Accessibility_2005-12-07
Summary
- Designing use cases testing procedures
Some work done at AccessibilityTesting
- Coordinating the building of a testing derivative
- Possible documentation project: Ubuntufying the [WWW] Abilitynet skill-sheets?
LukeYelavich has some documentation from Jason Grieves he would like to put forward for examination as some further material for accessibility documentation.
- Bounty Ideas -- we should put some ideas forward and advertise them
- High visibility theme
- X-10 support
Improved software speech synthesis support. See: SpeechSynthesisProposal
Package ["http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/wwalker" Orca] -- this is the future of screen reading right? Does it run at all ATM?
- Setting up access.ubuntu.com
- Do we want/need this?
- Some work has been done on accessibility themes
- Do we want to participate in the Massachusetts ODF campaign?
- Producing and distributing the AT-by-default derivative
New wiki structure (DanielHolbach)
I added some AccessibilityTeam/* pages, which are linked from AccessibilityTeam.
- I think we need more centralized resources to get us as a team more focused on goals.
Log
03:32 hno73 hello all!
03:32 TheMuso Welcome Jason. Nice to have you along.
03:32 jsgotangco hi henrik
=== jgrieves yawns ugg 5 hours of sleep
03:33 TheMuso Hey Henrik.
03:33 jgrieves hi Luke :)
03:33 dholbach hi everybody
03:33 dholbach everybody had a brief glimpse on
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeamMeetingAgenda ?
03:33 jgrieves us low vision people need at least 7 hours of sleep to function properly
=== crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== TheMuso doesn't think it has been updated since he added a few things..
03:33 dholbach who proposed the first topic?
=== mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:34 TheMuso I think that may have been stuff from last meeting.
03:34 dholbach oh yes
03:34 dholbach we proceed to the 2nd item
03:34 dholbach TheMuso: that's yours, right?
03:34 TheMuso But did we talk about use cases much, or look into them?
03:35 TheMuso Should we now?
03:35 dholbach we can do that as well
03:35 TheMuso Ok.
03:35 jsgotangco hrmm
03:35 dholbach jsgotangco: ...? :)
03:35 hno73 Oh, sorry. I think I proposed most of the points without name :p
03:35 jsgotangco i like the idea of #2
03:35 jsgotangco im looking at the site now
03:36 hno73 1-5 really :)
03:36 dholbach hno73: don't worry :)
Jason Grieves, who is fortunate enough to be present at this meeting has been writing
03:36 TheMuso some documentation about using Ubuntu with the various accessibility apps. You can
grab a copy from http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility. It is a text file.
03:36 jsgotangco i have a windows partition i'll experiment on this tommorow
=== zakame [n=zak@ubuntu/member/zakame] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:36 TheMuso I think we ort to get one or two people to look over it, and wiki it. It is a great
starting point.
03:37 zakame hello all
03:37 TheMuso jgrieves: Anything you want to add, please do so, or feel free to correct me if I am
wrong.
=== jsgotangco bookmarks them
03:37 jgrieves agreed, i'd like to get some people to work with me on it
03:37 dholbach is it kind of a test plan?
03:37 jgrieves we need pictures, more step by step
03:37 dholbach or a howto?
03:37 jgrieves descriptions of each preference and how it affects the system
03:37 dholbach or maybe we could use it for both
03:37 dholbach jgrieves: it looks fairly comprehensive
03:38 jsgotangco it does
03:38 jgrieves dholbach there wasn't much on th eweb, besides Sun's accessiblity guide
03:38 jsgotangco i can start moving this to code
03:38 dholbach *nod*
03:38 jgrieves which was difficult for me to use
03:38 dholbach it looks cool, maybe something for the doc-team too
=== flint [n=flint@69-164-120-179.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:38 jgrieves because i need to know what was good for low vision people
03:38 dholbach jgrieves: well done
03:38 jgrieves i had to filter through their stuff, and eventually decided to just write my own
03:39 TheMuso Yeah thats right. The docs for GNOME accessibility are either very hard to find, or
out of date.
03:39 jsgotangco pretty much
03:39 dholbach *nod*
03:39 TheMuso ,pst;u
03:39 TheMuso mostly
03:39 jgrieves there are some updated items that we can use for user cases
03:39 jgrieves such as full screen magnification, which i have tested for a couple of hours
03:39 jgrieves which actually works much better than split screen
03:39 dholbach i can send a reminder (wiki-ing it) and the link to the mailing list later
03:39 TheMuso Ok.
03:40 jsgotangco nice
03:40 hno73 Yeah. It looks great!
03:40 TheMuso jgrieves: Have you a wiki/launchpad account?
03:40 jsgotangco i'll start moving this to source too
03:40 jgrieves yep Luke
03:40 TheMuso Good.
03:40 hno73 It would be cool to put it on-line and perhaps persuaded he abilitynet people to put
it on their site too
03:40 hno73 as an alternative to the Windows guides
03:40 jsgotangco yes
03:41 jgrieves yeah it really needs to be dynamic by beling able to click links and such
03:41 hno73 before you know it it will be on the BBC computer help pages
03:41 jgrieves i.e. in low vision section and want to get ot gnopernicus
03:41 TheMuso I noticed that some instructions used the terminal. Should we consider putting
instructions in for using synaptec?
