2010-08-10

For minutes of previous meetings, please see DesktopTeam/Meeting.

Meeting Minutes

Present

Main Meeting

  • Bryce Harrington (bryce)
  • Chris Coulson (chrisccoulson)
  • Didier Roche (didrocks)
  • Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)
  • Ken VanDine (kenvandine)

  • Martin Pitt (pitti)
  • Sebastien Bacher (seb128)
  • Till Kamppeter (tkamppeter)

Eastern Edition

  • Luke Yelavich (TheMuso)

  • Robert Ancell (robert_ancell)
  • Chris Halse Rogers (RAOF)

Apologies

  • Rick Spencer (rickspencer3) - chair
  • Gary Lasker (tremolux)

Agenda

  • Outstanding actions from last meeting
  • Partner Update
  • Kubuntu Update
  • Release Bugs/Release Status
  • Review activity reports
  • Any other business

Discussion

Actions from this meeting

Outstanding actions from last meeting

Partner Update

UbuntuOne

  • Weekly releases

  • UbuntuOne "generations" work has landed for the client, this is the peformance improvements for file sync. There are still a few items to finish on the server side, but that will be done very soon.

  • single signon client will be landing in maverick this week.
  • Include a default message in evolution, explaining how to effectively use UbuntuOne LP: #615874

  • Include a default note in Tomboy explaining tomboy note syncing with UbuntuOne LP: #615876

  • Include a default bookmark in firefox for a UbuntuOne landing page LP: #615889

DX

  • Weekly releases

  • libappindicator updates, including label support
  • indicator-appmenu updates including Desktop menu support
  • hopefully have mpris2 support land in rhythmbox so indicator-sound can raise rb

Kubuntu Update

Release Status

http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html

UNE update

  • New unity release this week, not a lot of new features, but more on transitions.
  • We got new mutter and clutter, with added love of battery power saving and rendering optimization.
  • This release is brought to you with the new zeitgeist, making extensions possible. Now the FTS (Full Text Search) is a separate package (zeitgeist-fts-extension) and no more a patch but a new package.
  • The MIR for the fts extension is done, and I just wait for the package to be promoted to main to make both unity places depend on it. Until then, the search is semi-broken in unity ATM. ((https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zeitgeist-extensions/+bug/614327))

USC update

Other Business

Activity reports

Bryce Harrington (bryce)

Chris Coulson (chrisccoulson)

  • General
    • Lots of packaging changes to Firefox:
      • Worked to consolidate the lp:firefox/3.6 (maverick) and lp:firefox (4.0) branches, since they'd diverged substantially
      • Switched lp:firefox to internal libraries and turned on the crash reporter
      • Reworked how we launch abrowser and dropped some complexity from the wrapper script and packaging. I also dropped a now-unnecessary patch
      • Blacklisted Firefox in Apport
      • Refreshed the favicons in all of our default bookmarks, so you get the latest Ubuntu branding on first launch
      • Updated lp:firefox to autogenerate all versioned debhelper files. This should save us some time in the future, and makes it easier to merge changes between branches when all the files aren't named differently
      • Ported cairo patch to FF4.0
    • Merged tracker 0.8.15 from Debian
    • Dropped the la file in librest (so I could build tracker 0.9.15 without linking it against lots of things it didn't need)
    • Updated the packaging in connman and ofono at the same time as sponsoring the new versions
    • Planning beta work
    • Reviewed a Firefox merge to add Russian translations to desktop files
    • Thunderbird 3.1 update:
      • Plan work needed for Lucid and build list of extensions to update
      • Discussing how to support pre-Lucid releases - the current plan is to carry on supporting TB2.0.0.24
  • Bugs
  • Sponsoring
    • connman 0.55 (twice)
    • ofono 0.26
    • enigmail-locales (lucid SRU)
  • Work items

Chris Halse Rogers (RAOF)

Didier Roche (didrocks)

  • UNE:
    • new release: zeitgeist, libzeigeist, clutk, dee, unity
    • mutter transition done.
    • new clutter and add symbols file to it
    • new package done and NEWed: zeitgeist-extensions, MIR done for zeitgeist-fts-extension (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zeitgeist-extensions/+bug/614327), needs promotion to main

    • go-home-applet: remove some dep on netbook-launcher
    • alpha3 iso desktop et netbook testing
  • Destkop:
    • libgee: add a symbols file as requested on the MIR
    • evolution: fix bug #613413 (no junk icon)
    • evolution-exchange: fix FTBFS
    • begin to have a look at the debian ubuntu diff in OpenOffice.org. Dropped a lot of uneeded one and clean the packaging as well. More review needed still.

