20070213
Summary
Until launchpad sends out expiration emails, the CC secretary will take care of reminding people to renew Ubuntu membership. Members of teams that are member of the ubuntumembers team do not need to renew their membership, since they will still be members by inclusion. View More.
The following people are nominated for positions on the community council. Voting starts on monday, feb 19 (if no technical issues delay this) and 3 out of these 5 people will join the community council. Colin Watson will step down from the council, making the number of council members six. View More.
- Daniel Holbach
- Matthew East
- Mike Basinger
- Corey Burger
- Jerome Gotangco
The members of the forums council pointed out that there may be conflicts of interest when Mike (who is also on the forums council) joins the community council. The current proposal to solve this, is that someone who is member of 2 councils cannot vot twice on the same matter and will have to recuse in the council that's higher up in the hierarchy. For example, Mike has to recuse on forums issues and Daniel will have to recuse on MOTU matters that are escalated to the community council. View More.
Elizabeth Bevilacqua was added as administrator for the ubuntu-women team on launchpad to overcome the lack of administrators now that the current ones have not been around in a while. A mail was sent to the current administrators and if no reply to that mail is received within reasonable time, the sysadmins will take care of giving other members of the ubuntu-women team access to the ubuntu-women website. View More.
The Venezuelan LoCoTeam is welcomed as official LoCoTeam. View More.
Memberships
Log
01:00 Seveas The agnda for today is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda 01:00 Seveas Hopefully the meeting will start soon 01:00 Seveas cjwatson, elmo: ping 01:01 amachu ok 01:01 elmo I'm here 01:01 nocturn Hi guys 01:01 Seveas elmo, welcome! === Hobbsee wonders when a new CC will be chosen? 01:02 dinda Seveas - I'm/ we're here with the Ubuntu-Women's Project 01:02 Seveas Hobbsee, Soon(tm) 01:02 Seveas Hobbsee, as in Soon(tm) 01:04 amachu ShankarGanesh: hi Shankar Ganesh also represents Ubuntu Tamil Team 01:04 Seveas amachu, is tamilteam on the agenda? 01:04 mako greetings 01:05 Seveas were 2/3 there with CC availability 01:05 Seveas unless I missed cjwatson somehow 01:05 amachu Seveas: I have applied for Membership 01:05 dinda oh, and I have vidoe of him singing too! 01:05 mako i'm making coffe right now :) 01:08 elmo sabdfl's apparently on his way... 01:08 Seveas elmo, very nice! I thought he was not able to make it 01:09 cjwatson hi, sorry 01:10 Seveas cjwatson, elmo, mako: shall we get startd once mako has coffee or dowe wait for mark? 01:11 nocturn Seveas: I hope I can stay (I'm at work) 01:11 elmo if colin's happy to be part of the meeting (I thought we'd let him off of CC duties - he did resign after all), we may as well get started. we have quorum and Mark can catch up 01:11 gnomefreak elmo Seveas cjwatson mako if im not around i would like to say that Admiral_Chicago (freddy) has been doing alot of bugs, wikis, and alot of work with the mozilla-team (im sure a few others will be here to cheer also from that team) 01:11 nocturn So excuse me if I have to leave during the meeting... 01:11 Seveas gnomefreak, noted, thanks! 01:12 Seveas elmo, ah sorry, didn't know that yet 01:13 cjwatson elmo: I can if need be, but if you're happy with just three for today I'd certainly rather be doing other things 01:14 elmo cjwatson: as a compromise, would you mind puppeting as mark till he arrives? 01:15 cjwatson sure 01:15 mako sound good then 01:15 Seveas ok, let's get started 01:15 Seveas Dennis Kaarsemaker 01:15 Seveas Expiring members 01:15 Seveas I took the liberty of extending Paul Sladens membership until the meeting but we should implement a procedure for handling expired members 01:15 sabdfl hi all 01:16 Seveas we were about to start the meting with point one on the agenda 01:16 Seveas so, let's repeat that:
01:16 Seveas Dennis Kaarsemaker 01:16 Seveas Expiring members 01:16 Seveas I took the liberty of extending Paul Sladens membership until the meeting but we should implement a procedure for handling expired members 01:17 Seveas in the mean time Paul Sladen and Brandon Hale have expired (well, their membership), but they are still members via ubuntu-(core-)dev 01:18 mako so i talked to a few LP people in mountainview 01:18 mako about having the pinging and such be automatic 01:19 sabdfl that work is underway, iirc, and may already have landed just not deployed 01:19 mako so that folks that were interested in staying members could just reply to something quickly and stay on board 01:19 mako sabdfl: right 01:19 mako Seveas: so in the mean time, i guess we just do it by hand 01:19 Seveas mako, ok 01:19 mako Seveas: someone sends and email and asks if they want to renew their membership 01:20 sabdfl have pinged salgado who was working on that 01:20 Seveas will renewing involve coming to a meeting? 01:20 mako Seveas: if they do, we renew a year, that's it :) 01:20 mako Seveas: not until they don't respond and we unreg them 01:20 Seveas mako, how about "we're not sure whether you are still contributing" cases 01:21 sabdfl in the case of people who are members via another team, like artwork or edubuntu or kubuntu or -dev, i think we should encourage them just to maintain that angle 01:21 mako Seveas: we trust them to make that distinction on their own 01:21 jsgotangco +1 01:21 sabdfl in other words, minimise the CC interaction, delegating as much as possible 01:21 Seveas sabdfl, so bhale and sladen can stay on expired because they still are in -dev 01:21 mako Seveas: it's not bulletproof, but if we don't trust folks, we shouldn't make them members in the first place 01:21 sabdfl yes 01:21 sladen it depends whether -member is the representation of agreement with an idealogy (the CoC) or a declaration of consistent commitment 01:21 bhale ah, sorry i am sortof here 01:22 sabdfl i think we could get the expiration email to even describe that explicitly 01:22 mako sabdfl: yes, that's right 01:22 mako Seveas: we can work on that text now, and then whatever we come up with probably be send when LP starts doing it 01:22 Seveas mako, sounds good - shall I work on some words and e-mail it to cc@? 01:22 sabdfl "your direct membership in team foobar will expire in 4 days, but because you are a member in the following teams you will effectively stay active in foobar: 01:22 sabdfl - bazbar 01:22 sabdfl - blubar 01:22 sabdfl " 01:23 mako Seveas: sure, or we can put a draft in the wiki 01:23 mako Seveas: whatever works 01:24 Seveas ok, so nothing for that needed in this meeting right now afaics 01:24 Seveas let's move on unless someone objects (respond quickl if you do :))
01:25 Seveas Belinda Lopez 01:25 Seveas Ubuntu Women's Project - Website admins for the domain have been unresponsive, we have no access to the main site, Project leaders have gone missing as well, we want to move forward but make sure previous leaders/admins have had an opportunity to step down. Should we be considered a Loco Team? 01:25 dinda We're here: dinda pleia2 nurseGirl hobbsee 01:25 dinda Greetings all! 01:25 Seveas hi dinda 01:26 sabdfl hey guys 01:26 jsgotangco wha? she's still not a member all this time? 01:26 mako hola 01:26 sabdfl yes, i think the general process should be similar to a loco team 01:26 dinda lol - next meeting I'll be ready! 01:26 Hobbsee jsgotangco: sorry? 01:26 sabdfl who are the website admins and project leaders? 01:26 dinda Pleia2 can give those names? === Hobbsee will admit to not knowing much about the project, nor knowing much about it. from the outside, it looks interesting though. === Hobbsee cant really plead the case as a loco team. 01:27 pleia2 sabdfl: currently Vidya Ayer is the only one who has access to the website, she also controls the Launchpad team and mailing list 01:27 pleia2 she never called herself the project lead, but she pretty much was, she was the one who spearheaded the creation 01:28 mako pleia2: and is unresponsive atm? 01:28 pleia2 mako: the last I heard from her was late December, I have emailed her twice since then 01:28 sabdfl ok, i have contact details for vidya 01:28 mako yeah, so do i 01:28 sabdfl who would be the new leader? 01:28 mako one of us should send an email and if we don't hear back in a week or so, we'll xfer stuff over 01:29 mako sabdfl: should you do it or should i? i'm happy to right now 01:29 sabdfl lp allows us to add admins to the team 01:29 pleia2 I'd volunteer to be the new leader, I've been with the group since almost the beginning 01:29 sabdfl mako: i'll do it, right away, and cc the cc === mako nods 01:29 mako ok.. we can also just add another admin right now 01:30 sabdfl do we have consensus from the folks here that pleia2 would be a good admin for the lp team? 01:30 dindatx definitely 01:30 sabdfl and also website admin if we need to add that? 01:30 pleia2 thanks dinda 01:30 Hobbsee from the little i see of it, yep. 01:30 sabdfl i don't know how the website stuff works. elmo? 01:30 elkbuntu i'm in the same situation as hobbsee with this 01:30 pleia2 sabdfl: the UW site is on a loco box (if that helps) 01:30 pleia2 you'd need my ssh key 01:30 elmo sabdfl: we can recover it and give others access 01:31 NurseGirl I support pleia2, definitely 01:31 sabdfl pleia2: pls privmsg me your email address and full name, and lp username 01:31 sabdfl mako, could you make pleia2 an admin on the ubuntu-women lp team? 01:32 sabdfl if we don't hear from vidya in a week we can make pleia2 the owner, and one of the other women an admin as a backup 01:32 mako sabdfl: sure 01:32 sabdfl mako, if you need lp-admin to do that you should have it 01:32 mako sabdfl: i'll let you know in a second 01:33 sabdfl mako: pleia2 is lyz in lp 01:33 pleia2 and just for the record, Vidya did tons of work with this group and her contributions are greatly valued 01:33 mako sabdfl: i do need lp-admin 01:33 mako pleia2: absolutely 01:34 dindatx all of the previous folks did great work, which is why we didn't want to just take over 01:34 MikeB- pleia2: probably a case of real life taking over, hopefully she will be back 01:34 pleia2 MikeB-: nod, before I lost contact entirely she was quite busy (since about August I've been trying to get changes made on the site, she's been busy) 01:36 dindatx both Pleia2 and I emailed Jono for guidance and he recommended we come here for help 01:36 elmo mako: I'll do it 01:37 sabdfl mako: sent 01:37 Seveas is the website access being done now as well or will that be waiting unitl Vidya had a chanceto respond to that e-mail? 01:38 sabdfl pleia2: cc'd you, let us know if there's no reply to you in a week 01:38 sabdfl website should wait 01:38 pleia2 sabdfl: thank you 01:38 sabdfl in lp we can *add* an admin 01:38 Seveas ok 01:38 elmo I've made pleia2 an admin of u-w in LP now 01:38 mako awesome 01:39 dindatx thanks 01:39 pleia2 thanks 01:39 Seveas ok, that's all for the ubuntu-womens team for now I guess 01:39 dindatx now we can move forward following the Loco Team format 01:39 Seveas yup 01:40 Seveas let's hope to see you back as LoCoTeam in one of the next meetings! 01:40 dindatx anything else, Pleia2? 01:40 sabdfl btw, salgado says that we should be sending daily notifications to people who's memberships expire within a week 01:40 Seveas sabdfl, ewwww.... 01:40 sabdfl if anyone here did *not* get such a heads-up in thelast few days, please contact salgado to debug 01:41 Seveas that's too spammy to my taste :) 01:41 mako sabdfl: daily notifications mean there is a batch send once a day 01:41 jsgotangco at least we show we care hehe 01:41 sabdfl mako: yes 01:41 mako sabdfl: not you get a single email EVERY DAY after you have expired 01:41 sabdfl not after you expire 01:41 sabdfl in the week before 01:41 mako ok 01:41 pleia2 dindatx: there is the mailing list too, but we might want to wait to tackle that with the website access after a week 01:41 sabdfl then you get the "you have expired" mail 01:41 sabdfl then radio silence 01:42 Seveas ok, so we're moving on to locoteams 01:42 mako sounds good
