CC_2005-12-20
08:59 Kamion I've pinged sabdfl, hopefully he'll be here in a minute
08:59 Kamion elmo: here?
08:59 FLeiXiuS mdke: Ahh you are here :-)
08:59 Kamion mako has mail, but I have no idea if he'll be around
08:59 mdke FLeiXiuS, ?
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09:00 raphink :)
09:00 FLeiXiuS mdke: Nothing :-P
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09:01 elmo Kamion: yeah
09:02 jenda so... the cauntdown is over... where's the meeting?
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09:02 zenrox jenda: here
09:02 Amaranth jenda: waiting for CC members to arive
09:02 zenrox yep
09:02 Amaranth jenda: we need 3 of them
09:02 Kyral Just calm down
09:02 Kamion elmo: Mark in the office?
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09:02 jenda :)
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=== zenrox sits in a chair around the CC table
=== jenda sits in the throne just next to ya
09:03 elmo Kamion: not sure, I'm @ home
=== hybrid sits in a CC members chair
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=== Kyral sighs
=== paulvg joins the audience
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=== lucasvo stays at the door and will have a look at CC
09:03 sabdfl evening all
09:03 paulvg hi
09:03 Kyral hey Mark
09:03 Bonzodog hi
09:03 jenda there he is :), hello
09:03 zenrox evning sabdfl
09:03 KingBahamut|Work good day
09:03 manicka hi
09:04 FLeiXiuS good evening sabdfl
09:04 teroedni hello sabdfl:)
09:04 raphink hi sabdfl
09:04 ogra UbuntuForumDiscussion (now resolved) ???
09:04 FLeiXiuS Alright lets get down to business :-)
09:04 hybrid sabdfl: ya act like ya started ubuntu or something ... :p
09:04 ogra really ?
09:04 Kamion ah, right, let's start then
09:04 Kamion wiki licensing
09:04 Kamion oh, glad to hear the forums issue is resolved, btw
09:04 mdke hi all
=== sabdfl reads the page, sorry for being slow
09:04 Kamion congratulations to all involved there on finding middle ground
09:04 kjcole Hiya.
09:05 Kamion mdke: wanna give a quick precis?
09:05 Amaranth ogra: yeah, we got it figured out (mostly)
09:05 mdke Kamion, sabdfl did you have a chance to read the spec?
09:05 ogra cool !
09:05 KingBahamut|Work aye Kamion
09:05 sabdfl Amaranth: well done
=== Amaranth had almost nothing to do with it
09:05 Kyral Yah I think the only problem is the small fued between Seveas and Arnieboy
09:05 Kamion mdke: only very briefly, still reading
09:05 mdke Kamion, cool, i'll summarise while you are
09:06 paulvg a pity seveas aint here
09:06 sabdfl ok
09:06 Amaranth seveas? i thought it was me and arnieboy :)
09:06 Amaranth anyway, next topic
09:06 sabdfl mdke: how will we integrate items that are not in the public domain?
=== jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:07 mdke sabdfl, that's the outstanding issue on the spec :)
09:07 mdke one of two options
09:07 hno73 sabdfl: items already in the wiki or new items?
09:07 mdke *three
09:07 sabdfl hno73: both
09:08 mdke ok new items would be no problem
09:08 mdke because they would be added on the basis of being put in the public domain
09:08 Kyral I thought it was GFDL...
09:08 mdke old items are the tricky bit
09:08 Kamion wikipedia had a similar issue and had to go around contacting everyone, IIRC
09:08 sabdfl licence interop is complex, and i can see the value of saying "ok, let's
basically get out of the way and not add any new barriers"
09:08 hno73 A notice on the edit page would take care of new items
=== mdke nods at hno73
09:08 mdke as for old items, as i say, i think there are 3 options
09:08 mdke 1. go around contacting all users
09:09 sabdfl hno73: +1, whatever we decide, should be clearly stated on the edit page for
future reference
09:09 mdke 2. remove everything
09:09 mdke 3. assume that all current material has already been made public domain, and
not bother asking everyone
09:09 KingBahamut|Work mdke: on the UDSF we just reference back to you, because of those issues...
09:09 Kamion I'm definitely not keen on 2. - lots of work for negative gain in the short
term
09:09 mdke yeah 2 is out for me
09:09 mdke i like 3, with an implementation for resolving any potential disputes in a
nice way
09:09 sabdfl -2 on 2 :-)
09:10 Kamion 3. sounds like it requires checking with a lawyer :(
09:10 mdke Kamion, o.o
09:10 Amaranth I'd think 3 would be good. Default to public domain and if anyone doesn't
like that they need to speak up.
Would it be worth anything to also have something similar to the CoC signing
09:10 kjcole that attempts to make sure folks acknowledge that they've read and
understand it?
09:10 sabdfl 3 has the feel "woooo pretend this is all cooool"
09:10 sabdfl Amaranth: you can't just nationalise someone else's property
09:10 Kyral umm...excuse me for being unknowledgable, but is the GFDL complient with the
Wiki License?
09:10 zenrox i think if you post it on a web page it is public domain
09:11 zenrox imho
09:11 elmo sabdfl: that's arguable when they dumped their property in your yard
voluntarily
09:11 sabdfl Kyral: we don't have a wiki licence, that's what's caused this confusion
I can see your argument that wikis are naturally collaborative
09:11 Kamion do-what-you-like documents, but authors often take quite a proprietorial
attitude to documentation
09:11 hno73 #1 is technically doable since we have people's login email addresses
09:11 Kyral sabdfl: ah
09:11 mdke zenrox, that's not correct, but you can argue that with a wiki, it is
09:11 sabdfl elmo: arguable == lawyer's fees
09:11 lucas what about (1) for a month, then (2) or (3) on a contributor by contributor
basis ? (do we have full history for all pages ?)
09:11 sabdfl is the website content under a specific licence?
there's a variation on (3), which is to assume public domain, send out a
09:11 elmo wide announce, and ask for anyone who objects to contact us, and we'll deal
with that material on a case by case basis
09:11 Amaranth Can you send an email to everyone that's contributed, wait 2 or so weeks,
move everything to public domain unless someone speaks up?
