Ubuntu Wiki

This is the chat for the first BOF on ForumIntegration it took place on Thursday June 22th from 16:00 on.

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[03:38:18 PM] <ubuntu_demon> hi ryan
[03:40:01 PM] <ubuntu_demon> (it was a wine repo)
[03:40:41 PM] <RyanTroy> hello
[03:41:02 PM] <ubuntu_demon> the BOF about the forums starts in about 20 minutes
[03:41:08 PM] <jsgotangco> bonjour
[03:42:08 PM] <RyanTroy> ok i'll just hang out until then.. :) 
[03:44:30 PM] <ubuntu_demon> ok :)
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[03:47:10 PM] <ubuntu_demon> hi tseliot
[03:47:30 PM] <tseliot> hi
[03:47:39 PM] <ubuntu_demon> great that you could make it
[03:48:05 PM] <tseliot> well, I'm studying but, you know...
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[03:58:04 PM] <ubuntu_demon> mako is going this forumintegration BOF
[03:58:09 PM] <ubuntu_demon> +attend
[03:58:31 PM] <ubuntu_demon> mako is going to attend this forumintegration BOF 
[03:58:46 PM] <RyanTroy> ok going to leave this one and wait for the forums one
[03:58:55 PM] <ubuntu_demon> no
[03:59:00 PM] <ubuntu_demon> you should wait here
[03:59:00 PM] <RyanTroy> ok
[03:59:07 PM] andreas has left
[03:59:14 PM] <tseliot> let's wait then
[03:59:33 PM] <ubuntu_demon> it's going to be at gobby 9001 (unless it crashes or something strange occurs)
[03:59:45 PM] andreas has joined
[04:00:01 PM] <ubuntu_demon> we are waiting for people such as Henrik and Mako
[04:00:36 PM] <RyanTroy> Ok
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[04:05:30 PM] ubuntu_demon has created a new document: ForumsIntegration
[04:05:41 PM] <jdub> hey hey
[04:09:18 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Mako will be right here 
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[04:10:04 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Ryan and tseliot are you also on teamspeak ?
[04:10:30 PM] <tseliot> What do you mean?
[04:10:44 PM] <ubuntu_demon> If you want we can run a teamspeak session. 
[04:10:59 PM] <ubuntu_demon> (I can't run teamspeak because the laptop isnt fast enough)
[04:11:08 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Mark and Mako are here
[04:11:23 PM] <RyanTroy> I am at work atm so team speak is out for me
[04:11:26 PM] <ubuntu_demon> ok
[04:11:55 PM] <tseliot> And I don't know how it works...
[04:12:13 PM] <ubuntu_demon> mark is talking
[04:12:50 PM] <RyanTroy> i could always use teamspeak to listen
[04:12:54 PM] <ubuntu_demon> mark wants to create some structures
[04:13:36 PM] jsgotangco has joined
[04:13:39 PM] <RyanTroy> yes, I am well aware of that issue.
[04:13:51 PM] <jsgotangco> bonjour
[04:15:05 PM] <RyanTroy> has Mark even read our current structure and guidelines?
[04:15:27 PM] <ubuntu_demon> I'll ask
[04:15:30 PM] <RyanTroy> ok thanks
[04:15:48 PM] <ubuntu_demon> mako is talking about the resolution center right now
[04:15:51 PM] <RyanTroy> ok
[04:17:31 PM] <tseliot> I have installed teamspeak. What can I do to listen?
[04:17:34 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Mark and Mako are going to gobby
[04:18:07 PM] <RyanTroy> ok
[04:18:08 PM] <jdub> tseliot: connect to teamspeak.uds.canonical.com
[04:18:14 PM] mako has joined
[04:18:17 PM] <jsgotangco> ubuntu_demon: sorry i couldn't stay downstairs im in a bof upstairs for edubuntu but im here in gobby =)
[04:18:25 PM] <mako> hey all
[04:18:49 PM] ubuntu_demon has created a new document: ForumPolicy.rtf
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[04:19:40 PM] <ubuntu_demon> mako : the guidelines doesnt say anything about inter-moderator problems
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[04:19:58 PM] <sabdfl> hi folks
[04:20:01 PM] <tseliot> jdub I did that. What now?
