2010-02-23

For minutes of previous meetings, please see DesktopTeam/Meeting.

Meeting Minutes

Present

Main Meeting

  • Rick Spencer (rickspencer3) - chair
  • Alberto Milone (tseliot)

  • Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje)

  • Bryce Harrington (bryce)
  • Chris Cheney (ccheney)
  • Didier Roche (didrocks)
  • Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)

  • Ken VanDine (kenvandine)

  • Martin Pitt (pitti)
  • Sebastien Bacher (seb128)
  • Till Kamppeter (tkamppeter)

Eastern Edition

  • Luke Yelavich (TheMuso)

  • Robert Ancell (robert_ancell)

Apologies

Agenda

  • Outstanding actions from last meeting
  • Partner Update
  • Kubuntu Update
  • Release Bugs/Release Status
  • Featured Software
  • Review activity reports
  • Any other business

Actions from this meeting

  • ACTION: rickspencer3 to arrange call/meeting with ara, pitti, and seb128 regarding upgrade testing
  • ACTION: rickspencer3 to bring up stopping new work with statik
  • ACTION: rickspencer3 to follow up with robbiew on startup time targets
  • ACTION: rickspencer3 to start blueprint to define criteria and associated wiki page to capture list of Featured apps

Outstanding actions from last meeting

  • ACTION:rickspencer3 to engage QA wrt upgrade testings

    • Result: have received a draft upgrade plan from ara
    • Have discussed upgrade scenarios with pitti
    • Will work with ara to put them together

Ara joined the meeting and explained current upgrade testing plans and how they relate to video driver testing as well. General agreement that upgrade testing could be done a bit earlier, and certain scenarios covered.

Partner Update

OLS
  • libubuntuone and rhythmbox-ubuntuone-music-store has been uploaded, still need to get them on the CD
    • the store isn't live yet, but we are told it will be in time for alpha-3, no change to desktop required
  • new ubuntuone-client uploaded, the applet is gone
    • currently there is ubuntuone-preferences for configuring things
    • there is a control panel in the works, which will require a FFE. that will be post alpha-3

rickspencer3 wonders if perhaps the OLS team can stop new features for Lucid and focus on stabilization, citing specifically plans to introduce the control panel.

DX
  • Shifting gears to bug fix mode, not expecting uploads this week but will start uploading bug fixes every Thursday

Kubuntu Update

  • generally in a good position for feature freeze
  • Qt 4.6.2 now packaged, will be uploaded after alpha freeze
  • KOffice 2 also packaged, will be uploaded after alpha freeze
  • Mozilla approved the KDE integration patches to firefox, asac reviewing for inclusion
  • Kubuntu Netbook Remix now in a working state for Lucid
  • CDs no longer oversized, yay
  • kdebindings not compiling on ARM (the important bits do compile so we can just work around the unimportant bits)
  • ubiquity currently has some bugs, at least one blocking alpha 3

  • RC bugs http://tinyurl.com/yjybcx9

  • https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo

Mozilla Status

  • libsoup and glib done
  • ccheney working on web kit currently

There was some discussion about whether the blueprint for the new mozilla support model was on track. rickspencer3 to follow up with asac to check status.

Release Status

http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-lucid-alpha-3.html

  • Discussion of current boot time goals. Current boot charts are close to 11 seconds, which is greater than 10 seconds. robbiew suggested that the team finish existing boot work items, but postpone more invasive changes to post-lucid.
  • About 2/3 of Beta 1 work items are Dx integration items. Remaining work items should be considered low priority. rickspencer3 stresses that work items are a direct trade for quality at this point. seb128 and others press for doing some work on GDM settings.

Proposed system:

  • rickspencer3 starts a blueprint
  • define ideal number of featured apps
  • define criteria for featured apps
    • Is a GUI app
    • Does not replace a default app
    • Does not replace another featured app
    • Is well designed for the task and robust - makes the platform look good
  • solicit suggestions from blueprint
  • desktop team goes through list and picks

Other Business

Activity reports

Alberto Milone (tseliot)

  • Add connector quirk for -ati for r600 (LP: #495168)
  • Add PATH variable to nvidia-common (LP: #518879)
  • Upload new Nvidia beta driver from the 195.x series
  • Fix typo in nvidia-96 postinst script
  • Working on the new plymouth theme
  • Add support for additional separate places for messages in Plymouth (LP: #497311)

Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje)

  • off last week because of Chinese New Year holidays (national holidays in Taiwan)
  • built new language-packs for Lucid
  • catching up with email backlog
  • language-selector development

Bryce Harrington (bryce)