09:11 KingBahamut|Work sabdfl , then CC:PD it and make a reasonable assessment to the userbase ?
Kamion, i look at it like this: not many people will complain if we do 3. If
09:12 mdke they do, and we are open to resolving the problem nicely, like removing it
if they are insistent, then there will be absolutely NP
09:12 Kamion elmo: I prefer that option
09:12 elmo sabdfl: over a wiki page? vs. the crap we have in multiverse? I don't
think it's a remotely sane comparison
09:12 sabdfl yes, we can announce and wait for comment, but then we could do that with
any licence, not just PD
09:12 mdke elmo, exactly my view too
09:12 elmo sabdfl: (but it's not my money ;)
09:12 Kamion mdke: I think we need to give due notice as elmo suggests ...
09:12 mdke Kamion, yes that sounds fine too
09:12 sabdfl if we impose any licence at this stage, we have to announce widely and wait
for comments
09:13 KingBahamut|Work Kamion, give the user time to respond, perhaps, yes?
09:13 Kamion KingBahamut|Work: indeed
09:13 sabdfl so, why CC:PD rather than CC-SA? don't we want a copyleft in there?
09:13 mdke sabdfl, it won't get to needing lawyers fees, because no one is making any
profit anyway, but of course, it's nice to do things properly
09:13 hno73 I think #3 becomes more acceptable if we have made an honest attempt at #1
09:13 Kamion we need to work out in advance what to do when (I'm pessimistic enough not
to say if) people object
09:13 Amaranth KingBahamut|Work: Would you be willing to follow along with what the
official wiki does for docs.gwos.org?
09:13 mdke sabdfl, as for PD, it makes a lot of sense because the wiki material gets
fed into other documentation
sabdfl: I'd like to see it be possible for wiki content to be copied into
09:13 Kamion the distribution as widely as possible, personally, and not to have to worry
about licensing conflicts
09:13 KingBahamut|Work sabdfl, it was my understanding that the documentation was to be as open as
possible
Keep in mind that some people who are contributing to the wiki (a) would
09:14 kjcole like a little pat on the head -- especially if it's the only thing they're
able to do, and (b) don't want their work "ruined" (a relative term).
09:14 Kamion also on a more practical note I think more people are likely to object to a
copyleft, and the fewer objectors the better :)
09:14 KingBahamut|Work Amaranth , for the sake of openess , yes we are , thus the current stage of
lisc.
09:14 Kamion although that's just a gut feeling
09:14 mdke kjcole, in the spec, I noted that they can make their own webpages for that
09:14 Kamion kjcole: the wording of a relicensing mail would have to be very careful
09:15 lucas CC-SA is not fully DFSG-compatible, AFAIK
09:15 KingBahamut|Work sabdfl , Id want what comes from UDSF to wiki and vicea versa to be happy
both ways....ergo open as possible
09:15 Kamion but I think ultimately it *is* a wiki and people do need to expect that
other people will be working on it
09:15 sabdfl do we want to be able to allow people to set a different licence on wiki
content they *initialise*, page by page?
09:15 kjcole mdke, Sorry. Missed that.
09:15 mdke lucas, that's not a consideration here, but i definitely think PD is the way
to go
09:15 mdke sabdfl, really not, that would be mayhem
09:15 sabdfl lucas: neither is GFDL, and we have used that for books, for example
09:15 KingBahamut|Work mdke, correct sir
09:16 sabdfl me, i prefer a copyleft, i think it's what makes free software go zoom
09:16 zenrox i prefer copyleft
09:16 Kamion the only way for different licences on different pages to be viable IMHO is
if the wiki has special code to display which licence each page is under
09:16 zenrox too
09:16 Kyral I like copyleft
09:16 mdke sabdfl, i agree, but I think the wiki is a special case which calls for PD
09:16 KingBahamut|Work mdke, I aggree with you
09:17 mdke we can't attribute every single contributor to every single page that gets
used
=== hno73 agrees with mdke, copyleft gets messy with text
09:17 sabdfl mdke: does CC-SA require attribution?
09:17 mdke and keeping track of different licences would be even worse
09:17 lucasvo I quite like GFDL, since Linux is gpl, why should the the documentation be
opendomain(so every company can use it and make money with it)?
09:17 Kyral doesn't the wiki have a changelog?
09:17 lucas PD++ (and I'm usually a copyleft-fan)
09:17 paulvg sabdfl: all currect cc licenses have attribution
09:17 hno73 Kyral: yes it does
09:18 sabdfl lucasvo: you can make money with gpl and gfdl
09:18 paulvg *current
lucasvo: I'd rather not get into the whole GFDL debate, but many people
09:18 Kamion (myself included) don't think that the GFDL is in the same spirit as the
GPL; also it's GPL-incompatible which is very inconvenient
09:18 mdke paulvg, that's not right
09:18 paulvg there are older ones, but the latest version afaik always has attribution
09:18 mdke sabdfl, cc-by-sa does, but i suppose a cc-sa doesn't
09:18 lucasvo sabdfl: yes, I mean, changing it and do not give back
09:19 Kamion particularly for any documentation that could end up as e.g. inline help in
GPL programs
09:19 mdke paulvg, the public domain one certainly doesn't
09:19 paulvg ofcourse
09:19 paulvg but thats not really cc
09:19 paulvg it existed before
09:19 lucas sabdfl: there's no CC SA, it's CC BY-SA (see
http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses/meet-the-licenses )
09:19 mdke thanks luca
09:20 mdke s
ok. afaiac mdke is the master of the wiki and i am happy to follow his
09:20 sabdfl recommendation. +1 on CC:PD from me, following the process elmo described.
kamion? elmo?
09:20 mdke lol
=== mdke points at hno73
09:21 Kamion that's fine by me, if somebody can take up the action of contacting
contributors
09:21 mdke can i ask
09:21 Bonzodog We already have CC:PD in place
09:21 Bonzodog at UDSF
09:21 Kamion sorry, UDSF?
09:21 mdke elmo, was your suggestion to make a general announcement, or to attempt to
contact individuals?