[04:20:57 PM] <jsgotangco> hey dude
[04:21:31 PM] <mako> most of the issues in the past that have made it to the CC
[04:21:34 PM] <RyanTroy> is there a teamspeak setup for this discussion ?
[04:21:44 PM] <mako> there isn't at the moment, although we can meet up and talk later
[04:21:53 PM] <sdier> only one person right now has a headset on from what i can see
[04:21:53 PM] <RyanTroy> ok
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[04:23:00 PM] <mako> several of the issues that have made at the CC in the pat have been inter-moderator issues
[04:23:02 PM] <ubuntu_demon> mark: the only issue that I have is there is no link to the council regarding appointment of admins
[04:23:34 PM] <mako> the gudelines seem to dictate a really good system for resolving  problems between form people and moderators
[04:23:44 PM] <RyanTroy> mako, correct most of the issue have made it to the CC. I would like to mention that we use the resolution center as a interm between the forums and the CC, we clearly state on the page in which the resolution center resides that if the issue is not resolved the user can bring it to the CC #5 on there to be exact.
[04:24:12 PM] <mako> /me nods
[04:24:31 PM] <mako> i read through a half dozen or so threads in the res center yesterday
[04:24:34 PM] <RyanTroy> As far as inter-staff issues, we are all pretty close knit. if there is an issue we can discuss. I can think only 1 issue in the past where there was an issue between inter-staff.
[04:24:37 PM] <mako> for the most parrt, i think it's a really nice step
[04:25:14 PM] <mako> there have been other issues in the past where i've been emailed by staff members who felt afraid to speak up
[04:25:16 PM] <RyanTroy> any staff member who is not happy with something can post in the resolution center and if need be bring it the cc, thats the way its setup
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[04:25:22 PM] <mako> now, they may have been completely wrong
[04:25:28 PM] <mako> clearly, nothing happened
[04:25:37 PM] <mako> since that's not really how problems are solved here or anywhere else
[04:25:47 PM] <mako> and i don't even remembber the issues off the top of my head
[04:25:48 PM] <ubuntu_demon> mark : told us that he wants to give admins the power to make users ubuntu members
[04:25:53 PM] <ubuntu_demon> - :
[04:26:09 PM] <jsgotangco> hmm
[04:26:12 PM] <mako> but i understand that it's a closely knit group
[04:26:21 PM] <mako> and those issues may be completely resolved
[04:26:40 PM] <RyanTroy> mako: I believe in the past when the three people who complained were causing issues with other staff members. As far as I know the issues are past us over a year ago now?
[04:28:09 PM] <mako> sure, that sounds right
[04:28:31 PM] <mako> but seems like it's probably then the perfect time to set a set of groundrules and a resolution procedure, right?
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[04:29:10 PM] <RyanTroy> We have a resolution procedure in place now. I do not see a need to break this.
[04:29:18 PM] <RyanTroy> It works well
[04:29:23 PM] <mako> i understand that
[04:29:33 PM] <mako> but it doesn't seem to involve inter-staff issues
[04:29:46 PM] <mako> and many of the threads i looked at there ended up being locked by an admin
[04:29:56 PM] <mako> who felt it was no longer progressing effectively
[04:30:02 PM] <RyanTroy> Liek I said, staff can use the resolution center if they are not happy they can take it up with the CC
[04:30:40 PM] <RyanTroy> There comes a point when you cannot argue any more with a person. If they are not happy with the outcome they are more then welcome to goto the CC
[04:30:46 PM] <RyanTroy> as stated on that page
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[04:32:38 PM] <RyanTroy> One of my issues with this is non of the CC members use the forums. I dont see how they can manage a governance or make decisions when they are not involved.
[04:33:06 PM] <RyanTroy> Its a mis conception to think the forums are like IRC or a Mailing List
[04:34:35 PM] <jsgotangco> i think that can be easily fixed (CC members using forums)
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[04:34:57 PM] <RyanTroy> jsgotangco: two and half years later? We've been down this road before.
