08:59 Kamion I've pinged sabdfl, hopefully he'll be here in a minute 08:59 Kamion elmo: here? 08:59 FLeiXiuS mdke: Ahh you are here :-) 08:59 Kamion mako has mail, but I have no idea if he'll be around 08:59 mdke FLeiXiuS, ? === kjcole [firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === apokryphos [email@example.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:00 raphink :) 09:00 FLeiXiuS mdke: Nothing :-P === paulvg [firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:01 elmo Kamion: yeah 09:02 jenda so... the cauntdown is over... where's the meeting? === darkmatter [email@example.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:02 zenrox jenda: here 09:02 Amaranth jenda: waiting for CC members to arive 09:02 zenrox yep 09:02 Amaranth jenda: we need 3 of them 09:02 Kyral Just calm down 09:02 Kamion elmo: Mark in the office? === P3L|C4N0 [firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:02 jenda :) === lucasvo [email@example.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === zenrox sits in a chair around the CC table === jenda sits in the throne just next to ya 09:03 elmo Kamion: not sure, I'm @ home === hybrid sits in a CC members chair === manicka [firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Kyral sighs === paulvg joins the audience === sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lucasvo stays at the door and will have a look at CC 09:03 sabdfl evening all 09:03 paulvg hi 09:03 Kyral hey Mark 09:03 Bonzodog hi 09:03 jenda there he is :), hello 09:03 zenrox evning sabdfl 09:03 KingBahamut|Work good day 09:03 manicka hi 09:04 FLeiXiuS good evening sabdfl 09:04 teroedni hello sabdfl:) 09:04 raphink hi sabdfl 09:04 ogra UbuntuForumDiscussion (now resolved) ??? 09:04 FLeiXiuS Alright lets get down to business :-) 09:04 hybrid sabdfl: ya act like ya started ubuntu or something ... :p 09:04 ogra really ? 09:04 Kamion ah, right, let's start then 09:04 Kamion wiki licensing 09:04 Kamion oh, glad to hear the forums issue is resolved, btw 09:04 mdke hi all === sabdfl reads the page, sorry for being slow 09:04 Kamion congratulations to all involved there on finding middle ground 09:04 kjcole Hiya. 09:05 Kamion mdke: wanna give a quick precis? 09:05 Amaranth ogra: yeah, we got it figured out (mostly) 09:05 mdke Kamion, sabdfl did you have a chance to read the spec? 09:05 ogra cool ! 09:05 KingBahamut|Work aye Kamion 09:05 sabdfl Amaranth: well done === Amaranth had almost nothing to do with it 09:05 Kyral Yah I think the only problem is the small fued between Seveas and Arnieboy 09:05 Kamion mdke: only very briefly, still reading 09:05 mdke Kamion, cool, i'll summarise while you are 09:06 paulvg a pity seveas aint here 09:06 sabdfl ok 09:06 Amaranth seveas? i thought it was me and arnieboy :) 09:06 Amaranth anyway, next topic 09:06 sabdfl mdke: how will we integrate items that are not in the public domain? === jjesse [email@example.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:07 mdke sabdfl, that's the outstanding issue on the spec :) 09:07 mdke one of two options 09:07 hno73 sabdfl: items already in the wiki or new items? 09:07 mdke *three 09:07 sabdfl hno73: both 09:08 mdke ok new items would be no problem 09:08 mdke because they would be added on the basis of being put in the public domain 09:08 Kyral I thought it was GFDL... 09:08 mdke old items are the tricky bit 09:08 Kamion wikipedia had a similar issue and had to go around contacting everyone, IIRC 09:08 sabdfl licence interop is complex, and i can see the value of saying "ok, let's basically get out of the way and not add any new barriers" 09:08 hno73 A notice on the edit page would take care of new items === mdke nods at hno73 09:08 mdke as for old items, as i say, i think there are 3 options 09:08 mdke 1. go around contacting all users 09:09 sabdfl hno73: +1, whatever we decide, should be clearly stated on the edit page for future reference 09:09 mdke 2. remove everything 09:09 mdke 3. assume that all current material has already been made public domain, and not bother asking everyone 09:09 KingBahamut|Work mdke: on the UDSF we just reference back to you, because of those issues... 09:09 Kamion I'm definitely not keen on 2. - lots of work for negative gain in the short term 09:09 mdke yeah 2 is out for me 09:09 mdke i like 3, with an implementation for resolving any potential disputes in a nice way 09:09 sabdfl -2 on 2 :-) 09:10 Kamion 3. sounds like it requires checking with a lawyer :( 09:10 mdke Kamion, o.o 09:10 Amaranth I'd think 3 would be good. Default to public domain and if anyone doesn't like that they need to speak up. Would it be worth anything to also have something similar to the CoC signing 09:10 kjcole that attempts to make sure folks acknowledge that they've read and understand it? 09:10 sabdfl 3 has the feel "woooo pretend this is all cooool" 09:10 sabdfl Amaranth: you can't just nationalise someone else's property 09:10 Kyral umm...excuse me for being unknowledgable, but is the GFDL complient with the Wiki License? 09:10 zenrox i think if you post it on a web page it is public domain 09:11 zenrox imho 09:11 elmo sabdfl: that's arguable when they dumped their property in your yard voluntarily 09:11 sabdfl Kyral: we don't have a wiki licence, that's what's caused this confusion I can see your argument that wikis are naturally collaborative 09:11 Kamion do-what-you-like documents, but authors often take quite a proprietorial attitude to documentation 09:11 hno73 #1 is technically doable since we have people's login email addresses 09:11 Kyral sabdfl: ah 09:11 mdke zenrox, that's not correct, but you can argue that with a wiki, it is 09:11 sabdfl elmo: arguable == lawyer's fees 09:11 lucas what about (1) for a month, then (2) or (3) on a contributor by contributor basis ? (do we have full history for all pages ?) 