20070228
Attendance
- heno
- dholbach
- mikepedersen
- krister
- halim61
- hittsjunk
Agenda
07:07 heno I haven't made a real agenda, but we are focusing on Feisty bugs
Minutes
Topic: Braille (discussion of bug 80892 https://launchpad.net/bugs/80892)
Topic: Firefox, at-poke and Accerciser
Log
TZ UTC+6
07:00 heno Hello everyone 07:01 heno I think we are still waiting for a few people 07:01 dholbach Hello everybody 07:02 heno Mike Pedersen (Orca team and Sun) emailed me saying he would join 07:03 dholbach yeah, he mailed me too - I mailed the Karlsruhe Accessibility list too 07:03 heno Anyone from the Karlsruhe or Rugen team here today? === heno really needs to learn some German now 07:04 dholbach hehe :-) 07:05 heno OK, perhaps we'll start with introductions 07:05 heno I'm Henrik Omma, Ubuntu accessibility coordinator 07:05 dholbach hi mikepedersen 07:06 mikepedersen Hi, sorry to be late. 07:06 heno mikepedersen: just doing introductions 07:07 heno I haven't made a real agenda, but we are focusing on Feisty bugs 07:07 heno see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Testing/Bugs 07:08 dholbach I'm Daniel Holbach, I mainly work on GNOME and with lots of teams of the Development Community, the Accessibility team among them. 07:08 mikepedersen I'm the orca usability engineer at Sun 07:08 heno I think it's a bit too early for TheMuso (in .au), but we can perhaps catch him a bit later 07:09 heno He maintains a few of the packages in question
07:09 mikepedersen Braille still has me filled with much sadness. 07:09 mikepedersen It still doesn't talk to orca at all. 07:09 heno are your issues listed on the wiki page above? 07:10 heno we really should get one or two braille displays for our dev team 07:10 mikepedersen they are listed in a couple of the bugs which I believe are listed. Today's firefox is giving me trouble so I don't have the page up right now 07:11 heno I can only test it with the braille monitor 07:11 halim61 Which version of brlltty are using? 07:11 mikepedersen Does Luke have a display? 07:11 heno yes 07:11 dholbach halim61: 3.7.2 07:11 mikepedersen 3.7.2 is what is in feisty. 07:12 dholbach heno: maybe the guys doing certification should have one. 07:12 heno dholbach: or Scott, who can actually read braille 07:12 dholbach Oh, I didn't know that. 07:12 krister Hi folks, sorry i'm late 07:12 dholbach hi krister 07:13 dholbach halim61: is there a newer version you think we should have? 07:13 heno mikepedersen: how can we try to track this further? 07:13 mikepedersen Does Luke have a display? 07:13 heno is it a brltty->orca problem? 07:13 heno mikepedersen: yes he does 07:13 heno not sure what model 07:14 dholbach krister: we did introtudctions and heno pointed us to a list of most important bugs he compiled: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Testing/Bugs 07:14 krister I have a braille voyager that's powered by usb, does that help? 07:14 mikepedersen the same configureation worked fine on edgy I think it is a side effect of the current problem of USB displays trying to start twice aat boot. 07:14 heno krister: yes, are you running feisty? 07:15 heno ugh, the link to that bug is wrong 07:15 krister Yes, and my display also started twice. I solved that by simply removing the brltty script, because it turned out there was another brltty-dist script that did the same. 07:16 dholbach krister: which script was that? 07:16 mikepedersen If I remove the brltty script in /etc/init.d brltty keeps trying to start over and over again. 07:17 mikepedersen Henrik, this is the bug you closed a few weeks ago that really isn't fully fixed. 07:17 mikepedersen sorry I don't have the number in front of me. 07:17 krister In my system there was one brltty script and a brltty-dist script both in /etc/init.d i removed the one called brltty, since it was an old script and now my display starts only once or so i think. 07:18 heno https://bugs.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/brltty/+bug/83939 07:18 Ubugtu Malone bug 83939 in brltty "brltty starts twice on boot" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 07:18 heno That's still open 07:18 heno I'll change the status though 07:19 heno ok, original bug 80892 07:19 Ubugtu Malone bug 80892 in linux-source-2.6.20 "USB braille display no longer starts with brltty" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/80892 07:19 krister I don't know, but if there are people here having braille displays, you could check if there are more scripts in /etc/init.d that are called something with "brltty". 07:20 dholbach krister: that suggests that a newly installed brltty should work nicely (with the new configuration file), so i understand correctly? 