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[04:35:28 PM] <jsgotangco> we have this BOF now that's a good sign
[04:36:05 PM] <sabdfl> ryantroy: please feel free to quote from my email on this
[04:36:17 PM] <sabdfl> the CC cannot participate actively in every part of Ubuntu
[04:36:23 PM] <sabdfl> we don't use Edubuntu on our desktop PC's
[04:36:27 PM] <mako> or kubuntu
[04:36:33 PM] <sabdfl> but edubuntu is still part of the ubuntu project, and subject to the cc
[04:36:33 PM] <mako> i don't even use gnome ;)
[04:36:44 PM] <sabdfl> we trust the forums admins to run the forums
[04:36:46 PM] <sabdfl> HOWEVER
[04:37:04 PM] <sabdfl> we have to have a line of legitimate authority from the CC to forums users
[04:37:17 PM] <RyanTroy> and I HOWEVER do not trust the CC to manage the forums
[04:37:27 PM] <sabdfl> we're not asking to manage the forums
[04:37:32 PM] <sabdfl> not in the slightest
[04:37:48 PM] <Sarah> You're asking for the CC to step in if there's a problem in the forums?
[04:37:52 PM] <RyanTroy> So our resolution center is no legitimate?
[04:37:54 PM] <RyanTroy> not*
[04:38:14 PM] <mako> nobody is saying that
[04:38:15 PM] <sabdfl> sarah: it's already the case that the resolution center escalates issues to the CC
[04:38:22 PM] <jdub> it's an awesome conflict resolution point for your team, but like all teams, it can bubble up to the CC if required
[04:38:31 PM] <sabdfl> there is a problem in the guidelines where it suggests that the CC will refer those issues straight back to the forums
[04:38:37 PM] <Sarah> sabdfl:  right, sorry
[04:38:41 PM] <sabdfl> that would not make the CC a good appeal process :-)
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[04:38:53 PM] <sabdfl> the problem is more in the selection of the admins
[04:38:56 PM] <jdub> conflict resolution ping pong ;-)
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[04:39:07 PM] <sabdfl> sarah, while you were away:
[04:39:12 PM] <sabdfl> 
[04:39:12 PM] <sabdfl> [15:39:50] <sabdfl> the problem is more in the selection of the admins
[04:39:12 PM] <sabdfl> [15:39:53] <jdub> conflict resolution ping pong ;-)
[04:39:21 PM] <sabdfl> so
[04:39:33 PM] <sabdfl> we are discussing the appointment of the admins
[04:39:39 PM] <sabdfl> they carry the most responsibility in the forums
[04:39:47 PM] <RyanTroy> I think our selection process works well. 
[04:39:50 PM] <sabdfl> they need to be respected in the forums
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[04:40:00 PM] <sabdfl> ryantroy: what is the selection process?
[04:40:01 PM] <Sarah Hobbs> (thanks sabdfl.  even though i'm probably the only sarah, thought it was good to properly identify)
[04:41:34 PM] <jdub> (sabdfl is asking about how admins are selected atm)
[04:41:46 PM] <jdub> (about how the CC enfranchises other teams, such as the art team, etc)
[04:41:53 PM] <jdub> (and the doc team)
[04:42:20 PM] <sabdfl> docteam, art team, accessibility team, server team, developer team... all of these are clearly accountable to the CC
[04:42:25 PM] <RyanTroy> sabdfl: A selection of a moderator, we ask our current moderators or will ping people in the community who offer great support. As far as selecting admin's they are choosen from current moderators who show oustanding quality. We have 3 admin positions open at any time and 20 moderator positions.
[04:42:31 PM] <sabdfl> but the CC does not interfere in the way they RUN their operations
[04:42:42 PM] <sabdfl> chosen BY WHOM
[04:43:08 PM] <Sarah Hobbs> chosen by the other moderators, presumably
[04:43:14 PM] <RyanTroy> moderators can be choosen by any moderstator or administrator.. administrators are choosen by the administrators
[04:43:45 PM] <sabdfl> i believe the CC should select the admins based on input from the admins and moderators
[04:43:53 PM] <RyanTroy> I disagree
[04:43:57 PM] <jdub> mako is talking about the IRC operator team
[04:44:09 PM] <jdub> and how they recommend new operators to the CC
[04:44:14 PM] <andreas> rather approve than select
[04:44:24 PM] <jdub> who give them a stamp of approval 
[04:44:29 PM] <jdub> so the CC are ultimately accountable
[04:44:36 PM] <RyanTroy> I will never agree to that
[04:44:49 PM] <jsgotangco> why?
