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20:58:47 <Pendulum> #startmeeting
20:58:47 <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Aug 18 20:58:47 2010 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
20:58:47 <meetingology> updated
20:58:47 <meetingology> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
20:58:47 <meetingology> updated
20:58:57 <Pendulum> yeah, I realised that after the fact
20:59:05 <Pendulum> Can everyone here for the meeting please say "present"?
20:59:09 <AlanBell> present
20:59:12 <kinouchou> present
20:59:13 <MichelleQ> present
20:59:14 <EverettZ> present
20:59:18 <sshaw> present
20:59:18 <maco> gift
20:59:22 * TheMuso is here.
20:59:30 <paul_h> present
20:59:50 <TheMuso> ...and stillwaking up somewhat.
20:59:56 <charlie-tca> present
21:00:01 <Pendulum> okay
21:00:16 <Pendulum> the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
21:01:30 <Pendulum> so let's jump right in
21:01:37 <Pendulum> #topic Next Steps on Personas
21:01:37 <meetingology> TOPIC: Next Steps on Personas
21:01:59 <Pendulum> we got just under 20 personas, I think ( AlanBell can correct me if I'm wrong)
21:02:07 <AlanBell> bit more actually
21:02:11 <AlanBell> 26 I think
21:02:26 <AlanBell> although one was a bit silly
21:02:29 <Pendulum> oh, wow, big jump after jono and that last push then?
21:02:48 <AlanBell> yes, there were a few more as a result of that
21:02:53 <Pendulum> err... surveys, not personas
21:03:23 <AlanBell> so we have the data from all the questions and I have put it in a spreadsheet
21:03:40 <Pendulum> now we get to start organizing the information collected to start creating the personas
21:03:41 <AlanBell> at the moment each row is a person, I have removed the name and email address
21:04:01 <AlanBell> I could jumble up the answers
21:04:36 <Pendulum> personally, I think surveys probably need to be broken into groups first
21:04:46 <Pendulum> based on impairment
21:04:48 <AlanBell> by impariment?
21:04:52 <Pendulum> yeah
21:04:57 <AlanBell> ok, we agree, you spell better
21:05:08 <Pendulum> because my needs are wildly different from TheMuso's, for example
21:05:23 <Pendulum> and scrambling our answers together would just cause confusion
21:05:29 <AlanBell> yes, my concern with jumbling them was that it would lose meaning
21:06:02 <Pendulum> AlanBell: are you going to any sort of Global Bug Jam event?
21:06:21 <AlanBell> might do, not sure yet
21:06:50 <Pendulum> I was just thinking that that weekend might be a good weekend for a few of us to meet in here and hammer out some of the scrambling and sorting of personas
21:07:07 <AlanBell> so I want to share the spreadsheet with everyone, but I am a little uncomfortable about just sticking it up on the web
21:07:16 <Pendulum> because I think at this point it's going to take a chunk of time
21:07:43 <MichelleQ> I'll be happy to help sort the data into some sort of useable form.
21:08:06 <AlanBell> that would be great MichelleQ
21:08:08 <paul_h> should be okay to post it if no names / emails are included
21:08:44 <Pendulum> also, I think not having it too public (like, don't stick it on the wiki since the way our wiki is currently set up everything ends up on the index on the main page)
21:09:01 <Pendulum> other option would be a google doc with restricted access
21:09:17 <Pendulum> (are google docs accessible?)
21:09:33 <EverettZ> Google docs should not be relied on for accessibility related materials
21:09:43 <Pendulum> okay, then not a google doc
21:09:56 * TheMuso is not a fan of web services for docs/calendars, hell even email.
21:10:04 <EverettZ> If you use it you'd need an alternative source as well
21:10:16 <maco> TheMuso: ajax go boom?
