21:06:30 <Pendulum> #startmeeting
21:06:30 <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 30 21:06:30 2010 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
21:06:30 <meetingology> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
21:06:41 <AlanBell> o/
21:06:59 <Pendulum> okay can we just get a quite roll call of who is here?
21:07:21 * charlie-tca here
21:07:31 <Pendulum> o/
21:08:38 <Pendulum> The meeting agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
21:09:03 <Pendulum> (sorry, for repeating, but now that there's a bot, hopefully it will make doing minutes easier so they may actually get done this time ;-) )
21:09:55 <AlanBell> I will sort out the minutes, this is an experimental new bot and this is it's first live outing
21:09:57 <Pendulum> #topic Go over finalized personas survey
21:10:28 <Pendulum> We've got finalized questions for the survey to be used for creating personas
21:10:58 <Pendulum> #link http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/OGCR7tZiNX
21:11:42 <Pendulum> the only things we need to sort at this point is the data collection & processing information and the format(s) for the survey
21:12:29 <Pendulum> AlanBell, piedoggie and I were talking slightly about these earlier
21:13:40 <vincentxavier> Pendulum: the survey's items are not to be discussed anymore ?
21:14:11 <AlanBell> sure they can be discussed
21:14:20 <piedoggie> back
21:14:24 <Pendulum> but they need to be discussed now :)
21:14:30 <AlanBell> but we are going to start building a form that can be filled in pretty soon
21:14:48 <Pendulum> (I want to have this survey set by the end of this meeting so the translations can happen for APRIL)
21:14:51 <vincentxavier> ok then, kinouchou think there are too much open questions
21:15:31 <vincentxavier> and it wil be difficult to treat these items
21:15:40 <kinouchou> Pendulum, I've give the translate of the survey for APRIL, but i haven't answer
21:15:42 <AlanBell> the goal of the survey is to get information that we can use to flesh out some persona documents
21:16:03 <Pendulum> we really need as much information as possible and I've found that when you ask specific questions, people leave out details
21:16:46 <vincentxavier> Pendulum: specific question should have tickboxes or radio buttons :)
21:16:56 <AlanBell> we are not really looking to find out x% of respondents replied this way
21:18:07 <Pendulum> this survey is a bit of a compromise. In an ideal world we'd do what the design team does and go into people's homes to see all the details
21:18:28 <Pendulum> but we can't, so we were aiming for as open ended a survey as possible so that they could give us as much detail as possible
21:19:23 <vincentxavier> Pendulum: I'm just translating some of kinouchou's concerns
21:19:31 <Pendulum> vincentxavier: I know :-)
21:19:50 <AlanBell> have you seen the design team document vincentxavier and kinouchou?
21:20:01 <kinouchou> no
21:20:20 <piedoggie> URL please? I'm not sure if I've seen it either
21:20:33 <AlanBell> ok, grab a copy of this http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/personas_final.pdf
21:21:01 <AlanBell> I will take it down after the meeting as it isn't cleared for web publication
21:21:09 <AlanBell> (probably would be, we just never asked for that)
21:21:24 <Pendulum> AlanBell: thanks
21:21:43 <piedoggie> okay, you're missing one thing I think that is very important. In the course of the year, how many different machines does the user use?
21:21:44 <AlanBell> so don't blog it or put it up on the web anywhere, but feel free to use it as the basis of the work we are doing
21:22:05 <piedoggie> For example, I use anywhere between 20 and 100 different machines per year
21:22:06 <AlanBell> piedoggie: good question, bung it in the etherpad
21:22:16 <Pendulum> it's in there
21:22:19 <piedoggie> already there
21:22:23 <Pendulum> I just changed "machines" to "computers"
21:22:26 <piedoggie> and yes, I'm the guilty person. :-)
21:22:38 <Pendulum> because a lot of non-technical users won't know "machines"
21:22:52 <AlanBell> kind of what your expectations are when sitting at a random computer vs how much stuff you can expect to taylor to your own preferences
21:22:52 <piedoggie> That's fine. I use machines because I was thinking of number of devices such as ATM machines, gas pumps, cell phones etc.