03:41 mpt the Windows guides are boringly exhaustive :-)
03:41 hno73 mpt: you think too much so?
03:41 dholbach added it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/Links as well
03:41 kjcole I've dug up another possible resource: National Center for Accessible Media (NCAM) at:
http://ncam.wgbh.org/
03:41 TheMuso Cool.
03:42 mpt hno73, yeah, last time I looked there were about 30 pages, about 90% being exactly the
same in each one
03:42 dholbach i forgot... which agenda point are we on :)
03:42 TheMuso AFAIK 2.
03:42 dholbach ah ok, 2nd, right
03:42 jsgotangco lol
03:42 hno73 mpt: cool. I'll feed that back to them (or we'll just make ours better)
03:43 linbetwin hello, everyone! Can anyone participate in this meeting? Hello, Jason! you're the only
one I know here
03:43 dholbach linbetwin: sure, it's public
03:43 dholbach linbetwin: welcome
03:43 jsgotangco linbetwin, welcome
03:43 jgrieves greetings
03:43 TheMuso linbetwin: welcome. You are a work collegue of Jason's?
03:43 TheMuso Either way, thanks for joining us.
03:43 linbetwin no. I wrote to him about gnopernicus
03:44 TheMuso Ah right.
03:44 dholbach ok, so we agreed on wiki-ing it and maybe feeding it to the doc-team (jerome)? :)
03:44 jsgotangco shove it to me
03:44 dholbach and maybe use it as a starting point for testplans
03:44 TheMuso Note that this is for breezy I think.
03:44 TheMuso the doc that is.
03:44 jsgotangco the doc looks a bit terse but can be improved
03:44 TheMuso Yeah, a little fleshing out probably. Thats what I thought.
03:45 jgrieves jsgotangco agreed
03:45 dholbach shall we proceed the the 3rd item?
03:45 jsgotangco okay
03:45 TheMuso Fine with me.
=== jsgotangco will adopt this
03:45 dholbach ok
03:45 dholbach next up are bounty ideas
=== jgrieves is adopted
03:45 dholbach hno73: you mean, real bounties? like paying for them and everything?
03:46 TheMuso What is X-10 support anyone?
03:46 hno73 dholbach: yeah, we can propose them to the pool right?
03:46 jsgotangco hmmm
03:46 jbailey TheMuso, X10 gear I'm familiar with is for home automation.
03:46 hno73 There is/was a dormat AT bounty in there that was too vague
03:46 jsgotangco should we do specs?
03:46 jsgotangco jbailey, that evil X10 camera thing that started it all?
03:46 TheMuso hno73: It was way to big a task.
03:47 jsgotangco X10 is quite old but reliable
03:47 dholbach we need specs for those, but we need to split up, what could be TODO items for the
team
03:47 hno73 I'v got some X10 hardware I can send to anyone who wants to try
03:47 jbailey jsgotangco, Dunno. The X10 stuff I used was for remote power cycling based on serial
commands.
03:47 jsgotangco yeah
03:47 jbailey jsgotangco, That was about a decade ago, though.
03:47 jsgotangco that's the X10 alright
03:47 hno73 TheMuso: You mean the one from 6 months ago, or whatever, yeah
03:47 TheMuso hno73: Yes.
03:48 jbailey jsgotangco, It's how we did remote power control on the FSFs servers. =)
03:48 jsgotangco hno73, linux has good X10 support?
03:48 jsgotangco ohhh
03:48 dholbach can anybody tell me, what we need to do about x10 in ubuntu?
03:48 jsgotangco control appliances via ubuntu?
03:49 flint note that X10 has two standards, the old and the new.
03:49 jsgotangco the only X10 i have ever used is a camera
03:49 flint X10 version 1 is an ac line type of unidirectional addressable power control
03:49 kjcole flint, how new is "new"?
03:49 dholbach we should first investigate, if there's existing code, we could use
03:49 flint X10 version 2 is bidirectional and way better
03:49 hno73 so you can use it to switch on lights, open doors, etc. cool stuff for mobility
impairment folks
03:50 hno73 attaches with a box to your serial port
03:50 flint new is my version of new. EG IBM MVS is "new"
03:50 TheMuso There is an x10 package in breezy and would be in dapper as well.
03:50 hno73 it's fairly cheap comodity stuff
=== jsgotangco should try that x10 camera downstairs
03:50 flint hno73, and not all that reliable...
03:50 kjcole flint, then I'm afraid to ask how old "old" is.
03:50 hno73 there are some simple CLI tools for running the switches
03:51 jsgotangco cli...
03:51 dholbach hno73: do you have experience, how well the package works?
03:51 hno73 flint: how's that? you mean with interference on the el-net?
03:51 kjcole jsgotangco, is that a question? If so Command Line Interface.
As I wrote to Jason, I'm trying to use gnopernicus+gnome-mag, but it only follows the
text cursor in the rerminal and gedit and it shows some ugly black patches when moved.