  • Bug Work
    • -intel bug triage
      • Run process-incomplete-bugs.py against -intel
      • Run process-crashes.py against -intel bugs
      • Expire -intel bugs with responses that are not relevant
      • Send query for modesetting -intel bugs for kernel team to triage
      • Send rick list of top most important -intel bugs for Intel to focus on
      • Send bug list to Intel
    • Triage ubuntu-x-swat bugs with patches. Sponsored a few, marked more as invalid.
    • Verify that make.log and dkms status is being collected for -nvidia and -fglrx errors
    • [libdrm] Ensure execbuf while wedged gets solved (Bug 25475)
  • Wayland
    • Fix bug where wayland is not installing 70-wayland.rules properly
  • X Freeze apport hook
    • Debug udev rule and upload fixes
    • Verify the freeze hook does trigger when the uevents fire
    • Verify that kernel registers freeze event
    • Verify the freeze hook is collecting the information upstream wants
  • Nouveau (blueprint work)
    • Sponsor upload of libdrm nouveau package
    • Sponsor upload of -nouveau driver from ppa
    • Upload xorg-server nouveau package
    • Document procedure for installing and reverting nouveau
    • Add -nouveau to xserver-xorg-video-all in xorg
    • Install -nvidia with jockey on dorset, test, then uninstall and re-test
    • Email to ubuntu-devel about -nouveau change
    • Close out all -nv bug reports filed before transition as obsolete due to move
    • Fix nouveau to allow Depends on -pae kernel (LP: #524792)
    • Ensure failsafeX works well with KMS
  • Arsenal
    • Patch page is showing bug age with []
    • Fix renamer to not rename if already have similar tag
    • In patches report, exclude bugs tagged 'patch-needswork'
    • Exclude Fix Committed bugs in patch report
  • XDiagnose (blueprint work)
    • Set up xdiagnose project
    • Copy failsafeX files to xdiagnose tree
  • Kernel DRM backport decisionmaking
    • Investigate what bits to pull in for radeon
    • Decide blacklisting vs. backporting for radeon

Chris Cheney (ccheney)

  • Finished libsoup backport
  • Finished glib2.0 backport
  • Working on webkit backport
  • Investigate why ttf-sil-gentium font is needed by OOo for slangasek
  • Uploaded openoffice.org-dictionaries 1:3.2.0~rc2-1ubuntu2
  • Security
    • Uploaded openoffice.org 2.4.1-1ubuntu2.3 to hardy-security
    • Uploaded openoffice.org 2.4.1-11ubuntu2.3 to intrepid-security
    • Uploaded openoffice.org 3.0.1-9ubuntu3.2 to jaunty-security
    • Uploaded openoffice.org 3.1.1-5ubuntu1.1 to karmic-security

Didier Roche (didrocks)

WI related:

  • wallpaper cache:
    • gnome-destkop:
      • invest on using serializing wallpaper storage instead of compressing it again (suggested by upstream). Unfortunately, pitti's benchmark showed that the SSD read size VS CPU has no gain. And that's even worse with an hard drive with a bigger image. Revert the change.
      • change to keep maximum quality on jpeg file
      • support multimonitor: only clean wallpaper cache with same transformation and resolution
    • casper:
      • copy the wallpaper cache created at boot time to the main user's directory. First boot will take it into account in ureadahead profiling
  • 3D/2D fallback
    • roll a new release of netbook-launcher to get 3D/2D fallback on netbook-launcher-efl
    • package management to get n-l-efl on the CD
  • help mobile team to get their own "2D" only session
  • Gwibber MIR updated with last requirements

All alpha3 WI implemented. The "populate wallpaper cache on update" has been done by in a hackish way and not idea in the team how to do in an other way for the moment. The hack hasn't been pushed and the item is Postponed so.

Not WI related:

Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)

Ken VanDine (kenvandine)

  • finished off gwibber logging, we now get log files
  • split out docs for egenix-mx-base, saving about 1M of gwibber deps
  • removed unused icons and split out extra themes into a gwibber-themes package saving another 200K
  • more gwibber dbus fixes, making method names and signatures more C/Vala friendly
  • updates for libubuntuone, rhythmbox-ubuntu-one-store, couchdb-glib, evolution-couchdb and others

Luke Yelavich (TheMuso)

Martin Pitt (pitti)

Assigned blueprints: All implemented

Done:

  • Bug fixing: apport, cups, gnome-menus, gnome-power-manager, libatasmart, policykit-1-gnome, udisks, upower
  • Ported indicator-session to upower

  • Created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport/SymptomIdeas, discussed with cr3

  • Boot speed work:
    • Optimized all Xsession.d scripts, now it is down to pretty much one external program call in a default installation, and no expensive operations any more.
    • Shifted startup sequence around some more to get a better utilized CPU profile

  • Packaged upower, moved lucid over from DeviceKit-Power to upower

  • Reviewed package hooks for which could set default bug titles
  • Catch up on MIR reviews from FF rush
  • CD testing, release engineering
  • Lots of bug triage

Sponsoring:

  • bansheelyricsplugin, casper, cryptsetup, ddclient, egenix-mx-base, gnome-desktop, indicator-application, mozvoikko