09:11 sabdfl is the website content under a specific licence? there's a variation on (3), which is to assume public domain, send out a 09:11 elmo wide announce, and ask for anyone who objects to contact us, and we'll deal with that material on a case by case basis 09:11 Amaranth Can you send an email to everyone that's contributed, wait 2 or so weeks, move everything to public domain unless someone speaks up? 09:11 KingBahamut|Work sabdfl , then CC:PD it and make a reasonable assessment to the userbase ? Kamion, i look at it like this: not many people will complain if we do 3. If 09:12 mdke they do, and we are open to resolving the problem nicely, like removing it if they are insistent, then there will be absolutely NP 09:12 Kamion elmo: I prefer that option 09:12 elmo sabdfl: over a wiki page? vs. the crap we have in multiverse? I don't think it's a remotely sane comparison 09:12 sabdfl yes, we can announce and wait for comment, but then we could do that with any licence, not just PD 09:12 mdke elmo, exactly my view too 09:12 elmo sabdfl: (but it's not my money ;) 09:12 Kamion mdke: I think we need to give due notice as elmo suggests ... 09:12 mdke Kamion, yes that sounds fine too 09:12 sabdfl if we impose any licence at this stage, we have to announce widely and wait for comments 09:13 KingBahamut|Work Kamion, give the user time to respond, perhaps, yes? 09:13 Kamion KingBahamut|Work: indeed 09:13 sabdfl so, why CC:PD rather than CC-SA? don't we want a copyleft in there? 09:13 mdke sabdfl, it won't get to needing lawyers fees, because no one is making any profit anyway, but of course, it's nice to do things properly 09:13 hno73 I think #3 becomes more acceptable if we have made an honest attempt at #1 09:13 Kamion we need to work out in advance what to do when (I'm pessimistic enough not to say if) people object 09:13 Amaranth KingBahamut|Work: Would you be willing to follow along with what the official wiki does for docs.gwos.org? 09:13 mdke sabdfl, as for PD, it makes a lot of sense because the wiki material gets fed into other documentation sabdfl: I'd like to see it be possible for wiki content to be copied into 09:13 Kamion the distribution as widely as possible, personally, and not to have to worry about licensing conflicts 09:13 KingBahamut|Work sabdfl, it was my understanding that the documentation was to be as open as possible Keep in mind that some people who are contributing to the wiki (a) would 09:14 kjcole like a little pat on the head -- especially if it's the only thing they're able to do, and (b) don't want their work "ruined" (a relative term). 09:14 Kamion also on a more practical note I think more people are likely to object to a copyleft, and the fewer objectors the better :) 09:14 KingBahamut|Work Amaranth , for the sake of openess , yes we are , thus the current stage of lisc. 09:14 Kamion although that's just a gut feeling 09:14 mdke kjcole, in the spec, I noted that they can make their own webpages for that 09:14 Kamion kjcole: the wording of a relicensing mail would have to be very careful 09:15 lucas CC-SA is not fully DFSG-compatible, AFAIK 09:15 KingBahamut|Work sabdfl , Id want what comes from UDSF to wiki and vicea versa to be happy both ways....ergo open as possible 09:15 Kamion but I think ultimately it *is* a wiki and people do need to expect that other people will be working on it 09:15 sabdfl do we want to be able to allow people to set a different licence on wiki content they *initialise*, page by page? 09:15 kjcole mdke, Sorry. Missed that. 09:15 mdke lucas, that's not a consideration here, but i definitely think PD is the way to go 09:15 mdke sabdfl, really not, that would be mayhem 09:15 sabdfl lucas: neither is GFDL, and we have used that for books, for example 09:15 KingBahamut|Work mdke, correct sir 09:16 sabdfl me, i prefer a copyleft, i think it's what makes free software go zoom 09:16 zenrox i prefer copyleft 09:16 Kamion the only way for different licences on different pages to be viable IMHO is if the wiki has special code to display which licence each page is under 09:16 zenrox too 09:16 Kyral I like copyleft 09:16 mdke sabdfl, i agree, but I think the wiki is a special case which calls for PD 09:16 KingBahamut|Work mdke, I aggree with you 09:17 mdke we can't attribute every single contributor to every single page that gets used === hno73 agrees with mdke, copyleft gets messy with text 09:17 sabdfl mdke: does CC-SA require attribution? 09:17 mdke and keeping track of different licences would be even worse 09:17 lucasvo I quite like GFDL, since Linux is gpl, why should the the documentation be opendomain(so every company can use it and make money with it)? 09:17 Kyral doesn't the wiki have a changelog? 09:17 lucas PD++ (and I'm usually a copyleft-fan) 09:17 paulvg sabdfl: all currect cc licenses have attribution 09:17 hno73 Kyral: yes it does 09:18 sabdfl lucasvo: you can make money with gpl and gfdl 09:18 paulvg *current lucasvo: I'd rather not get into the whole GFDL debate, but many people 09:18 Kamion (myself included) don't think that the GFDL is in the same spirit as the GPL; also it's GPL-incompatible which is very inconvenient 09:18 mdke paulvg, that's not right 09:18 paulvg there are older ones, but the latest version afaik always has attribution 09:18 mdke sabdfl, cc-by-sa does, but i suppose a cc-sa doesn't 09:18 lucasvo sabdfl: yes, I mean, changing it and do not give back 09:19 Kamion particularly for any documentation that could end up as e.g. inline help in GPL programs 09:19 mdke paulvg, the public domain one certainly doesn't 09:19 paulvg ofcourse 09:19 paulvg but thats not really cc 09:19 paulvg it existed before 09:19 lucas sabdfl: there's no CC SA, it's CC BY-SA (see http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses/meet-the-licenses ) 09:19 mdke thanks luca 09:20 mdke s ok. afaiac mdke is the master of the wiki and i am happy to follow his 09:20 sabdfl recommendation. +1 on CC:PD from me, following the process elmo described. kamion? elmo? 09:20 mdke lol === mdke points at hno73 09:21 Kamion that's fine by me, if somebody can take up the action of contacting contributors 09:21 mdke can i ask 09:21 Bonzodog We already have CC:PD in place 09:21 Bonzodog at UDSF 09:21 Kamion sorry, UDSF? 09:21 mdke elmo, was your suggestion to make a general announcement, or to attempt to contact individuals? 