01:42 Seveas Anyone from ubuntu-ve? 01:42 effie_jayx Me 01:42 Seveas Rolando Blanco? 01:42 effie_jayx here is here 01:42 rolando-ve Hi 01:42 sabdfl Seveas: i think this choice was the simplest, feel free to talk with kiko and salgado about other ideas 01:42 sabdfl less spammy ones 01:43 Seveas hi rolando-ve and effie_jayx 01:43 mako ok 01:43 effie_jayx hi all 01:43 rolando-ve Hi Seveas! hi all 01:43 effie_jayx Seveas, hi :D 01:43 Seveas do you have an english wikipage/websote about ubuntu-ve? 01:43 Seveas I'm afraidI don't speak spanish 01:44 effie_jayx Seveas, our proposal is in english 01:44 Seveas (and please ignore my bad spelling, I'm feeling a bit ill) 01:44 Seveas effie_jayx, where is it? The CC agenda links to a spanish page 01:44 effie_jayx Seveas, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VenezuelaTeam/ApprovalApplication 01:44 effie_jayx sorry about that 01:45 elkbuntu C3s4r, is also a member of ubuntu-ve. hola C3s4r :) 01:46 Seveas effie_jayx, how's the collaboration with other locoteams going? 01:47 effie_jayx Seveas, well ... it has been interesting 01:47 effie_jayx this past few months we have helped them get stablished... but 01:48 effie_jayx they are also workigin in gathering more people to use the services... 01:48 sabdfl rolando-ve, effie_jayx: have things settled down with quidam now? 01:48 sabdfl i had mail fromhimrecently asking if the changes had been made 01:48 sabdfl they had, but he couldn't see that on the relevant lp page 01:49 effie_jayx sabdfl, we have.. and we are working on the three admins to give direction to the team 01:49 mako that's all good to hear 01:50 effie_jayx Seveas, in teams like ubuntu-do ... the main problem is they have power failiures 01:50 effie_jayx very frequntly... they don't stay online for long 01:50 sabdfl i'm glad those issues straightened out so nicely, well done === mako nods to sabdfl enthusiastically 01:50 effie_jayx sabdfl, quidam is a great friend of a friend of mine.. so no harm there 01:51 mako the ve team looks large and active from what i can see, you should be proud :) 01:51 effie_jayx sabdfl, here is really keen to see team he started go somewhere... 01:51 effie_jayx mako, it has been the collective spirit of various LUGs in my country 01:51 Seveas mako, indeed, the -ve team has been a good example to other latin american teams 01:51 mako awesome :) === elkbuntu agrees with Seveas. 01:52 effie_jayx the key has been to be open to freedom and brotherhood 01:52 sabdfl ok, i'm quite happy with the state of this loco team 01:53 sabdfl they've handled one change of leadership well, which is a good sign 01:53 effie_jayx something rolando has always tried to put in everything 01:53 sabdfl and are organised with a clear plan 01:53 sabdfl so, +1 from me 01:53 elmo +1 01:53 mako +1 form me as well 01:54 Seveas Wel done rolando-ve, effie_jayx, C3s4r and others! 01:54 elkbuntu congrats venezuela :) 01:54 Seveas Congratulations! 01:55 effie_jayx Thanks cc for the trust you put in the team 01:55 effie_jayx this is not a goal... this is the continuation of the challenge
01:54 Seveas sabdfl now has the stage for an extra item on the agenda 01:55 sabdfl ok, i've taken too long to get this sorted, my apologies to cjwatson and others who have been waiting patiently! 01:55 sabdfl it's time to nominate new folks to the CC 01:55 sabdfl we have a much bigger community, and I think it would be good to get representation from some new parts of that community 01:56 sabdfl so i will be nominating some folks from the forums, and other parts of the broad ubuntu project 01:56 sabdfl currently, there are 5 nominations, all of whom have said they are happy to stand for the post 01:56 C3s4r :D 01:56 sabdfl y daniel holbach 01:56 sabdfl y matthew east 01:56 sabdfl y mike basinger 01:56 sabdfl y corey burger 01:56 sabdfl y jerome gotangco 01:57 Seveas how many people will be in the new CC? Who of the current CC will stay? 01:57 sabdfl cjwatson will be stepping down from the CC (but standing for the TB iirc) 01:57 sabdfl elmo, mako, and i will stay 01:57 Hobbsee no one from x/kubuntu there. looks good though 01:58 sabdfl i don't yet know the xubuntu community well enough ( not sure it yet has the scale) 01:58 jenda Hobbsee: Why did I read that as "no one from x/kubuntu there. looks good" 01:58 mako jenda: :) 01:58 sabdfl would like a kubuntu representative, but haven't yet met the person who is CC-ish from that group, mortly TB-ish folks still 01:58 Hobbsee jenda: er, those statements were supposed to be split :P 01:58 gpocentek the xubuntu community is not large enough to have members in the CC IMO 01:59 jenda How will the election work for this? 01:59 mako for the record, the cc is not supposed to be strictly representative 01:59 sabdfl well, a really good CC candidate would represent all of us 01:59 sabdfl not just a constituency 01:59 mako every member on the CC will be dealing with issues pertaining to the entire project 01:59 sabdfl mako: +1 :-) 01:59 jsgotangco gpocentek: it does not follow strictly though 01:59 Hobbsee sabdfl: you'd probably have to ask the kubuntu community who would fit that. 01:59 mako and so it's important that they be know and respected by folks in all parts 01:59 sabdfl Hobbsee: i've gone through quite a process to put this list together 02:00 sabdfl would really like 2 more names, and am open to suggestions today 02:00 Hobbsee sabdfl: of course, wasnt suggesting that you hadnt :) 02:00 sabdfl people should have made an impact outside of a particular group 02:00 mako Hobbsee: the idea would be that if there were additional names, it would be an election 02:00 sabdfl anyhow the suggestion is that we should vote and the top n-2 out of n should get a seat on the CC 02:01 sabdfl that way, there is some real competitive position 02:01 sabdfl and we have at least 2 candidates for the next round to start with :-) 02:01 Seveas wouldn't that make the CC rather large? 02:01 sabdfl well 02:01 Seveas ah, next round :) 02:01 sabdfl it would make it 6 02:01 sabdfl but we want to have some rotation 02:01 sabdfl i would like to cover more timezones 02:01 sabdfl and have more processes that involve just one or two cc members 02:01 sabdfl so we can respond to regional issues without a full meeting 02:02 sabdfl and have quorum at meetings in all timezones without having to ask mako or an aussie to be up at 4 am 02:02 mako sabdfl: 8 by my count with the current list 02:02 sabdfl mako: not if we take the top 3 of 5 02:02 mako ah, right 02:02 mako in any case, i'm all for a larger cc 02:02 mako it will allow us to be more active as a group 02:02 sabdfl we will do the same with the TB 02:03 sabdfl relatively few things require close-to-consensus 02:03 sabdfl binary drivers.... 02:03 sabdfl tough decisions 02:03 sabdfl most things can be done with quorum 02:03 mako we're all stretched thin.. but with more people we can at least be broad and thin ::) 02:03 sabdfl which we should try to keep attainable in all timezones without too much difficulty 02:03 Seveas I'm trying to think of people who have been around long enough and made an impact 02:04 Seveas the current list is pretty good 02:05 Seveas for how long will they be on the council? 2 years? 02:05 sabdfl yes 02:05 sabdfl with the MC we nominated some for 1, some for 2, to get the rotation 02:05 sabdfl but here i think we want broader representation 02:06 Seveas MC? 02:06 sabdfl motu council 02:06 Seveas ah 02:06 sabdfl dholbach is nominated for both 02:07 sabdfl ok, let's go with this list 02:07 mako i'm glad to hear that there's no objections :) 02:07 sabdfl ok, i will verify that LP polls allow us to select the top m of n options 02:07 mako hard work and clean living pays off 02:08 sabdfl perhaps some condorcet variation has been implemented 02:08 sabdfl hopefully there are not too many bugs! 02:08 Seveas sabdfl, use devotee *evil grin* 02:08 mako sabdfl: if it isn't, we should just go with approval voting === mako has written his own election methods library :) 02:09 sabdfl mako: not sure how we select top "top 3 of 5" if we just have approval voting? 02:09 jsgotangco in ruby? heh 02:09 sabdfl those who get the most votes? 02:09 mako sabdfl: you count up the approvals 02:09 jenda sabdfl: most approvals 02:09 sabdfl ok 02:10 mako sabdfl: it's the easiest method to implement that usually selects the same as preferential systems 02:10 sabdfl right 02:10 sabdfl i think we can do that 02:10 sabdfl may need some behind the scenes data analysis 02:10 sabdfl ok, done 02:10 sabdfl thanks to those candidates for standing 02:10 sabdfl voting will run from monday, for two weeks, roughly, unless naybody has objections to that? 02:11 sabdfl all ubuntu-members are eligible to vote 02:11 jenda mako: just for clarification, would that mean everyone can approve or disapprove of each of the 5 candidates? 02:11 jenda sabdfl: and would there be a possibility to vote outside that period? eg. by email 02:12 jenda (because I can't) 02:12 mako jenda: i wouldn't say disapprove, but yes 02:12 mako jenda: that's the interface 02:12 mako but sine most people will probably approval candidates 02:12 sabdfl jenda: you can't? 02:12 mako a prefential system would probably be, er, preferred 02:12 jenda I'll be on the road for a month 02:13 mako jenda: find an internet cafe? 02:13 MikeB- sabdfl,: I can remain on the FC is I serve on the CC? 02:13 jenda mako: of course, I can try, but I'd greatly prefer if I could email my votes before hand :) But I don't want to disrupt the meeting with this. 02:14 elmo MikeB-: absolutely 02:15 posingaspopular jenda: good luck to you on your travels 02:16 jenda (thank you, I'll be meeting the indian loco team ;)) 02:16 sabdfl MikeB-: certainly 02:16 Seveas any more outstanding issues with the CC votes? 02:16 mako MikeB-: i hope you choose to :) 02:16 sabdfl ok 02:16 sabdfl next? 02:16 Seveas member candidates!
