsters today
[17:33] <rickspencer3> please focus good thoughts Ken's way
[17:33] <rickspencer3> Riddell?
[17:34] <rickspencer3> hmm
[17:34] <rickspencer3> not sure Riddell is really here, so moving on
[17:34] <rickspencer3> we have two discussion topics
[17:34] <seb128> shape to be a quick meeting? ;-)
[17:34] <rickspencer3> first one is easy:
[17:34] <rickspencer3> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/indicator-messages/+milestone/ubuntu-9.10-beta-freeze<<BR>> [17:34] <rickspencer3> seb128, (not when we get to the pidgin topic Wink ;) )
[17:35] <seb128> ;-)
[17:35] <rickspencer3> this link is a list that includes changes to apps that will be necessary when the updated messaging menu lands
[17:35] <rickspencer3> there is a lot of work there, though shouldn't be too complex
[17:36] <rickspencer3> I would like each of these to have an assignee by the end of this week, though not necessarily on the desktop team
[17:36] <seb128> I'm not sure about the one assigned to me, you want to remove pidgin launchers from people who have configured one?
[17:36] <seb128> should we also remove the evolution launcher from the default installation?
[17:36] <rickspencer3> seb128, right, because the launcher will live in the messaging menu
[17:36] <rickspencer3> same with evolution launcher
[17:36] <rickspencer3> so we don't need two launchers and a menu entry
[17:36] <rickspencer3> and we can start cleaning up the gnome-panel
[17:36] <seb128> I don't like much deleting things users configured
[17:36] <rickspencer3> (just help will be left, I suppose)
[17:37] <rickspencer3> seb128, are they not there by default?
[17:37] <seb128> especially that everybody until now told me that having launcher is the message indicator is non obvious to all the users they know
[17:37] <rickspencer3> is it only evo that we put there by default?
[17:37] <seb128> right
[17:37] <seb128> only evo
[17:37] <pitti> rickspencer3: hm, not sure how much our team can help here -- it will take some time to learn the APIs, and start the porting
[17:38] <seb128> rickspencer3, we can discuss that later not really a meeting topic
[17:38] <rickspencer3> ok ... so for a default install, no more evo on the panel
[17:38] <rickspencer3> for an upgrade, I'm not so sure
[17:38] <seb128> ok
[17:38] <seb128> same here ;-)
[17:38] <seb128> I know some people will hate us for deleting their launchers
[17:38] <rickspencer3> pitti, right ... but I thought some people might have interest in the particular apps, and we should strive to help the dx team
[17:39] <rickspencer3> so if someone sees one they think they can do, please snag it
[17:39] <seb128> especially if they don't figure those are in the message indicator
[17:39] <seb128> anyway we can discuss that off meeting
[17:39] <rickspencer3> :)
[17:39] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[17:39] * rickspencer3 fills with dread
[17:40] <tseliot> heh
[17:40] <rickspencer3> I'd like to raise the topic of pidgin versus empathy for Karmic
[17:40] * seb128 looks for a shield
[17:40] <rickspencer3> I would like to engender a general discussion now
[17:40] <ccheney> lol :-)
[17:40] * ccheney didn't much like empathy due to its lack of timestamping like pidgin does, but ymmv
[17:40] <rickspencer3> but after the discussion I will huddle with seb128 and pitti ...
[17:40] * tseliot wears a fire-proof suit
[17:40] <rickspencer3> and then I will make a call
[17:40] <pitti> it's a bit weird to see this happen now, since 4 months ago all people on devel@ and at UDS were so much in favor of empathy..
[17:41] <rickspencer3> (and so it begins ...)
[17:41] * ccheney likes empathy better... in theory ;-)
[17:41] <seb128> pitti, I never had this feeling
[17:41] <rickspencer3> pitti, do you feel that empathy has the quality we need?
[17:41] <bryce> heh, I've never used either one of these. I feel ooollllldddd
[17:41] <pitti> FWIW, for my own personal use it's no worse or better than pidgin
[17:41] <pitti> but I'm just using jabber and icq
[17:41] <seb128> I had the feeling that distro team was in favor but vast majority of user reaction was "empathy is nowhere near as good as pidgin"
[17:42] <djsiegel> rugby471: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/KarmicFusa#(Fast)%20User%20Switching<<BR>> [17:42] <djsiegel> rugby471: can you see that that is fixed please?