03:51 linbetwin This does not happen in kmag, but kmag doesn't follow text editing at all. I tried to
make a demo using istanbul but it didn't work. Is there any hope that will improve in
Dapper?
03:51 hno73 I think the simple package works well, but the gui stuff is more random
03:52 jsgotangco kjcole, nope...i meant i'm not really into cli for this stuff...
03:52 flint I used X10 years ago under windo$e...
03:52 hno73 See: http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/
03:52 flint I will look at it under breezy...
03:52 dholbach linbetwin: if we write bugreports to the gnome folks, then probably
03:52 jgrieves linbetwin we may have some solutions for you in a bit, Luke is working on a new
gnome-mag
03:52 hno73 Linux Home Automation project
03:52 flint gotcha...
03:52 jsgotangco ohhh
03:52 jgrieves linbetwin i'll ping you after meeting
03:52 TheMuso jgrieves: You referring to the XDamage bug?
03:52 kjcole jsgotangco, ah.
03:53 jgrieves Luke yes
03:53 TheMuso Well nothing more on the bug front has happened yet.
03:53 dholbach hno73: we should investigate in the links there to know, if there's software we can
include? does that make sense?
03:53 jgrieves may be able to get linbetwin to test package?
03:54 linbetwin sure, what package?
03:55 hno73 dholbach: sure. I'm sure there is. When I say flaky, I mean, written in Perl, kludgy
user interface, etc.
03:55 dholbach *nod* better than nothing :)
03:55 dholbach something to start from :)
03:55 hno73 It might be better to take the CLI tools and make a very simple and pretty interface
in python
03:55 dholbach i added it to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/TODO
03:55 hno73 ... for example. just ideas
03:56 dholbach what about "high visibility themes"?
03:56 TheMuso I have been talking back and forth between jgrieves and dholbach about themes stuff,
particularly mouse cursors.
03:56 flint hno73, the X10 version one el-net had some problem finding the "zero cross" all the
time. Let me revisit this.
03:56 hno73 I don't think we even have large mouse cursors ATM do we?
03:57 jgrieves dholbach i covered some of that in guide
03:57 TheMuso hno73: xcursor-themes
03:57 TheMuso But could do with a bit of work
03:57 dholbach jgrieves: ok, cool
03:57 jgrieves yep and a few others i found like a high contrast cursor package
03:57 TheMuso One other problem is that the cursor returns to normal size when the mouse shows
FireFox loading a page.
03:57 dholbach maybe we could have a accessibility meta-package, which pulls in stuff that might be
useful?
03:57 jgrieves we could develop xcursor-accessibiliy-theme
03:57 dholbach if we could decide on software, i'd take care of it
03:57 hno73 TheMuso: right, so that 'bit of work' is what needs doing
03:58 jgrieves dholbach yeah exactly what i was thinking
03:58 TheMuso hno73: I think so yeah.
03:58 dholbach cool
03:58 hno73 there are bits floating around on kde-look, etc
03:58 dholbach i'll add it to todo
03:58 hno73 but we need to bring it together in one place
03:58 hno73 Icons with good contrast
03:58 hno73 large X-cursors, etc
03:58 TheMuso Yeah. A large black cursor should be created as well.
03:58 jgrieves hno73 the accessibilty themes are pretty good
03:58 jgrieves just no cursors
03:59 hno73 jgrieves: OK, cool. so that's 90% done then :)
03:59 jgrieves if someone wanted to tackle making an ubuntu accessibility theme
03:59 dholbach it'd be great, if say a11y-visual would pull
in gnome-mag and xcursor-themes - does that make sense?
04:00 jsgotangco can we package those themes or at least the settings?
04:00 jgrieves there isn't anything like that of course, reverting to gnome-accessibiiity make it
look like gnome simple theme
04:00 TheMuso dholbach: Yeah but gnome-mag needs a front-end to use it, i.e gnopernicus.
04:00 dholbach TheMuso: yeah... i was just thinking loudly
04:00 dholbach :)
04:00 jgrieves what about an entire accessibity meta package?
04:00 TheMuso right.
04:00 dholbach jgrieves: exactly
04:00 jgrieves brings in everything
04:00 dholbach i added it to the todo page
04:01 TheMuso But what if the user doesn't want speech stuff for example.
04:01 jgrieves turned off by default?
04:01 linbetwin exactly
04:01 TheMuso What about if the user wants it?
04:01 kjcole Speaking of themes: When making icons, make them as unambiguous as possible. (I don't
know what that means practically, but consider it as icons are made.)
04:01 hno73 So now we need a control panel :)
04:01 TheMuso My point is, a metapackage is not the sollution for everybody.
04:01 jgrieves Luke, uninstallt?
04:01 dholbach we can have different meta packages
04:02 TheMuso Yeah perhaps.
04:02 dholbach that's why i suggested a11y-visual
04:02 TheMuso Yeah that would be ok.
04:02 jgrieves some low vision users want a magnifier and a screen reader
04:02 hno73 Yeah, I think 4-5 metapavkages are a good idea
04:02 dholbach DesktopTeam/MetaPackage
04:02 hno73 they can overlap of course
04:02 dholbach we can use that for discussion
04:02 TheMuso Indeed.