02:16 Seveas nocturn, you're up 02:16 nocturn Hi all 02:17 nocturn I'm nocturn, candidate for Ubuntu membership. 02:17 nocturn I have been a moderator on Ubuntuforums for 1,5 years now if I remember correctly 02:17 nocturn So, on that basis, I would like to apply 02:18 Seveas MikeB- (or any other forums folks), can you vouch for nocturn? 02:18 MikeB- nocturn is a fantastic forums mod 02:18 Vorian I am here to cheer for nocturn. He is a wonderful staff member on Ubuntu Forums, and is extremely helpful to all. 02:18 jenda yes, nocturn has been a very good mod :) 02:18 MikeB- +1 from me 02:19 sabdfl ok, +1 from me. i think any moderator in good standing for more than 3 months would qualify 02:19 Seveas hmm, last time I looked at the ubuntuforums-staff teampage it had much less members. Great improvement there 02:19 sabdfl nocturn: that said, do you have the relevant wiki page? 02:19 nocturn sabdfl: you mean about me? 02:19 jenda Seveas: there are yet even a few who aren't on the LP page yet. 02:19 MikeB- very helpful and level headed when helping people 02:20 sabdfl nocturn: yes, we usually expect new members to have a wiki page describing their work to date and plans in ubuntu 02:20 nocturn My wiki page is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nocturn 02:21 sabdfl that's a bit thin! 02:21 mako so usually i'd like to see a lot more in terms of wiki pages 02:21 sabdfl who has a good example? 02:21 nixternal https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RichardJohnson :) 02:21 MikeB- seveas: I have been updating the ubuntuforums-team page 02:22 mako i'm happy to proceed in this particular case because we've explicitly said that we would give the benefit of the doubt to long-time forums moderators 02:22 ogra sabdfl, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanielRobitaille 02:22 nocturn Thanks Mako 02:22 nixternal sabdfl: yours isn't a good example? ;) 02:22 mako RichardJohnson's is pretty good :) 02:23 jsgotangco goodness 02:23 carlos mako: but isn't that duplicating most of the info in launchpad? 02:23 mako carlos: some of it, yes :) 02:23 carlos I mean... mine doesn't have all that information because most of it is already tracked there... 02:23 mako yes, that makes sense 02:23 mako although it's nice to highly particular things taht show up in launchpad that you are proud of 02:24 elkbuntu so long as the info is somewhere 02:24 ogra well nixternal os a doc guy ... they love to play with layouts, you know ;) 02:24 carlos mako: ok 02:24 nixternal thanks ogra, just set me out :) 02:24 ogra nixternal, your page is great :) 02:24 sabdfl nocturn: can you see the sort of thing we're looking for? 02:25 jenda nixternal: how about making it into a userpage template, hmm? 02:25 sabdfl mikeb, could you ask other forums staff who look for explicit membership to follow those examples? 02:25 nocturn sabdfl: I see 02:25 sabdfl MikeB-: ^^ 02:25 ShankarGanesh NIXTERNAL: your blog really rocks!!! 02:25 MikeB- sabdfl: sure 02:25 sabdfl in this case, happy to +1 give the longstanding work done by nocturnal, and this is the first case 02:26 ogra MikeB-, nice quote on planet btw :) 02:26 sabdfl but in future we'll ask for that web page to be something other people can read and gain some real insight into the person 02:26 nocturn sabdfl: I'll update it soon. I followed an example of another mod 02:26 MikeB- orga: thanks 02:26 sabdfl ok 02:27 sabdfl elmo? 02:27 elmo +1 02:27 mako nocturn: awesome, thanks :) 02:27 mako nocturn: welcome! 02:27 nocturn Thanks guys! 02:27 Vorian yay nocturn !!!!
02:28 mako whose next? 02:28 Seveas amach1, you're up 02:28 amach1 hi all 02:28 amach1 I am Sri Ramadoss and is seeking for Ubuntu Membership. 02:28 amach1 I am currently the contact person of Ubuntu Tamil LoCo Team. 02:28 amach1 We are from Tamil Nadu, India. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sriramadas is my wiki page giving a glimpse about my contributions. 02:29 ShankarGanesh I know amach1 and he's been my friend for just a month. He's introduced me to a lot of things about ubuntu localisation 02:29 amach1 I have been managing Ubuntu Tamil Team for the past eight months. 02:29 amach1 I have here with me Shankar Ganesh, who joined us recently and currently part of our student wing. 02:29 ShankarGanesh so, +1 for Ramadoss (amach1) from me 02:30 ShankarGanesh He's organised a good group with support from organisations here who've been with him supporting him financially 02:30 elkbuntu amach1, is active and enthusiastic with LoCo stuff, and reguarly contributes to discussions between LoCos 02:30 ShankarGanesh yeah, he does 02:31 sabdfl amach1: very good wiki page - thank you! 02:31 sabdfl gives me a clear idea what you are doing 02:31 sabdfl can you tell me - i'm ignorant - what's the relationship between Tamil Nadu and the Tamil's of Sri Lanka? 02:31 amach1 sabdfl: thank u 02:31 mako Seveas, sabdfl, elmo: is someonbody approving these as we go? 02:31 amach1 sabdfl: we work together in Translation 02:31 Seveas mako, I'll do that 02:32 sabdfl mako: i have the page up, just haven't approved any.. ok thanks seveas 02:32 amach1 sabdfl: as we both share same common mother tongue 02:33 amach1 sabdfl: Tamil is one of the official Language in India as well as Sri Lanka 02:33 sabdfl ok, and is there a loco team there? 02:33 Seveas nocturn, please join the ubuntumembers team on launchpad 02:33 amach1 sabdfl: i hope there is a Sri Lankan Team 02:33 Seveas (other member candidates who have not done that yet: please do so as well) 02:33 nocturn Seveas: OK 02:34 amach1 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SriLankanTeam 02:34 elkbuntu there is a sri lankan team, but i believe it's dormant at the moment 02:35 sabdfl ok, i'm happy with amach1 for membership on the back of his role in the tamil nadu loco team 02:35 amach1 sabdfl: thank you 02:35 sabdfl i'd be thrilled to hear that the ubuntu sri lankan tamil / non-tamil folks had strong collaboration and cooperation in place 02:35 nocturn Seveas: done 02:35 sabdfl so let me know if there's movement on that front 02:36 amach1 sabdfl: sure 02:36 sabdfl ok, great work. elmo? mako? 02:36 elmo +1 02:37 mako +1 from me as well 02:37 Seveas congratulations amach1! 02:37 mako amach1: i was reading through your stuff.. lots of it :) 02:38 amach1 Seveas: Thank You everyone
02:38 Seveas meatballhat (Dan Buch), you're up 02:38 meatballhat Hello! My name is Dan Buch and here's my profile: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanBuch Most of the work that I do can be seen here http://diy.devubuntu.com 02:38 meatballhat My primary focus is advocacy in every way possible, which is what led me to the Marketing Team. I continually push for adoption of FOSS at my place of work, and I've fallen into the habit of steering every conversation possible into the subject of Ubuntu. 02:38 meatballhat In the long term, I would like to push for adoption of Ubuntu throughout the public sector, especially as my state has had a particularly spotty recent history with regard to fiscal responsibility. With the help of my fellow LoCo Team members, I am confident that a significant Ubuntu presence in Ohio is not only possible but inevitable. 02:38 meatballhat To sum it up: I would like to see Bug #1's bug head on a bug pike.<!--end canned speech --> Ubugtu Malone bug 1 in ichthux "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1 02:38 jenda Dan has been an amazing help in both creation and design/planning of diy.devubuntu.com . He is a very dedicated Ubuntero and Ubuntu would be half without him :) 02:39 Vorian Dan has been instrumental in the work that has been done to make the start up of the Ohio LoCo team such a success to this point. With Dans help, we have become the largest LoCo team in the United States, with over 75 members and growing. 02:39 Vorian Dan's vision on spreading Ubuntu has inspired many on our team to become very active ubuntero's. 02:39 Vorian He has been very determined to help our LoCo team become an approved team. 02:39 Vorian Besides all that, Dan Buch is a perfect gentleman. 02:39 jacobmp92 Dan has helped out a ton in our LoCo team, subbing for meetings, controlling sub-teams, etc 02:39 jenda He hasn't bribed me, I dunno about vorian, though. 02:39 jacobmp92 he has recruited a ton of members 02:42 tsmithe meatballhat's application was just too good. everyone's lost for words! 02:42 Seveas it's always like this after someone introduces himself: people are reading wikipages etc. 02:42 Seveas long silence means lots of good things to read, so is generally a good sign 02:43 jsgotangco nice pic too 02:43 meatballhat jsgotangco: much thanks :) 02:43 Seveas are there other ohio folks here to cheer? 02:43 jsgotangco although i admit this is the first time i saw a wedding pic in the wiki, nor to a distro one at that 02:44 Vorian Seveas, the ones who are already cheered :) 02:47 sabdfl meatballhat: *great* wiki page! 02:47 mako meatballhat: yes, your work on the team seems really great 02:47 meatballhat sabdfl: thank you oh so much ... it's good to finally meet you in, er, person :) 02:47 meatballhat mako: thank you :) 02:47 nocturn I have to leave now guys, I'll leave my client logging 02:48 mako nocturn: sounds gsood, thanks for coming 02:48 nocturn Thanks Mako 02:48 sabdfl meatballhat: tell me about diy marketing and the loco teams 02:48 sabdfl how can we coordinate that relationship 02:48 sabdfl so the loco teams receive a steady stream of ideas, materials, etc? 02:49 meatballhat we've been holding off to get the site in a better state of readiness, mostly 02:49 meatballhat there are so many materials out there 02:49 meatballhat most of the work we need to do is simply catologing and such 02:50 sabdfl ok 02:50 sabdfl do you think it would be possible to have a "marketing top of the week"? 02:50 mako sabdfl and ubuntugeek and i have been talking about the new cc candidates and people on the cc and member councils, he's got some good poitns we should raise after we're done processing new member candidates 02:50 sabdfl with some materials etc? 02:50 sabdfl which loco's could translate and use? 02:51 jenda (/me notes that a click on diy.devubuntu.com will show the four main categories of items the project will categorize...) 02:51 sabdfl i think over a year it would be good to take the locos through a cycle of building up media contacts, for example 02:51 meatballhat sabdfl: absolutely, yes ... we're working to make it easier for volunteers to jump in and contribute within the Branding and Trademark guidelines 02:51 sabdfl and then feed thema steady stream of news or event related information 02:51 sabdfl ok 02:51 sabdfl +1 from me for meatballhat on the back of amazing work with the diy marketing effort 02:52 mako +1 for me.. in total agreement 02:52 sabdfl meatballhat: have you chatted with jono bacon much? 02:52 meatballhat sabdfl: thank you!! :D 02:52 sabdfl elmo? 02:52 meatballhat not much yet, no 02:52 elmo +1 02:52 meatballhat I'd like to talk to him a lot more, though :) 02:53 Vorian congrats meatballhat !!!! 02:53 Seveas woohoo 02:53 meatballhat Thank you to everyone! :) 02:53 sabdfl meatballhat: bend his ear for a while about diy-marketing + loco's 02:54 sabdfl i think there's a lot of low-hanging fruit that just needs a well organised wiki page and a weekly mail