[04:44:51 PM] <jdub> it's a light process, with everyone involved and communicating
[04:45:04 PM] <jsgotangco> all teams do that except forums
[04:45:05 PM] <sabdfl> why is that, ryan?
[04:45:49 PM] <jdub> table is talking about how the intent is not to "take away control from ryan and the admins"
[04:46:00 PM] <mako> nobody recommended by the currrent IRC operators as a new operator has ever been rejected
[04:46:02 PM] <RyanTroy> We are a tight knit, when you bring in outside people based on a group of users votes it leads to nothing but trouble. It will just bring back the same issue as to what happened with Mr. Zajac a year ago.
[04:46:13 PM] <mako> or even question
[04:46:16 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Mark makes some good points right here at the table.
[04:46:25 PM] <jdub> ryan: i think the summary here is that we are all part of ubuntu :-)
[04:46:39 PM] <sabdfl> ryan: we would not appoint arbitrary people who are not forums people into the admins group
[04:46:49 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Jane : we aren't talking about bringing outside people in
[04:46:53 PM] <jsgotangco> ryan: other teams are not tight knit ten?
[04:46:58 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Jane : thinks there's miscommunication
[04:47:00 PM] <sabdfl> here's a proposal about how we could do it
[04:47:12 PM] <Sarah Hobbs> sabdfl:  isnt that kind of pointless, because the admins and mods from the forums will be telling the CC how great the proposed moderator is, and the CC will vote based on what the mods/admins say, rather than voting themselves?  Isnt that just introducing another piece of beurocracy?
[04:47:12 PM] <sabdfl>  when an admin position comes up, we ask for applications
[04:47:19 PM] <jdub> and these ideas are suggested in the spirit of ubuntu, working together, and building upon our relationships
[04:47:32 PM] <RyanTroy> Sarah: agreed
[04:47:55 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Mark : suggests a fixed number of  admins for example 7
[04:48:02 PM] <ubuntu_demon> - :
[04:48:02 PM] <RyanTroy> We dont need 7
[04:48:03 PM] <sabdfl> based on the applications, the CC would review the candidates, ask for moderator input, and select who we think is the best person
[04:48:09 PM] <ubuntu_demon> or 5
[04:48:11 PM] <Sarah Hobbs> And isnt that directly why things like the kubuntu/edubuntu community council were created - so that the CC could deal with other things instead?  that was my understanding, at least
[04:48:13 PM] <sabdfl> it would not be an election of moderators
[04:48:23 PM] <sabdfl> but their opinions and preferences would of course count
[04:48:29 PM] <ubuntu_demon> They want to select the admins from the mods.
[04:48:48 PM] <ubuntu_demon> I think
[04:48:48 PM] <jdub> sarah: but the kubuntu and edubuntu councils are precisely this - tight, self-administering teams that work with the CC
[04:49:06 PM] <jdub> sarah: so the councils are quite like the forum admins in this case
[04:49:11 PM] <Sarah Hobbs> ah, true
[04:49:33 PM] <RyanTroy> the CC has never done anything positive for me.. I do not see how having them elect an administrator will benefit the forums in any way. When the group of administrators can just as easy select someone
[04:49:51 PM] <sabdfl> what gives the admins their legitimacy?
[04:50:03 PM] <sabdfl> as a representative council of ubuntu?
[04:50:33 PM] <RyanTroy> if a position opened up the group of admins would discuss it.. thats the legitimacy of it
[04:50:47 PM] <ubuntu_demon> I think they want the admins and mods to suggest admins and then aprove / dissaprove. AFAIK
[04:50:53 PM] <sabdfl> ryan, that's a club, not a legitimate council
[04:51:00 PM] <mako> discuss, make a recommendation, almost certainly have it approved
[04:51:01 PM] <SorenHansen> That doesn't give any legitimacy in relation to Ubuntu. Only in relation to itself.