21:10:19 <AlanBell> I kind of want it somewhere anyone who is a member of https://launchpad.net/~accessibility can just get it
21:10:28 <paul_h> if it's a small number of people surely it could just be emailed
21:10:47 <Pendulum> yeah, e-mail may be the best option
21:11:00 <Pendulum> AlanBell: are you up to posting to the list and asking people to e-mail you for the info?
21:11:10 <AlanBell> ok, so I will email the mailing list and offer to mail it to anyone who asks for it
21:11:40 <AlanBell> and it will have everything except email addresses and names and will be one row per survey
21:11:42 <Pendulum> maybe with the caveat that if you ask for it, we expect you to contribute to working on the personas
21:11:51 <AlanBell> and it will be a .ods
21:12:00 <MichelleQ> AlanBell: if you'll go ahead and send it to me, I'll get started reviewing it
21:12:21 <AlanBell> MichelleQ: yeah, I will add the column headers first so you know which answer was to which question
21:12:32 <MichelleQ> sounds good
21:13:03 <Pendulum> AlanBell: can you also just add a row that identifies each survey by a number (so just that says 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.) so that we can talk about them without having to describe every time?
21:13:14 <AlanBell> Pendulum: yes, will do
21:13:22 <Pendulum> ta :)
21:13:41 <AlanBell> and I will copy in the emailed one
21:13:49 <Pendulum> so is it reasonable to say that some of us can plan on committing time the weekend of the Global Bug Jam to working on it together?
21:14:06 <MichelleQ> sure, I don't see where that would be a problem on my end.
21:14:09 <Pendulum> First sorting and then starting to scramble answers?
21:14:15 <AlanBell> yes, I will try and get that mail out this evening, or tomorrow
21:14:34 <Pendulum> #action AlanBell to e-mail list about accessing survey information
21:14:34 * meetingology AlanBell to e-mail list about accessing survey information
21:15:06 <Pendulum> #action group to work on synthesizing survey information during the global bug jam weekend
21:15:06 * meetingology group to work on synthesizing survey information during the global bug jam weekend
21:15:29 <Pendulum> I'd also like to suggest that there be a personas-specific meeting, maybe the first week of September?
21:16:05 <AlanBell> good for me
21:16:18 <Pendulum> that way we could follow-up from what got done during the jam and get started on creating the personas
21:16:19 <MichelleQ> I'll work my calendar around it
21:16:41 <Pendulum> okay, I'll send an e-mail to the list because I know I can't do a meeting at the "normal" time that week
21:17:42 <Pendulum> #action Pendulum to e-mail list about personas-specific meeting for first week of September
21:17:42 * meetingology Pendulum to e-mail list about personas-specific meeting for first week of September
21:17:55 <Pendulum> anyone else have anything personas related they'd like to discuss?
21:18:06 <EverettZ> yes
21:18:41 <EverettZ> Do personas include someone installing the system?  Or are you keeping persona and use-case isolated?
21:19:07 <Pendulum> EverettZ: the personas are just to give developers and designers an idea of what possible users may need
21:19:31 <AlanBell> EverettZ: ping me after the meeting and I will send you some background on personas
21:19:46 <EverettZ> Will there also be use-cases developed?
21:19:51 <Pendulum> we can also use them to think about documentation, but in creation it's just about creating "people" for designers to use
21:20:45 <Pendulum> EverettZ: are you thinking about possible installation set-ups when you say use-cases?
21:20:52 <AlanBell> EverettZ: yes, we can do user stories, different personas are likely to use it in different ways
21:20:54 <Pendulum> (or similar)
21:21:38 <EverettZ> That's good, just far easier for a developer to understand Mr. X needs to complete task Y, than here are Mr. ABCDEF...
21:21:52 <paul_h> I wanted to come on to the issue of installation for people with disabilities when we come to talking about tech stuff and the n release
21:22:12 <Pendulum> paul_h: definitely :)
21:22:51 <Pendulum> anything else?
21:23:54 <ZandreBran> Pendulum, creation of the PPA?
21:24:15 <Pendulum> ZandreBran: not yet. we're talking about personas :)
21:24:37 <ZandreBran> Pendulum, ok, sorry.