02:53 Seveas tsmithe, you're up 02:53 tsmithe Hi. I'm Toby Smithe, a student at the Judd School in Tonbridge. I've been using Ubuntu as my main system for just over one year now, and various other Linux distributions on and off since about 2001. During my period of consistent Ubuntu exposure, my involvement has increased exponentially. I started off helping out on the forums, reporting off, and am now packaging packaging, learning Python, and triaging those bugs that once upon a time 02:53 tsmithe I would have been filing. 02:53 tsmithe I have recently become very involved in the Ubuntu Studio project, and have been packaging various softwares for that, with alsa-firmware, alsa-tools, wired and enblend sitting on REVU; and having created a product in Launchpad, with the Cinelerra-CV upstream SVN being imported, so that we can get to work with fixing licence issues on the way to inclusion in Universe. I have packaged my own application to change the default sound card, as 02:53 tsmithe oundconf-gtk, and this is now in Feisty Universe. I wrote it as a result of not being able to find an applet like it in XFCE, which I was using at the time. 02:53 tsmithe You may have noticed above a number of sound-related packages. I was in the right place at the right time to get involved with helping to maintain ALSA; crimsun and the Ubuntu Studio team wanted packaging alsa-firmware, and I wanted to learn how to do the same. I picked up the package, and crimsun walked me through it. I am now in the process of creating a kernel patch for ac97 regressions since Edgy, and have been triaging various ALSA bu 02:53 tsmithe gs. I would like my involvement with ALSA and UbuntuStudio to continue, and UbuntuStudio to be a smash hit (however high an expectation this may be). 02:53 tsmithe hmm 02:53 tsmithe that was more than it looked earlier :S 02:54 sabdfl tsmithe: wiki page? 02:54 AstralJava Vouching for tsmithe here, I'm also in the ubuntustudio team and he's shown a superb effort in Making It Happen(tm). I might even dare to say we'd be in trouble had he not been with us. :) 02:55 tsmithe https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TobySmithe 02:55 tsmithe sabdfl, ^^ :) 02:55 tsmithe thanks AstralJava 02:55 _MMA_ Im cheering for tsmithe. He has been a great help with the Ubuntu Studio project. Without him as a packager we would not have progressed as far as we have. He has been very instrumental in getting the project better connected with Launchpad and Bazaar as well. 02:55 PriceChild tsmithe's been very helpful drafting the "Forum Ambassadors" spec which we're hopefully presenting to the FC in a couple of hours. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumAmbassadors 02:55 tsmithe _MMA_ and PriceChild, thanks a lot 02:55 Admiral_Chicago I've also seen tsmithe working on the Ubuntu Studio project, he is a solid member and I was glad to see him apply. His packaging has been very helpful 02:55 tsmithe Admiral_Chicago, cheers :) 02:56 jenda Toby has been a good community member, from what I've seen. 02:56 tsmithe jenda, hehe :) 02:56 Vorian I here to cheer for tsmithe too, very helpful! 02:56 tsmithe thank you Vorian 02:58 Seveas sabdfl/elmo/mako: I have to go now, will do launchpad/wiki/summary duty later today. Just wanted to add my \o/ for tsmithe before I leave 02:58 tsmithe thanks Seveas :) 02:59 Seveas sabdfl/elmo/mako: please set the time and date for the next meeting at the end of this one. On the 27th, the TB has #ubuntu-meeting from 21:00 to 23:00, the rest of the day it's free 02:59 sabdfl thanks Seveas 03:00 mako Seveas: sounds good === Seeker` adds in a cheer for tsmithe 03:00 mako Seveas: thanks again 03:00 jsgotangco ok 5 more 03:00 mako PriceChild, tsmithe: wow, that's great! thanks for helding out on that 03:00 sabdfl tsmithe: where are you based? in the UK? 03:00 tsmithe mako, i'll be very happen to see it happen 03:01 tsmithe sabdfl, yeeah 03:01 mako tsmithe: i'm impressed with the range of projects you've helped out on in the community 03:01 tsmithe mako, thanks :) 03:01 tsmithe i like to do my bit :) 03:01 tsmithe i get all this for free, kinda feel obliged to give back to it 03:02 Vorian nicely put tsmithe :) 03:03 sabdfl +1 from me on the back of toby's excellent work in the forums and ubuntustudio 03:03 sabdfl just finishing reading some of the links on your wiki page 03:03 tsmithe thank you, sabdfl 03:03 sabdfl really superb work! 03:03 sabdfl impressed you got a response from becta === tsmithe chuffed and goes red 03:03 tsmithe sabdfl, haha - it took some work, though 03:03 sabdfl keep up the pressure :-) 03:03 tsmithe i'll try 03:04 mako absolutey, +1 form me 03:04 tsmithe yay! 03:04 elmo +1 03:04 tsmithe danke, elmo 03:06 sabdfl welcome aboard! 03:06 tsmithe thanks ever so much, everyone :D
03:06 sabdfl who's up next 03:06 mako alright 03:07 mako stgraber: you're up 03:07 mako alright, we can move on 03:08 mako tmarble: you're up 03:08 tsmithe oh - and i may have to leave soon, but i want to give a big cheer for Admiral_Chicago's application later 03:08 tmarble ok, thanks 03:08 mako maybe sooner rather than later :) 03:08 tmarble Hello all, I'm Tom Marble and I champion Ubuntu within Sun Microsystems ==> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TomMarble 03:08 tmarble I promote the choice of Ubuntu with Sun Servers with engineering and the field sales organization 03:08 tmarble I work with fabbione on the SPARC architecture team 03:08 tmarble And I provide technical guidance to implement our partnering strategy of making Sun's Free Software (and soon-to-be-Free-Software) available in Ubuntu 03:08 tmarble I have collaborated with doko on sun-java5 and sun-java6 03:08 tmarble At the moment I am working with our NetBeans (IDE) and GlassFish (application server) teams to make this software available for Feisty 03:09 mako fabbione i believe is back to cheer for tmarble, although he pasted some stuff to me earlier 03:09 fabbione yeah i am here 03:09 fabbione I fully support Tom Marble to be an Ubuntu memember. He did several non trivial things for the sparc port that are not immediatly noticeable if not because now we can just run on it without problems. He is extremely pro-active in testing sparc and feeding info back to get the stuff done as they should. His contribution has/is relevant. I can't personally speak for his Java packaging skills but his name didn't pass unnoticed in -changes. 03:09 fabbione He is definetely a +1 for our community. 03:10 doko we have to invent the MOTM for tmarble (uploading only to multiverse ;) 03:10 mako tmarble: i believe we met in MTV, no? 03:10 dholbach (I reviewed another package of his and he did very thorough work, was quick to reply back and easy to work with.) 03:10 tmarble mako, yes.. i really enjoyed meeting many people at UDS -- from Ubuntu and the community 03:11 sabdfl awesome wiki page tom 03:11 tmarble sabdfl, spasibo! 03:11 mako yes yes, loads of good stuff 03:11 doko supporting tmarble, we need more people involved with java in the distro. +1 03:11 sabdfl i have worked with tmarble and been really impressed with how seriously he takes community issues, dynamics and processes 03:11 sabdfl the fact that he's here reflects that 03:11 mako tmarble: so is working on ubuntu stuff part of your job? 03:12 mako i assume yes 03:12 tmarble mako, this is a very interesting question -- the short answer is YES (stay tuned for the longer answer ;) 03:12 mako i am personally really happy to see people working on ubuntu as parrt of their job and not working at canonical.. i think that's a really important step for our community 03:13 mako i know it's happened in other places too, but it's great to see it sort of end in membership 03:14 mako in the interest of moving forward, i'm happy to give my +1 03:14 tmarble mako, we see the partnership with Ubuntu as extraordinarily strategic.... it's mutually beneficial at many levels... obviously we benefit from -- as our CEO says -- hardware revenue from those users who want GNU/Linux and our eco-friendly server technology 03:14 sabdfl tmarble: are you already a MOTU, or is that your next port of call? 03:15 elmo +1 from me, very glad to see Tom becoming an Ubuntu member, I've enjoyed working with him on the java licensing stuff and seeing him at UDS 03:15 tmarble more importantly our company realizes the importance of Free Software to developer and user adoption of technology generally --> and this is championed by webink who has had an enormous impact on our direction 03:16 tmarble sabdfl, i am following the process to become MOTU (MOTM?) to the best of my ability, as indicated by dholbach (currently not MOTU) === mako nods to tmarble 03:16 sabdfl ok. +1 from me for membership (and thanks for coming here explicitly) 03:16 sabdfl also, fwiw, +1 from me for MOTU membership, feel free to convey that to dholbach &co 03:16 dholbach tmarble: it'd be great to have you in the team :) 03:16 tmarble I have one mini package in REVU at the moment as a technical study (add-apt-key) (no advocators :( 03:17 dholbach tmarble: i'll take another look at it 03:17 tmarble and I have one of our "real" packages : NetBeans in REVU -- which we are working aggressively on preparing for multiverse 03:18 sabdfl welcome aboard