09:21 sabdfl we can easily contact contributors since we moved to launchpad auth for the wiki 09:21 Bonzodog Document Storage Facility 09:22 KingBahamut|Work Kamion , http://doc.gwos.org 09:22 lucas what about adding a field on LP like "I agree to switch to PD for my wiki content" ? 09:22 sabdfl dunno if moin helps us beyond that 09:22 Kamion Bonzodog: thanks 09:22 elmo mdke: if we can identify indviduals who've made edits to the wiki, I think we should do both 09:22 elmo and cc:pd etc. is fine by me too 09:22 mdke elmo, sabdfl, would someone do a script for that? 09:22 Kamion I think due legal notice probably requires at least the latter, though IANAL obviously 09:22 robotgeek elmo: just email everyone, saying that that if you have contributed, read this email? 09:22 hno73 robotgeek: +1 09:22 KingBahamut|Work robotgeek , thats a big email list I suspect 09:23 sabdfl if someone who knows moin can pull out all the contributor's LP id's or WikiName's, we can get email addresses for them yes 09:23 hno73 much easier :) 09:23 mdke sabdfl, maybe spiv knows how to do it... 09:23 hno73 We would need to write a script to check all the edits 09:23 sabdfl mdke: ok, will you discuss that with him? we'll get it tasked and scheduled if its going to take time === irvin [firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:23 hno73 and then there was the migration from Zwiki ... 09:23 mdke sabdfl, sure, rock 09:23 sabdfl in the meanwhile, we should announce the planned change and coming emails 09:24 Kyral what does the Wiki use for a backend? 09:24 robotgeek Kyral: moin moin 09:24 hno73 in which all the edit history was left behind 09:24 sabdfl Kyral: LP for account details, text files for... the text files 09:24 hno73 (exists in backups though) 09:24 mdke hno73, if people haven't edited the wiki since then... they're really not gonna care I'm thinking ;) 09:24 KingBahamut|Work mdke, your probably right about that 09:24 sabdfl hno73: good point. we probably lost all of that revision history in zwiki 09:25 robotgeek it does leave a vulnerable point (since we are doing this by the book) 09:25 hno73 sabdfl: it's still in a zope database somewhere, but extracting that is likely non-trivial 09:25 hno73 in the form we want 09:25 mdke i don't think it is worth the effort the e-mail that goes out should contain an explanation of the issue and a 09:25 Kamion rationale for why we think public domain is (a) a good idea and (b) not intended as an attack on their intellectual property etc. 09:25 Kamion (or something like that) 09:25 zenrox agreed 09:26 mdke Kamion, we can prepare it on the wiki as a subpage of that spec if you like 09:26 sabdfl mdke: w.r.t. pages that currently have attribution, i don't think we need to *remove* names, but we should make it clear that attribution is not required 09:26 hno73 Kamion: agree 09:26 Kamion mdke: works for me 09:26 sabdfl mdke: +1 09:26 sabdfl hno73: i don't think we need to trawl that far back, we can deal with any cases that come out of the woodwork on a case-by-case basis 09:27 hno73 sabdfl: cool 09:27 sabdfl ok, did we get +1 from quorum? 09:27 mdke sabdfl, how about moving attribution to the bottom? :) 09:27 Kamion I think so, yes 09:27 sabdfl mdke: np 09:27 Kamion mdke: that's an editing task, and therefore WHATEVER :-) 09:27 mdke great, thanks very much y'all 09:27 sabdfl well done 09:27 hno73 that just leaves writing that script :) When collecting names for e-mail, can one also use that to create a "roster 09:27 kjcole of contributors" for elsewhere in the wiki? (Or some other token acknowledgement of contributions if or when attribution is removed from wiki pages)? 09:28 mdke kjcole, the revision history for each page is only a click away 09:28 Kamion kjcole: if that could be maintained automatically by the wiki itself, I'd be all in favour 09:28 Amaranth anyone up for some moin hacking? :) === mdke points frantically at the revision history link on each page 09:28 kjcole mdke, I was thinking of something a bit prettier, but it's a minor thing. 09:29 Kamion mdke: I can see the value in an automatically-generated contributors list for each page distilled from that 09:29 mdke kjcole, also I think people can note their contributions on their homepage, that is a nice way of doing things, IMO 09:29 Kamion that sounds like a pretty tiny moin hack === freemanen [email@example.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] 09:29 Kamion the revision history page already has several modes 09:29 mdke Kamion, that's a developing task, WHATEVER :-) 09:29 Kamion :-) 09:30 mdke sounds like a nice idea 09:30 sabdfl mdke: it would be nice if moin could automatically show the pages someone has touched 09:30 sabdfl and the touchiness involved 09:30 sabdfl but we digress 09:30 mdke sabdfl, oh yeah that would be a cool macro 09:30 Bonzodog it's worth noting that the doc facility uses the MediaWiki software 09:31 sabdfl what other business do we have? 09:31 mdke new members 09:31 sabdfl when shall we three meet again, in thunder, lightning, or in 2006? 09:31 zenrox irc team formation === Kamion votes for 2006 09:31 Kamion although two weeks' time is 2006 anyway :) 09:31 Kamion new members 09:31 Kamion LucasNussbaum === hno73 looks at the moin file structure and sees that there is an edit-log file for each page, so the parsing should be fairly simple === lucas is Lucas Nussbaum 09:32 lucas shall I post my summary ? 09:32 sabdfl clusters & grids! 09:32 sabdfl have you spoken with fabbione? 