  • Misc:
    • sponsoring: cairo-dock, cairo-dock-plugins, fetchmail, gnu-efi, evolution (2 papercuts), mtdev, gegl
    • handle libpoppler5 and libpoppler-glib4 transition (fix NBS), various rebuild and minor fix:
      • pdf-presenter-conole, xournal, python-poppler, referencer, pdf2svg, gpdftext, epdfview, gdcm, apvlv, gnome-commander, cups, pdfcube, klib, gamba2, pdftoipe, pd2djvu, popplerkit.framework, texlive-bin, luatex

      -> still libpoppler-glib-ruby1.8 which FTBFS in my pbuilder, didn't have the time to have a look yet.

Gary Lasker (tremolux)

Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)

  • KDE SC 4.5 packaging, testing, releasing
  • packagekit and kpackagekit updates
  • dbusmenu-qt, plasma-widget-menu and other DX updates
  • package new soprano version, investigate reported problem in version packaged in lucid, couldn't track it down unfortunately
  • fix libqtgtl linking and poke upstream
  • Put dragon back on the CD
  • enable message indicator in quassel and konversion and kopete
  • test and release Alpha 3

Ken VanDine (kenvandine)

  • desktop-maverick-empathy-indicator
    • - got the approver and observer both working at the same time - both the approver and the observer properly add the indicator to the messaging menu and clear them when activated - the approver now calls the handler to open a chat (so new conversations)

      - the observer can't call the handler yet, we need another api exposed from telepathy-glib for EnsureChannel, which they say will land this week.

Luke Yelavich (TheMuso)

Martin Pitt (pitti)

  • Alpha-3 release management/engineering, CD testing
  • wrote publish-image-set script to ease releasing
  • cleaned up NBS and out-of-date packages
  • SRU review and processing
  • apport retracer maintenance
  • debugged and fixed dpkg, which started to FTBFS everything (LP #612457)
  • fix .la files in gdk-pixbuf
  • fixed devhelp FTBFS
  • gdm bug fixing
  • gnome-power-manager bug fixing
  • removed biggest upstream changelogs from our packages, to save CD space
  • reviewed gobi-loader package for smb
  • sorted out glib maverick breakage
  • sponsored pyao
  • updated gnome-session to new upstream version

Robert Ancell (robert_ancell)

  • Maverick updates: gtk-vnc, glib, gconf, gconf-editor, libwnck, empathy, d-conf, libpeas, gbrainy, file-roller, vinagre, libsoup, gnome-menus, gnome-themes
  • libfolks MIR
  • Fix gir-repository FTBFS
  • Produced Shotwell Mallard documentation draft
  • Work on an updated package for lcms2
  • Update to gobject-introspection 0.9

Sebastien Bacher (seb128)

  • desktop updates: eog gnome-desktop indicator-session zenity gnome-utils nautilus-sendto glibmm
  • update the gir-repository list of binaries to not build those built from other sources now
  • resynced pitivi on debian
  • updates a nautilus patch backported from upstream to a fixed version
  • fixed a gdk-pixbuf upgrade conflict
  • resync pygobject on debian
  • resync clutter-gtk on debian and sent our diff the to bts
  • investigated glib breakage on i386, downgraded to the previous version as a workaround while tracking the issue, got it fixed and the new version uploaded
  • reviewed the team work items for beta
  • dropped d-conf gir build to fix build issues
  • updated dbus to the current stable version
  • sponsoring: libgwibber inkscape gtkhtml ibus gnome-control-center

Till Kamppeter (tkamppeter)

  • foomatic-filters, foomatic-db-engine: Released 4.0.5 upstream and packaged the new releases for Maverick in time before FF.
  • ghostscript: Updated the Maverick package with many patches backported from upstream. Did this step as upstream is not able to release Ghostscript 9.00 in time. So I have
    • cherry-picked the most important bug fixes, especially the upstream fixes which I did last week.
  • Answered and triaged printing-related bug reports.