[17:42] <seb128> djsiegel, we are in the middle of a meeting
[17:42] <djsiegel> oops
[17:42] <djsiegel> oh!
[17:42] <djsiegel> sorry
[17:42] <seb128> no problem ;-)
[17:42] <tseliot> maybe it's because (currently) pidgin supports more protocols (even facebook chat)
[17:42] <seb128> so in my opinion empathy is a great basic im
[17:42] <pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008720.html raises a good point, though
[17:43] <seb128> but lacks quite some testing and polish
[17:43] <seb128> and lot of small and extra options pidgin has
[17:43] <ccheney> seb128: agreed
[17:43] <bryce> seb128, let's delete both and blame on cd size
[17:43] <pitti> in that pidgin is heavily used in windows as well
[17:43] <seb128> otr, pidgin, timestamp, text formatting, etc
[17:43] * ccheney thinks maybe switching to empathy could help get it to pidgin parity sooner, but not really sure
[17:43] <pitti> do we have someone from DX here?
[17:44] <tseliot> bryce: nice :-P
[17:44] <seb128> pitti, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008317.html<<BR>> [17:44] <pitti> if we would switch, would that disrupt anything that builds on top of telepathy in karmic?
[17:44] <seb128> pitti, no
[17:44] <seb128> pitti, they have parity features for pidgin and empathy
[17:44] <seb128> ie look at the list from rickspencer3 before
[17:44] <pitti> ok
[17:45] <rickspencer3> pitti, we were expecting some dependencies on telepathy, but everything that was dependent on it was postponed
[17:45] <bryce> ccheney, an argument could be made that by not switching, it establishes a higher bar and might give motivation to complete whatever features are missing by next Ubuntu release.
[17:45] <ccheney> bryce: true too
[17:45] <rickspencer3> I used empathy for irc up to a week ago
[17:45] <rickspencer3> and it crashed frequently
[17:45] <seb128> so the url I just copied has a list of small features
[17:45] <pitti> well, it really sucks for IRC, but so does pidgin
[17:45] <rickspencer3> pedro_, do you have a sense of the quality for empathy?
[17:45] <seb128> there is a lot of small things, but those small things is what make most im users enthousiastic
[17:46] <rickspencer3> pitti, right, but I'm really intersted in discussing the robustness for a moment
[17:46] <pedro_> well is not that rock solid as pidgin is right now i'd say
[17:46] <tseliot> pitti: I have no problems with IRC on pidgin here
[17:46] <tseliot> (maybe it's just me)
[17:46] <pedro_> we're still getting crashes for things like offline messages, etc
[17:46] <pitti> for me, pidgin and empathy both crash perhaps once a week or so, it's below my threshold for noticing; but I understand other protocols might be much worse
[17:46] <seb128> there is a high number of crashes in the bug list
[17:46] <seb128> but pidgin get quite some of those too to be fair
[17:47] * seb128 should switch to empathy again
[17:47] <rickspencer3> the other issue is migrating users
[17:47] <pitti> so, I think what we need is a set of criteria
[17:47] <kklimonda> heh, I can't start empathy for few days
[17:47] <pedro_> yes but at least it doesn't show you an apport window every few minutes regarding a telepathy-* something crash
[17:47] <pitti> i. e. what do we expect an IM to do to be a suitable default
[17:48] <rickspencer3> pitti, #1 it should support the most popular protocols
[17:48] <bryce> pitti, not crashing sounds important
[17:48] <pitti> support file transfer
[17:48] * tseliot agrees
[17:48] <rickspencer3> we really wanted video and voice chat, but pidgin has added that
[17:48] <seb128> the most popular are msn, yahoo and icq I would say
[17:48] <seb128> and IRC in our community
[17:49] <tseliot> seb128: and gtalk maybe
[17:49] <pedro_> jabber is becoming really popular thanks to gtalk now
[17:49] <seb128> ups, jabber for sure yes
[17:49] <pitti> seb128: well, TBH, few, if any, developer uses pidgin or empathy for IRC
[17:49] <seb128> pitti, ted does ;-)
[17:49] <jcastro> I've yet to make a successfull A/V call with either empathy or pidgin in karmic
[17:49] <pitti> but it should work, since we need a basic IRC client for the live system
[17:49] * tseliot raises his hand
[17:49] <rickspencer3> pitti, lots of people use pidgin for irc
[17:49] <seb128> jcastro, same here ...