09:32 sabdfl go ahead with your summary 09:32 lucas https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucasNussbaum - https://launchpad.net/people/nussbaum 24 years old, PhD student living in Grenoble (.fr). Long time Debian user. Have been one of the "no-name-yet" beta testers, and have been using Ubuntu 09:32 lucas since then. Got interested in MOTU in september when I discovered that some ruby packages weren't in good shape. Member of MOTURuby and Debian's pkg-ruby-extras team, maintainer (but not DD) of a few packages in Debian, for which I'm upstream. Current work & plans inside Ubuntu: Help reduce the current MOTU bottleneck (merges missing reviews, packages waiting in REVU), general MOTU work (esp. 09:32 lucas Ruby-related packages, but also others), help improve the MOTU process to make it more efficient by writing useful tools (see my motutools work for example). 09:33 lucas I haven't spoken with fabbione - he is in the same field ? 09:33 sabdfl fabbione is leading the ubuntu server team 09:33 ogra he is our server god 09:33 sabdfl and is very interested in clusters 09:34 sabdfl he did the oracle clusterfs work on ubuntu for example 09:34 sabdfl and i'm sure would love to hear from you === fabbione looks on earth from his server Olympus 09:34 fabbione yes 09:34 jjesse all hail the server god 09:34 sabdfl fabbione: you rock 09:34 fabbione lucas: you are welcome to contact me after the meeting 09:34 fabbione sabdfl: dude.. only thanks to you :) 09:34 lucas I should. I'm part of a french research project linking several clusters together to reach 5000 nodes, and some clusters already use ubuntu 09:34 lucas fabbione: I will :) 09:34 fabbione lucas: great! 09:34 sabdfl any motu folks care to support lucas based on work done together? 09:35 sabdfl lucas: your wiki page is really excellent 09:35 zenrox agreed 09:35 sabdfl it gave me a very clear idea what you have already done and your interests going forward 09:35 mdke yeah, nice work lucas === lucas hears the overwhelming support ;) 09:35 KingBahamut|Work lucas, I think ill have a chat with you later too if I can lucas is very active in MOTU and even if we sometimes disagreed about 09:36 ogra topics, i enjoyed the discussions with him... they were always fruitful and getting us forward ... 09:36 sabdfl ok. for membership, +1 from me on the basis of a solid contribution over a long period 09:36 ogra a total +1 from my side lucas: I'm glad you've stuck around, I remember talking with you about ruby 09:36 Kamion before breezy released when it was basically too late to do anything about it 09:36 ogra and i know from \sh_away's and dholbachs too ... 09:36 ogra (even if i cant speak for them officially) 09:37 sabdfl it would be great to have rails rocking in dapper, is that something you're interested in lucas? 09:37 lucas Kamion: I hope we will do better for dapper :) 09:37 sabdfl elmo? 09:37 lucas sabdfl: rails is difficult to package because of some issues related to rubygems 09:37 Kamion +1 for lucas 09:37 lucas we are trying to make things moving with pkg-ruby-extras (debian team) 09:37 sabdfl ok 09:38 kjcole I guess I now get a vote. So from what I saw +1. (lucas makes my contributions look pretty meager by comparison.) === ogra puts on the miniskirt and digs for the pompoms to cheer for azeem 09:38 elmo ack for lucas 09:38 OgMaciel congrats lucas 09:38 lucas thanks all :) 09:38 sabdfl welcome aboard 09:39 sabdfl azeem: ping 09:39 mdke welcome lucas, good work === ogra applauds lucas 09:39 Kamion lucas: BTW I'm sure Ian would be interested in directed feedback on how AutomatedTesting and ruby interact 09:39 lucas Kamion: I already briefly talked with him, but I'm waiting to get a better picture of this when he starts releasing some code 09:39 Kamion *nod* 09:39 ogra btw, is lifeless here ? === minghua [firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:40 zenrox ogra: nope 09:40 ogra azeem and lifeless have been working through the nights in MOTU recently ... 09:40 Kyral he's in #ubuntu-motu 09:40 sabdfl right now? 09:40 ogra he could give a good insight in azeems value in helping people at packaging tasks :) 09:40 Kyral yah 09:41 seth_k|lappy sabdfl, lifeless is away, idle 7+ hours 09:41 ajmitch azeem has been a DD for quite awhile, and helped me with debian stuff in the past :) 09:41 Kyral I dunno if he's away though, but his nick is there 09:41 ajmitch now we just have to find him.. 09:41 sabdfl ok, he's away 09:41 sabdfl irvin: ping === irvin is IrvinPiraman 09:41 sabdfl irvin: you're up, would you give us a quick three-line summary of your activities in ubuntu and your interest going forward? 09:42 irvin https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrvinPiraman - https://launchpad.net/people/ippiraman I'm 27, an Electrical Engineer by profession. Currently has a full-time job at www.transco.ph. My first encounter with GNU/Linux was with Gentus Linux 09:42 irvin (installer bundled with ABIT mboards) in the mid-to-late-90's. I also took a shot using Mandrake, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD mostly for fun and learning experience only. I came across Ubuntu since the Warty release but never really got serious 09:42 irvin with it until the release of Hoary Hedgehog when my printer worked out of the box. I ditched Windows then has been tracking updates until today. I was first involved with Ubuntu when I voluntarily tested the company-owned Compaq Evo N110 laptop with Hoary until Breezy. I later learned of fellow 09:42 irvin Filipinos in the community namely jsgotangco, zakame, pusakat, etc. and joined in the LocoTeam. As of today I am a volunteer member of Edubuntu, Edubuntu Artwork, Ubuntu Team Philippines, Ubuntu Tagalog Translators, Ubuntu Marketing Team, and the UbuntuGIS. 09:42 sabdfl irvin: can you think of ways we can help the broadband-impaired to be active in the ubuntu community? 09:43 irvin i like the idea of debian having cds that can be downloaded and installed offline 09:43 ogra we have jigdo ... 