21:24:43 <Pendulum> okay, I'm assuming we can go on to the next topic
21:24:50 <Pendulum> #topic Status of Wiki
21:24:50 <meetingology> TOPIC: Status of Wiki
21:25:04 <Pendulum> I talked to nigelb today who is planning on getting to the serious revamp of the wiki this week
21:25:13 <Pendulum> charlie-tca: have you done anything with it at all?
21:25:31 <charlie-tca> no, I am sorry
21:25:50 <charlie-tca> I will get with nigelb on it
21:25:59 <Pendulum> not a problem :)
21:26:13 <Pendulum> sadly, nigelb's in a bad time zone to make these meetings :(
21:26:16 <paul_h> we were talking earlier today on here about how the wiki ought to have info on installing lucid headless...
21:26:43 <Pendulum> paul_h: yeah, that's in the plans. although the revamp here is just getting it so that the wiki has up to date information on the team
21:27:12 <Pendulum> anything else?
21:27:15 <paul_h> oh right okay
21:28:46 <Pendulum> moving on
21:29:01 <Pendulum> #topic What's Happening with the Development
21:29:01 <meetingology> TOPIC: What's Happening with the Development
21:29:07 <Pendulum> TheMuso: do you have an update?
21:29:27 <Pendulum> I think we have more people here who are new to the team and are interested in devel :)
21:30:05 <TheMuso> Theres not much to it. As I said in the past, Vinux will be the test bed for any new accessibility features in Ubuntu. Once they are mature, we move them to the distro proper. THis will allow us to take our time getting them implemented cleanly and at a high quality, with major bugs fixed etc.
21:30:48 <EverettZ> That seems odd to me
21:31:02 <EverettZ> What is the advantage of branching development like that?
21:31:14 <TheMuso> VInux has a low entry barrier to join, and you can get your hands dirty quite easily. At the moment the big project is moving the vinux build process over to the same framework that is used to build Ubuntu disks, which will allow for a much more efficient development process.
21:31:40 <TheMuso> EverettZ: 6 months is often not enough time to get new accessibility features ready, to the point where most people are satisfied with them.
21:31:55 <paul_h> TheMuso: will maverick ship with the corba based at-spi?
21:31:57 <TheMuso> And, I don't get to work on accessibility full time, so this makes sure things don'
21:32:05 <ZandreBran> this a point...
21:32:06 <TheMuso> And, I don't get to work on accessibility full time, so this makes sure things don't get rushed/missed/neglected.
21:32:10 <TheMuso> paul_h: yes
21:32:29 <ZandreBran> creating ppa to centralize various packages that remix for the visually impaired are using, like Vinux and LinuxAcessivel.org...
21:32:37 <ZandreBran> this because we are not tied to the release version of Ubuntu and can not wait.
21:32:43 <TheMuso> ZandreBran: Vinux has a PPA, or several PPAs actually.
21:33:12 <TheMuso> ZandreBran: At the same time, once we have new interesting features ready in VInux, moving them to Ubuntu should be relatively painless, given that they are well packaged/coded.
21:33:30 <ZandreBran> TheMuso, yes I know. but why not centralize it in Ubuntu?
21:33:34 <TheMuso> The only issues when moving new features over, is how they impact everybody else, and how we solve those issues.
21:33:58 <EverettZ> I would be far more interested in contributing to something with a brand.
21:34:01 <TheMuso> ZandreBran: Because its a higher barrier for entry for new devs to get things packaged for one.
21:34:20 <EverettZ> like Ubuntu, and not to something I have no real knowledge of the brand of like Vinux
21:34:43 <TheMuso> My plan is to get VInux recognised as an official derivative of Ubuntu.
21:34:44 <EverettZ> Anyway, that answers my question
21:35:04 <paul_h> will we be able to use vinux to help work out how to make the main ubuntu cd installer better for the VI community?