Robert Ancell (robert_ancell)

Sebastien Bacher (seb128)

  • desktop, dx updates: ido libindicate libindicator indicator-sound indicator-me pidgin seahorse glib gtksourceview file-roller gnome-desktop pygtksourceview nautilus gedit gnome-menus eog tomboy gnome-media libgweather
  • backported indicator-application fixes
  • backported debian change to rhythmbox to split binaries
  • changed libgpod to fix a rhythmbox build issue
  • fixed rhythmbox application indicator default icon
  • looked at installing gnome-user-share by default for obexpush support,
    • discussed changes on IRC, filed mir, build without the apache recommends
  • changed gnome-bluetooth to recommends gnome-user-share
  • updated papyon using the current debian version
  • backported upstream libgpod change to speed ipods syncing
  • changed mako to not recommends python-beakers
  • backported Cody's indicator fix to avoid rhythmbox crash on closing
  • tested gtk csd changes, reported a crash issue in french locale which Cody
    • worked on a fixed during the night, uploaded csd to lucid next day
  • did a rhythmbox git snapshot to lucid
  • backported an indicator-sound trunk fix for keyboard navigation
  • tested gnome-keyring update, did new git snapshot, uploaded to lucid
  • discussed performance issues due to gtk csd changes with Cody who again did
    • rocking work and managed to fix those and some other issues too
  • updated gnome-keyring to fix some small issues with the upgrade
  • backported indicator-application menu sensitivy update fix to lucid
  • sponsoring: humanity-icon-theme*3 libubuntuone*2 rhythmbox-ubuntuone-music-store*2 libdbusmenu libindicate gnome-user-share

Till Kamppeter (tkamppeter)

  • system-config-printer/Jockey: After switching over the OpenPrinting web server to a new web app, tested automatic driver package and PPD download with system-config-printer. Karmic works after server-side fixes. Reported Lucid problems of package download to pitti (Jockey maintainer). Created patch for system-config-printer to do web queries in a standard-conforming way, supporting redirects on the server.

  • lsb package: Made the "lsb" package installable without an MTA being pulled in by adding a pseudo MTA to it. This allows installing distribution-independent LSB packages (like third-party desktop applications or printer drivers from OpenPrinting) without installing a daemon and without configuration questions which have nothing to do with the originally installed package (LP: #141641).

  • lsb package: Made the main package depending on the "lsb-printing" package as the printing environment is required by the LSB from version 3.2 on (LP: #386128).
  • HPLIP: Committed Kees Cook's changes into the Debian SVN repository.
  • Answered and triaged printing-related bug reports.