[04:51:04 PM] <sabdfl> please don't take my words as saying that i think it's a bad group
[04:51:05 PM] <sabdfl> far from it
[04:51:17 PM] <RyanTroy> I disagree with it..
[04:51:47 PM] <RyanTroy> I could call the CC a club as well
[04:52:11 PM] <RyanTroy> I coulc all any group of people a club.. that doesnt take away from the legitimacy of the group
[04:52:14 PM] <RyanTroy> could*
[04:52:16 PM] <jsgotangco> please don't troll
[04:52:24 PM] <jdub> ryan: the CC members are nominated by mark and elected by all ubuntu members
[04:52:52 PM] <RyanTroy> And administrators are selected by our admin group.. no different then what you just said
[04:52:54 PM] <Sarah Hobbs> Of course, if the admins were being members themselves, then they would have a choice in these elections too.
[04:53:15 PM] <jdub> oh, and they totally should be :-)
[04:53:29 PM] <jdub> ryan: but not as part of the ubuntu community or structure, unfortunately
[04:53:45 PM] <RyanTroy> welll then maybe we should break off
[04:53:54 PM] <sabdfl> it would be highly unlikely that the CC would appoint an admin who was not popular with the moderators
[04:55:32 PM] <sabdfl> but the appointment should come from the CC, not from a self-selecting group
[04:56:14 PM] <sabdfl> we are discussing here how we handle membership in kubuntu, edubuntu etc
[04:56:24 PM] <RyanTroy> So is this more a power struggle then anything? We clearly disagree on this.
[04:56:34 PM] <jdub> it's really not about power
[04:56:39 PM] <jdub> it's about collaboration
[04:56:40 PM] <sabdfl> no, it's not a power struggle
[04:56:51 PM] <sabdfl> we have every confidence in ryan and the current admins
[04:56:53 PM] <jdub> working together within the larger community
[04:56:53 PM] <RyanTroy> I see no reason why a group of people who are administrators cannot elect
[04:57:05 PM] <sabdfl> we do not have confidence in the appointment process
[04:57:13 PM] <sabdfl> ryan, this is a common problem in governance
[04:57:15 PM] <RyanTroy> And i do not have confidence you teh CC
[04:57:24 PM] <RyanTroy> so we are deadlocked here
[04:58:00 PM] <RyanTroy> If the adminsitrators are picking the moderators, then why not pick the administrators?
[04:58:08 PM] <sabdfl> ryan, could you hop on irc quickly?
[04:58:10 PM] <RyanTroy> It seems pointless to involce the CC
[04:58:15 PM] <RyanTroy> involve*
[04:58:47 PM] <sabdfl> would you say that the other structures in ubuntu work well, or badly?
[04:58:48 PM] <mako> it helps build a larger cohesive community
[04:59:01 PM] <jdub> how is your confidence lacking in the CC? can we help to rebuild that?
[04:59:13 PM] <jsgotangco> honestly this spec has promise but now it seems unlikely...
[04:59:24 PM] <RyanTroy> jdub: the CC has never once ruled in myfavor on any issue
[04:59:36 PM] <jsgotangco> so its all about you?
[04:59:53 PM] <sabdfl> ryantroy: we have consistently backed and supported your leadership of the forums
[04:59:57 PM] <mako> now, the CC is a lightweight beurcoracy
[05:00:35 PM] <RyanTroy> jsgotangco: I am not saying that, by saying my I am saying the forums in a whole our group of people. Not very well phrased
[05:01:06 PM] <jsgotangco> ok
[05:01:07 PM] <mako> but we've we've decided that a lightweight government structure goes a long way to creating a feeling of legimacy and fairness
[05:01:12 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Ryan it's really bad you are not here. I have added some great ideas by mdz and jdub in the spec.
[05:01:37 PM] <RyanTroy> I wish i was there too.. chatting over irc is not the best mode of discussion
[05:01:51 PM] <jdub> ryan: meritocratically, you're absolutely respected as driving the forums (technically and socially)
[05:02:03 PM] <mako> even if it's never invoked, there's an idea that things seem more fair
[05:02:13 PM] <mako> because there's an overarching structure that people feel is fair
[05:02:18 PM] <RyanTroy> Let me ask this, why are you not confident in the selection of administrators, but you are ok with the administrators selecting moderators?