04:02 jgrieves we just don't want to overwhelm the choices
04:02 jgrieves with someoen who might not be familiar with AT
04:02 dholbach i'm happy to prepare those packages once we have an agreement
04:02 kjcole For example, I find a magnifying glass for zoom and a pair of binoculars for search to
be ambiguous and interchangable... sort of.
04:03 kjcole (I'm not saying those appear in Ubuntu anywhere, but I know I've seen them somewhere
in M$ Windoze apps.)
04:04 hno73 dholbach: cool. I'll do some thinking on DesktopTeam/MetaPackage later as well
04:04 dholbach hno73: ROCK
04:04 dholbach we really need to investigate more, if there's other software/themes/... out there, we
want to have
04:04 dholbach this is the right time in the release cycle to get them included and tested
04:05 dholbach so we have them for dapper
04:05 dholbach we can test the test-livecds (if you don't want to upgrade to dapper)
04:05 dholbach oh hang on... those won't be on the testcds
04:05 TheMuso dholbach: Derivative.
04:05 jgrieves this would resolve the gnopernicus w/o gnome-mag?
04:06 dholbach yeah, but this takes time - stuff has to be packaged and uploaded anyways
04:06 dholbach and this is something, i can do *now*
04:06 TheMuso True.
04:06 jgrieves i've answered that 2-3 times on gnome-accessibilty and boards
04:06 hno73 There is also the vmware option for testing
04:06 linbetwin i can test on dapper
04:06 dholbach livecd + installing universe packages over the net (synaptic) should be fine too
04:07 dholbach so if you propose new software, i can try to get it packaged and uploaded
04:07 dholbach but i need to know what :)
04:07 jgrieves anyone tried emacspeak?
04:07 dholbach i opened http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/NewSoftware for that
04:07 TheMuso jgrieves: I personally don't think emacspeak should be considered for new users just
yet.
04:07 dholbach (those pages are all linked from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam )
04:08 jgrieves Luke is it in repopsitories at least? i'm thinking of power users
04:08 jgrieves i'm not even sure i''m "power" enough to use emacs :)
04:08 dholbach jgrieves: it is
04:08 TheMuso It is in breezy, so it should be in dapper.
04:08 jgrieves great thanks
04:09 dholbach so we agree on looking for accessibility-related software and reporting it on the
mailing list?
04:09 TheMuso For themes/cursors? Yeah.
04:09 dholbach ^---- *please* :)
04:09 jgrieves yes
04:09 kjcole dholbach, should my SpecialNeeds page be somehow moved into the AccessibilityTeam
tree?
04:09 hno73 yes
04:09 dholbach kjcole: seems to make sense
04:09 dholbach cool
04:09 dholbach shall we proceed to SpeechSynthesisProposal?
04:10 TheMuso I am happy to if others are.
04:10 jgrieves sure, but I think Luke should pass out his home made cookies first
04:10 dholbach hehe
=== TheMuso passes out cookies to everyone.
=== jsgotangco [n=jsg@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:10 hno73 kjcole: can you look at using it to fles out
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTesting/UserGroups ?
04:11 dholbach hno73: SpeechSynthesisProposal was yours?
04:12 jsgotangco festival not working good enough?
04:12 hno73 btw, I spoke with someone today who feels that Orca is about 1 year from being
useable, so that may get a low priority still
04:12 kjcole hno73, that looks like a good place for it.
04:12 TheMuso hno73: The problem with Orca is there is no interface.
04:12 hno73 dholbach: It's Luke's ideas, but with critical comments from me :)
04:12 TheMuso jsgotangco: It is a lot more sticky than that.
04:12 dholbach hno73: i'm ready to package and include it anyway
04:13 hno73 dholbach: yay, beeding edge!
04:13 jsgotangco i see
04:13 dholbach hno73: i feel that it should be exposed to people, so upstream can get feedback from
users
04:13 jsgotangco true
04:13 hno73 dholbach: yep
04:13 dholbach hno73: but we don't have to rely on it anyways
04:13 jgrieves agreed i would like to do some testing with it
04:13 TheMuso I won't repeat myself. Read that page, the top part at least to understand where I am
coming from in regards to speech synthesis.
04:13 hno73 right, but the more we push it the faster it will grow
04:14 TheMuso hno73: IMO it will end up being better than Gnopernicus.
04:14 jgrieves it has the ability to script correct? gnopernicus does not
04:14 hno73 TheMuso: Orca, you mean?
04:14 TheMuso jgrieves: Correct. It is also getting gnome-mag support as well.
04:15 jgrieves that's what make Jaws very powerful, if I understand corrrectly
04:15 TheMuso hno73: Yes.
04:15 jgrieves TheMuso i was un-aware of that, great
04:15 hno73 and it scripts in python, which is perfect for us
04:15 TheMuso Indeed.
=== jsgotangco reads
04:16 dholbach :)
04:16 TheMuso hno73: You will find that I have placed comments under your comments/queries in the
synthesis proposal page.