[17:49] <crevette> hello
[17:50] <pedro_> well most of users i know use pidgin/empathy for everything , they want a single application that could handle every communication protocol out there
[17:50] <crevette> didrocks, you uploaded gnome-shell? apparently it can't find clutter-glx-1.0 and hence doesn't start
[17:50] <pitti> rickspencer3: hm; I find both absolutely useless for IRC.. but oh well
[17:50] <rickspencer3> let's talk about the rational for moving to empathy real quick
[17:50] <pedro_> so yes IRC is one of them
[17:50] <rickspencer3> crevette, fyi - we're ina team meeting atm
[17:50] <crevette> oups
[17:50] <seb128> crevette, we are in a meeting and I did upload it
[17:50] <rickspencer3> reasons for empathy:
[17:50] <crevette> sorry
[17:50] <rickspencer3> crevette, np, happens all the time
[17:51] <rickspencer3> reasons: get video chat
[17:51] <rickspencer3> 2. get a product on the gnome schedule
[17:51] <rickspencer3> 3. get telepathy and the cool things built on tubes
[17:51] <rickspencer3> 4. make the switch before an LTS
[17:51] <rickspencer3>
[17:51] <pitti> as to 4, client(karmic) == client(karmic+1)
[17:52] <rickspencer3> so, some changes
[17:52] <rickspencer3> 1. pidgin added video chat
[17:52] <rickspencer3> 3. telepathy has screen sharing now, which is pretty cool
[17:52] <rickspencer3> and also, I'm not certain the quality is where it needs to be
[17:53] <rickspencer3> pitti, will we have a chance to move the Empathy/Telepathy in 10.4, or not because it is an LTS?
[17:53] <pitti> rickspencer3: well, technically we can, of course, but I'd rather avoid it
[17:53] <jcastro> rickspencer3: I think video chat is not going to happen for either client for karmic. Both kind-of-sort-of work but not really.
[17:54] <pitti> so far the plan is that karmic+1 == karmic plus boot speed plus bug fixes
[17:54] <rickspencer3> ok
[17:54] <jcastro> Has anyone been able to make a video call with either client?
[17:54] <pitti> we won't even autosync
[17:54] <asac> what protocol is video chat going to speak? anything that also bridges to windows world?
[17:54] <pitti> audio/video is busted with empathy right now, supposedly since we didn't enable NAT traversal
[17:54] <seb128> jcastro, no
[17:54] <jcastro> pitti: I can't get it to work on a local network either.
[17:54] <rickspencer3> ok, so video is a bust in both?
[17:54] <rickspencer3> any last comments?
[17:55] <ccheney> pitti: so no new gnome in 10.04?
[17:55] <seb128> rickspencer3, right now it seems to be
[17:55] <pitti> ccheney: well, that will get the usual exception, I guess, especially for the gnome 3.0 api cleanup
[17:55] <ccheney> pitti: ok
[17:55] <pitti> ccheney: we can get new versions, but only on manual requests, not through autosyncs
[17:56] * ccheney could definitely use the time to catch up on the huge backlog of OOo bugs, heh
[17:56] <rickspencer3> so, nothing to add to the empathy vs. pidgin discussion?
[17:56] <pitti> I don't have a strong opinion about it, TBH
[17:56] <seb128> not really
[17:56] <pitti> I'm mainly concerned about rolling back in terms of breaking FF
[17:57] <pitti> and in not having telepathy for karmic+1 and DX/OLS requirements
[17:57] <rickspencer3> sticking with pidgin seems less risky for 9.10, but moving to empathy in 9.10 seems less risky for 10.04
[17:57] <seb128> I fear that a good part of our userbase loves pidgin and will be angry if we switch them to empathy for lot of small reasons
[17:57] <tseliot> seb128: +1
[17:57] <seb128> a bit less stability, lot of small things "cool kids" want in a im and empathy doesn't have, etc
[17:57] <pitti> so if we don't remove pidgin on upgrade, would that mitigate that?
[17:57] <iainfarrell> Hi all, as a newcomer can I ask a daft question?
[17:57] <ccheney> rickspencer3: yea, if we want to go to empathy for 10.04 we definitely should do it now to have more time to shake out remaining bugs and try to fix some of the feature regressions
[17:57] <rickspencer3> iainfarrell, sure, let me introduce you
[17:57] <pitti> iainfarrell: sure, we just have a meeting right now; can you wait until it's done, please?