21:35:15 <TheMuso> paul_h: Yes.
21:35:33 <AlanBell> TheMuso: so like Medibuntu or Ubuntu Studio
21:35:35 <TheMuso> One of the biggest problems with including accessibility in Ubuntu is integrating it such that it doesn't get in the way of everybody else.
21:35:42 <TheMuso> AlanBell: Yes.
21:36:09 <TheMuso> And unforutnately there are technical barriers that need to be overcome for some of that to happen properly.
21:36:17 <EverettZ> I think ther is a philsophical problem with his, accessibility shoudn't be considered by developers to be getting in the way
21:36:22 <ZandreBran> TheMuso, Yes, I understand. And I can help if necessary. Because I think that the use of PPA Ubuntu-Acsessibility strengthen the team.
21:36:36 <paul_h> TheMuso: okay, so I want to help with the boot process for the future... how can I?
21:36:54 <TheMuso> paul_h: Firstly, we start talking on the ubuntu-accessibility-dev list about ideas we can explore.
21:37:28 <paul_h> oh, that's a different list to the main ubuntu-accessibility list?
21:37:40 <TheMuso> EverettZ: Not mine. I can assure you that if we propose a UI facing change for accessibility needs, that we will be asked how we could either do things so its unobtrusive, or do things differently etc.
21:37:58 <TheMuso> paul_h: Yes. Quiet atm, but dev discussion should be there, it is the -dev list after all.
21:38:16 <EverettZ> So there is a problem with the respect that other community developers have for accessibility?
21:38:19 <TheMuso> I have been through this before, so am talking from experience re integrating stuff into Ubuntu.
21:38:29 <Pendulum> ubuntu-accessibility-devel@lists.ubuntu.com :)
21:38:29 <TheMuso> EverettZ: Its nothing to do with respect.
21:38:54 <EverettZ> What does it have to do with?
21:39:29 <TheMuso> It has to do with the fact that the average person doesn't necessarily want to have to deal with a mandetory set of questions about accessibility on install/bootup for example.
21:39:30 <ZandreBran> O I enter in contact with the list-dev to the PPA. Thanks all.
21:39:46 <ZandreBran> Ok, I enter in contact with the list-dev to the PPA. Thanks all.
21:39:55 <EverettZ> We are clearly talking about two different things
21:40:14 <TheMuso> I don't think we are, but if you feel thats the case...
21:40:33 <paul_h> okay I will join that list, thanks
21:40:42 <EverettZ> I am asking if the broader developer community supports accessibility, and why the two projects are not integrated.  Accessibility, done properly, should have minimal intrusion to good UI patterns
21:41:11 <TheMuso> EverettZ: As far as I am aware, the broader dev community generally knows a little about accessibility, but not as much as they should.
21:41:36 <AlanBell> EverettZ: totally understand your point, and we are doing stuff to educate the broader community (personas being one part of it)
21:41:39 <paul_h> there is a blueprint for redesigning the ubiquity installer that's set for the current beta release. there is no use case for someone doing an accessible install :(
21:41:51 <TheMuso> The two projects are not integrated because the people who started vinux wanted accessibility to be available from the get go, without having to follow a set of commands when they don't get feedback on whether they are doing things right.
21:42:20 <AlanBell> the main CD is always a compromise for space, for everything, doing an optimised respin of Ubuntu allows different compromises to be made
21:42:29 <TheMuso> AlanBell: Exactly.
21:42:40 <EverettZ> I don't see why you think making installation accessible needs to be visually intrusive
21:42:46 <TheMuso> paul_h: And I think the UI for that has now landed, so we need to test it for problems, and report them.
21:42:48 <AlanBell> I think we need to get info about vinux onto the wiki, and work on the recognition of it as a derivative
21:43:01 <Pendulum> AlanBell: +1
21:43:12 <AlanBell> EverettZ: something like including Festival and 200MB of voices on the CD would be a compromise that could be done in vinux
21:43:45 <EverettZ> So does the ubuntu accessibility value universal accessibility?
