08:59 Kamion           I've pinged sabdfl, hopefully he'll be here in a minute
08:59 Kamion           elmo: here?
08:59 FLeiXiuS         mdke: Ahh you are here :-)
08:59 Kamion           mako has mail, but I have no idea if he'll be around
08:59 mdke             FLeiXiuS, ?
=== kjcole [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== apokryphos [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:00 raphink          :)
09:00 FLeiXiuS         mdke: Nothing :-P
=== paulvg [n=void@] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:01 elmo             Kamion: yeah
09:02 jenda            so... the cauntdown is over... where's the meeting?
=== darkmatter [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:02 zenrox           jenda:  here
09:02 Amaranth         jenda: waiting for CC members to arive
09:02 zenrox           yep
09:02 Amaranth         jenda: we need 3 of them
09:02 Kyral            Just calm down
09:02 Kamion           elmo: Mark in the office?
=== P3L|C4N0 [n=gcamposm@] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:02 jenda            :)
=== lucasvo [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== zenrox sits in a chair around the CC table
=== jenda sits in the throne just next to ya
09:03 elmo             Kamion: not sure, I'm @ home
=== hybrid sits in a CC members chair
=== manicka [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Kyral sighs
=== paulvg joins the audience
=== sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== lucasvo stays at the door and will have a look at CC
09:03 sabdfl           evening all
09:03 paulvg           hi
09:03 Kyral            hey Mark
09:03 Bonzodog         hi
09:03 jenda            there he is :), hello
09:03 zenrox           evning sabdfl
09:03 KingBahamut|Work good day
09:03 manicka          hi
09:04 FLeiXiuS         good evening sabdfl
09:04 teroedni         hello sabdfl:)
09:04 raphink          hi sabdfl
09:04 ogra             UbuntuForumDiscussion (now resolved)  ???
09:04 FLeiXiuS         Alright lets get down to business :-)
09:04 hybrid           sabdfl: ya act like ya started ubuntu or something ... :p
09:04 ogra             really ?
09:04 Kamion           ah, right, let's start then
09:04 Kamion           wiki licensing
09:04 Kamion           oh, glad to hear the forums issue is resolved, btw
09:04 mdke             hi all
=== sabdfl reads the page, sorry for being slow
09:04 Kamion           congratulations to all involved there on finding middle ground
09:04 kjcole           Hiya.
09:05 Kamion           mdke: wanna give a quick precis?
09:05 Amaranth         ogra: yeah, we got it figured out (mostly)
09:05 mdke             Kamion, sabdfl did you have a chance to read the spec?
09:05 ogra             cool !
09:05 KingBahamut|Work aye Kamion
09:05 sabdfl           Amaranth: well done
=== Amaranth had almost nothing to do with it
09:05 Kyral            Yah I think the only problem is the small fued between Seveas and Arnieboy
09:05 Kamion           mdke: only very briefly, still reading
09:05 mdke             Kamion, cool, i'll summarise while you are
09:06 paulvg           a pity seveas aint here
09:06 sabdfl           ok
09:06 Amaranth         seveas? i thought it was me and arnieboy :)
09:06 Amaranth         anyway, next topic
09:06 sabdfl           mdke: how will we integrate items that are not in the public domain?
=== jjesse [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:07 mdke             sabdfl, that's the outstanding issue on the spec :)
09:07 mdke             one of two options
09:07 hno73            sabdfl: items already in the wiki or new items?
09:07 mdke             *three
09:07 sabdfl           hno73: both
09:08 mdke             ok new items would be no problem
09:08 mdke             because they would be added on the basis of being put in the public domain
09:08 Kyral            I thought it was GFDL...
09:08 mdke             old items are the tricky bit
09:08 Kamion           wikipedia had a similar issue and had to go around contacting everyone, IIRC
09:08 sabdfl           licence interop is complex, and i can see the value of saying "ok, let's
                       basically get out of the way and not add any new barriers"
09:08 hno73            A notice on the edit page would take care of new items
=== mdke nods at hno73
09:08 mdke             as for old items, as i say, i think there are 3 options
09:08 mdke             1. go around contacting all users
09:09 sabdfl           hno73: +1, whatever we decide, should be clearly stated on the edit page for
                       future reference
09:09 mdke             2. remove everything
09:09 mdke             3. assume that all current material has already been made public domain, and
                       not bother asking everyone
09:09 KingBahamut|Work mdke: on the UDSF we just reference back to you, because of those issues...