07:21 mikepedersen in init.d I only have the brltty script 07:21 krister The new configuration file? 07:21 heno That might actually be missing 07:22 heno when updating I saw this error: 07:22 heno cp: cannot stat '/etc/udev/rules.d/85-brltty.rules' 07:22 heno mvo, mvo_ ^ :) 07:22 heno update bug 07:22 dholbach krister: you said there was a brltty.dist and brltty file - that situation happens, when dpkg wants to install a new version of a conffile, but you made local changes - I interpreted "removed the one called brltty, since it was an old script" as that situation 07:23 krister Yup, i did and that solved the problem. 07:23 dholbach ok, good. 07:23 krister Should one perhaps rename brltty-dist to brltty? 07:24 dholbach brltty-dist only exists, if you do local changes to that file (before the update) and then not let dpkg overwrite your old file with the new one 07:24 mikepedersen Krister, are you able to get Orca to talk to brlapi? 07:25 hittsjunk I had orca using brltty last week with no problems. 07:25 krister I'm an idiot when it comes to programming and programming terms, in other words sorry, i didn't understand the question.:-) 07:25 mikepedersen WHen you run orca do you get braille? 07:26 hittsjunk yes 07:26 krister Loud and clear. i have braille as well. 07:26 mikepedersen are you using an USB display 07:26 hittsjunk I use a serial display. 07:26 krister Yes sir. 07:26 heno mikepedersen: do you have an upgrade or a fresh feisty install in this case? (I think you said Herd 4) 07:27 mikepedersen This laptop has been upgraded several times over the last month. It is now current as of today. 07:27 mikepedersen I'm currently downloading a new live cd though. 07:28 dholbach It'd be interesting to know which Accessibility bugs you see as big showstoppers at the moment. 07:29 mikepedersen Krister, an interesting test would be to put back the brltty script, let brltty try to start twice and see if orca still shows braille. This would confirm what I'm seeing with orca. 07:29 heno mikepedersen: can we follow this up later with Luke? Possibly by phone or skype? 07:29 mikepedersen sure, 07:30 mikepedersen send me a note off-line and we can set something up. 07:30 halim61 Does the current feisty gnomespeech include viavoice support? 07:30 hittsjunk The problems with at-spi 1.17.1 are causing me to most trouble now. 07:30 dholbach halim61: sorry for my ignorance, but is viavoice one of the proprietary options? 07:30 heno dholbach: yes 07:30 mikepedersen Kenny, a fix for this was checked in to svn last night. 07:30 dholbach halim61: it'll be hard to get support for that in :-( 07:31 halim61 There is a dummy package available to support opensource apps. 07:31 heno we've not really looked at building with support for those yet 07:31 dholbach and at-spi 1.17.2 should hit the archive (after the freeze probably) 07:31 hittsjunk I saw that haven't upgraded yet. They relased 1.17.2 today. 07:31 dholbach yeah, I updated the package 07:31 heno has anyone tested the braille setup script? 07:32 dholbach halim61: oh - could you mail a link to that to ubuntu-accessibility-devel AT lists DOT ubuntu DOT com ? 07:32 heno is that working at this point and is it at all useful? 07:33 mikepedersen I haven't tried it. SHould it work with a bluetooth display? 07:33 hittsjunk Will it work with a serial display? 07:33 heno should in theory work with both 07:33 krister mikepedersen: i will try what you suggested and see if braille starts again or not with Orca. 07:34 heno but you'll need to know what keys to press first 07:34 halim61 Yes I can but I must first subcribe to the list. 07:34 heno might be worth reading the script in fact 07:34 mikepedersen and those keys are? 07:34 dholbach halim61: I can moderate the mail, if you don't want to be on the list - no problem. 07:35 heno "Device type (b/s/u/x): " 07:35 heno where b is bluetooth, s is serial, u is usb 07:35 heno (x is exit) 07:36 mikepedersen does the bluetooth display have to be paired first or will this be part of the setup? 07:36 heno see /sbin/brltty-settup on a feisty system 07:37 heno mikepedersen: that should be done in the setup 07:37 heno id does: /lib/brltty/brltty.sh -b auto -d "bluetooth:$b_address" 07:39 mikepedersen OK I just tried this I just need to enter the ID of the device I think 07:40 heno right 07:40 heno Anyway, this is very bleeding edge and could use some testing 07:40 mikepedersen I'll test it today. 07:41 heno We are trying to move the boundaries and sometimes we break stuff :) 07:41 heno We shipped a broken GOK by default for two releases :-/ 07:41 krister Can i put in something for the wish list or is it off-topic? 07:41 heno krister: go ahead 07:43 halim61 dholbach: you have mail 07:43 dholbach halim61: gracias 07:43 krister I'm somewhat of a fanatic when it comes to freedom of choice, that's why i am so interested in Linux. Now Evo is a very good email client, but i want to know if something could be done with Sylpheed-claws-gtk2? It seems like everything exept the folder- and message list tables are accessible... 