[17:58] <seb128> pitti, I would be fine installing empathy by default in karmic and letting upgraders on pidgin
[17:58] <rickspencer3> all, meet iainfarrell he's the new project manager for the design team
[17:58] <iainfarrell> hi there
[17:58] <rickspencer3> I invited him to attend the meeting
[17:58] <bryce> heya iainfarrell
[17:58] <pitti> seb128: (that's the current behaviour anyway..)
[17:58] <iainfarrell> it's to do with the switch to Empathy
[17:58] <iainfarrell> can we move people to the new app and move all their login details and prefs?
[17:58] <pitti> iainfarrell: ah, sorry; sure, please go ahead if you want to join the current discussion
[17:58] <seb128> hey iainfarrell
[17:58] <iainfarrell> or are they basically starting again?
[17:58] <rickspencer3> oh, iainfarrell
[17:59] <seb128> the accounts are migrated
[17:59] <rickspencer3> this is well tread ground
[17:59] <iainfarrell> ahh ok
[17:59] <seb128> but settings and logs are not
[17:59] <rickspencer3> we can migrate the accounts that Empathy supports
[17:59] <iainfarrell> right, gotcha
[17:59] <rickspencer3> but Empathy functionality is not a super set of pidgin functionality
[17:59] <rickspencer3> this leads somewhat to the difficultly making this deciscion
[17:59] <rickspencer3> seb128, telepathy without empathy, does this make any sense?
[18:00] <rickspencer3> or is empathy used as the UI to initiate interactions?
[18:00] <seb128> if there is any other telepathy "consumer"
[18:00] <rickspencer3> iainfarrell, it's a good question, glad we got it here
[18:00] <seb128> it would not do a lot in karmic
[18:00] <iainfarrell> I see and would it be madness to consider both being in there so that people can carry on but making one default to new users?
[18:00] <rickspencer3> iainfarrell, worse than madness
[18:00] <rickspencer3> a violation of the essential ubuntu design ethic, we choose on behalf of the user
[18:01] <rickspencer3> "there can be only one"
[18:01] <rickspencer3> ;)
[18:01] <rickspencer3> we can install empathy only in new installs, and not remove pidgin for old installs
[18:01] <rickspencer3> (the upgrade case)
[18:01] <rickspencer3> so upgraders would end up with both
[18:02] <pitti> ^ that's in fact how Debian/Ubuntu behaves by default
[18:02] <pitti> we only offer to clean up packages after upgrade which moved to universe
[18:02] <rickspencer3> how about ...
[18:02] <pitti> so if we don't do anything, that behaviour will be exactly as rickspencer3 describes
[18:02] <seb128> well, I'm fine with that
[18:02] <rickspencer3> 1. We install empathy for new installs, leave pidgin in place
[18:02] <seb128> but apparently we got complains about having upgrades diverging from new installs
[18:02] <rickspencer3> 2. in 10.04 we move pidgin to universe?
[18:03] <rickspencer3> right sabdfl would like us to work to having upgrades and default installs as similar as possible
[18:03] <cassidy> FYI Telepathy will be used in GNOME 2.28 in: vino/vinagre, gnome-games (sudoku) and nautilus-sendto
[18:03] <cassidy> there is also a Banshee plugin (soc) but I don't know if it's already merged or not
[18:03] <rickspencer3> however, I don't think we can accomedate this in 9.10 given where we are in the schedule (unless we stick with pidgin)
[18:04] <seb128> cassidy, nautilus-sendto ... any different from what it does now to use pidgin?
[18:04] <cassidy> don't know (I don't use Pidgin ;). Probably not
[18:05] <cassidy> oh and we should make a release of telepathy-butterfly supporting audio/video in the next few days
[18:05] <seb128> what does it do you of sending the file to an im contact?
[18:05] <cassidy> what do you mean?
[18:05] <seb128> don't bother I will try
[18:05] <seb128> just to make sure what that does exactly
[18:05] <seb128> I will also try again if I can get vnc sharing or video over jabber working
[18:06] <seb128> those have all been fails until now there
[18:06] <cassidy> not sure if nautilus-sendto with latest code has been released yet
[18:06] <cassidy> seb128: be sure to have latest release of vino and vinagre
[18:06] <seb128> I've the one rolled on monday
[18:06] <cassidy> if that doesn't work for you please open bugs :)
[18:06] <seb128> is that new enough?