[05:02:22 PM] <mako> and ultimately, it builds up to a stronger community
[05:02:28 PM] <jdub> ryan: so this is not about assuming power, it's about helping you guys participate in the greater community
[05:02:31 PM] <mako> it's not that we're not confident in the selections of admins
[05:02:36 PM] <jdub> ryan: yeah, for sure
[05:02:49 PM] <sabdfl> there's a normal "chain of command" there
[05:03:03 PM] <mako> it's not that we don't trust other teams and team leaders
[05:03:04 PM] <mako> we do
[05:03:08 PM] <jdub> ryan: it's not lack of confidence, it's participation with the CC (who is ultimatelyu accountable for and to the community)
[05:03:09 PM] <sabdfl> ryan, i wish you were here, because the conversation around the table is perfectly reasonable
[05:03:13 PM] <mako> and that's why the CC almost NEVER says no to anything
[05:03:16 PM] <sabdfl> this is not a personal attack, or power struggle
[05:03:22 PM] <RyanTroy> mako: Well mark said you were not confident. I am just expanding on this
[05:03:33 PM] <sabdfl> its an attempt to make sure that WE can reasonably be held accountable for the forums
[05:03:50 PM] <sabdfl> because if WE have a say in the leadership of them, then it is also OUR responsibility that they work well
[05:04:08 PM] <jdub> ryan: would you like to have a phone call about this with us tomorrow?
[05:04:08 PM] <sabdfl> that does not mean we have any intention of getting involved in the detailed administration of them
[05:04:14 PM] <RyanTroy> are they not working well now? has it not worked well in the past two and half years?
[05:04:37 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Ryan can you be at the phone tomorrow at the next BOF about this ?
[05:04:45 PM] <sabdfl> there have been issues, and to be honest I am uncomfortable with a self selected group that calls itself the Ubuntu Forums Admins
[05:04:51 PM] <RyanTroy> What issues?
[05:05:03 PM] <RyanTroy> Please expand on this
[05:05:07 PM] <sabdfl> the issues that prompted this discussion the first two or three times we had it
[05:05:51 PM] <RyanTroy> I see.
[05:06:04 PM] <RyanTroy> ubuntu_demon what time will it be?
[05:06:56 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Ryan there are some good ideas here. I like some of them very much. Speaking in person is easier. Mark is really convincing.
[05:07:05 PM] <RyanTroy> Of course :)
[05:07:21 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Ryan we don't have a time yet. It will probably pop up in the schedule tomorrow morning.
[05:07:44 PM] <RyanTroy> I need some good evidence as to why there is no confidence and why you are uncomfortable with our group of admins.
[05:08:01 PM] <jdub> ryan: no dude, it's not about lack of confidence
[05:08:25 PM] <jdub> ryan: it's about being together in this, and also granting your team more trust, but being a part of the community process and structure
[05:08:28 PM] <sabdfl> we are not uncomfortable with the integrity, or the skill, or the commitment of the admin team
[05:08:39 PM] jsgotangco has left
[05:08:42 PM] <sabdfl> the team has done brilliantly
[05:08:44 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Ryan mark just said that we might very well end up with the exact same group of moderators/admins
[05:08:46 PM] <sabdfl> and you have done brilliantly
[05:08:54 PM] sdier has left
[05:09:22 PM] <jdub> at the moment, it's a bit of a wild west for us - we're not well enough connected to your team to have established that trust
[05:09:24 PM] <sabdfl> however, when there is a major dispute *about the admins*
[05:09:33 PM] <sabdfl> the CC is not really in a position to be accountable
[05:09:39 PM] <sabdfl> because we did not appoint them
[05:09:52 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Ryan I think they want to relief you of some stress in cases about inter-forum staff disputes.
[05:10:01 PM] <sabdfl> it seems you are concerned that we are trying to take over your authority
[05:10:02 PM] <sabdfl> not at all
[05:10:10 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Ryan after this session let's go to irc together
[05:10:19 PM] <RyanTroy> So what you are proposing, is administrators will select moderators. But the CC will select administrators from the moderators?