04:16 flint dare we groach the holy grail here, speach recognition?
04:16 mpt rofl
04:16 jgrieves heh
04:16 hno73 oh, I just now scrolled down :)
04:17 jsgotangco wow that was a mouthful
04:17 jsgotangco but nicely written
04:18 dholbach the kernel discussion (speakup) should be taken with BenC
04:18 flint oops /groach/approach/ heh
04:18 TheMuso Yeah. I will bet he won't like the code either.
04:19 hno73 can alternative kernels go in Universe?
04:20 dholbach hmmmmmmm
04:20 TheMuso They could, but someone/people would have to rebuild them whenever security updates
for mainline came out which is probably not a problem.
04:20 dholbach alternative kernels are problematic
04:20 dholbach because they require a lot of tending
04:20 TheMuso dholbach: That is also true.
04:20 dholbach (for each security fix, ...)
04:21 TheMuso dholbach: But if it is only speakup we are introducing, it is just a matter of getting
mainline, adding speakup, changing name etc, and rebuild/upload.
04:21 hno73 Yeah, I think we're looking at Launchpad features a year from now for that
04:21 dholbach TheMuso: generally, yes
04:22 TheMuso Luckily, speakup can be built as modules. If we can just get it included into the
mainline, it won't get in the way for anybody who doesn't need it.
04:22 dholbach maybe we should have the discussion on ubuntu-devel@
04:22 dholbach so everybody else (we don't have here) could have his/her say
04:23 hno73 sounds good
04:23 TheMuso The only problem with inclusion is that speakup is maintained in CVS of all places.
04:23 jgrieves if the kernel folks at ubuntu are anything like at IBM, they dont like anyone touching
their kernel :)
04:23 TheMuso But it does keep up with current kernel development.
04:24 flint I am interested in the connection between IBM and speakup, and will look into it
offline later
04:24 TheMuso Anybody else got any thoughts/suggestions? I understand that hno73 wants to break it
down, but it is hard to do so because of the nature of the beast.
04:24 dholbach flint: thank you
04:24 TheMuso There is no connection between IBM and speakup AFAIK.
04:24 TheMuso I am on the speakup list and there has been no mention of such things.
04:24 dholbach i can only repeat myself: if there's something to package, so we can try it out, i can
do that
04:25 jsgotangco go dholbach
04:25 TheMuso dholbach: If it si speech, it is my baby. :)
04:25 jgrieves sorry for the confusion flint
04:25 hno73 TheMuso: I will look at it again. These are complex questions.Let's continue on the
wiki and mailing list
04:25 TheMuso Ok good idea.
04:25 dholbach ok
04:25 dholbach on the orca item: i will package it
04:25 flint TheMuso, gotcha, I thought that IBM had donated a lota the code to speakup
04:25 TheMuso It is one of those things that requires long explanations in emails etc, or face to
face talk.
04:26 hno73 ok, on to item 4
04:26 dholbach TheMuso: i think the spec/wikipage is a good start for discussion
04:26 TheMuso dholbach: As well as the list.
04:26 jgrieves anyway we are going to make the instlal more accessible?
04:26 jgrieves for low vision?
04:26 dholbach jgrieves: i'm not aware of that at the moment
04:27 jgrieves posted @ list in resoponse to speakup
04:27 dholbach if so, we need a proposal
04:27 hno73 UbuntuExpress could help there
04:27 TheMuso It is a LOT of work.
04:27 jgrieves its just tough for my friend steve who has 20/1700 who wants to install
04:27 TheMuso hno73: Yes, but there is still d-i to consider.
04:27 jgrieves and i dont particuarly like having my nose on the screen either :)
04:27 dholbach hno73: ++
04:27 hno73 once you are booted in the live session, you can use a highviz theme
04:28 jgrieves and a magnifier?
04:28 TheMuso Ok how will a low vision user manage to read the blue and grey/white d-i screens?
04:28 hno73 The great boot vs. desktop debate :)
04:28 TheMuso hno73: But it is getting to that state that could be a problem.
04:28 dholbach we need a proposal on how to fix that
04:29 TheMuso There is only one console magnification tool I know of, and it aint that great.
04:29 hno73 Yeah it needs to be separate proposals and have more detail, but we sre bgetting there
:)
04:29 jgrieves could u use speach for d-i stuff?
04:29 TheMuso Yes.
04:30 dholbach that's something we should discuss on the list too (once we have a proposal), because
the people who would do the actual work are not here
04:30 jgrieves i mean if its just ininital stuff, i know steve woudln't mind, that would be pretty
slick too
04:30 TheMuso dholbach: I am willing to help with speech installation/d-i stuff.
04:30 TheMuso I really should spec out my thoughts and theories on it.
04:30 jgrieves ok dholbach sounds good
04:30 dholbach that's cool
04:30 jgrieves dholbach accessibity-list?
04:30 jgrieves accessibility
04:31 dholbach yeah, and once we know where we want to go, we move it to ubuntu-devel@
04:31 jgrieves ok, Luke are you going to handle both angles on that?