IRC Logs

[16:31] <rickspencer3> first is actions from last meeting
[16:31] <bryceh> heya
[16:31] <rickspencer3> and I was the only one with an action, and I actually did it for a change!
[16:32] <rickspencer3> rickspencer3 to engage QA wrt upgrade testings
[16:32] <rickspencer3> so turns out ara has an upgrade testing plan she is working on
[16:33] <rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Upgrade<<BR>> [16:33] <rickspencer3> ara, any comments or thoughts?
[16:33] <ara> yes, sure
[16:33] <rickspencer3> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Upgrade<<BR>> [16:34] <ara> what we want is that during the next UGJ, which occurs between Beta1 and Beta2, we encourage people joining the Jam to upgrade their systems to Lucid
[16:34] <tkamppeter> hi
[16:35] <ara> we will try to train their LoCo contacts how to help others to report the bugs
[16:35] <ara> and look for possible regressions
[16:35] <rickspencer3> ara is there anyway to get started looking at certain upgrade scenarios sooner?
[16:35] <ara> hopefully that will give us different configurations, with different drivers, packages installed, etc.
[16:35] <Riddell> UGJ?
[16:36] <ara> Ubuntu Global Jam
[16:36] <ara> yes, that was my next question. that maybe that was a bit late in the dev cycle
[16:36] <huats> hello everyone
[16:36] <ara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam<<BR>> [16:37] <ara> rickspencer3, what kind of scenarios are you most interested in?
[16:37] <rickspencer3> ara, also, apparantly upgrades for uses who have proprietary drivers installed has been problematic in the past
[16:37] <rickspencer3> so folks who have been upgrading over multiple versions, and have proprietary graphics or wireless drivers
[16:37] <tseliot> naah :-P
[16:38] <pitti> one thing that woudl be particularly interesting is a dapper->hardy->lucid upgrade with nvidia drivers installed
[16:38] <rickspencer3> anyone have any thoughts for ara about how we could work together to get some of this testing done?
[16:38] <ara> rickspencer3, we are running a project for people with ATI & nVIDIA cards with proprietary drivers
[16:38] <ara> rickspencer3, http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/xorg_prop_drivers/<<BR>> [16:38] <pitti> since that will exercise pretyt much all the changes that we applied to them (l-r-m -> dkms -> alternatives)
[16:38] <ara> rickspencer3, we can tell the same testers to test the upgrade
[16:38] <seb128> pitti, I got a friend who had that broken but with ->karmic rather than ->lucid
[16:38] <davmor2> pitti: I can do the multiple upgrades on nvidia but not today
[16:39] <seb128> (not really a meeting topic)
[16:39] <ara> so, for the nVIDIA one, we have quite a long list of people willing to test things
[16:39] <rickspencer3> nice
[16:39] <ara> here is the list of people who signed up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Testing/ProprietaryDrivers/WeeklyProgram<<BR>> [16:40] <tseliot> in the case of ATI we don't have a (working) proprietary driver yet
[16:40] <ara> but, the difference is that it is not the same thing to ask people to install lucid fresh in a different partition
[16:40] <seb128> tseliot, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-180/+bug/467490 you might want to look at for lucid
[16:40] <ara> than telling them to upgrade their own system
[16:40] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 467490 in nvidia-graphics-drivers-180 "nvidia drivers don't work due to -Q in obsolete /etc/modprobe.d/lrm-video" [High,Triaged]
[16:41] <rickspencer3> ara, what is the best way for us to engage you now, in terms of doing some testing earlier and with a few different scenarios?
[16:41] <rickspencer3> should we have a call or something?
[16:41] <rickspencer3> or a specific irc meeting for this topic?
[16:42] <ara> rickspencer3, either is fine
[16:42] <rickspencer3> who here is interested in joining me in this discussion?
[16:42] <rickspencer3> (question for everyone, not just Canonical staff)
[16:42] <tseliot> seb128: /etc/modprobe.d/lrm-video shouldn't exist any more. But (unfortunately) the file is not removed because it used to live in /etc...
[16:42] <pitti> o/
[16:43] * rickspencer3 cues cricket noises
[16:43] <seb128> tseliot, right, need to preinst clean it
[16:43] <rickspencer3> ara, thanks so much for your engagement so far on this
[16:43] <seb128> rickspencer3, can do ;-)
[16:43] <tseliot> seb128: hopefully only in nvidia-common instead of doing the same thing in each driver
[16:44] <rickspencer3> I'll follow up with you to discuss next steps
[16:44] <ara> rickspencer3, sure, thanks!
[16:44] <rickspencer3> ara, sound ok?
[16:44] <rickspencer3> great
[16:44] <rickspencer3> ok, moving on, or any last thoughts wrt upgrade testing?
[16:44] <pitti> tseliot: if that's a dep of all of them, cleaning up in -common is fine
[16:44] <tseliot> pitti: yep
[16:44] * rickspencer3 has lost control of the meeting
[16:44] <pitti> rickspencer3: would be interesting to have mvo in the call
[16:45] <rickspencer3> aaah
[16:45] <rickspencer3> pitti, ack
[16:45] <rickspencer3> good idea