03:16 mako carlos: you're up 03:16 carlos Hi, My name is Carlos Perell Marn and I would like to become an Ubuntu member. 03:17 carlos I'm a Launchpad developer working for Canonical Ltd. and my main task is to provide infrastructure to handle internationalisation in Ubuntu, including language packs exports. 03:17 carlos I'm also current Spanish translation team coordinator, but I'm in the process to move this role to someone else in the team as I don't have much time to translate and handle the tasks required as the coordinator. 03:17 carlos As part of my work I have a lot of interaction with Ubuntu translators and try to help them in the best way to improve its language support in Ubuntu. 03:17 carlos After more than 2 years and a half improving Ubuntu localisation, I think is a good time to get a bit more involved in Ubuntu process and that's why I would like to be accepted as an Ubuntu member. 03:17 carlos You can see my brief wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlosPerelloMarin and my Launchpad account at https://launchpad.net/~carlos 03:17 jsgotangco whoa 03:17 sabdfl carlos! very happyto see you here :-) === pitti cheers for carlos 03:18 carlos sabdfl: I thought it was time to do it ;-) 03:18 sabdfl cheers tmarble 03:18 mako carlos: your wikipage is also a little thin ;) 03:18 sabdfl his lp account is pretty phat, though! 03:18 carlos mako: yeah, I noticed that after the first membership review... 03:19 mako yes, that's very very true... but you have the advantage of having all of us all be extremely familiar with you :) 03:19 carlos mako: but didn't have time in this hour to 'fix' that :-( 03:19 sabdfl carlos: what are the biggest community requests for rosetta these days? 03:19 carlos sabdfl: more translation/traslators review oriented tools === mako nods 03:21 carlos we already added some improvements to the translation review process which seems is exactly what our translators wanted 03:22 mako carlos: i remember talking to you about membership like 2 years ago :) 03:22 mako carlos: i'm glad you've followed through and have appreciated your community contributions during the intervening period 03:23 mako this is sort of one of those "you're not a member already?" situations so i'm happy with a +1 from me 03:24 carlos mako: well, I guess it was more a problem of me being lazy to do this step than other thing... 03:24 sabdfl +1 from me on the back of carlos' long dedication to translation in ubuntu and gnome 03:24 elmo +1 03:26 carlos thank you guys! 03:25 mako alright then
03:25 mako lionel: 03:25 lionel Hi all 03:26 lionel I'm Lionel Porcheron from France. I work as a system administrator in a small compagny. I am a Ubuntu user since Hoary, and I sarted to contribute during the Dapper cycle: I started packaging, bug triaging, and writing some documentation. I am also one of the fren 03:26 lionel ch translator of the Ubuntu Weekly News. 03:26 lionel Today, I am a contributor to Universe: I do merge/sync, bug fixes and packaging. I also plan to enhance server guide before Feisty string freeze (based on my Wiki contributions). 03:26 lionel You can find the details of my contributions on my wiki page. 03:26 lionel LP: https://launchpad.net/~lionel.porcheron 03:26 sabdfl i will personally congratulate kiko on his sex change and newfound nobility 03:26 lionel Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LionelPorcheron 03:28 mako i think this meeting is officially too long :) 03:28 sabdfl lionel: how is the MOTU process working for you? any suggestions or comments? 03:28 nixternal 1 more after lionel then it is miller time 03:28 mako sorry lionel :) 03:29 lionel mako: no pb :) 03:29 sabdfl mako: i have a call in 30 so let's shoot to be done by then 03:29 lionel sabdfl: I am planning to apply for MOTU in few week/months === zakame cheers 03:32 sabdfl lionel: but are you finding that community helpful, and responsive? 03:32 lionel sabdfl: yes, really ! 03:32 sabdfl ok 03:33 sabdfl i'm happy to +1 on the basis of packaging and documentation contributions, and also UWN translation 03:33 lionel My current sponsors (crimsun, geser, Adri200) are reallyhelpfull and applied patch in a few ours 03:33 sabdfl UWN combined with a DIY marketing tip of the week would be amazing... 03:33 sabdfl cool! 03:33 mako yes, i'm happy with +1 as well 03:33 elmo +1 03:34 sabdfl welcomeaboard, lionel! 03:34 lionel tanks a lot !
03:34 sabdfl drum roll... 03:34 nixternal sabdfl, mako, elmo, Seveas: I sent an email in about Admiral_Chicago, but since it didn't kick off at 06:00 Chicago Standard Time, I am here :) 03:34 Admiral_Chicago sabdfl: you drum rolling for me? 03:35 nixternal you wouldn't be so lucky :) === Jucato_ is a member of the Admiral_Chicago fan club, of which nixternal is the president :) 03:35 Admiral_Chicago a man can wish nixternal. Should I begin? 03:35 nixternal wait for the Dr. Mako to call you in :) 03:36 zakame hahaha 03:36 mako hold up 03:36 mako Admiral_Chicago: you're up 03:36 Admiral_Chicago I am Freddy Martinez, I work heavily in the Mozilla Team and have been working with structuring our team since the very beginning. A major component of my work with the team is new team member education, wiki structure, and general bug work. 03:37 Admiral_Chicago I work very closely with the Chicago LoCo, event planning, keeping the team running smoothly, and advocacy. I also have worked on things like UWN and spend as much time as possible helping users in #kubuntu and other channels on IRC. 03:37 Admiral_Chicago In the future I would like to learn packaging, documentation, and work on migration tools to make new users more comfortable with Ubuntu. More information can be found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreddyMartinez and https://launchpad.net/~freddymartinez9. 03:37 mako nixternal: i got the email, IIRC 03:38 AlexLatchford I would like to cheer Admiral_Chicago, he has been a vital part of the ongoing effort into the Mozilla Team, helping to squash loads of bugs and contributing greatly to the wiki efforts :) 03:38 sabdfl Admiral_Chicago: by the mozilla team, you mean the same one that asac is involved with? 03:38 dfarning_ Freddy has been a great triager for the mozillateam. While I was gone for the last several weeks, Freddy stood up and helped get things rolling. I felt very comfortable asking him to take responsibility for establishing our triaging and new member development processes. 03:38 Admiral_Chicago sabdfl: exactly. 03:38 asac I can confirm that his contributions Mozilla bug triage are substantial and of great value so far. 03:38 sabdfl ok 03:38 nixternal rock on! Anywho, Admiral_Chicago is w/o a doubt an asset as the email said. He has helped me out tremendously with Ubuntu Chicago, he is a Bug Addict, and he is from Chicago :) 03:38 sabdfl i've been watching that team, and it's EXACTLY what I would like to see for each and every upstream! 03:38 Admiral_Chicago sabdfl: the same one you mailed several weeks ago 03:38 sabdfl very well done to them 03:39 sabdfl they have done a super job of figuring out how to coordinate well between the distro and upstream 03:39 Admiral_Chicago the team is a ton of work, i'm trying to structure the team as best as possible === Admiral_Chicago is listening to a jono talk about team work ATM 03:39 sabdfl i would like this for kernel, for X, for OO.o, for Gnome, KDE, XFCE, apache, samba.... === jsgotangco hides 03:40 nixternal Isn't KDE the Kubuntu team? 03:40 mako nixternal: well i don't know about that bug stuff but if he's from chicago... ;) 03:40 nixternal hehe 03:41 amach1 congrats to every new member... 03:41 nixternal he will be Ubuntu Chicago Co-Leader hopefully soon 03:41 amach1 am leaving for time being 03:41 amach1 thank u all 03:41 Admiral_Chicago when you leave town. 03:41 nixternal when I leave, you become #1 then :) 03:41 nixternal You are my Dick Cheney, just don't shoot me 03:41 Vorian lol === jsgotangco groans 03:42 nixternal haha 03:42 mako anyway there is loads of great stuff here 03:42 mako and a very nice wikipage 03:42 elmo +1 03:42 Admiral_Chicago took it from richard 03:42 nixternal mako: he stole it from me :) 03:42 nixternal haha 03:43 mako +1 from me as well 03:43 nixternal drum roll.... === Jucato_ waits... === Admiral_Chicago waits 03:45 mako sabdfl: you're up 03:45 elkbuntu nixternal, now look what you've done. i bet he's holding out just to irk you. 03:45 nixternal elkbuntu: I had my Congrats already typed out waiting :) 03:45 Admiral_Chicago nixternal: listen to melissa 03:46 nixternal Admiral_Chicago: I have to, she's my loco boss 03:46 dfarning_ One of the funny things about Freddy is how hard he works. When he starts griping it is time to automate the process;) 03:46 nixternal lol 03:46 nixternal dfarning_: I just /ignore 03:46 nixternal hehe 03:47 mako ok.. 03:47 nixternal hehe 03:47 mako is sabdfl has not already turned into a pumpkin... 03:47 nixternal looks like it 03:48 sabdfl no, i'm still here 03:48 sabdfl pumkin time in 15 03:48 nixternal yay sabdfl isn't a punkin 03:49 sabdfl +1 from me on the basis of great work with the mozilla team 03:49 nixternal YAY! Congrats Admiral_Chicago \o/ \o/ 03:49 Admiral_Chicago w00t! thanks everyone. 03:49 sabdfl Admiral_Chicago: would love you to pick one of those other upstreams and try to lead the same magic there! 03:49 asac Admiral_Chicago: welcome! 03:49 Vorian congrats Admiral_Chicago :) 03:49 sabdfl well done 03:50 Admiral_Chicago sabdfl: we are working on upstream development, i've spoken to dfarning_ about our contact and getting them more integrated