09:43 irvin i want to see it in ubuntu too irvin: I guess PPP is related too; if you know the internals of the 09:44 Kamion installer, or know people on dialup who do, I'd like to work with them to brush up our PPP support 09:44 Amaranth there is a DVD with all of main on it, isn't there? 09:44 ogra yup 09:44 Kamion it's pretty ropey at the moment because most of the people working on the installer are on broadband 09:44 ogra Amaranth, but there are people who want universe on DVD ... 09:44 irvin orga indeed 09:44 Amaranth i wish the universe fit on a DVD... 09:45 KingBahamut|Work Amaranth , I didnt think it could fit on a DVD 09:45 sabdfl ok, +1 for membership for irvin from me, based on translation work 09:45 zenrox Amaranth: also too some ppl on 56k dont have dvd readers eaither I think they could be more involved if it were easier to downlad packages on 09:45 jenda one computer and use the media (a CD) as a repository on the broadband impaired PC 09:45 jjesse not all of us in the U.S. are broadband either 09:45 irvin i'm also thinking of having a web-based apt interface 09:46 robotgeek irvin: +1 09:46 irvin so even windows users can download packages and its dependencies, zip it, burn and install later 09:46 ogra +++ for taking on the GIS stuff ... and ++ for edubuntu indeed ;) 09:46 robotgeek it would help sort out the chicken and egg problem, "how do i get this without internet" 09:47 Kamion irvin: http://packages.ubuntu.com/, sort of (third-party service) 09:47 robotgeek Kamion: no dependencies atumatically 09:47 Kamion I know it's not quite the same 09:47 irvin Kamion, not very useful, since you'll have to manually download dependencies 09:47 Kamion robotgeek: sure, but it does link to all the dependencies at least 09:47 robotgeek Kamion: to a new user, it is quite daunting 09:48 Kamion but yeah, improving that would be good, just saying it's not *entirely* missing, just kinda poor at the moment :) irvin: that would be great - in combination with an easy way to install 09:48 jenda packages from CD, that would be a solution for dialuppers and the internet-less 09:48 mvo irvin: I like your idea a lot, I would love to talk to you about it later 09:48 irvin robotgeek, indeed. i remember getting xchm 09:48 ogra gdebi-ng could be something like that 09:48 irvin thanks mvo 09:48 ogra ;) 09:48 Kamion +1 for irvin based on translation work and sustained advocacy, anyway 09:48 Kyral Could we put a "Download all depends" link in Packages.ubuntu.com? 09:48 robotgeek Kyral: :) 09:48 irvin Kyral, that would be nice 09:49 irvin Kyral, but how to deal with updates? 09:49 Amaranth make gdebi detect CDs with packages on them with some hal/g-v-m magic 09:49 azeem uhm, hi 09:49 ogra Kyral, depends might also have dependencys 09:49 Amaranth irvin: binary diffs would be nice 09:49 Amaranth oh, azeem is here! 09:49 Kyral irvin: you mean to the packages? 09:49 ogra hey azeem 09:49 jjesse updates are a pain, some of us just borrow works high speed internet to update 09:49 azeem well, technically, I'm at a christmas party 09:49 Kyral ogra: if we assume they have ubuntu-desktop installed, then we can assume what packages they have already 09:49 robotgeek irvin: most of the times, it's people without internet. they just want to get an additional package 09:50 irvin Kyral, if there's an update package 09:50 Kyral irvin: you mean like every two weeks or so? 09:50 sabdfl elmo: irvin? 09:50 elmo ack 09:50 ogra Kyral, you cant always assume they have u-d installed ... but thats nothing for a CC meeting now .. 09:50 Kyral ogra: agreed, we can talk in #ubuntu-motu 09:50 irvin i'm subscribed to breezy-changes so i know if there's any updates i need to download 09:51 sabdfl ok, welcome aboard irvin. azeem, you're up! 09:51 mdke welcome irvin 09:51 irvin thanks all 09:52 irvin happy holidays! 09:52 ogra congrats irvin 09:52 ogra :) 09:53 irvin thanks ogra 09:53 ogra azeem ? 09:54 zenrox azeem: we need 3 lines about you 09:54 sabdfl ok, let's go on without azeem 09:54 zenrox yep 09:55 sabdfl Ananda Putra? 09:55 sabdfl lucasd? 09:56 sabdfl lucasd has done a LOT of translation by the looks of things 09:56 sabdfl pity he's not here 09:56 zenrox lol 09:56 sabdfl do we have any other member candidates here? 09:56 OgMaciel sabdfl, he's been busy helping out the Brazilian team 09:56 sabdfl OgMaciel: yes, i can see, and he seems to be doing a lot 09:56 OgMaciel it is a shame he's not here 09:56 sabdfl he would definitely get my +1 on membership 09:56 kjcole (Both the lucas's of today had great stuff.) 09:57 OgMaciel sabdfl, I have actually lured quite a few translators these days 09:57 sabdfl :-) 09:57 OgMaciel ;) 09:57 sabdfl see, shiny rosetta ... 09:57 lucas :-) 09:57 sabdfl ok folks, can we wrap up? 09:57 ogra looks like :) 09:57 zenrox i have new businness 09:57 Kamion zenrox: go for it 09:57 sabdfl zenrox: what's up? 09:57 zenrox i think thare shuld be an irc team 09:58 Kyral We were discussing this in #ubuntuforums just before the meeting 09:58 Bonzodog If I can just interject, zenrox is dyslexic === sistpoty [n=sistpoty@ubuntu/member/sistpoty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:58 zenrox yep 09:58 Kyral Bonzodog: makes no difference 09:58 mdke relevancy? 09:58 Amaranth IRC Team? 09:58 Amaranth We kind of already do, no? 09:58 Bonzodog just to excuse the spelling errors 09:59 Amaranth I mean, we have the ops in #ubuntu and such. 09:59 mdke Bonzodog, ah, no one spells nylthing right in irc :) 09:59 mdke anything 09:59 zenrox but i think it would be nice to intertwine all the #ubuntu channels with rules (per channel) and have a central team controling it === mdke proves own point 09:59 Kyral Amaranth: I think he meant a way to monitor all the channels 09:59 hybrid mdke: rofl 09:59 Amaranth ah 09:59 Kyral Like put a Logbot in official channels 09:59 Amaranth so one set of ops for all channels and ubuntubot in all channel 09:59 zenrox Kyral: basckly we 09:59 zenrox yes 09:59 ogra isnt that the case ? 