09:09 Kamion           I'm definitely not keen on 2. - lots of work for negative gain in the short
09:09 mdke             yeah 2 is out for me
09:09 mdke             i like 3, with an implementation for resolving any potential disputes in a
                       nice way
09:09 sabdfl           -2 on 2 :-)
09:10 Kamion           3. sounds like it requires checking with a lawyer :(
09:10 mdke             Kamion, o.o
09:10 Amaranth         I'd think 3 would be good. Default to public domain and if anyone doesn't
                       like that they need to speak up.
                       Would it be worth anything to also have something similar to the CoC signing
09:10 kjcole           that attempts to make sure folks acknowledge that they've read and
                       understand it?
09:10 sabdfl           3 has the feel "woooo pretend this is all cooool"
09:10 sabdfl           Amaranth: you can't just nationalise someone else's property
09:10 Kyral            umm...excuse me for being unknowledgable, but is the GFDL complient with the
                       Wiki License?
09:10 zenrox           i think if you post it on a web page it is public domain
09:11 zenrox           imho
09:11 elmo             sabdfl: that's arguable when they dumped their property in your yard
09:11 sabdfl           Kyral: we don't have a wiki licence, that's what's caused this confusion
                       I can see your argument that wikis are naturally collaborative
09:11 Kamion           do-what-you-like documents, but authors often take quite a proprietorial
                       attitude to documentation
09:11 hno73            #1 is technically doable since we have people's login email addresses
09:11 Kyral            sabdfl: ah
09:11 mdke             zenrox, that's not correct, but you can argue that with a wiki, it is
09:11 sabdfl           elmo: arguable == lawyer's fees
09:11 lucas            what about (1) for a month, then (2) or (3) on a contributor by contributor
                       basis ? (do we have full history for all pages ?)
09:11 sabdfl           is the website content under a specific licence?
                       there's a variation on (3), which is to assume public domain, send out a
09:11 elmo             wide announce, and ask for anyone who objects to contact us, and we'll deal
                       with that material on a case by case basis
09:11 Amaranth         Can you send an email to everyone that's contributed, wait 2 or so weeks,
                       move everything to public domain unless someone speaks up?
09:11 KingBahamut|Work sabdfl , then CC:PD it and make a reasonable assessment to the userbase ?
                       Kamion, i look at it like this: not many people will complain if we do 3. If
09:12 mdke             they do, and we are open to resolving the problem nicely, like removing it
                       if they are insistent, then there will be absolutely NP
09:12 Kamion           elmo: I prefer that option
09:12 elmo             sabdfl: over a wiki page?  vs. the crap we have in multiverse?  I don't
                       think it's a remotely sane comparison
09:12 sabdfl           yes, we can announce and wait for comment, but then we could do that with
                       any licence, not just PD
09:12 mdke             elmo, exactly my view too
09:12 elmo             sabdfl: (but it's not my money ;)
09:12 Kamion           mdke: I think we need to give due notice as elmo suggests ...
09:12 mdke             Kamion, yes that sounds fine too
09:12 sabdfl           if we impose any licence at this stage, we have to announce widely and wait
                       for comments
09:13 KingBahamut|Work Kamion, give the user time to respond, perhaps, yes?
09:13 Kamion           KingBahamut|Work: indeed
09:13 sabdfl           so, why CC:PD rather than CC-SA? don't we want a copyleft in there?
09:13 mdke             sabdfl, it won't get to needing lawyers fees, because no one is making any
                       profit anyway, but of course, it's nice to do things properly
09:13 hno73            I think #3 becomes more acceptable if we have made an honest attempt at #1
09:13 Kamion           we need to work out in advance what to do when (I'm pessimistic enough not
                       to say if) people object
09:13 Amaranth         KingBahamut|Work: Would you be willing to follow along with what the
                       official wiki does for
09:13 mdke             sabdfl, as for PD, it makes a lot of sense because the wiki material gets
                       fed into other documentation
                       sabdfl: I'd like to see it be possible for wiki content to be copied into
09:13 Kamion           the distribution as widely as possible, personally, and not to have to worry
                       about licensing conflicts
09:13 KingBahamut|Work sabdfl, it was my understanding that the documentation was to be as open as
                       Keep in mind that some people who are contributing to the wiki (a) would
09:14 kjcole           like a little pat on the head -- especially if it's the only thing they're
                       able to do, and (b) don't want their work "ruined" (a relative term).