03:47 mako there was one final issue 03:48 Admiral_Chicago which one is that? 03:48 mako about the CC membmership stuff, ryan troy (ubuntugeek) and a number of other forums council members expressed some concern about having folks on both the CC and the FC 03:48 jsgotangco and that is? 03:48 nixternal hehe 03:48 mako in theory, this would also apply to other team councils 03:48 jsgotangco yes 03:49 mako i hope it's ok if i post this stuff 03:49 nixternal bbiaf 03:49 mako matthew from the forums council says: 03:49 mako 09:30 <ubuntugeek> First off: congratulations, Mike! What an honor to be nominated. 03:49 mako 09:30 <ubuntugeek> Second: I would tend to agree with Ryan. There would certainly appear to 03:50 mako 09:30 <ubuntugeek> be a bit of a conflict of interest. I totally trust Mike, but it 03:50 mako 09:30 <ubuntugeek> wouldn't project the best appearance and could give rise to some 03:50 mako 09:30 <ubuntugeek> criticism. 03:50 mako ryan and jdong have said something similar 03:50 mako and even mikeb expressed some hesitation 03:50 sabdfl i saw ubuntugeek here a while earlier, is he still around? 03:50 mako sabdfl: he'll be back in a few, but i don't think we'll overlap 03:50 sabdfl i personally think there's value in some overlap 03:50 mako i just sort of wnated to get general reactions from the meeting and then finish it up over email 03:50 mako sabdfl: oh, i agree 03:50 sabdfl hence nominating dholbach to both motu council and cc 03:51 sabdfl and mikeb for both cc and fc 03:51 sabdfl there is certainly potential for conflicts of interest 03:51 mako but i think that there's a concern that being your own conflict resolution body and oversight body defeats part of the purpose 03:51 sabdfl if the cc for example is unhappy with the motu council, then dholbach will need to do a very diplomatic job :-) 03:51 sabdfl true 03:51 jsgotangco my opinion is that most would see the potential for conflict rather than the value of overlap 03:51 sabdfl at the same time, it makes for less of an "us vs them" story 03:51 mako sure, i think that given the types of candidates, it's primarily a theoretical conflict of interest 03:51 mako sabdfl: right 03:52 elkbuntu in such a situation would said individual not step aside for the particular decision? 03:52 sabdfl they could recuse themselves, yes 03:52 mako i think that there's a very good chance that this point, mikeb would choose not be on both 03:52 jsgotangco elkbuntu: thats his choice though 03:52 mako since a majority of his council has expressed some reservations 03:52 elkbuntu jsgotangco, of course. bad wording. 03:52 mako but i won't try to speak for him 03:52 sabdfl i feel that's just deepening a potential divide, and i would like to bridge it as much as possible 03:53 sabdfl i'm sure many forums *users* would like to have a forums person on the CC 03:53 mako sabdfl: oh sure 03:53 sabdfl and more and more of them are actually members, so could vote accordingly 03:53 mako sabdfl: i'm not suggesting that we not nominate mikeb 03:53 mako sabdfl: i'm suggesting that he might choose one or other if presented with both 03:54 mako and that in the interest of managing percieved conflicts of interest, that's probably a pretty reasonable thing to do 03:54 mako now, if mikeb would continue going to FC meetings as a CC member, that would be great :) 03:54 mako he's already doing the inverse 03:55 mako but part of the team council policy stuff encourages/requires that the councils have reps at the cc meetings, so i think we're probably reasonably covered 03:56 mako sabdfl: in any case, the fc itself is the one expressing a little concern, so i think that in terms of dividing/bringing-together, it makes sense 03:57 mako i think that in the curren vision of the CC as largely working above the FC and delegating most work to them, the role is mostly oversight and firefighting.. and in those contexts, it makes sense to not have it be the same people 03:58 dinda and having different people means greater overall involvement 03:58 dinda more diverse 03:58 mako that's the idea 03:59 mako it has the benefit of makingn it less cabalish :) 03:59 sabdfl well, i'm not convinced, but i'm happy to try it 03:59 elkbuntu that context applies to just about any project in the community, really. 03:59 mako it can still be cabalish 03:59 sabdfl i think it would be better for the person to recuse themselves from the other group in the case of a conflict of interest 03:59 sabdfl so, in this case, from the FC 03:59 sabdfl since sitting on the CC has a broader impact than the FC 04:00 sabdfl how about that as a proposal, not in general, but for this case? 04:00 dinda mako: I thought you talked about the overlap issue at UDS? 04:00 mako dinda: i don't recall ever thinking about it this hard 04:00 sabdfl that mike, if he's elected to the CC, would recuse himself from the FC when he felt that appropriate? 04:00 mako dinda: we talked alot about how to handle precieved conflicts of interest 04:01 dinda mako: for some reason I recall you drawing a diagram on the board 04:01 sabdfl i'd rather deal with a conflict of interest when it arises, than lose mikeb from either body "just in case" 04:01 mako sabdfl: right, but if he's going to recuse himself from anything he migth have to vote on as part of the cc, it's going to make him ineffective 04:01 elkbuntu the fact that mike himself had reservations makes me confident he would identify appropriate situations anyway 04:01 mako sabdfl: someone who brings up an issue to the fc, and has a result they are not happy with is not going to be happy bringing it up before the same person the next week 04:02 tsmithe am i too late to say well done to Admiral_Chicago? /me hopes not... well done Admiral_Chicago! 04:02 mako elkbuntu: i also trust mike 04:02 sabdfl well, in the case of judicial systems, a superior court would certainly consider the opinion of the original court 04:02 sabdfl though they might not go with it 04:02 dinda and it's not the same judges 04:03 mako sabdfl: right, but you're not allowed to sit on both courts 04:03 sabdfl true 04:03 mako sabdfl: and if you were involved in the case before, you have to recuse yourself 04:03 sabdfl ok 04:03 sabdfl well, then i would be happy with that as a guideline 04:03 sabdfl that mike would recuse himself from issues that he's already discussed as part of the FC 04:03 mako sabdfl: in fact, people interviewing to become high judges don't answer many questions based on the fact that they may have a case on them oin the future and don't want to color their "objectivity" 04:03 sabdfl that way we still get the benefit of his presence for other issues 04:04 sabdfl mako: i thought it was just because they didn't want to demonstrate their prejudices before confirmation ;-) 04:04 mako sabdfl: that's the real reason, not the accepted justification :) 04:05 sabdfl if the rest of the CC prefers for MikeB not to stand for the CC, then i won't nominate him 04:05 sabdfl personally, i think he's a great candidate, and would like him to be in the list because forums are important 04:05 mako sabdfl: i agree 04:05 sabdfl i think it's mistaken to *reduce* the ability of the best Forums community leaders to stand for the CC 04:05 sabdfl and i'm confident we can deal with any conflicts that arise if and when they do 04:05 mako i see a couple choices 04:06 mako one if that we adopt a policy like the one your suggesting 04:06 mako which with a larger council might be possible 04:06 mako and the second is that we continue to nominate people but give them a choice of where they want to be 04:07 mako i honestly don't know mike thinks he's most useful 04:07 mako but i'd love it if he continues to come both meetings regardless of what happens 04:07 mako we don't need to decide something right here.. i'm interested to hear what the folks on the FC who have expressed concern with this think about the first proposal 04:07 mako i'll email this now before i run off to my lab 04:07 sabdfl ok 04:08 forumsmatthew I am on the FC, may I give a quick bit of input? 04:08 sabdfl go for it 04:08 mako forumsmatthew: yes yes :) 04:08 mako please 04:08 forumsmatthew I like the idea of Mike serving on both 04:08 mako forumsmatthew: didn't realize you were here :) 04:08 forumsmatthew if he recuses himself from 04:08 forumsmatthew any issues related to forums governance 04:08 forumsmatthew etc 04:08 mako forumsmatthew: i would want to make it policy 04:08 mako nobody is allowed to weigh in on the same issue twice 04:09 mako forumsmatthew: but your statement is actually a bit broader 04:09 mako forumsmatthew: since it would also cover things like approving fc members 04:09 mako which we would definitely need him to recuse himself from 04:09 mako but there's still a potential for people being uncomfortable i think 04:09 forumsmatthew I totally agree 04:10 forumsmatthew I said so to Mike 04:10 mako when it comes to a body that he sits on approving his position in another body 04:10 forumsmatthew it's a difficult question 04:10 mako forumsmatthew: think about it :) 04:10 mako forumsmatthew: not just you, but the whole fc, and mike 04:10 mako it's better to deal with this issue before something comes up :) 04:11 elkbuntu mako, maybe set a meeting for a week's time, to let people think it over? 04:12 sabdfl forumsmatthew: the FC charter says that the CC will seriously consider the views of the FC and other Forums staff and members in making FC nominations 04:12 sabdfl what beter way to do so than to have a voice on the CC itself? 04:12 forumsmatthew sabdfl, good point 04:12 sabdfl statistically, a person is likely to be in the majority on the FC 04:13 sabdfl if that same person is on the CC, then that majority gets even more weight 04:13 sabdfl i can imagine that there are some hard issues where recusing would be wise 04:13 sabdfl but i'm not convinced it should be a fixed policy 04:13 sabdfl other than that it should be mentioned as a graceful way to deal with significant tension and cases where others on either side feel there's a conflict 04:14 sabdfl i guess i'm willing to be trusting because i have some say in the appointments on both bodies and it would be a personal failure to end up creating a bad situation 04:15 sabdfl ok 04:15 sabdfl let's leave it to settle 04:15 sabdfl hi ryan 04:15 ubuntugeek hello 04:15 sabdfl you got here just in time 04:16 sabdfl mako raised the discussion you have been having with him 04:16 sabdfl several folks weighed in 04:16 sabdfl we'd like to hear your thoughts 04:16 ubuntugeek Great 04:16 ubuntugeek Well, as I stated to Mako and Mike I feel there is a strong conflict of interested in serving on both councils. 04:17 ubuntugeek If the FC did not report directly to the CC then there wouldn't be an issue. But even if there is an objective stance taken on situations that could arise there is alot of room for error there. 04:18 mako ubuntugeek: yes, there are two proposals, i'm summarizing them in an email 04:19 mako ubuntugeek: one would have people choose one council to serve on 04:19 mako an exception could probably made for the TB since it's non-overlapping and not under the CC 04:19 ubuntugeek I think even having a CC memeber as part of staff could possibly slew any constructive results if there was an issue that was taken to the CC 04:19 mako the second would establish that nobody gets to vote any issue that relates to their team council 04:20 mako or that team's perview 04:20 ubuntugeek Well, I really think the first choice is the only and best choice. 