IRC Log

[17:30] <seb128> hum, meeting time
[17:31] <didrocks> hey o/
[17:31] <seb128> chrisccoulson, didrocks, kenvandine, Riddell, pitti: hey
[17:32] <chrisccoulson> hi!
[17:32] <seb128> it's meeting time
[17:32] * kenvandine waves
[17:32] <pitti> seb128: cheers
[17:32] <Riddell> hi
[17:32] <rodrigo_> any idea what '/usr/share/gir-1.0/DBus-1.0.gir: Incompatible version 1.0 (supported: 1.1)' means?
[17:32] <rickspencer3> hi seb128
[17:32] <seb128> rodrigo_, it means the gir has not been rebuilt yet for gobject-introspection 0.9
[17:32] <rodrigo_> a too new gobject-introspection?
[17:32] <seb128> hey rickspencer3
[17:33] <seb128> rodrigo_, I'm in the process of doing those rebuilds
[17:33] <kenvandine> hey rickspencer3!
[17:33] <rickspencer3> hey kenvandine
[17:33] <seb128> so we had one action item
[17:33] <seb128> [ACTION] chrisccoulson to check chromium rdepends and to figure what implication promoting it would have for security and contributors
[17:33] <seb128> chrisccoulson, ^ did you do that?
[17:33] <rodrigo_> seb128, ah, so what do I do with my package (http://launchpadlibrarian.net/53433406/buildlog_ubuntu-maverick-i386.ubuntuone-client_1.3.7-0ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz), will it get rebuilt, or do I need to submit a change so that it gets rebuilt?
[17:33] <rodrigo_> oh, sorry, meeting time
[17:33] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i raised a MIR for gyp
[17:33] <chrisccoulson> which is needed to build chromium
[17:34] <seb128> rodrigo_, I will retry it later on
[17:34] <rodrigo_> seb128, ok
[17:34] <seb128> chrisccoulson, that's the only thing in universe it uses?
[17:34] <chrisccoulson> for the contributor side, people who are currently contributing will need to apply for PPU permissions once it's in main
[17:34] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - yeah, it looks like that's the only thing in universe
[17:35] <chrisccoulson> there's already a MIR for chromium opened by persia some time ago
[17:35] <chrisccoulson> but it's not complete yet
[17:35] <chrisccoulson> and the security team had quite a few objections
[17:36] <chrisccoulson> bug 522645 FYI
[17:36] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 522645 in chromium-browser (Ubuntu) "[MIR] chromium-browser (affects: 1) (heat: 31)" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/522645
[17:37] <seb128> chrisccoulson, ok, thanks
[17:37] <seb128> seems a tricky one to support
[17:37] <chrisccoulson> for the maintenance side of things, i've been told they are going to be pushing out major versions every 6 weeks
[17:37] <chrisccoulson> which is crazy
[17:37] <seb128> do you think there is a way we could make the security team happy?
[17:37] <chrisccoulson> i'm not sure. as long as we can do all the maintenance, then that will probably be ok
[17:38] <seb128> we need to get somebody on board for it
[17:38] <chrisccoulson> yeah Smile :)
[17:38] <seb128> I will check with rickspencer3 later on
[17:38] <seb128> thanks chrisccoulson
[17:38] <seb128> let's get moving
[17:39] <seb128> kenvandine, hey, partner update?
[17:39] <kenvandine> yup
[17:39] <kenvandine> UbuntuOne
[17:39] <kenvandine> single signon client will be landing in maverick this week.
[17:39] <kenvandine> i think software-center is depending on that
[17:39] <kenvandine> Include a default message in evolution, explaining how to effectively use UbuntuOne LP: #615874
[17:39] <kenvandine> Include a default note in Tomboy explaining tomboy note syncing with UbuntuOne LP: #615876
[17:39] <kenvandine> Include a default bookmark in firefox for a UbuntuOne landing page LP: #615889
[17:40] <kenvandine> chrisccoulson, i think you already did the bookmark, thx!
[17:40] <chrisccoulson> kenvandine, yeah, that's done already
[17:40] <seb128> kenvandine, is there any way those new bugs could be handled in a langpack friendly way?