09:21 sabdfl we can easily contact contributors since we moved to launchpad auth for the
wiki
09:21 Bonzodog Document Storage Facility
09:22 KingBahamut|Work Kamion , http://doc.gwos.org
09:22 lucas what about adding a field on LP like "I agree to switch to PD for my wiki
content" ?
09:22 sabdfl dunno if moin helps us beyond that
09:22 Kamion Bonzodog: thanks
09:22 elmo mdke: if we can identify indviduals who've made edits to the wiki, I think
we should do both
09:22 elmo and cc:pd etc. is fine by me too
09:22 mdke elmo, sabdfl, would someone do a script for that?
09:22 Kamion I think due legal notice probably requires at least the latter, though IANAL
obviously
09:22 robotgeek elmo: just email everyone, saying that that if you have contributed, read
this email?
09:22 hno73 robotgeek: +1
09:22 KingBahamut|Work robotgeek , thats a big email list I suspect
09:23 sabdfl if someone who knows moin can pull out all the contributor's LP id's or
WikiName's, we can get email addresses for them yes
09:23 hno73 much easier :)
09:23 mdke sabdfl, maybe spiv knows how to do it...
09:23 hno73 We would need to write a script to check all the edits
09:23 sabdfl mdke: ok, will you discuss that with him? we'll get it tasked and scheduled
if its going to take time
=== irvin [n=irvin@203.213.221.131] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:23 hno73 and then there was the migration from Zwiki ...
09:23 mdke sabdfl, sure, rock
09:23 sabdfl in the meanwhile, we should announce the planned change and coming emails
09:24 Kyral what does the Wiki use for a backend?
09:24 robotgeek Kyral: moin moin
09:24 hno73 in which all the edit history was left behind
09:24 sabdfl Kyral: LP for account details, text files for... the text files
09:24 hno73 (exists in backups though)
09:24 mdke hno73, if people haven't edited the wiki since then... they're really not
gonna care I'm thinking ;)
09:24 KingBahamut|Work mdke, your probably right about that
09:24 sabdfl hno73: good point. we probably lost all of that revision history in zwiki
09:25 robotgeek it does leave a vulnerable point (since we are doing this by the book)
09:25 hno73 sabdfl: it's still in a zope database somewhere, but extracting that is
likely non-trivial
09:25 hno73 in the form we want
09:25 mdke i don't think it is worth the effort
the e-mail that goes out should contain an explanation of the issue and a
09:25 Kamion rationale for why we think public domain is (a) a good idea and (b) not
intended as an attack on their intellectual property etc.
09:25 Kamion (or something like that)
09:25 zenrox agreed
09:26 mdke Kamion, we can prepare it on the wiki as a subpage of that spec if you like
09:26 sabdfl mdke: w.r.t. pages that currently have attribution, i don't think we need to
*remove* names, but we should make it clear that attribution is not required
09:26 hno73 Kamion: agree
09:26 Kamion mdke: works for me
09:26 sabdfl mdke: +1
09:26 sabdfl hno73: i don't think we need to trawl that far back, we can deal with any
cases that come out of the woodwork on a case-by-case basis
09:27 hno73 sabdfl: cool
09:27 sabdfl ok, did we get +1 from quorum?
09:27 mdke sabdfl, how about moving attribution to the bottom? :)
09:27 Kamion I think so, yes
09:27 sabdfl mdke: np
09:27 Kamion mdke: that's an editing task, and therefore WHATEVER :-)
09:27 mdke great, thanks very much y'all
09:27 sabdfl well done
09:27 hno73 that just leaves writing that script :)
When collecting names for e-mail, can one also use that to create a "roster
09:27 kjcole of contributors" for elsewhere in the wiki? (Or some other token
acknowledgement of contributions if or when attribution is removed from wiki
pages)?
09:28 mdke kjcole, the revision history for each page is only a click away
09:28 Kamion kjcole: if that could be maintained automatically by the wiki itself, I'd be
all in favour
09:28 Amaranth anyone up for some moin hacking? :)
=== mdke points frantically at the revision history link on each page
09:28 kjcole mdke, I was thinking of something a bit prettier, but it's a minor thing.
09:29 Kamion mdke: I can see the value in an automatically-generated contributors list
for each page distilled from that
09:29 mdke kjcole, also I think people can note their contributions on their homepage,
that is a nice way of doing things, IMO
09:29 Kamion that sounds like a pretty tiny moin hack
=== freemanen [n=freemane@c83-248-208-28.bredband.comhem.se] has left #ubuntu-meeting
["Konversation]
09:29 Kamion the revision history page already has several modes
09:29 mdke Kamion, that's a developing task, WHATEVER :-)
09:29 Kamion :-)
09:30 mdke sounds like a nice idea
09:30 sabdfl mdke: it would be nice if moin could automatically show the pages someone
has touched
09:30 sabdfl and the touchiness involved
09:30 sabdfl but we digress
09:30 mdke sabdfl, oh yeah that would be a cool macro
09:30 Bonzodog it's worth noting that the doc facility uses the MediaWiki software
09:31 sabdfl what other business do we have?
09:31 mdke new members
09:31 sabdfl when shall we three meet again, in thunder, lightning, or in 2006?
09:31 zenrox irc team formation
=== Kamion votes for 2006
09:31 Kamion although two weeks' time is 2006 anyway :)
09:31 Kamion new members
09:31 Kamion LucasNussbaum
=== hno73 looks at the moin file structure and sees that there is an edit-log file for each page,
so the parsing should be fairly simple
=== lucas is Lucas Nussbaum
09:32 lucas shall I post my summary ?
09:32 sabdfl clusters & grids!
09:32 sabdfl have you spoken with fabbione?
09:32 sabdfl go ahead with your summary
09:32 lucas https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucasNussbaum -
https://launchpad.net/people/nussbaum
24 years old, PhD student living in Grenoble (.fr). Long time Debian user.
Have been one of the "no-name-yet" beta testers, and have been using Ubuntu
09:32 lucas since then. Got interested in MOTU in september when I discovered that some
ruby packages weren't in good shape. Member of MOTURuby and Debian's
pkg-ruby-extras team, maintainer (but not DD) of a few packages in Debian,
for which I'm upstream.