[16:45] <pitti> rickspencer3: since he runs the automatic upgrade testing machinery
[16:45] <tseliot> pitti: actually all of the modaliases depend on nvidia-common
[16:45] <rickspencer3> yeah
[16:45] <rickspencer3> ok, back to the agenda ...
[16:45] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, partner update?
[16:45] <kenvandine> ok
[16:46] <kenvandine> hopefully things are quieting down from DX, shifting to bug fix mode
[16:46] <kenvandine> OLS just landed the rb plugin for the music store and libubuntuone, and seeded to the CD
[16:46] <kenvandine> however the store isn't actually live yet, but will be by alpha-3
[16:46] <rickspencer3> kewl
[16:46] <kenvandine> all the "go live bits" should be server side
[16:47] <kenvandine> so no more changes on the desktop before going live, we think
[16:47] <kenvandine> ubuntuone-client no longer provides the applet, but just a preferences tool
[16:47] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, so it sounds like A3 is substantially what Ubuntu will be at release?
[16:47] <rickspencer3> oops, sorry, thought you were done
[16:47] <kenvandine> there is more of a control panel in the works, which will land after alpha-3 pending a FFE
[16:47] <kenvandine> :)
[16:48] <kenvandine> there is still a question on how you get feedback/notifications on the state of U1 file syncing
[16:48] <rickspencer3> hehe
[16:48] <kenvandine> without the applet, you really how no status
[16:48] <kenvandine> which was planned for the Me Menu
[16:48] <kenvandine> but didn't make it
[16:48] <kenvandine> that's all i have
[16:49] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, I logged a but on that am talking to design team about fixing that last point
[16:49] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, great
[16:49] <rickspencer3> I wonder if we can just cut the control panel and bug fix from here on out
[16:49] <kenvandine> i bet pitti and seb128 are glad the applet is gone though :)
[16:49] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to bring up stopping new work with statik
[16:49] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, i think there are parts of that that are important
[16:49] <rickspencer3> kenvandine, ack
[16:49] <pitti> it's not really a benchmark thing (since U1 is off by default), but it's still a CPU killer
[16:50] <kenvandine> yeah, bring it up with statik
[16:50] <pitti> so it's nice for power consumption, etc.
[16:50] <rickspencer3> but shipping is a feature, and shipping solid code is a great feature ;)
[16:50] <kenvandine> pitti, indeed.. pgraner had some interesting stats on that at the sprint
[16:50] <kenvandine> rickspencer3, yup :)
[16:50] <rickspencer3> pitti, yeah, the new design just needs a tweak here and there and will be much lighter in terms of UI and other overhead
[16:50] <rickspencer3> thanks kenvandine
[16:50] <pitti> the sync daemon is pretty much the death for any battery anyway, though :)
[16:51] <rickspencer3> Riddell, Kubuntu?
[16:51] <kenvandine> pitti, pgraner did some benchmarking... quite scary
[16:51] <kenvandine> :/
[16:51] <Riddell> * generally in a good position for feature freeze
[16:51] <Riddell> * Qt 4.6.2 now packaged, will be uploaded after alpha freeze
[16:51] <Riddell> * KOffice 2 also packaged, will be uploaded after alpha freeze
[16:51] <Riddell> * Mozilla approved the KDE integration patches to firefox, asac reviewing for inclusion
[16:51] <Riddell> * Kubuntu Netbook Remix now in a working state for Lucid
[16:51] <Riddell> * CDs no longer oversized, yay
[16:51] <Riddell> * kdebindings not compiling on ARM (the important bits do compile so we can just work around the unimportant bits)
[16:51] <Riddell> * ubiquity currently has some bugs, at least one blocking alpha 3
[16:51] <Riddell> * RC bugs http://tinyurl.com/yjybcx9<<BR>> [16:51] <Riddell> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo<<BR>> [16:51] <pitti> Riddell: oh, nice! how long did you sqeeze the CDs until they fit? :)
[16:52] <rickspencer3> hehe
[16:52] <asac> the review of kde changes looks good
[16:52] <rickspencer3> thanks Riddell
[16:52] <Riddell> pitti: some gnome stuff had crept on so we threw that out and we cut out some artwork that wasn't vital
[16:52] <asac> will go up after a3 ... Riddell: will take care of FFed?
[16:53] <rickspencer3> always a pleasure to see the awesome work of the Kubuntu team, you guys rock
[16:53] <Riddell> asac: great. yes I can
[16:53] <rickspencer3> asac, Riddell when we have a new mozilla maintainer next week, I will ask him to engage with the KDE mozilla stuff
[16:54] <rickspencer3> Riddell, thanks
[16:54] <rickspencer3> moving on ...
[16:54] <rickspencer3> oops
[16:54] <rickspencer3> forgot to put in mozilla status
=== jono_ is now known as jono
[16:54] <rickspencer3> ccheney, how is the the new support model work going?
=== jono is now known as Guest66435
[16:55] <asac> from what i know ccheney is quite close to get epiphany done
[16:55] <ccheney> rickspencer3: got the first pass of soup and glib done, working on webkit now
[16:55] <rickspencer3> asac, overall is the project on track schedule wise?