21:23:13 <Pendulum> should I separate questions then? because I think that may be 2 separate questions
21:23:15 <piedoggie> I don't expect a random computer to be tailored to my preferences. I expect to carry my own machine which is tailored to my preferences and as my gateway for control to that random machine
21:23:40 <piedoggie> yeah, it probably should be two separate questions. How many computers and how many  "consumer electronic devices" do you use
21:23:45 <Pendulum> yeah
21:23:48 <piedoggie> maybe give examples of ATMs, DVD players etc.
21:23:56 <AlanBell> piedoggie: ok, that is an interesting use-case
21:24:28 <piedoggie> part of the reason I give that use case is that many machines could never be made accessible because they exist Nichola center or they are a cloud application host
21:24:35 <piedoggie> sorry, they exist in a data center
21:24:57 <piedoggie> or they are remote learning server
21:25:27 <piedoggie> you can never enable a machine that isn't yours is an interesting axiom we may want to consider
21:25:46 <piedoggie> another way to look at it is, when you're disabled, you want to pown every machine
21:26:33 <AlanBell> default root access to all disabled people, sounds like a good question to put to the security team :-)
21:27:03 <piedoggie> exactly. Of course we know the always be safe because between all of us, we will hear no evil, see no evil, or speak no evil.
21:27:21 <Pendulum> that's because we're all childlike and must be protected from the evils of the world
21:27:28 <Pendulum> ;-)
21:28:15 <Pendulum> are there any other concerns/questions people want to raise about the content of the questions?
21:29:24 <AlanBell> how many people is it going out to do you think?
21:30:06 <Pendulum> honestly, I'm planning on sticking it on 2 different websites that have an average userbase of 20-30 people who contribute regularly plus probably get viewed by 100+ a day (each)
21:30:12 <Pendulum> and both my blogs
21:30:31 <piedoggie> I would suggest also putting it up on speech computing.com
21:30:52 <Pendulum> kinouchou: how many people do you think may be willing to fill it out at APRIL?
21:30:56 <piedoggie> I do it myself except I've been "excluded" because of my persistent criticisms of nuance and their inability to fix bugs after decades of releases
21:31:15 <AlanBell> nobody is excluded
21:31:30 <AlanBell> apart from me perhaps
21:31:39 <Pendulum> AlanBell: I think he means he can't post to speech computing anymore
21:31:47 <AlanBell> oh, I see
21:31:54 <piedoggie> exactly
21:32:09 * AlanBell missed the point
21:32:31 * piedoggie can be up skewer (obscure)
21:32:40 <Pendulum> honestly, I'd love it if some people who are non-disabled also filled it out, to see if they have any things that would help with tying into why accessibility is important to a wider audience
21:32:49 <Pendulum> but I'm targeting disability groups
21:33:00 <Pendulum> if we can get 30 surveys I'll be happy, but I"m hoping for more
21:33:15 <vincentxavier> Pendulum: kinouchou is not there at the moment. I would say about ten answers
21:33:29 <Pendulum> vincentxavier: thanks for the estimate :)
21:33:40 <piedoggie> may be creating an article for environments/online magazines that are less contentious than, say, Slashdot or digg might not be a bad idea
21:33:51 <AlanBell> I want to do something separate about non-disabled use of accessibility technology later
21:34:04 <Pendulum> AlanBell: ah, okay
21:34:12 <piedoggie> if the sore hand mailing list still exists, that might be useful. Elderly advocacy
21:34:28 <piedoggie> fibromyalgia, MS, Parkinson's
21:34:33 <Pendulum> also, I was going to see if the gnome-a11y list would help out at all (if I ever stop being shy and introduce myself)
21:34:51 <AlanBell> my phone has voice dialling and a satnav that does text to speech for example
21:34:53 <piedoggie> those are all communities that could do good user feedback
21:34:56 <Pendulum> piedoggie: I was going to probably try the Spoon Theory boards too
21:35:21 <piedoggie> spoon theory? Isn't that something for couples that like each other?