[17:41] <kenvandine> hummm... does tomboy and evolution already do that?
[17:41] <Riddell> ubuntu-sso-client seems to lack any dependencies besides python, bit suspicious that
[17:41] <seb128> no
[17:41] <seb128> kenvandine, the default email is not using gettext, it ships static copies for each locale in the source
[17:41] <kenvandine> eww
[17:41] <seb128> kenvandine, so it means we would need a source upload for each translation change
[17:41] <seb128> which I'm not sure I want to ack
[17:41] <kenvandine> ok, i will talk to them about that
[17:42] <kenvandine> rodrigo_, FYI
[17:42] <kenvandine> moving onto DX
[17:42] <kenvandine> some appmenu related stuff coming this week, hopefully including the Desktop menu
[17:42] <vish> komputes: hey
[17:42] <vish> oops!
[17:43] <kenvandine> indicator-sound: mpris2 stuff, which we need to raise rhythbox from the indicator
[17:43] <rodrigo_> kenvandine, hmm, ok
[17:43] <kenvandine> so we can drop the appindicator patch from rb
[17:43] <kenvandine> also some indicator-me related ido widget tweaks
[17:43] <seb128> kenvandine, didn't the unity team said they want to keep it for the launchers?
[17:44] <kenvandine> for quicklists
[17:44] <seb128> right
[17:44] <kenvandine> davidbarth said he didn't know if we did or not
[17:44] <kenvandine> i think the plan for now is to drop it
[17:44] <kenvandine> so we don't get the extra icon in the indicator
[17:44] <kenvandine> the quicklists for rb isn't a must have, afaik
[17:44] <seb128> ok
[17:45] <kenvandine> it was more of a "we have this for free" thing
[17:45] <kenvandine> Smile :)
[17:45] <seb128> does the "raise from rb" still depends on rb changes to support mpris2?
[17:45] <kenvandine> maybe, we kind of need that
[17:45] <kenvandine> but they haven't decided on the spec yet
[17:45] <seb128> is somebody working on it?
[17:45] <kenvandine> yes
[17:45] <seb128> or do we cross finger that upstream will do it?
[17:45] <kenvandine> ronoc and some upstreams
[17:46] <seb128> ok
[17:46] <kenvandine> if we don't get mpris2 in rb, we need to wedge in some hacks somehow to raise the window
[17:46] <kenvandine> mpris2 will mean banshee and vlc though
[17:46] <kenvandine> so that is good
[17:46] <seb128> well
[17:46] <seb128> would be better if our default player was working correctly Wink ;-)
[17:46] <kenvandine> yeah!
[17:46] <kenvandine> indeed
[17:46] <jcastro> the default player will be working on UNE. Big Grin :)
[17:46] <ronoc> kenvandine, yep i know, apparently mirsal is finalizing spec now
[17:46] <kenvandine> haha
[17:47] * seb128 slaps jcastro
[17:47] <kenvandine> :-D
[17:47] <kenvandine> ronoc, thx
[17:47] <kenvandine> that is all i have
[17:47] <seb128> kenvandine, thanks
[17:47] <kenvandine> questions?
[17:47] <didrocks> kenvandine, seb128, rodrigo_ : FYI, the only way we found with dpm about the initial u1 email localization for evolution is a wiki page and call for translators… which isn't really flexible :/
[17:47] <Riddell> can you fix ubuntu-sso-client
[17:48] <rodrigo_> didrocks, right
[17:48] <seb128> what is broken about it?
[17:48] <Riddell> 17:41 < Riddell> ubuntu-sso-client seems to lack any dependencies besides python, bit suspicious that
[17:48] <kenvandine> Riddell, missing deps?
[17:48] <kenvandine> rodrigo_,
[17:48] <rodrigo_> Riddell, nessita is doing a new package today, so I'll let her know about it
[17:48] <rodrigo_> what deps are missing?
[17:48] <Riddell> thanks
[17:48] <Riddell> I don't know, I've never used it
[17:49] <seb128> thanks kenvandine
[17:49] <seb128> Riddell, kubuntu update?
[17:49] <kenvandine> rodrigo_, make sure it works on kubuntu :-D
[17:49] <rodrigo_> yeah
[17:49] <Riddell> - KDE SC 4.5.0 got delayed due to too many bugs, just released this afternoon, packages all in the archive
[17:49] <Riddell> - Alpha 3 out and in reasonable alpha shape