04:31 TheMuso I will write my thoughts into a proposal/spec in the next day or so.
04:31 TheMuso jgrieves: Well I haven't seen UbuntuExpress yet.
04:31 dholbach i think that's something we should keep more in mind during our conversations: 1) what
we need to spec, 2) who could do it, and 3) what we can do just now
04:32 dholbach TheMuso: nobody has :)
04:32 TheMuso I am only concerned with d-i atm, because the GNOME stuff will fall into place quit
easily.
04:32 jgrieves oh, i haven't either, that's why i was hoping it was more of your experise :)
04:32 hno73 TheMuso: do you think it's possible to split ghat page into at least 2 proposals
though?
04:32 hno73 TheMuso: ok, cool
04:32 TheMuso hno73: Yes I think so. Leave it with me.
04:33 hno73 alright. pt 4
04:33 TheMuso What would access.ubuntu.com be useful for?
04:33 hno73 If this page ws working now http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8003/ubuntu/
04:34 jgrieves docuemtnation, accessibility forums?
04:34 jgrieves blogs, development?
04:34 hno73 It would show the same multi-theme functionality as this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/
04:34 hno73 a place to build community and momentum
04:34 TheMuso Right.
04:35 hno73 and draw in AT people from accross the FOSS world :)
04:35 jgrieves agreed the gnome-accessibility page is pretty bad
04:35 jgrieves imo
04:35 jsgotangco very bad imo
04:35 hno73 Sun has a good AT team, but no major distro has a deducated user-driven project
04:35 hno73 with mailing lists, forums, help pages, etc.
04:36 TheMuso hno73: And even if we do this, I doubt that they will try to do the same.
04:36 dholbach i think it's a nice idea, although i think that the team should be better organised,
before "we go live"
04:36 jgrieves with ubuntu being pushed into schools with edubuntu, i think AT will become critical
with students iwth disabilties
04:36 TheMuso Sun's team is more developer focused.
04:36 hno73 It's sort of sticking our flag in the ground
04:36 TheMuso dholbach: I agree.
=== _mvo_ [n=egon@ip181.135.1511I-CUD12K-01.ish.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:36 dholbach i don't want to be off-putting (if that's the word)
04:37 jgrieves dholbach I agree
04:37 TheMuso Not at all.
04:37 dholbach but i'll get back to that in pt 6
04:37 hno73 dholbach: no, I see your point. I'm happy to develop this non-live for a few months
04:37 dholbach cool
=== dholbach hugs hno73
04:37 dholbach :)
04:37 hno73 we can create content in the current wiki, etc
04:37 dholbach yeah
04:37 dholbach i like the idea
04:38 hno73 Timing is important :)
04:38 dholbach absolutely
04:38 dholbach point 5?
04:38 TheMuso I have just had another docs idea, but will bring it up later on the list/wiki.
04:38 hno73 perhaps a month or so before dapper, when actually have some decent packages
04:39 hno73 ok, pt. 5
04:39 jsgotangco shove all the docs to me :)
04:39 TheMuso jsgotangco: It is not actual writing as such, well it is, but it isn't if you know
what I mean.
04:39 dholbach massachusetts :)
04:39 jsgotangco yes
04:39 TheMuso I will explain it later. A big email is needed for it. :)
04:39 dholbach flint will be eager to hear abou it
04:40 dholbach so who knows a bit more about the massachusetts situation?
=== jsgotangco raises hand
=== _jason [n=jason@dhcp0534.hrn.resnet.group.UPENN.EDU] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
On the KDE accessibility list today, a member of the KDE a11y team posted a summary of
04:40 TheMuso the meeting that he was at with others involved in the whole MA ODF mess. The users
weren't very interested in UNIX/Linux/GNOME/KDE accessibility. They don't want to
change.
04:41 TheMuso I don't have permission to post it here, but I can ask, and put it up somewhere.
04:41 TheMuso Even though Office 12 will force change on them.
04:41 dholbach ok, so no ubuntu massachusetts love for now
04:41 hno73 most people don't want to change, but free CDs that 'just work' can help
04:41 jgrieves haha
04:41 TheMuso Yes, but what office suite can we back that works? There are none that work perfectly
yet.
04:42 jgrieves Luke, explain office 12?
04:42 Riddell TheMuso: you could link to it
04:42 Riddell http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-accessibility&m=113391263909828&w=2
=== kjcole shows age:
04:43 TheMuso Riddell: Ah yes, of course.
04:43 hno73 OK, this was just a random idea for how we might make a splash, but perhaps we should
let it pass
There was an old TV commercial in the states which had the tag line "You're soaking in
04:43 kjcole it"... (I can elaborate later) but the point is Windoze users are already migrating
slooowly. Although Linux isn't accepted yet, Firefox, Thunderbird, The GIMP and
OpenOffice are all starting to get a lot of airplay on Windoze boxes.
04:43 hno73 We have more technical fish to fry ATM :)
04:44 dholbach hno73: technical fish :)
04:44 dholbach but i agree :)
04:44 TheMuso So do I.
=== hno73 pimps TheOpenCD ;)
=== jsgotangco pimps it too
04:44 kjcole hno73: Exactly.