09:59 Kamion we already do, although there are channel limits that it's running up against 10:00 mdke Kyral, there are logbots in all channels that want one more or less 10:00 Kyral Kamion: Logbot1 Logbot2? 10:00 zenrox Amaranth: yes 10:00 Kamion I think it can only join up to 20 channels or so, but talk to fabbione if it's missing one 10:00 Kyral mdke: ah 10:00 mdke Kamion, smurf runs one too for locochannels 10:00 Kamion right 10:00 OgMaciel sabdfl, I'd like to bring something up too... BUG 5278 (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/5278) 10:00 Bonzodog the #ubuntuforums channel does not have one 10:00 ogra for edubuntu we have the officiall fabbione bot in #edubuntu and the LoCoBot in the localized channels ... 10:00 Amaranth I've had people ask me to get rid of trolls in such in #kubuntu before, but I'm only an op in #ubuntu 10:00 mdke Bonzodog, log bots are pretty easy 10:01 smurf You can teach the bot to connect more than once 10:01 zenrox as i dont know how to form a team id like help to set this up 10:01 Kyral Could all members have some level of access? *prepares to hide* 10:01 smurf mine has three freenode connections open ATM :-/ 10:01 Amaranth Kyral: That'd get complicated. 10:01 zenrox and help set up the rules and regs and etc... 10:01 sabdfl elmo: what's the right process to update an @ubuntu.com email address for OgMaciel's bug? 10:01 Kamion Kyral: I'm inclined to think that integrating Launchpad membership with IRC is likely to be just waaaaaaaay too much pain 10:01 Amaranth Kyral: The only feasible solution would be to have all the members link to a nick. 10:02 Amaranth Kyral: But freenode has a limit on how many linked nicks you can have. 10:02 Kyral actually I need ping elmo about my @ubuntu.com as well 10:02 Kamion and ties us very much to Freenode in case we ever want to move off 10:02 elmo sabdfl: the auto-update stuff is down atm, due to some refactoring - I'm working on it with SteveA 10:02 Kyral Kamion: Don't get zenrox started about that one 10:02 elmo if updates are important, they can bug me and I'll do it by hand 10:02 zenrox Kamion: that is also part of my propsal of forming the irc team 10:02 Kyral Kamion: I had to talk him outta it earlier 10:02 Kamion Kyral: I'm aware it's come up before 10:02 zenrox maby at some point ubuntu can have its own servers 10:03 zenrox but not at this point tho 10:03 Amaranth bad idea 10:03 Amaranth everyone is on freenode :P 10:03 Amaranth except those silly GNOME and Mozilla guys 10:03 Kyral yah thats what I said 10:03 Kamion I kind of like being able to use IRC even when the datacentre's being deluged with CD image downloads :P 10:03 zenrox just need to form the irc team and have the team discuss this and other issues that relate to freenode and ubuntu 10:03 Kyral I mean we could contribute a server to Freenode 10:03 OgMaciel elmo, would it be possible for you to manually change it for me? Please? 10:03 mdke OgMaciel, a LP admin can do it I think 10:04 elmo mdke: no, they can't 10:04 zenrox Kyral: yes but team needs to be formed first 10:04 mdke elmo, ah my bad 10:04 sabdfl mdke: no, the script that maps from lp to the alias file is in elmo's hands, and is down right now 10:04 Kamion ok, I'm kind of unclear as to what this team would be doing 10:04 robotgeek same here 10:04 OgMaciel I've been doing a lot of advocating and would like to be able to give them my Ubuntu email ;( 10:04 Amaranth donating a server doesn't get you special privileges 10:04 sabdfl when that script is sorted, then updating LP should update your email addy 10:04 mdke cool 10:04 zenrox Kamion: manging the irc channels, disputes ,etc.. 10:05 Kamion we have the code of conduct for basic rules and regulations already 10:05 Kyral sabdfl: ah okay I'll wait instead of bugging elmo :D 10:05 zenrox Kamion: but that dont apply to every cahnnel on irc 10:05 Kamion zenrox: applies to #ubuntu* 10:05 zenrox that is ubuntu related 10:05 sabdfl OgMaciel, Kyral: no, please bug elmo to fix it for you today === ian_brasil [email@example.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === keyes_ [firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:05 sabdfl rather than waiting 10:05 sabdfl hey ian_brasil 10:05 OgMaciel sabdfl, sounds good to me ;) 10:05 keyes_ hello 10:05 ian_brasil sabdfl:ola 10:05 sabdfl has the drought cleared? and given the number of channels, doesn't it scale better to have channels 10:05 Kamion managing themselves where possible, rather than trying to have one team do it all? 10:05 zenrox Kamion: to a point but what about like spam some ubuntu channels alow it some dont 10:06 zenrox also too maby a good wiki page to list ruls for eatche channel 10:06 robotgeek zenrox: #ubuntuforums is the only channgel which don't comply, AFAIK 10:06 ian_brasil it has been raining here for a week solid and the rivers are rising 10:06 zenrox and a central command structure for channels 10:06 Kamion I think we're in danger of overengineering here ... 10:06 OgMaciel elmo, could you? ;) 10:06 zenrox robotgeek: the 1 execption 10:06 Kamion IRC channels aren't a military structure :) 10:07 zenrox Kamion: i know 10:07 mdke Kamion, +1 10:07 Kyral elmo: if you have time, could you set my redirect? Thanks 10:07 keyes_ the DADVSI law is voted now in France, look rtsp://real-live.event.oleane.net/broadcast/live/encoder/assemblee/assnat.rm 10:07 Kamion and trying to turn them into one is generally a doomed enterprise 10:07 Kyral mdke: I think its more about making sure there is an active op in everychannel 10:07 robotgeek the COC applies in #ubuntu, and pretty much everyone sticks to it 10:07 keyes_ if this is voted, this is the end of PLF, VLC, and lot of other open source softwares 10:07 zenrox but you know what i mean if thare is a ban that some one wants to do in a channel thay can go to the irc team and ban and valadea it 10:07 zenrox remove bans etc... 10:07 Kamion I've got no objection to clearer rules, and strong channel ops === Mirno [email@example.