[17:49] <Riddell> - New ubiquity branch scares me, lots of Kubuntu work going to have to go into porting those changes over now
[17:51] <seb128> do the ubiquite changes break the kubuntu installer?
[17:51] <seb128> or it's just catching up on design changes to do?
[17:51] <Riddell> yes it looks like it's broken, although I was a bit scared to try it on my installed system, I need to set up virtualbox and look closer
[17:52] <Riddell> so I expect that'll keep me busy
[17:52] <Riddell> - KDE SC 4.5.0 got delayed due to too many bugs, just released this afternoon, packages all in the archive
[17:52] <Riddell> - Alpha 3 out and in reasonable alpha shape
[17:52] <Riddell> oh, doh
[17:52] <Riddell> also some DX updates due, amarok mpris and dbusmenu patch update to Qt
[17:52] <seb128> did you get the amarok mpris support in maverick yet?
[17:53] <Riddell> we did but then it disappeared, I probably forgot to put it into the bzr archive, I'll fix that shortly
[17:53] <seb128> ok, thanks
[17:53] <seb128> that will make ronoc happy Wink ;-)
[17:54] <seb128> questions for Riddell?
[17:54] <ronoc> Riddell, excellent thx
[17:55] <seb128> thanks Riddell
[17:55] <seb128> didrocks, hey
[17:55] <ronoc> Riddell, I think agateau might have some time next week to see if he can upgrade your mpris support to work with mpris2
[17:55] <seb128> didrocks, news in the UNE world? Wink ;-)
[17:55] <didrocks> of course Smile :-)
[17:55] <didrocks> New unity release this week, not a lot of new features, but more on transitions:
[17:56] <didrocks> notably, we got new mutter and clutter, with added love of battery power saving and rendering optimization.
[17:56] <didrocks> This release is brought to you with the new zeitgeist, making extensions possible. Note than now the FTS (Full Text Search) is a separate package (zeitgeist-fts-extension) and no more a patch but a new package.
[17:57] <didrocks> For that package, the MIR is done (bug #614327), and I just wait for the package to be promoted to main to make both unity places depend on it. Until then, the search is semi-broken in unity ATM.
[17:57] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 614327 in zeitgeist-extensions (Ubuntu) "[MIR] zeitgeist-extensions (affects: 1) (heat: 1632)" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/614327
[17:57] <seb128> asac, ^ can we get that mir reviewed?
[17:58] <didrocks> (should be straightforward, it's a small python script)
[17:58] <asac> hmm. zeitgeist i remember
[17:58] <asac> didnt we approve that already?
[17:58] <asac> oh extension
[17:58] <didrocks> asac: yeah, this was a distro-patch on zeitgeist first, and the new version can get proper extension support
[17:58] <didrocks> asac: so, you likely already had a look at that code, it's just now that it's separate Smile :)
[17:59] <seb128> questions for didrocks?
[17:59] <seb128> didrocks, btw you will probably need a rebuild in the unity stack for the gobject introspection update tomorrow
[18:00] <seb128> it wants to remove it locally when I remove libgirepository1.0-0
[18:00] <didrocks> seb128: can we rather want on thursday's update?
[18:00] <seb128> didrocks, as you want, I'm just saying that those changes have been uploaded
[18:00] <didrocks> wait*
[18:00] <seb128> it should just be a rebuild
[18:00] <seb128> didrocks, I will see if I can just do it
[18:01] <didrocks> well, I'll have a look on what is dep on it (most of it IIRC), and see if I can get some time for that
[18:01] <didrocks> seb128: should be easy, I'll try to keep tomorrow morning for that
[18:02] <seb128> didrocks, thanks
[18:02] <seb128> no question about UNE?
[18:02] <didrocks> yw Smile :)
[18:02] <seb128> so let's move on
[18:02] <seb128> no software-center update this week due to holidays
[18:03] <seb128> so release status
[18:03] <seb128> we got past alpha3 now