04:44 hno73 OK, pt 6?
04:44 dholbach ok
04:44 dholbach i created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam
04:44 flint dholbach, thanks for the info let me persue it from here...
04:44 dholbach errr made changes to it
04:44 kjcole (Also The Orchard)
04:45 dholbach i think we as a team need a bit more organisation
=== jsgotangco pimps the orchard powered by moin
04:45 hno73 wooo
04:45 dholbach i don't want to be off-putting (as i said), but i think we need to focus more, on what
we can actually do or change
04:45 TheMuso dholbach: Yeah indeed.
04:45 jsgotangco start cracking a whip to have focus?
04:46 dholbach that's why i added some pages below "Organisation", where i'd like you to add
everything you can think of, to make the situation better
04:46 hno73 Agreed
04:46 TheMuso We have done so much talking, and haven't really resolved anything conclusively yet.
04:46 kjcole dholbach: Organization? We don' need no steeeenking organization!
04:46 dholbach jsgotangco: not at all
=== dholbach hugs kjcole
04:46 dholbach kjcole: we need some rebels too, of course ;)
04:46 jsgotangco dholbach: a big stick sometimes helps
04:46 jsgotangco :D
04:46 zakame oooh
04:46 dholbach but i'm happy with our results so far
04:46 dholbach this is our 2nd meeting
04:46 hno73 So, the wiki pages are a bit of a mess
04:47 dholbach and we were able to cover a lot of ground (in discussions) already
04:47 jsgotangco there is very big interest
04:47 TheMuso Yeah, but we need to get some plans in stone by the next 1 or 2 meetings at the
latest.
04:47 dholbach absolutely
04:47 hno73 shall we agree to move them all into that new structure?
04:47 dholbach so writing specs, breaking them up into small todo items would be great
04:47 kjcole dholbach: Having the sub-pages makes things easier to find. I like it.
04:47 hno73 we should be quite harsh on old material
04:47 dholbach and if we run into trouble, we should start writing upstream bug reports and monitor
them
04:47 dholbach kjcole: thank you
04:48 dholbach hno73: you did an awesome job... we shouldn't purge them
=== jbailey_ [n=jbailey@modemcable139.249-203-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:48 TheMuso me and hno73 were playing with the idea of an a11y team about 6-12 months ago, but
never really got it going till now.
04:49 jsgotangco nice
04:49 kjcole TheMuso: Critical mass.
=== asw waves to accessibility team. A friend of mine finished law at Harvard. She has run/founded
various disability rights non-profits.
04:49 hno73 dholbach is the super team-building guy :)
04:49 asw Are you guys into touch with Massachusetts?
04:49 asw (state government?)
04:49 TheMuso asw: We do know about it yes.
04:49 asw yes - but are you talking to them directly?
04:49 TheMuso The problem is, there is nothing realy ready right now that can be presented as a
perfectly usable option.
04:50 jgrieves exactly
i'm happy to serve as a proxy from the team to ubnutu and the packages; as you saw...
04:50 dholbach i don't have as much time as i'd like to have (i.e. didnt write the meeting minutes
yet), so i need advise on what to package, which fix to upload
04:50 asw TheMuso - Mark (Shuttleworth) or Mako or somebody high level?
04:50 linbetwin I could help with the wiki. I've got a launchpad account and I can organize Jason's
documentation in the wiki.
04:50 dholbach but i think we can really get a11y into a good shape
04:50 TheMuso dholbach: Happy to help.
04:50 dholbach TheMuso: thanks for your efforts
04:50 TheMuso asw: It is a matter of the tools not being usable for the masses yet.
04:50 jgrieves linbetwin i beleive jsgotangco will be working on that?
04:51 asw TheMuso - well, I might help get you guys some funding for bounties.
04:51 asw Would that help?
04:51 TheMuso asw: Yes that would greatly help.
04:51 hno73 asw: yes!
04:51 dholbach asw: we already agreed on writing detailed specs first :))
04:51 linbetwin jgrieves: ok
04:51 dholbach who didnt sign up for the mailing list yet? :)
04:51 TheMuso dholbach: Feel free to contact me if you need help. I am always on IRC< and you have
my email address.
04:51 asw ok - just email me await @ genetics.med.harvard.edu when you have some spec
ready. I'll try and make it happen. I'm almost always on IRC.
04:51 dholbach TheMuso: thanks
04:52 jsgotangco great
04:52 dholbach i will write a quick summary of the meeting (i made notes of our decisions) this time
:)))
04:52 hno73 dholbach: so, in your oppinion is there anything in our wiki pages that qualifies as a
decent spec yet?
04:52 TheMuso dholbach: If I am idoling/sleeping, I should get it when I next check my IRC logs.
04:52 hno73 Or is it still to vague?
=== TheMuso is going to work on the speech proposals.
04:52 dholbach hno73: we should make a list of our Specs and discuss them on the mailing list (review
them as a team again, before proposing them)
04:53 dholbach AccessibilityTeam/Specs?
04:53 hno73 right
=== dholbach creates it
04:53 TheMuso damn you are quick.