[16:55] <ccheney> first pass meaning when i get to higher levels things might turn up, but they seem to work as is currently
[16:55] <asac> rickspencer3: as much as it can be ...
[16:56] <asac> the staging happens here: https://edge.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/+archive/ffox35/+packages<<BR>> [16:56] <asac> (sorry for reuse of ppa name)
[16:56] <asac> we have about one month to get the high risk apps done now
[16:56] <rickspencer3> ug
[16:56] <asac> with epiphany being the most important one
[16:56] <rickspencer3> given how long the glib/soup thing took, that sounds at risk to me
[16:57] <asac> rickspencer3: well, epiphany is special
[16:57] <asac> its a backport to a new library
[16:57] <asac> the others are just forward porting to xulrunner-1.9.2 and we already have a few done ... with more coming every day
[16:57] <rickspencer3> ok
[16:57] <asac> the high risks are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Lucid/FirefoxNewSupportModel/xulrunner-list at the bottom
[16:58] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to follow up on new mozilla support model work offline so he can sleep tonight
[16:58] <asac> good
[16:58] <rickspencer3> thanks asac and ccheney
[16:58] <rickspencer3> moving on
[16:58] <rickspencer3> release status
[16:58] * rickspencer3 hands mic to pitti
[16:58] <pitti> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-lucid-alpha-3.html<<BR>> [16:59] <pitti> so, we are pretty good for alpha-3, great job team!
[16:59] <pitti> pretty much the only thing that's left is boot performance
[16:59] <pitti> which is what I wanted to discuss a bit
[16:59] <pitti> http://people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-bootcharts/20100223.1-max-netbook.png<<BR>> [16:59] <rickspencer3> !
[16:59] <pitti> current state of the art
[16:59] <pitti> I have to say that this is a very "lucky" chart
[17:00] <pitti> usually they look like http://people.canonical.com/~scott/daily-bootcharts/20100223-max-netbook.png , with a huge "dent" in teh CPU bar at the end
[17:00] <pitti> we have one remaining thing in the pipe (drop notify-osd startup on boot)
[17:00] <pitti> but then that's pretty much what we can do with sane amount of efforts
[17:00] <pitti> clearly we didn't reach "10 s" in the current state
[17:00] <pitti> so my question is, how much further do we need to push this?
[17:01] <pitti> I had a look at optimizing udisks, and there might be some doable things there, but we need to start it
[17:01] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to follow up with robbiew on startup time targets
[17:01] <pitti> and I don't know of anything obvious any more which we can drop or defer
[17:02] <ccheney> pitti: so there is 3s difference between reboots, or just how the install happens to lay it out on disk or what exactly?
[17:02] <pitti> unless anyone has a bright idea still?
[17:02] <rickspencer3> pitti, seb128 great job!!
[17:02] <seb128> thanks
[17:02] <pitti> ccheney: no, there were a couple of package updates in between
[17:02] <ccheney> pitti: oh ok
[17:02] <pitti> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/bootcharts/daniel-lucid-20100222-1.png<<BR>> [17:02] <pitti> I'd say this is a typical chart
[17:02] <robbiew> rickspencer3: I'm fine with stopping after notify-osd work...for boot perf
[17:03] <seb128> pitti, no plymouth
[17:03] <pitti> I have an idea how to fix the dent at the end, but it involves bad hackery
[17:03] <seb128> ?
[17:03] <pitti> and the DX team doesn't like that
[17:03] <pitti> seb128: right, plymouth is terminally broken on my mini
[17:03] <pitti> I need to uninstall it to work with it at all
[17:03] * tseliot cough cough
[17:03] <rickspencer3> everyone stop talking!!
[17:03] <rickspencer3> didn't you see what robbiew just said
[17:03] <rickspencer3> :)
[17:03] <pitti> :)
[17:03] <seb128> ;-)
[17:03] <robbiew> lol
[17:03] <rickspencer3> j/k
[17:04] <pitti> so, I think we can do some remaining thing and get a consistent 12 s
[17:04] <pitti> with 11 on lucky cases
[17:04] <pitti> another thing
[17:04] <rickspencer3> that's a *real* 12 s right?
[17:04] <didrocks> that's celebration day, so. End of bootspeed fight? ;)
[17:04] <pitti> bootchart itself has 8% overhead
[17:04] <rickspencer3> not under magical never actually achieved circumstances
[17:04] <rickspencer3> didrocks, not quite, but soon
[17:04] <pitti> i. e. if bootchart says 11 s, it's 10.3 without boot chart
[17:04] <pitti> robbiew: ^
[17:04] <robbiew> sorry to barge in...just saying that given where we are at in the release cycle, we shouldn't be doing any invasive changes to meet bootspeed targets
[17:04] <rickspencer3> thanks robbiew
[17:04] <pitti> rickspencer3: Scott's charts are the bare, brutal reality
[17:05] <pitti> no hacks at all
[17:05] <rickspencer3> you didn't barge in, we summoned you
[17:05] <pitti> clean install
[17:05] <seb128> didrocks, I would say fight just start, we need to stay there ;-)
[17:05] <pitti> robbiew: do you know how much I love you for saying that?
[17:05] <rickspencer3> pitti, I was referring to certain other demos that show fast boot by other distros ;)