Current work & plans inside Ubuntu: Help reduce the current MOTU bottleneck
(merges missing reviews, packages waiting in REVU), general MOTU work (esp.
09:32 lucas Ruby-related packages, but also others), help improve the MOTU process to
make it more efficient by writing useful tools (see my motutools work for
example).
09:33 lucas I haven't spoken with fabbione - he is in the same field ?
09:33 sabdfl fabbione is leading the ubuntu server team
09:33 ogra he is our server god
09:33 sabdfl and is very interested in clusters
09:34 sabdfl he did the oracle clusterfs work on ubuntu for example
09:34 sabdfl and i'm sure would love to hear from you
=== fabbione looks on earth from his server Olympus
09:34 fabbione yes
09:34 jjesse all hail the server god
09:34 sabdfl fabbione: you rock
09:34 fabbione lucas: you are welcome to contact me after the meeting
09:34 fabbione sabdfl: dude.. only thanks to you :)
09:34 lucas I should. I'm part of a french research project linking several clusters
together to reach 5000 nodes, and some clusters already use ubuntu
09:34 lucas fabbione: I will :)
09:34 fabbione lucas: great!
09:34 sabdfl any motu folks care to support lucas based on work done together?
09:35 sabdfl lucas: your wiki page is really excellent
09:35 zenrox agreed
09:35 sabdfl it gave me a very clear idea what you have already done and your interests
going forward
09:35 mdke yeah, nice work lucas
=== lucas hears the overwhelming support ;)
09:35 KingBahamut|Work lucas, I think ill have a chat with you later too if I can
lucas is very active in MOTU and even if we sometimes disagreed about
09:36 ogra topics, i enjoyed the discussions with him... they were always fruitful and
getting us forward ...
09:36 sabdfl ok. for membership, +1 from me on the basis of a solid contribution over a
long period
09:36 ogra a total +1 from my side
lucas: I'm glad you've stuck around, I remember talking with you about ruby
09:36 Kamion before breezy released when it was basically too late to do anything about
it
09:36 ogra and i know from \sh_away's and dholbachs too ...
09:36 ogra (even if i cant speak for them officially)
09:37 sabdfl it would be great to have rails rocking in dapper, is that something you're
interested in lucas?
09:37 lucas Kamion: I hope we will do better for dapper :)
09:37 sabdfl elmo?
09:37 lucas sabdfl: rails is difficult to package because of some issues related to
rubygems
09:37 Kamion +1 for lucas
09:37 lucas we are trying to make things moving with pkg-ruby-extras (debian team)
09:37 sabdfl ok
09:38 kjcole I guess I now get a vote. So from what I saw +1. (lucas makes my
contributions look pretty meager by comparison.)
=== ogra puts on the miniskirt and digs for the pompoms to cheer for azeem
09:38 elmo ack for lucas
09:38 OgMaciel congrats lucas
09:38 lucas thanks all :)
09:38 sabdfl welcome aboard
09:39 sabdfl azeem: ping
09:39 mdke welcome lucas, good work
=== ogra applauds lucas
09:39 Kamion lucas: BTW I'm sure Ian would be interested in directed feedback on how
AutomatedTesting and ruby interact
09:39 lucas Kamion: I already briefly talked with him, but I'm waiting to get a better
picture of this when he starts releasing some code
09:39 Kamion *nod*
09:39 ogra btw, is lifeless here ?
=== minghua [n=minghua@danube.mems.rice.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:40 zenrox ogra: nope
09:40 ogra azeem and lifeless have been working through the nights in MOTU recently ...
09:40 Kyral he's in #ubuntu-motu
09:40 sabdfl right now?
09:40 ogra he could give a good insight in azeems value in helping people at packaging
tasks :)
09:40 Kyral yah
09:41 seth_k|lappy sabdfl, lifeless is away, idle 7+ hours
09:41 ajmitch azeem has been a DD for quite awhile, and helped me with debian stuff in the
past :)
09:41 Kyral I dunno if he's away though, but his nick is there
09:41 ajmitch now we just have to find him..
09:41 sabdfl ok, he's away
09:41 sabdfl irvin: ping
=== irvin is IrvinPiraman
09:41 sabdfl irvin: you're up, would you give us a quick three-line summary of your
activities in ubuntu and your interest going forward?
09:42 irvin https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrvinPiraman -
https://launchpad.net/people/ippiraman
I'm 27, an Electrical Engineer by profession. Currently has a full-time job
at www.transco.ph. My first encounter with GNU/Linux was with Gentus Linux
09:42 irvin (installer bundled with ABIT mboards) in the mid-to-late-90's. I also took a
shot using Mandrake, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD mostly for fun and learning
experience only.
I came across Ubuntu since the Warty release but never really got serious
09:42 irvin with it until the release of Hoary Hedgehog when my printer worked out of
the box. I ditched Windows then has been tracking updates until today.
I was first involved with Ubuntu when I voluntarily tested the company-owned
Compaq Evo N110 laptop with Hoary until Breezy. I later learned of fellow
09:42 irvin Filipinos in the community namely jsgotangco, zakame, pusakat, etc. and
joined in the LocoTeam. As of today I am a volunteer member of Edubuntu,
Edubuntu Artwork, Ubuntu Team Philippines, Ubuntu Tagalog Translators,
Ubuntu Marketing Team, and the UbuntuGIS.
09:42 sabdfl irvin: can you think of ways we can help the broadband-impaired to be active
in the ubuntu community?
09:43 irvin i like the idea of debian having cds that can be downloaded and installed
offline
09:43 ogra we have jigdo ...
09:43 irvin i want to see it in ubuntu too
irvin: I guess PPP is related too; if you know the internals of the
09:44 Kamion installer, or know people on dialup who do, I'd like to work with them to
brush up our PPP support
09:44 Amaranth there is a DVD with all of main on it, isn't there?
09:44 ogra yup
09:44 Kamion it's pretty ropey at the moment because most of the people working on the
installer are on broadband
09:44 ogra Amaranth, but there are people who want universe on DVD ...