21:35:34 * piedoggie should have warned people about my sense of humor
21:35:36 <Pendulum> piedoggie: www.butyoudontlooksick.com (wasn't sure if you'd heard of it)
21:36:41 <AlanBell> ok, so next steps on the form?
21:36:54 <piedoggie> I love it. It describes my life because every time I tell a potential customer or employer that I don't do programming anymore, they look at my hands and say  something like "they don't look broken"
21:37:48 <Pendulum> okay, the one other thing in terms of content of the survey that we need to sort is the Data Collection and Processing
21:38:15 <Pendulum> info
21:39:51 <Pendulum> I have to admit that I have no idea what the European legislation being referencedon the etherpad is. Does anyone here know?
21:40:16 <AlanBell> yes
21:41:40 <AlanBell> I don't think it is a huge problem, this is all voluntarily provided information and anonymized
21:41:42 <Pendulum> AlanBell: can you let me know if what I'm currently putting in makes sense and if it's enough?
21:43:11 <Pendulum> also, we talked about earlier creating an e-mail address for this
21:43:26 <Pendulum> ubuntu-accessibility-survey@gmail if I can get it?
21:43:41 <AlanBell> that sounds fine
21:44:36 <Pendulum> and I'm going to say that 2 people will have access to the e-mail address? (that way should something happen to me, there's back-up ;-) )
21:44:41 <AlanBell> it might be best to host it in the EU if you are paranoid about data protection. Stuff leaving the EU is the main issue normally.
21:44:42 <piedoggie> I would think that a web form would be easier when entering data and processing the output then editing a document and shipping it by e-mail. Or am I totally missing the point?
21:45:05 <AlanBell> piedoggie: there will be a web form
21:45:16 <Pendulum> piedoggie: we're doing both
21:45:26 <kinouchou> I'm come back
21:45:38 <piedoggie> Also this is a "official" ubintu project, would it not be possible to get an official address from ubuntu?
21:45:58 <Pendulum> piedoggie: probably not. and it could take months
21:46:15 <Pendulum> (and then would still probably need a gmail or something to forward to)
21:46:33 <Pendulum> most teams I know use gmail addresses for contests and similar
21:46:36 <AlanBell> no, it wouldn't be an Ubuntu.com address
21:48:10 <AlanBell> ok, so as for hosting the web form element of it
21:48:37 <AlanBell> there are a number of online survey software-as-a-service type things, surveymonkey is one of them
21:48:46 <AlanBell> some analysis of their accessibility has been done
21:48:58 <AlanBell> http://wac.osu.edu/workshops/survey_of_surveys/
21:49:59 <AlanBell> however there is a nice Free Software solution that plugs into wordpress, is somewhat easier than hand crafting a form and has no silly limits like surveymonkey does
21:50:37 <AlanBell> and because is is open source it can be tinkered with for maximum accessibility
21:50:42 <kinouchou> Pendulum, for the survey, we want the people answer during the events of july
21:51:11 <AlanBell> http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/tdo-mini-forms/ I set it up on a blog earlier, it seems to do everything required
21:51:16 <kinouchou> and the mozilla group can translate it in other langage
21:52:16 <TheMuso> Sorry got my morning mixed up it seems.
21:52:20 <Pendulum> by the way we now have ubuntu.accessibility.survey@gmail.com as an e-mail address for this survey
21:52:33 <Pendulum> TheMuso: no worries. we've been discussing the survey
21:53:01 <Pendulum> by the way, this meeting has been going on for about 50 minutes, do people need to go soon or can we continue the meeting past an hour?