[18:06] <cassidy> I guess
[18:06] <pitti> seb128: I guess we need to enable NAT traversal for all that stuff to work
[18:06] <seb128> well, the issue was traversing nat
[18:06] <cassidy> that uses SOCKS5 proxy atm
[18:06] <pitti> anyway, let's discuss that after the meeting
[18:07] <pitti> too much detail
[18:07] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:07] <cassidy> so having a fast proxy on your jabber server helps a lot
[18:07] <rickspencer3> any last comments?
[18:07] <pitti> SNAFU :)
[18:07] <rickspencer3> movign on
[18:07] <cassidy> seb128: I'm about to leave, any other question?
[18:07] * rickspencer3 waits
[18:08] <seb128> cassidy, not especially we discuss it again later
[18:08] <rickspencer3> ok
[18:08] <rickspencer3> last thing for desktop team
[18:08] <rickspencer3> please check your assigned bugs for targeted bugs
[18:08] <pitti> *emphasize*
[18:08] <rickspencer3> we have two bugs targeted to A6!
[18:08] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus<<BR>> [18:09] <pitti> nothing there to be really concerned yet, but it keeps piling up
[18:09] <rickspencer3> I'll follow up individually for ones I am worried about
[18:09] <pitti> well, I rather have more bugs there than less, though
[18:09] <bryce> anyone here having any X freeze bugs?
[18:09] <pitti> bryce: o/
[18:09] <pitti> didn't get to reporting it yet, though
[18:09] <rickspencer3> bryce, I haven't gotten the updated kernel yet
[18:09] <pitti> will do
[18:09] <bryce> ok
[18:10] <rickspencer3> I've been hearing about freezes here an there
[18:10] <rickspencer3> bryce, any pattern to it?
[18:10] <bryce> I think when we get a well-reported one of those, it will be a release critical bug
[18:10] <rickspencer3> pitti, could you be that well-reported bug?
[18:10] <tseliot> bryce: is that with intel? And is it random?
[18:10] <bryce> rickspencer3, not so far. I forwarded mdz's upstream even though we don't have enough info or steps to reproduce. Upstream (predictably) de-prioritized it due to that lack.
[18:10] <pitti> bryce: I get freezes a few hours after resuming
[18:11] <bryce> tseliot, yes, and only occurs after a long while so really hard to reproduce
[18:11] <tseliot> oh
[18:11] <pitti> but never when I don't suspend, it's rock rock rock stable
[18:11] <bryce> having steps to reproduce would be *really* helpful
[18:11] <rickspencer3> so we remove the "suspend" capability from Karmic, no more freezes
[18:11] <bryce> heh
[18:11] <pitti> bryce: 1. suspend/resume, 2. wait for hours :-(
[18:11] <bryce> pitti, with or without compiz?
[18:11] <pitti> there is no apparent action which triggers it
[18:11] <pitti> bryce: compiz
[18:12] <pitti> bryce: but I'll collect the logs next time
[18:12] <bryce> ok, I have some ideas, we can chat more later.
[18:12] <pitti> GPU dump and all that
[18:12] <rickspencer3> pitti, if you suspend and run some kind of "make compiz do crazy stuff" script, maybe you can repro it faster?
[18:12] <pitti> rickspencer3: it doesn't even happen on desktop switch or that kind of stuff, but I can re-run the compiz stress test we used for the i965 problem in jaunty
[18:12] <bryce> rickspencer3, yeah we have a script which helps trigger these, I'll give pitti pointers offline
[18:12] <pitti> bryce: thanks
[18:13] <rickspencer3> ACTION: pitti to try to repro x freeze and log bug
[18:13] <pitti> $ ~bryce/bin/compiz-tramp
[18:13] <rickspencer3> ACTION: all to review release targeted bugs and fix the milestoned ones
[18:14] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to disuss piddin/empathy with seb128 and pitti and make call for Karmic
[18:14] <rickspencer3> any other business?
[18:14] <tseliot> bryce: that script might come in handy here too (I have several netbooks with intel)
[18:15] <rickspencer3> okay
[18:15] <rickspencer3> I guess that's a warp
[18:15] <rickspencer3> thanks all
[18:15] * rickspencer3 taps gavel


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DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-09-08 (last edited 2009-09-08 23:49:39 by rick-rickspencer3)