09:44 irvin orga indeed
09:44 Amaranth i wish the universe fit on a DVD...
09:45 KingBahamut|Work Amaranth , I didnt think it could fit on a DVD
09:45 sabdfl ok, +1 for membership for irvin from me, based on translation work
09:45 zenrox Amaranth: also too some ppl on 56k dont have dvd readers eaither
I think they could be more involved if it were easier to downlad packages on
09:45 jenda one computer and use the media (a CD) as a repository on the broadband
impaired PC
09:45 jjesse not all of us in the U.S. are broadband either
09:45 irvin i'm also thinking of having a web-based apt interface
09:46 robotgeek irvin: +1
09:46 irvin so even windows users can download packages and its dependencies, zip it,
burn and install later
09:46 ogra +++ for taking on the GIS stuff ... and ++ for edubuntu indeed ;)
09:46 robotgeek it would help sort out the chicken and egg problem, "how do i get this
without internet"
09:47 Kamion irvin: http://packages.ubuntu.com/, sort of (third-party service)
09:47 robotgeek Kamion: no dependencies atumatically
09:47 Kamion I know it's not quite the same
09:47 irvin Kamion, not very useful, since you'll have to manually download dependencies
09:47 Kamion robotgeek: sure, but it does link to all the dependencies at least
09:47 robotgeek Kamion: to a new user, it is quite daunting
09:48 Kamion but yeah, improving that would be good, just saying it's not *entirely*
missing, just kinda poor at the moment :)
irvin: that would be great - in combination with an easy way to install
09:48 jenda packages from CD, that would be a solution for dialuppers and the
internet-less
09:48 mvo irvin: I like your idea a lot, I would love to talk to you about it later
09:48 irvin robotgeek, indeed. i remember getting xchm
09:48 ogra gdebi-ng could be something like that
09:48 irvin thanks mvo
09:48 ogra ;)
09:48 Kamion +1 for irvin based on translation work and sustained advocacy, anyway
09:48 Kyral Could we put a "Download all depends" link in Packages.ubuntu.com?
09:48 robotgeek Kyral: :)
09:48 irvin Kyral, that would be nice
09:49 irvin Kyral, but how to deal with updates?
09:49 Amaranth make gdebi detect CDs with packages on them with some hal/g-v-m magic
09:49 azeem uhm, hi
09:49 ogra Kyral, depends might also have dependencys
09:49 Amaranth irvin: binary diffs would be nice
09:49 Amaranth oh, azeem is here!
09:49 Kyral irvin: you mean to the packages?
09:49 ogra hey azeem
09:49 jjesse updates are a pain, some of us just borrow works high speed internet to
update
09:49 azeem well, technically, I'm at a christmas party
09:49 Kyral ogra: if we assume they have ubuntu-desktop installed, then we can assume
what packages they have already
09:49 robotgeek irvin: most of the times, it's people without internet. they just want to
get an additional package
09:50 irvin Kyral, if there's an update package
09:50 Kyral irvin: you mean like every two weeks or so?
09:50 sabdfl elmo: irvin?
09:50 elmo ack
09:50 ogra Kyral, you cant always assume they have u-d installed ... but thats nothing
for a CC meeting now ..
09:50 Kyral ogra: agreed, we can talk in #ubuntu-motu
09:50 irvin i'm subscribed to breezy-changes so i know if there's any updates i need to
download
09:51 sabdfl ok, welcome aboard irvin. azeem, you're up!
09:51 mdke welcome irvin
09:51 irvin thanks all
09:52 irvin happy holidays!
09:52 ogra congrats irvin
09:52 ogra :)
09:53 irvin thanks ogra
09:53 ogra azeem ?
09:54 zenrox azeem: we need 3 lines about you
09:54 sabdfl ok, let's go on without azeem
09:54 zenrox yep
09:55 sabdfl Ananda Putra?
09:55 sabdfl lucasd?
09:56 sabdfl lucasd has done a LOT of translation by the looks of things
09:56 sabdfl pity he's not here
09:56 zenrox lol
09:56 sabdfl do we have any other member candidates here?
09:56 OgMaciel sabdfl, he's been busy helping out the Brazilian team
09:56 sabdfl OgMaciel: yes, i can see, and he seems to be doing a lot
09:56 OgMaciel it is a shame he's not here
09:56 sabdfl he would definitely get my +1 on membership
09:56 kjcole (Both the lucas's of today had great stuff.)
09:57 OgMaciel sabdfl, I have actually lured quite a few translators these days
09:57 sabdfl :-)
09:57 OgMaciel ;)
09:57 sabdfl see, shiny rosetta ...
09:57 lucas :-)
09:57 sabdfl ok folks, can we wrap up?
09:57 ogra looks like :)
09:57 zenrox i have new businness
09:57 Kamion zenrox: go for it
09:57 sabdfl zenrox: what's up?
09:57 zenrox i think thare shuld be an irc team
09:58 Kyral We were discussing this in #ubuntuforums just before the meeting
09:58 Bonzodog If I can just interject, zenrox is dyslexic
=== sistpoty [n=sistpoty@ubuntu/member/sistpoty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:58 zenrox yep
09:58 Kyral Bonzodog: makes no difference
09:58 mdke relevancy?
09:58 Amaranth IRC Team?
09:58 Amaranth We kind of already do, no?
09:58 Bonzodog just to excuse the spelling errors
09:59 Amaranth I mean, we have the ops in #ubuntu and such.
09:59 mdke Bonzodog, ah, no one spells nylthing right in irc :)
09:59 mdke anything
09:59 zenrox but i think it would be nice to intertwine all the #ubuntu channels with
rules (per channel) and have a central team controling it
=== mdke proves own point
09:59 Kyral Amaranth: I think he meant a way to monitor all the channels
09:59 hybrid mdke: rofl
09:59 Amaranth ah
09:59 Kyral Like put a Logbot in official channels
09:59 Amaranth so one set of ops for all channels and ubuntubot in all channel
09:59 zenrox Kyral: basckly we
09:59 zenrox yes
09:59 ogra isnt that the case ?