21:43:51 <TheMuso> Yes
21:44:06 <AlanBell> and it can be a development playground to get a totally awesome boot experience that works for everyone, and gets put into the main Ubuntu installer.
21:44:24 <EverettZ> But wait, those big pesky voices will take up space on the CD
21:44:41 <TheMuso> AlanBell: Exactly.
21:44:51 <AlanBell> Ubuntu is mainstream and heading towards accessible for all. Vinux is accessible for all and heading for mainstream. We want them to meet in the middle as soon as possible.
21:45:07 <ZandreBran> I do not understand this. I know here in linuxacessivel.org and thank the people of Vinux. But it would be better to have something else connected to the Ubuntu team and not linked to another brand?
21:45:24 <EverettZ> But, if the arugment is space compromise, how will you ever get it on the main CD?
21:45:33 <TheMuso> We don't use festival on the main CD.
21:45:41 <TheMuso> AlanBell was just using it as an example.
21:46:07 <AlanBell> EverettZ: there is a voice on the main CD already, just not loads of them in high quality.
21:46:23 * TheMuso doesn't think you could call festival high quality...
21:46:28 <EverettZ> So then the voice space argument is invalid above?
21:46:31 <TheMuso> Well I don't.
21:46:45 <TheMuso> As I said, it was an example.
21:46:45 <paul_h> *** paul is happy for this debate to continue on the devl list
21:46:53 <TheMuso> About compromises
21:47:02 * TheMuso is too.
21:47:11 <AlanBell> yup, lets move on
21:47:12 <EverettZ> alright, probably not the path I would have taken to improve accessibility, but you understand the community far better than I
21:47:49 <MichelleQ> anything else on our agenda today?
21:47:58 <TheMuso> I've been the only one working on this stuff for the last few years, and experience has helped me realise that developing accessibility stuff outside the official distro will be beneficial, especially when wanting to get it back into the distro.
21:48:10 <TheMuso> UDS N/N Cycle.
21:48:31 <Pendulum> and both AlanBell and I have various things not on the agenda that should get mentioned
21:48:52 <Pendulum> #topic Plans for Ubuntu 11.04 (aka Natty Narwhal)
21:48:52 <meetingology> TOPIC: Plans for Ubuntu 11.04 (aka Natty Narwhal)
21:49:46 <Pendulum> this isn't even a really formal thing, but I just wanted to bring up that we should start thinking about it so that at the next meeting we can come up with things we might want in a blueprint for UDS
21:49:53 <TheMuso> Agreed.
21:50:02 <AlanBell> paul_h: want to talk about the boot sequence?
21:50:23 <Pendulum> for those of you who don't know UDS is the Ubuntu Developer Summit, the next one is in Orlando the last week of October and it's where Ubuntu developers and community get together to make plans for the next cycle
21:50:34 <paul_h> I thought we just agreed to move that to the ubuntu devl list
21:51:00 <Pendulum> AlanBell: I'm mostly hoping people can use this reminder to start thinking about what they might want. less worried about answers right now
21:51:02 <TheMuso> AlanBell: I think we will talk about it on the dev list and work out what we will do from there.
21:51:05 <AlanBell> oh, ok
21:51:42 <Pendulum> Last UDS there were 3 sessions on accessibility (I suspect that's the most there's ever been at a UDS)
21:52:24 <paul_h> what do other people who might not have talked yet want in the 11.04 release?
21:52:26 <Pendulum> I ran a community-based one for this team, TheMuso ran one on development, and the design team ran one
21:52:36 <EverettZ> Were they well attended?
21:52:39 <maco> i dont remember /any/ at the UDSes i went to... but maybe i didnt pay enough attention
21:52:52 <Pendulum> maco: I went through archives and generally found 1
21:52:56 <Pendulum> (per UDS)
21:53:21 <Pendulum> EverettZ: ranged from probably 10-20 people in the room in each session
21:53:27 <Pendulum> and then another few attending remotely
21:53:30 <MichelleQ> maco: AlanBell: we're still planning on the get-together for Gally, right?