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:08 Kamion zenrox: per Freenode policy, that's the job of the channel opts 10:08 Kamion er, ops 10:08 mdke Kyral, i don't think we should decide that for all ubuntu channels 10:08 zenrox hence the team formation 10:08 Kyral zenrox: are you referring to my "situation" a couple weeks ago? 10:08 mdke Kyral, think about all the loco channels 10:08 Mirno Hi 10:08 zenrox Kyral: yes 10:08 lucas keyes_: asking english speaking people to watch a french minister talking in french might not be a good idea :) 10:08 seth_k|lappy I think more than an IRCTeam, we need a central place to see who has ops on what channels, maybe apply for op privileges on a channel, etc. 10:08 elmo Kyral: have you even set email up in LP? 10:08 seth_k|lappy To see who is available to get rid of a problem user 10:08 Kyral elmo: you mean addys? 10:08 Kamion if this is a proposal coming from a wide cross-section of existing #ubuntu* channel ops to try to centralise how they do things, that's one thing 10:09 zenrox Kyral: had bine baned in #Ubuntu 2 weeks ago and i could not get ahold of the person who di the ban === Ju`_ [n=Ju@AAubervilliers-153-1-32-21.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:09 keyes_ lucas: sorry ;) 10:09 Kamion seth_k|lappy: chanserv tells you who has what access levels, doesn't it? 10:09 Mirno lucas, it's quite a bad timeing for a CC :) for french people 10:09 zenrox and if thare is an irc team we can ealy contect the team to get the ban lifted or refined 10:09 Kamion 21:09 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- An access level of  is required for [ACCESS LIST] on #ubuntu 10:09 seth_k|lappy Kamion, you need access level 1 to use /msg chanserv access #channel list IIRC 10:09 Kamion hmm, maybe not 10:09 seth_k|lappy yeah, I was right 10:09 Kamion zenrox: similarly you can contact the ops 10:10 ogra Mirno, hmm, for germans its fine ... whats wrong with france ? 10:10 Kamion I think that access restriction should be lifted so that people can see who the ops are 10:10 zenrox Kamion: i did the person who wasnt around 10:10 lucas Mirno: quite good, it is 22:10 here 10:10 zenrox culd not remove the ban 10:10 mdke Kamion, +1 10:10 seth_k|lappy Kamion, I don't know if you can. I think that's a freenode thing 10:10 ogra Mirno, i prefer 9pm to 5am ;) 10:10 Kamion zenrox: an IRC team has no power without the cooperation of the channel operators 10:10 robotgeek Kamion: generally you can see who the ops are by doing !ops 10:10 mdke seth_k|lappy, sure you can 10:10 Kamion zenrox: therefore this proposal has to come from the channel operators 10:10 seth_k|lappy mdke, alright 10:10 Kamion robotgeek: in channels with bots that recognise !commands, sure 10:10 zenrox Kamion: at least 1 person from can ops will be on the team 10:10 zenrox cachanel 10:10 Kamion zenrox: have you discussed this with them? 10:11 zenrox yes 10:11 robotgeek Kamion: yup, ubotu is good to have around 10:11 Kamion zenrox: are any of the relevant people here? 10:11 zenrox no as usual 10:11 Mirno ogra: it's RIGHT NOW, the debat/vote for DAVIDSI law ... Law that will forbid free software and reverse engeneering etc, in France. 10:11 mdke Mirno, #ubuntu-offtopic pls 10:11 ogra Mirno, ask them to postpone it until we're done ... 10:11 Kamion perhaps you can put together a wiki page with a list of the people involved here 10:11 Amaranth relevant people? === keyes_ french politics are bastards 10:11 Kamion and the channels they're responsible for 10:11 Amaranth i'm in op in #ubuntu, does that count? 10:12 zenrox Amaranth: yes 10:12 Amaranth err, an op 10:12 zenrox you count 10:12 Amaranth i think a team would be useless, actually 10:12 Kamion that way we can have some kind of an idea of who wants to form a team and cooperate in shared management of channels 10:12 zenrox Amaranth: but want about in the long run 10:12 Amaranth there has only been one time i wished i had op in another channel 10:12 Kyral Amaranth: #ubuntuforums? 10:12 Kamion there are too many channels and operators for a proposal from just one or two people to make sense on its own, IMHO 10:12 Amaranth Kyral: that's not an official channel, really 10:13 lucasvo I think the bigger problem is that too many peopla are in the channels 10:13 zenrox Kamion: agreed 10:13 sabdfl ok, can we ask zenrox & co to work on that? do you need any specific decision or support from the CC? 10:13 zenrox sabdfl: i was told that i have to get approvil to get this set up and for the team but i will come back with a list off ppl and rally more support 10:14 zenrox off=of 10:14 Amaranth keyes_: dang, no subtitles :P 10:14 mdke zenrox, if you work on a spec, it will be much clearer 10:14 zenrox mdke: yep i need help 10:14 mdke it's difficult to judge just like this 10:14 keyes_ sorry 10:14 sabdfl i like the idea of an IRC team, so +1 from me for that, but you'll need to come back with a formal proposal, speling not important 10:14 zenrox lots of it 10:14 Kyral lol 10:14 zenrox hehehehe 10:14 sabdfl ok zenrox: ok, generally we need to have a clear statement of goals and list of 10:14 Kamion initial people interested before approving it, so that we know it's starting off on a good footing 10:14 zenrox ok 10:15 Kamion zenrox: but you can certainly start informal collaboration without having to get CC approval for that 10:15 sabdfl zenrox: thanks for taking the lead on this === zenrox bows to the will 10:15 keyes_ anarchy will beat ^^ 10:15 sabdfl ok folks, any other business? 10:15 Kamion zenrox: we don't ban people from talking to each other and just doing useful stuff ;-) 10:15 zenrox Kamion: i know that 10:15 Kyral zenrox: or disagreeing with Forum Admins ;P 10:15 Bonzodog Are people aware of the Ubuntu Document Storage Facility and what it does? 10:15 Mirno i'm sorry did I miss the "forum' topic ? 