[05:10:19 PM] <sabdfl> we want to give that authority legitimacy - beyond simply the undisputed fact that you were there first
[05:10:28 PM] <jdub> but participating in the community structure, we're really inviting you to build much greater trust with us, because the CC has directly given it
[05:10:28 PM] <sabdfl> being there first is not enough for a position this big
[05:10:32 PM] <sabdfl> ask ian murdock :-)
[05:10:40 PM] <sabdfl> founder's syndrome is a real issue
[05:11:12 PM] <jdub> ryan: the CC, admins and forum community can work together to enfranchise new admins
[05:11:13 PM] <sabdfl> if the CC is seen to be absolutely behind each appointment of the forums admins, then it is also seen to be accountable for their actions
[05:11:22 PM] <jdub> but those admins are *the* team
[05:11:30 PM] <RyanTroy> Ok
[05:11:44 PM] <RyanTroy> there is a difference between moderators and administrators
[05:11:49 PM] <jdub> and by giving that trust to the admins, the CC can be confident (and accountable) for that team doing their work
[05:12:02 PM] <jdub> including selection of moderators
[05:12:07 PM] <sabdfl> i have no desire to run the forums - i think you do a much better job than anyone else i know
[05:12:21 PM] <sabdfl> however, i feel that the CC needs to be ultimately responsible for having the very best team of admins in place
[05:12:25 PM] <jdub> (just like the edubuntu council has the trust of the CC to involve new members)
[05:12:37 PM] <sabdfl> that's true of docs, of art, of the mailing lists, of the irc channels... of every aspect of the project
[05:12:41 PM] <RyanTroy> admins or moderators or both will be electec by the C?
[05:12:46 PM] <RyanTroy> CC*
[05:12:47 PM] <jdub> admins
[05:12:47 PM] <sabdfl> admins only
[05:12:55 PM] <jdub> who are the team that run the show
[05:13:04 PM] <RyanTroy> from the group of moderators that the administrators have choosen?
[05:13:26 PM] <sabdfl> mostly :-)
[05:13:32 PM] <RyanTroy> mostly isnt good enough
[05:13:35 PM] <RyanTroy> exclusivly
[05:13:53 PM] <sabdfl> ryan, imagine in two or three years you have retired as leader of the forums
[05:13:56 PM] <Sarah Hobbs> ryan: presumably from the most capabale people, who are likely to be the administrators who have been demonstrating that they're very good at what they do
[05:13:57 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Ryan they are very convincing in person. I like most of their suggestions. You and I let's go to irc after this.  
[05:14:13 PM] <RyanTroy> ubuntu_demon ok
[05:14:38 PM] <sabdfl> and the new guy starts to make bad decisions
[05:14:43 PM] <sabdfl> and pick bad moderators
[05:14:48 PM] <sabdfl> and a group of users wants to change things
[05:14:48 PM] <RyanTroy> The issue is this.. "mostly" allows people with different agendas to poision a team.. Exactly what happened before
[05:15:01 PM] <sabdfl> the CC would need to look at the whole picture
[05:15:09 PM] <sabdfl> and make sure that it was effective
[05:15:16 PM] <sabdfl> now, right now i have no indications that is the case
[05:15:36 PM] <sabdfl> but i'm not comfortable with a self-selecting admins team
[05:15:49 PM] <jdub> yes, sabdfl is talking about sustainable governance
[05:15:54 PM] <sabdfl> just as i would not be comfortable with a self-selecting tech board, or legal team, or art team
[05:16:20 PM] <jdub> which is very hard to get right, but it is something we've done extremely well in ubuntu, drawing on experiences from many free software projects
[05:16:20 PM] <sabdfl> ryantroy: yes, the CC could "poison" a team given this authority
[05:16:27 PM] <ubuntu_demon> Mark you have the indication that the forums are running effective because there are not a lot of people going to the Community Council with problems and most of our users are very positive about the forums. But I like your CC idea.
[05:16:28 PM] <sabdfl> however, it's not in the slightest in our interest to do that
[05:16:44 PM] <RyanTroy> hmm
[05:17:05 PM] <sabdfl> it's in our interests to have the best, most dedicated and most competent people responsible for every part of ubuntu
[05:17:07 PM] <sabdfl> including the forums
[05:17:14 PM] <sabdfl> right now i think we are in good shape
[05:17:18 PM] <RyanTroy> I would be more open to the idea of the CC electing administators if it was exclusivly from moderators.