21:53:35 <Pendulum> (UDS is set up so people can do remote participation)
21:53:36 <maco> yes
21:53:42 <AlanBell> yes
21:53:46 <Pendulum> so pretty good attendence
21:54:01 <AlanBell> maco tell us about the Gally thing
21:54:14 <Pendulum> maco: can you wait until other business?
21:54:23 <maco> Pendulum: can do
21:54:28 <Pendulum> anyone else have anything about UDS for now?
21:54:38 <TheMuso> Not from me.
21:55:03 <Pendulum> oh, for the record, I'm hoping we can at least get 2 UDS sessions again
21:55:12 <Pendulum> (one for this team and one on devel)
21:55:28 <Pendulum> #topic Other Business
21:55:28 <meetingology> TOPIC: Other Business
21:55:29 <TheMuso> Sounds good.
21:55:36 <Pendulum> AlanBell: do you want to start?
21:55:40 <TheMuso> A dev one will be needed due to GNOME 3 stuff.
21:55:46 <AlanBell> ok
21:55:56 <AlanBell> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll
21:55:59 <Pendulum> TheMuso: yeah, I assumed as much
21:56:15 <AlanBell> So this project was started a couple of years ago and then kind of stalled, it groups together a set of Ubuntu projects that ensure that the software and the community are awesome for everyone, not just most people.
21:56:26 <AlanBell> I am now picking it up again and restarting it.
21:56:26 <AlanBell> The projects it includes are Accessibility, LGBT, Women, NGO (charities), Youth, Younglings
21:56:30 <AlanBell> The Ubuntu For All project will help support all these projects in whatever way they need, from ensuring they have regular meetings, helping with team reports, helping them get resources etc.
21:56:38 <AlanBell> It will get going next month, anyone wanting to support these teams is welcome to join it.
21:56:39 <TheMuso> Sweet.
21:56:41 <AlanBell> One thing I am pretty clear about is this isn't another council or governing body, it is a support team.
21:57:03 <paul_h> sounds good
21:57:27 <AlanBell> don't have much extra to say about it at the moment, but happy to answer any questions now, or any time.
21:57:43 <paul_h> post something to the list about it
21:57:54 <MichelleQ> AlanBell: I'm happy to help you out however I can
21:58:03 <AlanBell> paul_h: will do, probably early next month
21:58:37 <Pendulum> okay, maco want to talk about Gally now?
21:59:20 <Pendulum> (sorry we're running over folks, feel free to leave if needed!)
21:59:23 <maco> ok so what i'm supposed to mention in Other Business is that i made an app to teach sign language called Gally which highvoltage has already jumped at me about for edubuntu.  it needs more lessons though, so AlanBell & MichelleQ & Pendulum and i were discussing gettig together at UDS to make videos for lessons with good lighting and all
22:00:42 <TheMuso> maco: Is it multi-lingual, i.e supports more than one sign language?
22:00:49 * maco hopes AlanBell knows some BSL
22:01:04 <AlanBell> maco: does it have a wiki page?
22:01:06 <maco> TheMuso: version in 10.10 no, but version in 11.04 will
22:01:12 <MichelleQ> I'm working on some Lessons - somewhat cohesive topics
22:01:15 <TheMuso> maco: Good.
22:02:08 <Pendulum> maco: IRC?
22:02:28 <maco> TheMuso: its the other kind of multilingual already though. as in, lesson files can include translations of the "hint: keep your fingers bent or else you're swearing"
22:02:31 <maco> Pendulum: #gally
22:02:42 <TheMuso> maco: heh ok.
22:03:05 <maco> (never sign squirrel in ASL with straight fingers!)
22:03:41 <TheMuso> We'll need to find some people in Australia to create Auslan stuff for the app.