[17:05] <pitti> lol
[17:05] <robbiew> do you know how much I love you for the work you've done with work item tracker :P
[17:05] * rickspencer3 doesn't want to start trolling other communities
[17:05] <pitti> we got 59 work items done for this!
[17:05] <pitti> and 3 in progress
[17:06] <rickspencer3> robbiew, be careful what you ask for, the desktop team will actually do it!
[17:06] * rickspencer3 sinff
[17:06] <kenvandine> :)
[17:06] <pitti> ok, so I consider optimizing udisks as a hobby thing
[17:06] <pitti> (it's strange, it only started to eat so much CPU recently; nothing serious changed since that in udisks itself)
[17:06] <rickspencer3> pitti, based on my experience that means we can expect to see it in the distro on Monday?
[17:07] <rickspencer3> j/k
[17:07] <pitti> rickspencer3: absolutely
[17:07] <rickspencer3> pitti, thanks for the update
[17:07] <pitti> rickspencer3: libnotify is in the desktop PPA
[17:07] <pitti> just blocked by the A3 freeze
[17:07] <rickspencer3> so pursuant to robbiew's point
[17:07] <pitti> and nm-applet/g-p-m are in the works
[17:07] <seb128> pitti, soft freeze, just upload ;-)
[17:07] <rickspencer3> what work items do we have for post A3?
[17:07] * rickspencer3 would he happy to see an empty list here
[17:07] <pitti> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-10.04-beta-1.html<<BR>> [17:07] <pitti> 2/3 of it is "DX integration" (hello kenvandine)
[17:07] <seb128> urg
[17:07] <kenvandine> hehe
[17:08] <rickspencer3> right
[17:08] <rickspencer3> so the other 1/3
[17:08] <pitti> most bits are just stragglers from alpha-3 (some cleanup, wirting docs, QA)
[17:08] <rickspencer3> can we cut those?
[17:08] <qense> wasn't the red part supposed to become smaller? :O
[17:08] <rickspencer3> ah, that kind of stuff
[17:08] <pitti> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-gdmsetup<<BR>> [17:08] <rickspencer3> cut
[17:08] <pitti> that's a target of opportunity, seb128's pet project
[17:08] <rickspencer3> :)
[17:08] <pitti> and I'd really like to see it
[17:08] <pitti> with an afternoon's work we can make a huge difference there
[17:08] <rickspencer3> ok, but we can't have our cake and eat it too
[17:09] <pitti> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-language-selector<<BR>> [17:09] <seb128> I just need to stop sleeping
[17:09] <seb128> ;-)
[17:09] <pitti> I added that one as well as a target of opportunity
[17:09] <didrocks> oh, seb128's stole on my done WI on gdmsetup :-)
[17:09] <rickspencer3> I'm not saying "no" but an afternoon's work is one or two bugs fixed
[17:09] * didrocks runs and cries ;)
[17:09] <pitti> seb128: "ToP"; if it's not done, it's not done
[17:09] * pitti desperately points to the "Low" priority
[17:09] <rickspencer3> and bug fixes can push ToP out of the release
[17:09] <pitti> absolutely
[17:09] <pitti> sorry, "ToO" actually :)
[17:10] <seb128> didrocks, if you want some WIs I can give you some too...
[17:10] <pitti> rickspencer3: http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-10.04-beta-2.html is really nice, though :)
[17:10] <rickspencer3> ok, but just be aware that any new work is a direct trade for quality
[17:10] <pitti> "how precise can you draw a bar to 3.0000000 work items"
[17:10] <didrocks> seb128: well, as a pet project gdmsetup can be fun ;)
[17:10] <rickspencer3> heh
[17:11] <rickspencer3> ok, I'll get off my soapbox now
[17:11] <rickspencer3> :)
[17:11] <rickspencer3> pitti, done?
[17:11] <pitti> done
[17:11] <pitti> other than that, bug hunting time!
[17:11] <pitti> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/lucid-fixes-report.html<<BR>> [17:11] <rickspencer3> pitti, thank you ... you have done an amazing job navigating the team through a huge amount of work this cycle
[17:11] <rickspencer3> really remarkable leadership
[17:11] <pitti> we need to crank the number to >= 5000
[17:11] * rickspencer3 does little solute
[17:11] <pitti> *blush*
[17:12] <rickspencer3> pitti, nice list, let's crash qa.ubuntu because it can't handle how big the list will get!
[17:12] <seb128> pitti, I just closed a bunch of desktop-lucid-dx-integration beta-1 items
[17:12] <pitti> seb128: yay you
[17:12] <seb128> the blueprint has things which were already done, like compiz changes and some dx tasks
[17:12] <pitti> rickspencer3: ... or firefox :)
[17:12] <rickspencer3> hehe
[17:13] <rickspencer3> ok, moving on, one last quick topic, from me
[17:13] <rickspencer3> mvo has brought into being the Featured category for software-center
[17:13] <rickspencer3> robert_ancell made a great suggestion for how to fill it up
[17:13] <rickspencer3> here are my thoughts, please comment ...
[17:14] <rickspencer3> rickspencer3 starts a blueprint
[17:14] <rickspencer3> define ideal number of featured apps
[17:14] <rickspencer3> define criteria for featured apps
[17:14] <rickspencer3> Is a GUI app
[17:14] <rickspencer3> Does not replace a default app
[17:14] <rickspencer3> Does not replace another featured app
[17:14] <rickspencer3> Is well designed for the task and robust - makes the platform look good