07:44 krister I can navigate in the program, but can't read msgs and lists. 07:44 halim61 hmm I am waiting for thunderbird support 07:45 heno hm, we will have to focus on a few apps, which probably means evo and thunderbird 07:45 hittsjunk I came late, sorry if this has already been discussed. Are there plans for Firefox3 packages? 07:45 heno krister: for sylpheed you should probably contact upstream directly 07:46 krister Upstream? 07:46 dholbach halim61: thanks again - I passed it on 07:46 heno hittsjunk: I've spoken to the mozilla team about it 07:46 heno krister: the authors of sylpheed 07:46 halim61 DHolbach: thanks. 07:46 heno hittsjunk: no clear date yet though 07:46 robert_____ custom forms would be great if it worked with FK better :-/ 07:47 robert_____ (sorry guys, wrong window)
07:47 heno the focus is inevitably on Feisty (= Firefox2) ATM 07:48 hittsjunk Firefox 2 is only usable with firevox 07:48 krister heno: will do. Just wondered if this was something that the orca guys should check. Not so good at knowing whom to contact when. Still anewbie after 3 yrs of Linux.:-) 07:49 heno krister: you can ask on the Orca list, but my guess is that it's a sylpheed problem 07:49 mikepedersen Krister, we looked at it quite a while ago. If you could get the developers to test with access tools this would show them a lot of the problems. 07:49 heno have you tried running at-poke with it? 07:50 heno exactly 07:50 mikepedersen Blind people can't run atpoke because it is by design not an accessible application 07:50 heno which is outrageous 07:50 hittsjunk Exerciser is supposed to be an accessible replacement. I haven't tried it yet. 07:50 heno there is a new alternative out now though === heno looks it up 07:51 mikepedersen it does sound pretty good though. 07:51 mikepedersen it is not a stand-alone app yet though. 07:51 heno http://live.gnome.org/Accerciser 07:53 heno dholbach: any chance we could make a .deb of that? ^ 07:53 dholbach I'll take a look at it. 07:53 heno doesn't even need to be in the repos for feisty 07:53 heno just somewhere people can grab it and test 07:54 dholbach better to have it in the repos :) 07:54 heno I spend 20-30 minutes trying to build it but gave up 07:54 mikepedersen it hasn't yet been extracted into its own package yet I think it is still just part of LSR. 07:54 heno dholbach: of course, yes :) 07:55 mikepedersen I could be wrong about that though I'm just going by the release note. 07:55 heno mikepedersen: ok, but we do have LSR in Universe right? 07:55 mikepedersen think so 07:56 heno yeah, found it 07:56 heno launchpad drives me mad sometimes going in circles :-[ 07:57 heno https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lsr 07:58 mikepedersen it'll be nicer whhen it is its own package though so we can just run it when orca is running. 07:59 heno mikepedersen: is it possible to run orca and lsr at the same time? 07:59 hittsjunk No, youcan only run one at a time. 07:59 mikepedersen I'm pretty sure you'd get lots and lots of conflicts with the keyuboard, speech, and braille 08:02 mikepedersen remember though that orca already provides several ways to print out the application hierarchy. 08:03 mikepedersen many people find this pretty useful for debugging an app as well. I do however think that the accsersiser way looks pretty cool 08:05 mikepedersen Henrik, do you have much more you want to cover? 08:06 krister Is navigating the calendar in Evo considered a bug? It can be somewhat tricky finding ones way around in the different views and yet the calendar is said to be accessible. 08:06 heno mikepedersen: no, I think we just need to follow up on some individual issues 08:06 mikepedersen the only view I know of that really dosn't work to well is the month view. 08:06 mikepedersen feel free to contact me about the braille stuff. 08:07 heno krister: if it doesn't work as expected then that's a bug. If it's expected not to be accessible then that is *also* a bug 08:07 krister Ok, i have tried the week view and the month view and i think i've got an incling of a hint on what is wrong though i'm no hacker. 08:07 heno please file those, at least on stuff in main 08:08 mikepedersen if you want, email me first and I can try to explain the evolution navigation model as it is a bit strange. 08:08 heno krister: try filing a bug in the gnome bug tracker 08:08 heno so the actual evo authors will read it 08:09 heno We should generally be filing more accessibility bugs, and tagging them 08:09 krister Ok i'll email you or could you please send me a little note about it to krister AT kristersplace DOT ws? 08:09 heno so we can quantify what the issues are 08:09 mikepedersen OK 08:09 heno ok, thanks everyone!
MeetingLogs/Accessibility/20070228 (last edited 2008-08-06 17:00:55 by localhost)