10:16 mdke Bonzodog, yes 10:16 mdke Mirno, yes 10:16 Kamion Mirno: apparently resolved, so not being discussed here 10:16 Mirno Kamion: ok 10:16 jenda Bonzodog: Maybe you should inform - I was surprised to see how many people weren't 10:16 Bonzodog I would just like to give a little briefing on it. I know you are aware mdke 10:16 Kamion Bonzodog: today was the first I'd heard of it 10:16 Mirno never heard of it 10:17 Bonzodog the website: http://doc.gwos.org 10:17 sabdfl Bonzodog: ? 10:17 Bonzodog It is a project run by KingBahamut 10:17 Kamion FWIW the web site isn't responding to me 10:17 ogra same here 10:17 seth_k|lappy really slow here 10:17 Bonzodog my launchpad page: 10:17 kjcole Kamion, ditto 10:18 Mirno Bonzodog: ah this .. 10:18 Bonzodog http://www.launchpad] 10:18 seth_k|lappy the udsf contributes to dilution... why can't the wiki be used? 10:18 jjesse +1 seth_k|lappy 10:18 Bonzodog https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bonzodog 10:18 Bonzodog is me 10:18 mdke seth_k|lappy, please don't start this, it's late already 10:18 hybrid duh 10:18 Kyral seth_k|lappy: KB has had some...disagreements with the Wiki staff it seems. Lets put it that way 10:19 zenrox so are we backly done here === zenrox bows out to eat === raphink [firstname.lastname@example.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:19 sabdfl Bonzodog: ok, the site seems to be down now we are part of team bahamut and we are working alongside the wiki and mdke 10:19 Bonzodog to put together a second wiki that is more how-to's and basic documentation onusing ubuntu I can see why the forum community wants it's own wiki, but it would be cool 10:19 hno73 if they had the same markup so we could move content between the wikis more easily 10:19 Bonzodog sabdfl: the site is under attack 10:19 sabdfl can i ask you to put a document together that describes what you are doing and put it on the agenda for the next CC meeting? my thought is just that the "official" Ubuntu forums should be encouraging 10:20 seth_k|lappy use of the *official* Ubuntu wiki, not some third-party project. My objection doesn't really relate to the doc itself. 10:20 hno73 esp, now if they both become PD 10:20 Bonzodog and has been a few times === thesaltydog [n=fabio@ubuntu/member/thesaltydog] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:20 thesaltydog am I late? sorry.. 10:20 sabdfl seth_k|lappy: yes, but there is room for other wiki's, for example the loco teams often create them 10:20 Amaranth thesaltydog: the meeting is pretty much over 10:20 thesaltydog ah..ok 10:21 thesaltydog I thought it was at 20:00 utc === hno73 runs several moin wikis which don't seem to get attacked 10:21 irvin the docteam is pretty handicapped at the moment, we would welcome your contributions Bonzodog 10:21 Bonzodog why ours is being attacked is a mystery Bonzodog: why would the site be attacked? if there is a controversy in the 10:21 sabdfl forums or irc, please ask both sides to state their case in the wiki and bring it to the next CC meeting === keyes_ is now known as keyes 10:21 sabdfl thesaltydog: it was ;-) 10:21 Riddell Amaranth: I'm happy to make any responsible person an op in #kubuntu but I don't know how much you're in there 10:21 hno73 In fact I've moved two wikis from media to moin due to spam infestation 10:21 Bonzodog Kingbahmut has more on it 10:21 Kyral sabdfl: there is a small....issue in that 10:21 thesaltydog hi sabdfl 10:21 mdke hno73, :) go moin! 10:21 Amaranth Riddell: Basically never. But it seems like you're more likely to find an op in #ubuntu than #kubuntu 10:22 Amaranth Riddell: That was a while ago though. === hno73 is a moin zelot :) 10:22 seth_k|lappy Amaranth, I'm in there quite a few hours a day, 8-10 usually 10:22 robotgeek Riddell: i'm there usually, now that i am using kubuntu :) 10:22 Riddell seth_k|lappy: that's why you're on op :) sabdfl, of course there is room; I'm not saying that the udsf should be asked to stop or something. sabdfl, however, the official Ubuntu Forums 10:23 seth_k|lappy encourage the use of this site instead of the official wiki. It was simply my opinion that an Ubuntu resource that was deemed "official" should encourage the use of official Ubuntu-sanctioned support documents. 10:23 robotgeek seth_k|lappy: +1 10:23 Amaranth seth_k|lappy: There seemed to be an issue with the docs getting moved to the official wiki. 10:23 Amaranth seth_k|lappy: Sounded like it was basically formatting issues. 10:23 sabdfl seth_k|lappy: agreed. we need to assess if the UDSF serves a real puspose, then that could become official for that purpose 10:23 Bonzodog I was hoping that the two wikis would be able to work together 10:24 sabdfl i know the docteam have wanted a more stable platform than a wiki 10:24 mdke Bonzodog, the markup is not very compatible 10:24 sabdfl what i don't like is the idea of two docteams :-) 10:24 Bonzodog as we are a resource of how-to's and basic documentation 10:24 sabdfl anyhow, this is a matter that requires some detailed background 10:24 seth_k|lappy Riddell, yeah, that was just in response to Amaranth saying that ops in #kubuntu were hard to find 10:24 lucasvo if you say the the 2nd wiki is for howto & doc, what is the official wiki for? 10:24 Bonzodog we use MediaWiki as our software 10:24 mdke lucasvo, they are both for that === Sanne [n=Sanne@p548DA33C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:24 sabdfl Bonzodog: please write up the rationale and vision of the UDSF, and get docteam and wiki team commentary alongside it 10:24 Bonzodog which powers wikipedia 10:24 Bonzodog I will do 10:25 sabdfl we can discuss it when we meet again 10:25 Bonzodog and we bring it to the next meeting 10:25 sabdfl cool 10:25 irvin that would be nice 10:25 sabdfl ok. kamion, elmo, friends, thank you!