04:53 jsgotangco what do you we do with the other specs that were not touched during ubz?
04:53 hno73 asw: cool. I'll email you.
04:53 jbailey jsgotangco: They can still be worked on, they just aren't likely to be high enough
priority for Dapper.
04:53 TheMuso Examine them, and see if they can be reworked or included elsewhere I guess.
04:55 hno73 I suspect they need to be focused further
04:55 dholbach ok add all specs to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/Specs - i linked it from
http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam
04:55 hno73 made more realistic in terms of time and effort needed
04:55 dholbach i feel we get better and better, as a team
04:56 dholbach you guys rock!
04:56 hno73 dholbach: cool. We'll scrape the existing pages
04:56 dholbach i'm very happy
04:56 jbailey dholbach: Should they also maybe get linked through launchpad for tracking?
04:56 dholbach jbailey: can we tag them somehow?
04:56 jbailey I think teams can have specs.
04:57 dholbach jbailey: that sounds great
04:57 dholbach i will investigate in that
04:57 dholbach they should turn up here, i guess: https://launchpad.net/people/accessibility/+specs
04:58 kjcole Well, looks like things are wrapping up, and once again, I've missed two hours of paid
work to do Ubuntu stuff. So, time to run. ;-)
04:58 dholbach :)
04:58 TheMuso hahaha
04:58 jsgotangco heh
04:58 dholbach ok, we will track the specs in launchpad instead
04:58 jsgotangco i need not sleep
04:58 dholbach we can use AccessibilityTeam/Specs to add random chat on those specs
04:58 TheMuso Good idea.
04:59 dholbach i updated the wiki page
04:59 TheMuso Shall we defer the decision of next meeting time and day to the list, or shall we take
care of that now?
04:59 kjcole Will move the SpecialNeeds page under the new tree... (and wrap it like a christmas
present).
04:59 dholbach next year?
04:59 hno73 Thanks everyone for being enthusiastic and constructive :)
04:59 dholbach kjcole: thanks for that
04:59 hno73 now comes productive ...
04:59 jgrieves jsgotangco: email about documentation?
04:59 dholbach yeah :)
04:59 jsgotangco hno73: a minute after this is done?
05:00 jsgotangco jgrieves: yeah...
05:00 dholbach yeah, thank you, everybody
05:00 jsgotangco jgrieves: jgotangco@ubuntu.com if you need to correspond
05:00 hno73 jsgotangco: yep
05:00 jgrieves jsgotangco thanks, looking forward to working with you
05:00 TheMuso I am free in two weeks at the same time, but I guess tohers won't be.
05:00 jgrieves works for me
05:00 jsgotangco same here
05:00 dholbach we can discuss next meeting's time on the mailing list, ok?
05:00 hno73 works for me too
05:00 hno73 k
05:01 TheMuso dholbach: Thats fine, on the list.
05:01 dholbach cool
05:01 jsgotangco our LP team needs a cool logo!
05:01 kjcole 2005.12.21? Same time? Works for me.
05:01 dholbach !
05:01 TheMuso Some of us can't see it. Don't bother. :)
05:01 jsgotangco muhahaha
05:01 jbailey jsgotangco: A big sad face. It can slowly turn into a happy face as the situation
gets better. =)
05:01 jgrieves TheMuso: lol
05:02 dholbach we have 18 members on the mailing list already!
05:02 jgrieves it better be huge whatever itis
05:02 kjcole The Scream (and we can add audio for those who cannot see it)
05:02 hno73 a cool logo and a signature tune
05:02 TheMuso hahahahaha
05:02 jsgotangco jeezz
05:02 hno73 ok, I think we're done :)
05:02 jbailey First spec: "Making the Launchpad accessibility team pages accessible." =)
05:03 TheMuso hahaha.
05:03 jgrieves jbailey pffft who needs accessibility, come on
05:03 hno73 yeah, we need a cool bug #1
05:03 dholbach i have another idea: how about everybody adds an idea to the test plan on every day
until christmas? :)
05:03 TheMuso I might approach BenC about speakup soonish. Depends on whether he is busy with other
kernel stuff. :)
05:03 dholbach we'd be done with the test plan until christmas
05:03 jsgotangco bug #1 stop massachusettes?
05:03 TheMuso lol
05:04 jsgotangco the 12 days of a11y before christmas?
05:04 hno73 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeam/TestPlans
05:04 hno73 cool
05:04 jgrieves on the first day of Christmmas, TheMuso prepared for me, a gnome-mag package...
05:05 hno73 Let's be specific
05:05 dholbach haha :)
05:05 TheMuso jgrieves: Good one.
05:05 jsgotangco 5 braile keyboards....
05:05 TheMuso 4 speech synths
05:05 jgrieves 4 speech synthesizers
05:05 jsgotangco haha
05:05 hno73 stealing ideas from other projects, ,like gnome, is alowed
05:05 jgrieves TheMuso ROFL
05:05 dholbach you guys are great!
05:05 dholbach thanks everybody... time to go back home againMeetingLogs/Accessibility_2005-12-07 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:16:46 by localhost)