09:59 Kamion we already do, although there are channel limits that it's running up
against
10:00 mdke Kyral, there are logbots in all channels that want one more or less
10:00 Kyral Kamion: Logbot1 Logbot2?
10:00 zenrox Amaranth: yes
10:00 Kamion I think it can only join up to 20 channels or so, but talk to fabbione if
it's missing one
10:00 Kyral mdke: ah
10:00 mdke Kamion, smurf runs one too for locochannels
10:00 Kamion right
10:00 OgMaciel sabdfl, I'd like to bring something up too... BUG
5278 (https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/5278)
10:00 Bonzodog the #ubuntuforums channel does not have one
10:00 ogra for edubuntu we have the officiall fabbione bot in #edubuntu and the LoCoBot
in the localized channels ...
10:00 Amaranth I've had people ask me to get rid of trolls in such in #kubuntu before, but
I'm only an op in #ubuntu
10:00 mdke Bonzodog, log bots are pretty easy
10:01 smurf You can teach the bot to connect more than once
10:01 zenrox as i dont know how to form a team id like help to set this up
10:01 Kyral Could all members have some level of access? *prepares to hide*
10:01 smurf mine has three freenode connections open ATM :-/
10:01 Amaranth Kyral: That'd get complicated.
10:01 zenrox and help set up the rules and regs and etc...
10:01 sabdfl elmo: what's the right process to update an @ubuntu.com email address for
OgMaciel's bug?
10:01 Kamion Kyral: I'm inclined to think that integrating Launchpad membership with IRC
is likely to be just waaaaaaaay too much pain
10:01 Amaranth Kyral: The only feasible solution would be to have all the members link to a
nick.
10:02 Amaranth Kyral: But freenode has a limit on how many linked nicks you can have.
10:02 Kyral actually I need ping elmo about my @ubuntu.com as well
10:02 Kamion and ties us very much to Freenode in case we ever want to move off
10:02 elmo sabdfl: the auto-update stuff is down atm, due to some refactoring - I'm
working on it with SteveA
10:02 Kyral Kamion: Don't get zenrox started about that one
10:02 elmo if updates are important, they can bug me and I'll do it by hand
10:02 zenrox Kamion: that is also part of my propsal of forming the irc team
10:02 Kyral Kamion: I had to talk him outta it earlier
10:02 Kamion Kyral: I'm aware it's come up before
10:02 zenrox maby at some point ubuntu can have its own servers
10:03 zenrox but not at this point tho
10:03 Amaranth bad idea
10:03 Amaranth everyone is on freenode :P
10:03 Amaranth except those silly GNOME and Mozilla guys
10:03 Kyral yah thats what I said
10:03 Kamion I kind of like being able to use IRC even when the datacentre's being
deluged with CD image downloads :P
10:03 zenrox just need to form the irc team and have the team discuss this and other
issues that relate to freenode and ubuntu
10:03 Kyral I mean we could contribute a server to Freenode
10:03 OgMaciel elmo, would it be possible for you to manually change it for me? Please?
10:03 mdke OgMaciel, a LP admin can do it I think
10:04 elmo mdke: no, they can't
10:04 zenrox Kyral: yes but team needs to be formed first
10:04 mdke elmo, ah my bad
10:04 sabdfl mdke: no, the script that maps from lp to the alias file is in elmo's hands,
and is down right now
10:04 Kamion ok, I'm kind of unclear as to what this team would be doing
10:04 robotgeek same here
10:04 OgMaciel I've been doing a lot of advocating and would like to be able to give them
my Ubuntu email ;(
10:04 Amaranth donating a server doesn't get you special privileges
10:04 sabdfl when that script is sorted, then updating LP should update your email addy
10:04 mdke cool
10:04 zenrox Kamion: manging the irc channels, disputes ,etc..
10:05 Kamion we have the code of conduct for basic rules and regulations already
10:05 Kyral sabdfl: ah okay I'll wait instead of bugging elmo :D
10:05 zenrox Kamion: but that dont apply to every cahnnel on irc
10:05 Kamion zenrox: applies to #ubuntu*
10:05 zenrox that is ubuntu related
10:05 sabdfl OgMaciel, Kyral: no, please bug elmo to fix it for you today
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10:05 sabdfl rather than waiting
10:05 sabdfl hey ian_brasil
10:05 OgMaciel sabdfl, sounds good to me ;)
10:05 keyes_ hello
10:05 ian_brasil sabdfl:ola
10:05 sabdfl has the drought cleared?
and given the number of channels, doesn't it scale better to have channels
10:05 Kamion managing themselves where possible, rather than trying to have one team do
it all?
10:05 zenrox Kamion: to a point but what about like spam some ubuntu channels alow it
some dont
10:06 zenrox also too maby a good wiki page to list ruls for eatche channel
10:06 robotgeek zenrox: #ubuntuforums is the only channgel which don't comply, AFAIK
10:06 ian_brasil it has been raining here for a week solid and the rivers are rising
10:06 zenrox and a central command structure for channels
10:06 Kamion I think we're in danger of overengineering here ...
10:06 OgMaciel elmo, could you? ;)
10:06 zenrox robotgeek: the 1 execption
10:06 Kamion IRC channels aren't a military structure :)
10:07 zenrox Kamion: i know
10:07 mdke Kamion, +1
10:07 Kyral elmo: if you have time, could you set my redirect? Thanks
10:07 keyes_ the DADVSI law is voted now in France, look
rtsp://real-live.event.oleane.net/broadcast/live/encoder/assemblee/assnat.rm
10:07 Kamion and trying to turn them into one is generally a doomed enterprise
10:07 Kyral mdke: I think its more about making sure there is an active op in
everychannel
10:07 robotgeek the COC applies in #ubuntu, and pretty much everyone sticks to it
10:07 keyes_ if this is voted, this is the end of PLF, VLC, and lot of other open source
softwares
10:07 zenrox but you know what i mean if thare is a ban that some one wants to do in a
channel thay can go to the irc team and ban and valadea it
10:07 zenrox remove bans etc...