21:53:05 <kinouchou> Pendulum, I can ask for have a mail in @ubuntu-fr.org if ou want
21:53:35 <kinouchou> and after forward the mail in the mailing list
21:53:55 <Pendulum> kinouchou: nah, I think it's fine if everyone e-mails to the e-mail address I just created since then I can just strip all the identifying info
21:54:06 <kinouchou> oki
21:55:43 <Pendulum> AlanBell: did you set up a test survey that we can see? (that way hopefully TheMusp can tell us if he can access it?)
21:55:49 <Pendulum> * TheMuso
21:57:24 <AlanBell> I will do something with a couple of sensible questions and put it on the internet somewhere
21:58:08 <Pendulum> any chance you can get it done tonight?
21:58:21 <Pendulum> (or by the weekend at the very least?)
21:58:30 <AlanBell> I will try, tomorrow morning certainly
21:58:53 <Pendulum> #action AlanBell to create test wordpress survey
21:59:15 <AlanBell> great
21:59:30 <Pendulum> is everyone else okay with the idea of having the survey on wordpress and then a text based version that we can put up on our wiki?
21:59:44 <Pendulum> (that also means that if people want to e-mail the survey directly to people they can)
22:00:37 <TheMuso> SOunds ok.
22:00:56 <kinouchou> we can make many page for many translate?
22:01:12 <Pendulum> kinouchou: definitely. That's another reason why having a version on the wiki is good
22:01:33 <Pendulum> okay, so it sounds like we're done discussing personas for today
22:02:34 <Pendulum> next thing on the agenda is the wiki changes, but neither person working on the wiki is here
22:02:46 <Pendulum> TheMuso: do you have anything to report back on from the development side of things?
22:03:35 <TheMuso> Pendulum: Not really. I think everyone knows that Vinux will be used as an accessibility testing ground, and mature features will then be moved to Ubuntu. I am currently working with the Vinux folks to clean up their build process, and make it a deacent derivative of Ubuntu, thats easily buildable, updatable, etc.
22:03:41 <AlanBell> #topic it!
22:03:56 <Pendulum> AlanBell: I was waiting to figure out if there was a point in topic-ing it!
22:04:00 <TheMuso> I think most cutting edge development will happen there first.
22:04:34 <Pendulum> okay, so I guess that covers that
22:05:02 <Pendulum> (unless anyone else wants to make it a topic for dicussion?)
22:06:13 <Pendulum> okay, moving on, final topic
22:06:27 <Pendulum> #topic Ubuntu User Day session
22:06:48 <Pendulum> for those of you who don't know, Ubuntu User Days are days set up for the beginning Ubuntu user
22:07:42 <Pendulum> I've signed up to do a session on accessibility. I'm not planning on getting into any detail of how to set up things because that's so personalized, but just an overview of what exists in Ubuntu and where to get help for Ubuntu accessibility issues
22:08:37 <Pendulum> if anyone has things they really want brought up in my session, please either e-mail me pendulum@ubuntu.com or find me on IRC or something
22:08:52 <Pendulum> I've still got a pretty limited knowledge and I really want to make sure I cover as much as I can in the hour I'll have
22:08:59 <Pendulum> oh, and the next User Day is July 10th
22:09:04 <Pendulum> (sorry, was missing that part)
22:09:09 * piedoggie has one more maybe topic for today
22:09:40 <Pendulum> If you want to help out with the session it's scheduled for 21:00 UTC on the 10th (yes, it's a Saturday)
22:12:19 <kinouchou> I'm in the french event the 10th
22:12:31 <kinouchou> I will reading the logs
22:13:15 <Pendulum> okay, piedoggie's topic I think will be better served by less formail chatter
22:13:23 <Pendulum> does anyone else have anything they'd like to bring up?
22:16:30 <Pendulum> I guess that's it for today
22:16:34 <Pendulum> thanks everyone for coming!
22:16:40 <AlanBell> thanks Pendulum
22:16:48 <Pendulum> #endmeeting

MeetingLogs/Accessibility/20100630 (last edited 2010-08-14 20:18:30 by alanbell)