[05:17:27 PM] <jdub> ryan: you run the best distro forums on the planet - why would the CC want to screw that up? this is about building stronger support for the forums within the ubuntu community structure
[05:17:57 PM] <sabdfl> ryan, it can't be that way, because if the admins were doing a bad job we would not have good mods to fix it with
[05:18:32 PM] <RyanTroy> understood..
[05:18:45 PM] ubuntu_demon has created a new document: ForumsIntegrationChat
[05:18:47 PM] <jdub> certainly the admins, moderators and wider forums community would be very heavily weighted by the CC
[05:18:58 PM] <RyanTroy> Let me ask this, could previous moderators be elected even if they were not currently on staff
[05:19:14 PM] <sabdfl> we've never appointed an artist to the tech board, or a developer with no art credentials to an art team
[05:19:35 PM] <sabdfl> anybody could be appointed if the CC felt they were the best candidate
[05:19:40 PM] <RyanTroy> hmm
[05:19:46 PM] <jdub> i think like most things, the CC works carefully to decide tings on a case-by-case basis
[05:19:46 PM] <RyanTroy> Thats an issue for me
[05:19:51 PM] <sabdfl> of course, the CC is going to consider the time and experience and history of their involvement in the forums
[05:19:53 PM] ubuntu_demon has created a new document: ForumPolicy.rtf
[05:20:01 PM] <sabdfl> i have to step away
[05:20:03 PM] <jdub> taking the input of the community into account
[05:20:06 PM] <sabdfl> sorry you could not be here, ryan
[05:20:10 PM] <RyanTroy> I am too
[05:20:23 PM] <sabdfl> i would like to have 5 forums representatives at every developer summit from now on
[05:20:36 PM] <sabdfl> rotating people, mostly admins and moderators but not necessarily exclusively
[05:20:48 PM] <sabdfl> people who will engage in the discussions and take those back to the forums
[05:20:49 PM] <RyanTroy> If i can know in advance when the next one is more then 3 weeks I will be able to attend
[05:21:12 PM] <sabdfl> and also bring forums issues up for discussion at the dev summits
[05:21:19 PM] <sabdfl> i have to go now, thanks all
[05:21:28 PM] sabdfl has left
[05:21:38 PM] <jdub> ryan: want to do this conference call tomorrow?
[05:22:04 PM] mako has left
[05:22:24 PM] <RyanTroy> i suppose
[05:22:36 PM] <jdub> what kind of time would be good for you?
[05:22:37 PM] <RyanTroy> I have more concerns
[05:22:40 PM] <jdub> relative to now
[05:22:42 PM] <jdub> 17:23
[05:22:53 PM] <RyanTroy> 15:23
[05:22:56 PM] <RyanTroy> is good
[05:23:01 PM] <RyanTroy> 15:00
[05:23:05 PM] <RyanTroy> that time frame
[05:23:05 PM] <jdub> so perhaps aim for 15:00 your time?
[05:23:06 PM] <jdub> okay
[05:23:07 PM] <jdub> cool
[05:23:14 PM] chuck has left
[05:23:15 PM] <jdub> i will make sure it's on our agenda for tomorrow
[05:23:23 PM] <jdub> can you email me your phone number and stuff?
[05:23:29 PM] <jdub> jeff.waugh@ubuntu.com
[05:23:35 PM] <RyanTroy> I am not opposed to making changes, but I need some assurences this cannot be a one way street
[05:23:40 PM] <RyanTroy> ok
[05:23:47 PM] <jdub> no problem - it'll be rad to chat for real
[05:24:04 PM] <jdub> thanks dude!
[05:24:07 PM] <RyanTroy> thanks
[05:24:12 PM] SorenHansen has left
[05:24:15 PM] <RyanTroy> chat will you guys tomorrow
[05:24:23 PM] <RyanTroy> ubuntu_demon head to irc
[05:24:28 PM] <RyanTroy> if you can
[05:24:59 PM] <ubuntu_demon> yeah wait a minute
[05:25:13 PM] <RyanTroy> ok