[17:14] <rickspencer3> solicit suggestions from blueprint
[17:14] <rickspencer3> desktop team goes through list and picks
[17:14] <rickspencer3> oops, lost the formatting
[17:14] <pitti> things like...
[17:14] <pitti> GIMP!!!
[17:14] <rickspencer3> the basic idea is that we get the community to suggest apps, and we go through and compare them to criteria and decide in this meeting
[17:14] <pitti> I suppose?
[17:14] <pitti> or inkscape?
[17:14] <didrocks> "Does not replace a default app" -> Abiword is already in the "featured" list and it replaces OOo
[17:15] <rickspencer3> didrocks, yeah, good point
[17:15] <rickspencer3> maybe that's not a great criteria
[17:15] <pitti> I actually like that criterion
[17:15] <rickspencer3> didrocks, maybe there should be a shade of meaning to it
[17:15] <seb128> didrocks, the current list is random pick from mvo right now
[17:15] <pitti> one of Ubuntu's founding principles is to select the best app for one purpose, after all
[17:15] <mvo> I just put abiword in because gimp was lonely
[17:15] <seb128> just to have something there
[17:15] * seb128 hugs mvo
[17:15] <rickspencer3> like abi is a work processor, and writer is a word processor, but they don't replace each other
[17:15] <mvo> I'm fine with whatever policy we come up with :)
[17:16] <seb128> mvo, great work!
[17:16] <pitti> mvo: inkscape would be a great addition, I think
[17:16] * pitti cheers and hugs mvo
[17:16] * rickspencer3 would bring up that mvo has also added PPAs to software-center but doesn't want to derail the meeting
[17:16] <jcastro> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~b-sides/b-sides/trunk/annotate/head:/minimal-all <-- I started a list here
[17:16] <jcastro> there is some crack there but a bunch of those meet your criteria
[17:16] <pitti> b-sides, awesome!
[17:16] <rickspencer3> pitti, seb128 thoughts on me starting a blueprint for this?
[17:16] <jcastro> we are talking about "fifth toe" like apps like from back in the day
[17:16] <seb128> rickspencer3, +1
[17:17] <rickspencer3> seems like the right place to discuss and get feedback on a "feature"
[17:17] <didrocks> I mostly agree with abiword being there. Just point the "replace" this. I don't know how to say "don't replace completely a default app" or "have a different targeted audience"?
[17:17] <seb128> rickspencer3, blueprint, wikipage, as you want
[17:17] <pitti> rickspencer3: keeping a list in a wiki page seems better, but I don't mind much
[17:17] <rickspencer3> seb128, I'll go blueprint, seems more "official"
[17:17] <seb128> ok
[17:17] <pitti> with BP we'll have WIs
[17:17] * mvo hugs jcastro for the name
[17:17] <rickspencer3> I have an idea, I'll take care of it
[17:17] <rickspencer3> :)
[17:17] <LaserJock> could brainstorm be used for this app review?
[17:17] <seb128> wiki makes easier to keep track of who changes what to
[17:17] <jcastro> mvo: the reason I didn't push b-sides as a project was that I knew it would come handy in software center some day.
[17:18] <mvo> heh :)
[17:18] <rickspencer3> ACTION: rickspencer3 to start blueprint to define criteria and associated wiki page to capture list of Featured apps
[17:18] <seb128> ;-)
[17:18] <rickspencer3> any other business?
[17:18] <pitti> lucid rocks
[17:19] <pitti> (once we get plymouth fixed *cough*)
[17:19] <bryceh> rickspencer3, I think you have to exclude abiword
[17:19] <tseliot> :-)
[17:19] <rickspencer3> bryceh, because it's in Universe?
[17:19] <bryceh> if there start being exceptions to "does not replace..." then the peanut gallery is going to start requesting alternatives for >everything<
[17:19] <rickspencer3> bryceh, right, we'll have to define it carefully
[17:19] <rickspencer3> I
[17:20] <LaserJock> so TBird is out? :-)
[17:20] <didrocks> so, no vlc as well?
[17:20] <rickspencer3> m thinking of including Use Case or something
[17:20] <rickspencer3> hmmm
[17:20] <rickspencer3> good points
[17:20] <didrocks> that's the issue with popular softwares ;)
[17:20] <bryceh> there's plenty of good apps out there
[17:20] <kenvandine> hehe
[17:20] <rickspencer3> I just don't think we need 5 photo organizers, tbh
[17:20] <jcastro> right
[17:20] <jcastro> it should be "the rest of the disc"
[17:20] <rickspencer3> that was the one that concerned me the most
[17:20] <bryceh> it's good that we're defining one complete set that is our opinion of "the best collection"
[17:21] <rickspencer3> how about "no more than 1 replacement app"?
[17:21] <rickspencer3> let's call the meeting done, but continue this discussion as desired?
[17:21] <rickspencer3> pitti, sound ok?
[17:21] <bryceh> rickspencer3, stay firm :-)
[17:21] <jcastro> apps that would be awesome to have but might be too corner case or not enough room. A person should be able to select them all and install them and have a better ubuntu overall, not more mp3 players, etc.
[17:21] <seb128> I would say 0 duplicate
[17:21] <bryceh> I really hate open office, but I do think this is the right way to go
[17:21] <LaserJock> perhaps "if it is a replacment app it should have a distinguising use case" or something

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