10:07 Kamion I've got no objection to clearer rules, and strong channel ops
=== Mirno [n=mirspcm@office.spcmnet.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:08 Kamion zenrox: per Freenode policy, that's the job of the channel opts
10:08 Kamion er, ops
10:08 mdke Kyral, i don't think we should decide that for all ubuntu channels
10:08 zenrox hence the team formation
10:08 Kyral zenrox: are you referring to my "situation" a couple weeks ago?
10:08 mdke Kyral, think about all the loco channels
10:08 Mirno Hi
10:08 zenrox Kyral: yes
10:08 lucas keyes_: asking english speaking people to watch a french minister talking in
french might not be a good idea :)
10:08 seth_k|lappy I think more than an IRCTeam, we need a central place to see who has ops on
what channels, maybe apply for op privileges on a channel, etc.
10:08 elmo Kyral: have you even set email up in LP?
10:08 seth_k|lappy To see who is available to get rid of a problem user
10:08 Kyral elmo: you mean addys?
10:08 Kamion if this is a proposal coming from a wide cross-section of existing #ubuntu*
channel ops to try to centralise how they do things, that's one thing
10:09 zenrox Kyral: had bine baned in #Ubuntu 2 weeks ago and i could not get ahold of
the person who di the ban
=== Ju`_ [n=Ju@AAubervilliers-153-1-32-21.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:09 keyes_ lucas: sorry ;)
10:09 Kamion seth_k|lappy: chanserv tells you who has what access levels, doesn't it?
10:09 Mirno lucas, it's quite a bad timeing for a CC :) for french people
10:09 zenrox and if thare is an irc team we can ealy contect the team to get the ban
lifted or refined
10:09 Kamion 21:09 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- An access level of [1] is required for
[ACCESS LIST] on #ubuntu
10:09 seth_k|lappy Kamion, you need access level 1 to use /msg chanserv access #channel list
IIRC
10:09 Kamion hmm, maybe not
10:09 seth_k|lappy yeah, I was right
10:09 Kamion zenrox: similarly you can contact the ops
10:10 ogra Mirno, hmm, for germans its fine ... whats wrong with france ?
10:10 Kamion I think that access restriction should be lifted so that people can see who
the ops are
10:10 zenrox Kamion: i did the person who wasnt around
10:10 lucas Mirno: quite good, it is 22:10 here
10:10 zenrox culd not remove the ban
10:10 mdke Kamion, +1
10:10 seth_k|lappy Kamion, I don't know if you can. I think that's a freenode thing
10:10 ogra Mirno, i prefer 9pm to 5am ;)
10:10 Kamion zenrox: an IRC team has no power without the cooperation of the channel
operators
10:10 robotgeek Kamion: generally you can see who the ops are by doing !ops
10:10 mdke seth_k|lappy, sure you can
10:10 Kamion zenrox: therefore this proposal has to come from the channel operators
10:10 seth_k|lappy mdke, alright
10:10 Kamion robotgeek: in channels with bots that recognise !commands, sure
10:10 zenrox Kamion: at least 1 person from can ops will be on the team
10:10 zenrox cachanel
10:10 Kamion zenrox: have you discussed this with them?
10:11 zenrox yes
10:11 robotgeek Kamion: yup, ubotu is good to have around
10:11 Kamion zenrox: are any of the relevant people here?
10:11 zenrox no as usual
10:11 Mirno ogra: it's RIGHT NOW, the debat/vote for DAVIDSI law ... Law that will
forbid free software and reverse engeneering etc, in France.
10:11 mdke Mirno, #ubuntu-offtopic pls
10:11 ogra Mirno, ask them to postpone it until we're done ...
10:11 Kamion perhaps you can put together a wiki page with a list of the people involved
here
10:11 Amaranth relevant people?
=== keyes_ french politics are bastards
10:11 Kamion and the channels they're responsible for
10:11 Amaranth i'm in op in #ubuntu, does that count?
10:12 zenrox Amaranth: yes
10:12 Amaranth err, an op
10:12 zenrox you count
10:12 Amaranth i think a team would be useless, actually
10:12 Kamion that way we can have some kind of an idea of who wants to form a team and
cooperate in shared management of channels
10:12 zenrox Amaranth: but want about in the long run
10:12 Amaranth there has only been one time i wished i had op in another channel
10:12 Kyral Amaranth: #ubuntuforums?
10:12 Kamion there are too many channels and operators for a proposal from just one or
two people to make sense on its own, IMHO
10:12 Amaranth Kyral: that's not an official channel, really
10:13 lucasvo I think the bigger problem is that too many peopla are in the channels
10:13 zenrox Kamion: agreed
10:13 sabdfl ok, can we ask zenrox & co to work on that? do you need any specific
decision or support from the CC?
10:13 zenrox sabdfl: i was told that i have to get approvil to get this set up and for
the team but i will come back with a list off ppl and rally more support
10:14 zenrox off=of
10:14 Amaranth keyes_: dang, no subtitles :P
10:14 mdke zenrox, if you work on a spec, it will be much clearer
10:14 zenrox mdke: yep i need help
10:14 mdke it's difficult to judge just like this
10:14 keyes_ sorry
10:14 sabdfl i like the idea of an IRC team, so +1 from me for that, but you'll need to
come back with a formal proposal, speling not important
10:14 zenrox lots of it
10:14 Kyral lol
10:14 zenrox hehehehe
10:14 sabdfl ok
zenrox: ok, generally we need to have a clear statement of goals and list of
10:14 Kamion initial people interested before approving it, so that we know it's starting
off on a good footing
10:14 zenrox ok
10:15 Kamion zenrox: but you can certainly start informal collaboration without having to
get CC approval for that
10:15 sabdfl zenrox: thanks for taking the lead on this
=== zenrox bows to the will
10:15 keyes_ anarchy will beat ^^
10:15 sabdfl ok folks, any other business?
10:15 Kamion zenrox: we don't ban people from talking to each other and just doing useful
stuff ;-)
10:15 zenrox Kamion: i know that
10:15 Kyral zenrox: or disagreeing with Forum Admins ;P
10:15 Bonzodog Are people aware of the Ubuntu Document Storage Facility and what it does?