22:04:11 <maco> TheMuso: on the down side, it's Qt which .... we know that boatload of fail when it comes to a11y :-/  the mitigating factor is the bit where if you cant see the videos of how to sign anyway....
22:04:23 <TheMuso> maco: Right, but this is a visual thing anyway.
22:04:49 <maco> i have a few australian friends who can sign a bit that i was going to poke for help
22:04:51 <AlanBell> we can get various loco teams to help populate it, we want to get a good quality starting set of lessons for others to follow to the same standard
22:04:58 <maco> also br3nda knows NZSL
22:05:21 <EverettZ> And if a blind user would like to run the video for a child?
22:05:29 <EverettZ> Just saying, baby steps.
22:05:37 <AlanBell> maco: if there is no wiki page for it yet we can fold that into the wiki work we are doing
22:05:56 <maco> AlanBell: i dont have any wiki pages, no
22:06:00 <AlanBell> ok
22:06:50 <maco> EverettZ: there is an unfortunate lack of screenreader support for Qt all-around on linux. KDE is completely unusable, as far as i know
22:07:28 <paul_h> QT sucks :)
22:07:37 <AlanBell> EverettZ: realistically the use case is going to be a deaf adult teaching a child to communicate with them
22:07:58 <maco> AlanBell: there /are/ deaf-blind people you know ;-)
22:08:10 <AlanBell> EverettZ: the lesson plans are XML and the app to present them isn't huge
22:08:20 <maco> but they read signs by holding the hands of whomever is signing to them and feeeling the shape of their hands
22:08:36 <AlanBell> maco: yes, palm signs, not sure gally helps for that much
22:08:42 <maco> right
22:08:46 <AlanBell> anyhow, lets move on
22:09:13 <Pendulum> okay, I just wanted to bring up that I had a phone call with jono I guess 2 weeks ago now
22:09:17 <TheMuso> paul_h: IMO QT doesn't suck, it lacks accessibility support. I've heard its a good framework to work with.
22:09:36 <TheMuso> Once it has accessibility support, we will be much better off, in terms of choice.
22:09:45 <Pendulum> He realised he knew nothing about the team and wanted to get an idea of what we're doing and what we need
22:09:58 <paul_h> TheMuso: that's kinder what I meant :)
22:10:03 <MichelleQ> alright everyone, I hate to run, but I have children that need to eat.  Keep me posted on what if anything you want me to help with.  ;-)
22:10:18 <Pendulum> he's also offered to be another voice of support inside Canonical ( TheMuso, there's some stuff I should talk to you privately about that)
22:10:37 <TheMuso> Pendulum: Ok.
22:11:17 <Pendulum> Jono seems to see accessibility as something he really wants to support. So if we have some ideas of specific things he can do (other than blogging, which he's already started)
22:11:27 <Pendulum> feel free to pass them to me and I'll pass them to him!
22:11:47 <Pendulum> I'm hoping at some point to turn the calls into a scheduled thing, but he's so busy it's hard to tell if it'll happen ;-)
22:12:22 <paul_h> sorry - who is this? he works for cononical?
22:12:29 <Pendulum> paul_h: he's the Ubuntu community manager
22:12:55 <Pendulum> so works for Canonical and is well known at least within the Ubuntu community
22:13:01 <Pendulum> (and a fair bit outside it as well)
22:14:02 <paul_h> ah okay, great
22:14:27 <Pendulum> any other questions about the call?
22:14:33 <Pendulum> (I've said anything I needed to say about it)
22:15:05 <TheMuso> no
22:15:14 <Pendulum> Okay, does anyone else have any other business?
22:17:10 <paul_h> I think we're done :)
22:17:24 <Pendulum> yay!
22:17:35 <Pendulum> Next meeting will be 15 September same time, same place :)
22:17:45 <Pendulum> (I'll also announce on the list, obviously
22:17:46 <Pendulum> )
22:17:55 <Pendulum> #endmeeting