04:20 mako they could of course argue for a position, but wouldn't get to make a decision 04:21 ubuntugeek What you are asking could really open a huge can of "worms" so to speak. 04:21 mako it's certainly the more conservative choice in this regard 04:22 mako ubuntugeek: well, i don't think that CC forums staff member should be banned any more than FC staff members should be 04:23 ubuntugeek banned? 04:23 mako barred 04:23 mako kept from happening 04:23 mako not banned in the forums or irc sense :) 04:23 mako heh 04:23 mako but 04:24 ubuntugeek Right, but then basically that person is a gratified FC member. 04:24 mako i do think that we'd expect such a person to recuse themselves from issues where their involvement would imply a conflict of interest 04:25 ubuntugeek It can be perceived as a "go" around to slide step the FC authority, and frankly makes us look like wish washes. 04:25 mako ubuntugeek: i don't understand what you mean 04:25 mako what is? 04:25 ubuntugeek if a CC member was a forum staff member 04:26 mako we're talkinga bout expanding the CC to at least six people 04:26 mako one cc member isn't particularly important alone 04:26 forumsmatthew u-g, I actually think if he were to recuse himself from any topic relating to forums governance it could be a good thing to have someone directly involved in forums leadership on the council 04:26 mako especialy if they recuse themselves from issues related to the forums 04:27 ubuntugeek forumsmatthew: sure, however will that happen? can we be guaranteed? No. 04:27 sabdfl ubuntugeek: what if i were to nominate you for a future CC? 04:27 forumsmatthew there would be some insights gained by the CC that are not necessarily available currently 04:27 mako ubuntugeek: everyone on the cc should be very involved in some area of ubuntu, ideally in a leadership role 04:27 sabdfl would you stand down from the FC? 04:27 mako ubuntugeek: mdke is very involved in the doc team and the italian team and other things 04:27 ubuntugeek sabdfl: I wouldnt accept the position. My focal point is the forums. 04:27 sabdfl it seems wrongto me that the FC folks who have a broader interest and impact in ubuntu should have to stop working in the FC in order to contribute to the CC 04:28 mako ubuntugeek: but we're not asking him to quit those things to take on a cc position, in fact, that'w hy we're doing it! 04:28 sabdfl having overlap is a good way to get the FC's views represented 04:28 ubuntugeek I really have to disagree.. And this is why we never come to any complete and strong resolutions. You guys don't listen. 04:29 mako ubuntugeek: this is a reasonable conversation, there's no need to conclude that 04:29 mako ubuntugeek: nobody has decided anything 04:29 ubuntugeek I'm just stating a fact Mako. I am not being negative. 04:30 mako we're having a conversation with you now because we care about your opinion on this, it's not fair to say that we don't listen 04:30 ubuntugeek Thats fine move along then. 04:31 ubuntugeek The point I am trying to make is simple, there is a conflict of interested in serving on both councils. 04:32 sabdfl ubuntugeek: can you give us an example of that? 04:33 sabdfl as i was saying earlier, statistically, any member of the CC is likely to be in the majority on any issue 04:33 mako sabdfl: the one i'm concerned with is approving members of the FC 04:33 sabdfl so the odds are that the majority view also gets expressed by a CC member, if that person is also on the CC 04:34 sabdfl mako: because that would give one member of the FC a "stronger" say in FC nominations than the others? 04:34 ubuntugeek You guys win.. I wont agrue this point anymore. 04:34 mako sabdfl: taht's right 04:34 mako ubuntugeek: i'm arguing your position here man 04:35 mako sabdfl: even if that person does not vote (and they shouldn't), one would conclude that they would be more likely to be reapproved for the FC than other FC members 04:35 mako sabdfl: whether or not that's true, its very hard to avoid that appearance 04:36 sabdfl right 04:36 mako sabdfl: it seems difficult to imagine that a cc/fc member would not be approved by the fc for the cc 04:36 mako we could argue that's because the cc is approved by all members and so is, as a result, going to always be trustworthy 04:36 sabdfl you mean, for the fc by the cc :-) 04:36 mako yes, that's what i mean 04:37 mako i think that recusing from forums business handles almost every other situation pretty well 04:37 sabdfl i would say that the confirmaiton process of being on the CC is such that a person who makes it is someone who would also do well on any other specific community body 04:37 mako that's true 04:38 sabdfl ubuntugeek: this is not about winning or losing, or giving up, it's about a structure that works and lets the best people have the biggest impact everywhere 04:38 ubuntugeek I really think its a mistake and is not a well thought out process. 04:38 mako MikeB-: the meeting is basically over, we're just discussion dual memership now 04:38 sabdfl MikeB-: i've deferred another conversation to keep up with this one 04:38 mako ubuntugeek: that'w why we're talking about it now 04:39 ubuntugeek mako: with all do respect you guys are talking and telling how its going to work. 04:39 sabdfl i am happy with mako's suggestion that people on the CC should recuse themselves from decisions where there is a feeling of a conflict of interest w.r.t. another community position 04:39 mako ubuntugeek: we don't know how it's going to work, so i find that unlikely 04:39 ubuntugeek I see. 04:39 mako ubuntugeek: i proposed two options, that was one 04:40 mako the other was that folks should choose between one or the other 04:40 mako ubuntugeek: and i've been laying out the argument for that over the last 10 minutes 04:41 mako ubuntugeek: i'm trying to argue for the situation you've suggested. go easy on me :) 04:41 ubuntugeek mako: Ok 04:42 ubuntugeek On your second suggestion, in theory it could work. But I think its a hard line for anyone to walk to be objective in that sense. 04:43 ubuntugeek Suggestion One: choose between the teams. 04:44 jenda ubuntugeek: in politics, both schemes work just as well... or not ;) 04:45 ubuntugeek jenda: I am really not interested in politics. I am interested in protecting the forums. 04:45 MikeB- wow, it has been hours since I caused this much trouble:) 04:45 Seeker` If you make someone choose between the teams, one of the teams may be "losing out" on a valuable member of their team 04:45 ubuntugeek seeker: thats life. 04:46 ubuntugeek seeker: it isnt all gravy. 04:46 sabdfl ubuntugeek: we've identified the case where new FC members are appointed. what other cases do you think might be a case where the forums need protection? 04:47 Seeker` ubuntugeek: But that may damage the team that you want to protect 04:47 mako MikeB-: i just sent the proposals to the fc list 04:47 mako MikeB-: and the cc list 04:47 ubuntugeek sabdfl: honestly, our issues are dynamic I cannot give a exact case. I do however feel strong that if a person was on the FC and the CC and a issue from the forums was presented to the CC objective or not there is a room for serious errors and judgements if a person was serving on both teams. 04:49 mako ubuntugeek: ok, i totally agree that nobody should be aloud to vote twice on any issue 04:50 mako ubuntugeek: i think that folks in the forums will be worried about appealing anything to what appears to be an overlapping board 04:50 forumsmatthew mako: you're saying if they have given input as an FC member then they don't do so as a CC member, right? 04:51 sabdfl conversely, they have already expressed concern about appealing to a board which "doesn't understand their issues" 04:51 ubuntugeek mako: agreed, but it goes beyond just a vote. For example, would the CC consult said FC member for information about the subject? Could that FC be objective enough to give a whole hearted opinion to the CC on the situation? 04:51 mako forumsmatthew: taht's right 04:51 jenda forumsmatthew: that sounds very reasonable to me. 04:51 mako ubuntugeek: well the CC should be consulting the whole FC on any issue that involves the forums 04:51 mako ubuntugeek: that was part of the deal :) 04:52 ubuntugeek mako: sure, i am not saying it isnt :) 04:52 mako ubuntugeek: i think for internal forums issues that pass the cc, the fc/cc member could reperesent the issue, or otheres from the fc could 04:52 mako but the fc member wouldn't vote as part of the cc 04:53 mako on that issue 04:53 sabdfl that would be fine 04:53 sabdfl by me 04:53 mako ubuntugeek: i'm just trying to feel you out on this 04:53 sabdfl i think that as soon as this happens the FC will say "hey, we want our guy to vote" 04:53 ubuntugeek mako: sure its hard to explain over irc 04:53 mako the only potential problem i see 04:53 MikeB- agree, that is how business and other board do it 04:53 sabdfl but i'm happy to have a guideline that someone on the FC (or MC) recuses themselves from decisions over that body in their CC capacity 04:54 mako actually, the thing i was thinking about wasn't really a problem 04:55 mako ubuntugeek: we could make it a rule 04:56 mako the leadership coc says to delegate decisions to others where there is a percieved conflict 04:56 sabdfl right 04:56 mako if we think this will be very common, that person will become a less valuable cc member 04:56 mako or if we think the other issues i've brought up are problematic enough 04:57 ubuntugeek mako: thats alot of rules and whatifs floating around :) 04:57 mako those would be reasons to go the more conservative route of not allowing people on both teams 04:57 mako ubuntugeek: well, constructing the justification is 04:57 mako ubuntugeek: the rule as i'd write it is pretty simple 04:58 ubuntugeek mako: ok spell it out.. 04:58 mako "Nobody who serves on the CC and a team council can vote, as part of the CC, on any issue in the domain of their team council." 04:58 sabdfl i would put it different;y 04:59 mako sabdfl: go give a exact case. I do however feel strong that if a person was on the FC and the CC and a issue from the forums was presented to the CC objective or not there is a room for serious errors and judgements if a person was serving on both teams. 