[18:03] <seb128> everybody got his workitems on http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html in shape right?
[18:03] <seb128> the feature freeze is in 2 days
[18:03] <seb128> if you have things which are late let me know
[18:04] <seb128> it's time to get changes in
[18:05] <seb128> is anybody late on features?
[18:05] <seb128> didrocks, ideally banshee by default should land this week in UNE
[18:05] <seb128> didrocks, not sure if you plan to get oneconf in by default?
[18:05] <didrocks> yeah, so two WI closed, just before FF Smile :)
[18:06] <didrocks> seb128: yeah, but that can wait after FF, right?
[18:06] <seb128> kenvandine, I think the empathy change should land this week as well
[18:06] * kenvandine whistles innocently
[18:06] <seb128> lol
[18:06] <kenvandine> yeah, i really hope so Smile :)
[18:06] <didrocks> seb128: I would prefer having a working desktopcouch to get people testing it. I can only say "work for me ©" Smile :)
[18:06] <seb128> didrocks, well, seems those are feature to me
[18:06] <seb128> that's a valid point
[18:06] <seb128> ok, let's say it's blocked on u1
[18:07] <didrocks> seb128: we can already get it into main, I can write the MIR tomorrow
[18:07] <seb128> didrocks, would be nice, thanks
[18:07] <didrocks> ok, will do that, thanks Smile :)
[18:07] <seb128> ok, that's about it from me I think
[18:07] <seb128> does anybody has any extra item?
[18:07] <seb128> questions?
[18:08] <chrisccoulson> is everyone getting to UDS on the sunday, or do we get accomodation if we arrive on saturday?
[18:08] <chrisccoulson> actually
[18:08] <chrisccoulson> i could check the wiki Wink ;)
[18:08] <seb128> chrisccoulson, just write the days you are there
[18:08] <pitti> chrisccoulson: arriving on Saturday is quite common
[18:08] <chrisccoulson> seb128 - thanks
[18:08] <seb128> chrisccoulson, you will get accomodation on saturday
[18:08] <pitti> chrisccoulson: just say that you arrive on Sat
[18:08] <chrisccoulson> pitti - yeah, the saturday flights for me are significantly cheaper Wink ;)
[18:09] <seb128> it's often less expensive to get flights over a weekend and people like to get over jetlag
[18:09] <pitti> chrisccoulson: same here; silly "saturday night" rule
[18:09] <pitti> btw, does anyone here go to Plumber's the week afterwards?
[18:09] <pitti> I will
[18:09] <seb128> I don't
[18:09] <seb128> but I need to check if there is a dxsprint before UDS
[18:09] <seb128> they were speaking about doing it in London around release time rather
[18:09] <pitti> well, I guess I'm the u{dev,disks,power} etc. guy here
[18:10] <didrocks> pitti: yeah, I think you are the only one who should get there here Smile :)
[18:10] <pitti> Keybuk will as well
[18:11] <seb128> oh, while I think about it
[18:11] <seb128> ttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/DesktopTestingProgram
[18:11] <seb128> ups
[18:11] <seb128> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/DesktopTestingProgram
[18:11] <seb128> ^ new desktop testing program, they have a team and a mailing list
[18:11] <seb128> if some of you feel like joining to help replying to the issues tester find
[18:11] <didrocks> I had already a look at all the testcases, sounds great Smile :)
[18:11] <seb128> that should not be a lot of work
[18:12] <seb128> but just when there is a testing round replying to questions on whether things are known issue
[18:12] <seb128> or where to report them etc
[18:13] <seb128> ok
[18:13] <seb128> I think that's it for this week
[18:13] <seb128> thanks everybody
[18:13] <seb128> didrocks, indeed Wink ;-)
[18:13] <didrocks> thanks everybody Smile :)
[18:14] <chrisccoulson> good timing, my laptop has just decided to stop working Wink ;)
[18:14] <seb128> let's go back to fixing introspection


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DesktopTeam/Meeting/2010-08-10 (last edited 2010-08-11 00:02:24 by robert-ancell)