10:15 Mirno i'm sorry did I miss the "forum' topic ?
10:16 mdke Bonzodog, yes
10:16 mdke Mirno, yes
10:16 Kamion Mirno: apparently resolved, so not being discussed here
10:16 Mirno Kamion: ok
10:16 jenda Bonzodog: Maybe you should inform - I was surprised to see how many people
weren't
10:16 Bonzodog I would just like to give a little briefing on it. I know you are aware mdke
10:16 Kamion Bonzodog: today was the first I'd heard of it
10:16 Mirno never heard of it
10:17 Bonzodog the website: http://doc.gwos.org
10:17 sabdfl Bonzodog: ?
10:17 Bonzodog It is a project run by KingBahamut
10:17 Kamion FWIW the web site isn't responding to me
10:17 ogra same here
10:17 seth_k|lappy really slow here
10:17 Bonzodog my launchpad page:
10:17 kjcole Kamion, ditto
10:18 Mirno Bonzodog: ah this ..
10:18 Bonzodog http://www.launchpad]
10:18 seth_k|lappy the udsf contributes to dilution... why can't the wiki be used?
10:18 jjesse +1 seth_k|lappy
10:18 Bonzodog https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bonzodog
10:18 Bonzodog is me
10:18 mdke seth_k|lappy, please don't start this, it's late already
10:18 hybrid duh
10:18 Kyral seth_k|lappy: KB has had some...disagreements with the Wiki staff it seems.
Lets put it that way
10:19 zenrox so are we backly done here
=== zenrox bows out to eat
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10:19 sabdfl Bonzodog: ok, the site seems to be down now
we are part of team bahamut and we are working alongside the wiki and mdke
10:19 Bonzodog to put together a second wiki that is more how-to's and basic documentation
onusing ubuntu
I can see why the forum community wants it's own wiki, but it would be cool
10:19 hno73 if they had the same markup so we could move content between the wikis more
easily
10:19 Bonzodog sabdfl: the site is under attack
10:19 sabdfl can i ask you to put a document together that describes what you are doing
and put it on the agenda for the next CC meeting?
my thought is just that the "official" Ubuntu forums should be encouraging
10:20 seth_k|lappy use of the *official* Ubuntu wiki, not some third-party project. My
objection doesn't really relate to the doc itself.
10:20 hno73 esp, now if they both become PD
10:20 Bonzodog and has been a few times
=== thesaltydog [n=fabio@ubuntu/member/thesaltydog] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:20 thesaltydog am I late? sorry..
10:20 sabdfl seth_k|lappy: yes, but there is room for other wiki's, for example the loco
teams often create them
10:20 Amaranth thesaltydog: the meeting is pretty much over
10:20 thesaltydog ah..ok
10:21 thesaltydog I thought it was at 20:00 utc
=== hno73 runs several moin wikis which don't seem to get attacked
10:21 irvin the docteam is pretty handicapped at the moment, we would welcome your
contributions Bonzodog
10:21 Bonzodog why ours is being attacked is a mystery
Bonzodog: why would the site be attacked? if there is a controversy in the
10:21 sabdfl forums or irc, please ask both sides to state their case in the wiki and
bring it to the next CC meeting
=== keyes_ is now known as keyes
10:21 sabdfl thesaltydog: it was ;-)
10:21 Riddell Amaranth: I'm happy to make any responsible person an op in #kubuntu but I
don't know how much you're in there
10:21 hno73 In fact I've moved two wikis from media to moin due to spam infestation
10:21 Bonzodog Kingbahmut has more on it
10:21 Kyral sabdfl: there is a small....issue in that
10:21 thesaltydog hi sabdfl
10:21 mdke hno73, :) go moin!
10:21 Amaranth Riddell: Basically never. But it seems like you're more likely to find an op
in #ubuntu than #kubuntu
10:22 Amaranth Riddell: That was a while ago though.
=== hno73 is a moin zelot :)
10:22 seth_k|lappy Amaranth, I'm in there quite a few hours a day, 8-10 usually
10:22 robotgeek Riddell: i'm there usually, now that i am using kubuntu :)
10:22 Riddell seth_k|lappy: that's why you're on op :)
sabdfl, of course there is room; I'm not saying that the udsf should be
asked to stop or something. sabdfl, however, the official Ubuntu Forums
10:23 seth_k|lappy encourage the use of this site instead of the official wiki. It was simply
my opinion that an Ubuntu resource that was deemed "official" should
encourage the use of official Ubuntu-sanctioned support documents.
10:23 robotgeek seth_k|lappy: +1
10:23 Amaranth seth_k|lappy: There seemed to be an issue with the docs getting moved to the
official wiki.
10:23 Amaranth seth_k|lappy: Sounded like it was basically formatting issues.
10:23 sabdfl seth_k|lappy: agreed. we need to assess if the UDSF serves a real puspose,
then that could become official for that purpose
10:23 Bonzodog I was hoping that the two wikis would be able to work together
10:24 sabdfl i know the docteam have wanted a more stable platform than a wiki
10:24 mdke Bonzodog, the markup is not very compatible
10:24 sabdfl what i don't like is the idea of two docteams :-)
10:24 Bonzodog as we are a resource of how-to's and basic documentation
10:24 sabdfl anyhow, this is a matter that requires some detailed background
10:24 seth_k|lappy Riddell, yeah, that was just in response to Amaranth saying that ops in
#kubuntu were hard to find
10:24 lucasvo if you say the the 2nd wiki is for howto & doc, what is the official wiki
for?
10:24 Bonzodog we use MediaWiki as our software
10:24 mdke lucasvo, they are both for that
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10:24 sabdfl Bonzodog: please write up the rationale and vision of the UDSF, and get
docteam and wiki team commentary alongside it
10:24 Bonzodog which powers wikipedia
10:24 Bonzodog I will do
10:25 sabdfl we can discuss it when we meet again
10:25 Bonzodog and we bring it to the next meeting
10:25 sabdfl cool
10:25 irvin that would be nice
10:25 sabdfl ok. kamion, elmo, friends, thank you!MeetingLogs/CC_2005-12-20 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:40:57 by localhost)