04:59 sabdfl a member of the CC should recuse themselves from decisions by the CC which are a ruling on a prior decision of a subordinate team 04:59 mako hmm 04:59 mako i think that was another past problem 05:00 sabdfl if the issue is presented to the FC *first*, and then re-presented to the CC, then I can understand the potential for concern (though I'll say again that *I* would want more representation, not less, on the CC if I was in the shoes of the FC) 05:00 MikeB- The CC, FC, Tech Board can vote out a member if needed, before their tearm is up on the team? 05:00 mako sabdfl: of which they are member 05:01 mako sabdfl: you forgot that part :) 05:01 mako sabdfl: the one you listed basically invalidates the need for CC i think 05:01 mako by charter, anny forums issue needs to be presented to the fc first :) 05:02 ubuntugeek sabdfl: this would be about if that person can be objective enough. More representation is good, but if that person cannot be objective then whats the point? 05:03 ubuntugeek I'm not saying that Mike couldn't be objective, I just saying "what if" and could apply to anyone. 05:03 mako ubuntugeek: that's right, i hope MikeB- realizes that nobody is doubting his own credulity here :) 05:04 sabdfl ubuntugeek: to me, the fact that someone is on the CC suggests that the whole community has faith in them 05:04 ubuntugeek sabdfl: sure but thats not the point. 05:04 sabdfl it's certainly *a* point ;-) 05:04 sabdfl look, i don't want this to be a contentious issue 05:04 sabdfl i think MikeB- would be a superb CC member 05:04 sabdfl and would make good decisions that affect the whole community 05:05 ubuntugeek sabdfl: well not really, because even if the community has faith, it doesn't guarantee that person will be objective. 05:05 sabdfl and i am surprised that ubuntugeek is arguing against having someone with strong forums roots on the CC 05:05 mako ubuntugeek: right, that's undestood 05:05 mako ubuntugeek: i'm actually not worried that they won't be objective, but that people will feel that they might not be objective 05:05 sabdfl i think the reality is that nobody likes being overrules 05:05 sabdfl d 05:05 ubuntugeek sabdfl: no reason to turn this around on me. I am mearly pointing out a flaw in your process. 05:06 forumsmatthew Is objectivity always desirable? Don't we want people to represent their interests (assuming of course they ultimately have the community's best interests at heart) 05:06 sabdfl the hierarchical structure we have *inevitably* means that groups that have decisions delegated to them are at risk of having another group disagree in a binding way 05:06 sabdfl that creates tension 05:06 sabdfl regardless of who's on that other group 05:06 mako ubuntugeek: right, are you still uncomfortable with the position with the proviso that i listed? 05:06 sabdfl that's just the nature of things 05:06 sabdfl it seems to me that overlap at least has the benefit of ensuring that insight is there when needed 05:07 sabdfl if the CC were to overrule the FC on something, that will bite regardless, frankly 05:07 ubuntugeek sabdfl: and thats still a huge problem to me. 05:07 sabdfl i think it more likely that the FC would be satisfied with decisions taken by a CC that has people who understand the subtleties of the forums world 05:08 sabdfl and the same is true of *any* community in the project 05:08 mako ubuntugeek: that's why we are working really hard to creates structures that prevent that from happening 05:08 ubuntugeek mako: so why is mark threatening it? 05:08 sabdfl in fact, i woul dbe concerned if any one large constituency had too much weight on the CC, regardless of the fact that we want all CC folks to represent the whole community's interests and not just one part of it 05:08 mako ubuntugeek: i didn't see it as a threat, just a point 05:08 ubuntugeek mako: from my point of view its a threat. 05:09 sabdfl ubuntugeek: that is the nature of oversight, it's pointless to discuss all the times we agree, the times that *count* are the times we *disagree* 05:09 mako ubuntugeek: well, sabdfl the benefit of the doubt or we'll never move forward 05:09 mako ubuntugeek: but it seems that having someone from the forums on the CC could only help the situation 05:09 sabdfl in a judicial system, the appeals that have real consequences are those that change the previous verdict 05:10 mako ubuntugeek: but threats or no threats aside.. in the interest of moving forward 05:10 mako ubuntugeek: would a committement like the one i suggested resolve your concerns? 05:11 mako ubuntugeek: by removing the person with a conflict from any decision where it would play a role 05:11 sabdfl this is a really interesting situation 05:11 mako ubuntugeek: and allowing forums input into other higher level sort of things (i.e., approval of changes to policy, the coc, etc) 05:11 sabdfl mako: would you suggest that, in this case, the relevant CC member recuse themselves if *any* FC member raised such an objection? 05:12 sabdfl because then the CC member will always be asked to recuse themselves, by folks on either side of the FC, if there was *any* dissent in the FC decision === sabdfl doesn't know enough jurisprudence 05:12 mako sabdfl: i would hope they would recuse themselves in situations where no fc member made an objection 05:12 sabdfl funny, i tend to go with the idea that more insight helps make a better decision 05:12 mako sabdfl: i'm as worried about non-fc members who brought issues before the fc and then appealed to the cc as anything else 05:12 sabdfl unless personal issues are at stake 05:12 mako i'm not suggesting a lack of insight 05:13 mako i think every fc member, including someone who could potentially be on the cc, should help inform every cc decision regarding the forums 05:13 mako i'm suggesting that they should cast a vote on an issue they've already cast a vote on 05:13 mako or have a known position on 05:14 mako it's a not fair hearing if you know how the person feels ahead of time 05:14 mako sorry, i'm suggesting that they should not cast a vote on an issue they've cast a vote on before 05:16 mako a hearing before a person who already has decided is a kangaroo court 05:17 ubuntugeek need to catch up. was afk 05:17 mako ubuntugeek: cool 05:18 sabdfl mako: are you happy with us narrowing the scope of the conflict down to specific decisions under review by a higher council? 05:19 mako sabdfl: sort of... 05:19 ubuntugeek mako: so you suggesting is to write a rule/policy that if a issue arises in said persons 'domain' that person would only weigh opinions inside that 'domain' ? 05:19 sabdfl i'm not happy with the domain view, because it means that the person would be excluded from many of the discussions where they would be most valuable 05:20 sabdfl i can see the argument against "reviewing a decision they took before" 05:20 mako sabdfl: i said vote, not discuss 05:20 mako sabdfl: or i meant to 05:20 MikeB- sabdfl: Voice but no vote 05:20 mako sabdfl: ok ok, but there's another important case 05:20 mako sabdfl: which is appointing team council members 05:20 sabdfl we have very, very few discussions on the cc that are not open to every voice, in any event 05:20 forumsmatthew mako, I think we have a few more minutes. this is important and we are getting close to some sort of consensus I think 05:20 mako sabdfl: it's not in the domain of the tc, but it's very important 05:21 sabdfl ok, i agree there too 05:21 mako ubuntugeek: more or less, we're discussing the extend of what domain means right now 05:21 ubuntugeek mako: Ok 05:21 sabdfl agree it is contentious, though i would still fall in favour of participation there on the basis of valuable insight 05:21 mako ubuntugeek: sabdfl and i agree that applies to at least any decision made a by the fc, and the fc membership 05:21 Rootvzla hi mako 05:22 sabdfl but i can live with a guideline of recusing in cases of (a) reviewing an FC decision and (b) FC nominee confirmations 05:22 mako ubuntugeek: because by charter, forums stuff percolates up through the fc, that's probably effectively the same thing 05:22 sabdfl this should all be generalised so it is not specific to the FC 05:22 mako sabdfl: yes, that's right 05:22 sabdfl ok 05:22 ubuntugeek mako: thats fine 05:22 sabdfl ubuntugeek? 05:22 mako ubuntugeek: anything else you want to add to that 05:22 ubuntugeek nope 05:22 mako ok, if you think of something, or if others on the fc do, let us know 05:23 mako that's just the two areas for abuse and conflict of interest i see 05:23 mako but there mayb e more 05:23 ubuntugeek can this be summarized in an email for the record? 05:23 sabdfl we can amend the guidelines as those arise 05:23 mako yes, absolutely 05:23 mako to both of you 05:23 mako i'll send an email 05:23 sabdfl MikeB-: would you be happy to serve on both bodies, given these guidelines? 05:24 MikeB- yes 05:24 sabdfl ok 05:24 sabdfl mako: where would be the most appropriate place to enshrine this guideline? 05:24 sabdfl team councils? 05:24 mako sabdfl: part of the team council document i guess? 05:24 sabdfl what's the interaction with the TB (which I do see as reporting to the CC as much as to me) 05:26 sabdfl i would hate to lose the TB's views if things get escalated to the CC 05:26 mako the tb and the cc have non-overlapping magisteria, no? 05:26 sabdfl binary drivers are a classic case where both are required 05:27 mako both view ares required 05:27 sabdfl ultimately i think that's a cc decision, but we had tb on the call for certain 05:27 mako yes yes 05:27 mako if its ultimately the cc's decision, it's not an issue 05:27 mako the only real question is, if it's a joint vote, does someone get counted twice 05:28 mako but i don't think that's likely, or perhaps even possible 05:28 sabdfl right - we just did it as a joint discussion 05:28 mako yah 05:28 sabdfl ok, let's not worry about it - long meeting already 05:28 mako that's good enough for me 05:28 mako today at least :) 05:28 sabdfl i've thought of nominating TB folks to CC but it's too much time 05:28 mako ubuntugeek, MikeB-: thanks :) 05:28 mako sabdfl: i'm sure they appreciate it 05:28 sabdfl ok. mako will you draft something and send to CC / FC? 05:29 MikeB- thanks mako 05:29 mako yeah, something short 05:29 sabdfl cool 05:29 mako forumsmatthew: thanks for being patient 05:29 mako forumsmatthew: we'll shut up now 05:29 forumsmatthew mako, you're welcome. This was important and affected us as well 05:30 sabdfl ok, thanks very much all 05:30 sabdfl elmo, cjwatson, happy? 05:30 elmo yes 05:30 sabdfl well, respond to the email :-) 05:30 sabdfl ok
MeetingLogs/CC/20070213 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:36:43 by localhost)