09:14 Kamion           also on a more practical note I think more people are likely to object to a
                       copyleft, and the fewer objectors the better :)
09:14 KingBahamut|Work Amaranth , for the sake of openess , yes we are , thus the current stage of
09:14 Kamion           although that's just a gut feeling
09:14 mdke             kjcole, in the spec, I noted that they can make their own webpages for that
09:14 Kamion           kjcole: the wording of a relicensing mail would have to be very careful
09:15 lucas            CC-SA is not fully DFSG-compatible, AFAIK
09:15 KingBahamut|Work sabdfl , Id want what comes from UDSF to wiki and vicea versa to be happy
                       both ways....ergo open as possible
09:15 Kamion           but I think ultimately it *is* a wiki and people do need to expect that
                       other people will be working on it
09:15 sabdfl           do we want to be able to allow people to set a different licence on wiki
                       content they *initialise*, page by page?
09:15 kjcole           mdke, Sorry.  Missed that.
09:15 mdke             lucas, that's not a consideration here, but i definitely think PD is the way
                       to go
09:15 mdke             sabdfl, really not, that would be mayhem
09:15 sabdfl           lucas: neither is GFDL, and we have used that for books, for example
09:15 KingBahamut|Work mdke, correct sir
09:16 sabdfl           me, i prefer a copyleft, i think it's what makes free software go zoom
09:16 zenrox           i prefer copyleft
09:16 Kamion           the only way for different licences on different pages to be viable IMHO is
                       if the wiki has special code to display which licence each page is under
09:16 zenrox           too
09:16 Kyral            I like copyleft
09:16 mdke             sabdfl, i agree, but I think the wiki is a special case which calls for PD
09:16 KingBahamut|Work mdke, I aggree with you
09:17 mdke             we can't attribute every single contributor to every single page that gets
=== hno73 agrees with mdke, copyleft gets messy with text
09:17 sabdfl           mdke: does CC-SA require attribution?
09:17 mdke             and keeping track of different licences would be even worse
09:17 lucasvo          I quite like GFDL, since Linux is gpl, why should the the documentation be
                       opendomain(so every company can use it and make money with it)?
09:17 Kyral            doesn't the wiki have a changelog?
09:17 lucas            PD++ (and I'm usually a copyleft-fan)
09:17 paulvg           sabdfl: all currect cc licenses have attribution
09:17 hno73            Kyral: yes it does
09:18 sabdfl           lucasvo: you can make money with gpl and gfdl
09:18 paulvg           *current
                       lucasvo: I'd rather not get into the whole GFDL debate, but many people
09:18 Kamion           (myself included) don't think that the GFDL is in the same spirit as the
                       GPL; also it's GPL-incompatible which is very inconvenient
09:18 mdke             paulvg, that's not right
09:18 paulvg           there are older ones, but the latest version afaik always has attribution
09:18 mdke             sabdfl, cc-by-sa does, but i suppose a cc-sa doesn't
09:18 lucasvo          sabdfl: yes, I mean, changing it and do not give back
09:19 Kamion           particularly for any documentation that could end up as e.g. inline help in
                       GPL programs
09:19 mdke             paulvg, the public domain one certainly doesn't
09:19 paulvg           ofcourse
09:19 paulvg           but thats not really cc
09:19 paulvg           it existed before
09:19 lucas            sabdfl: there's no CC SA, it's CC BY-SA (see
09:19 mdke             thanks luca
09:20 mdke             s
                       ok. afaiac mdke is the master of the wiki and i am happy to follow his
09:20 sabdfl           recommendation. +1 on CC:PD from me, following the process elmo described.
                       kamion? elmo?
09:20 mdke             lol
=== mdke points at hno73
09:21 Kamion           that's fine by me, if somebody can take up the action of contacting
09:21 mdke             can i ask
09:21 Bonzodog         We already have CC:PD in place
09:21 Bonzodog         at UDSF
09:21 Kamion           sorry, UDSF?
09:21 mdke             elmo, was your suggestion to make a general announcement, or to attempt to
                       contact individuals?
09:21 sabdfl           we can easily contact contributors since we moved to launchpad auth for the
09:21 Bonzodog         Document Storage Facility
09:22 KingBahamut|Work Kamion ,
09:22 lucas            what about adding a field on LP like "I agree to switch to PD for my wiki
                       content" ?
09:22 sabdfl           dunno if moin helps us beyond that
09:22 Kamion           Bonzodog: thanks
09:22 elmo             mdke: if we can identify indviduals who've made edits to the wiki, I think
                       we should do both
09:22 elmo             and cc:pd etc. is fine by me too
09:22 mdke             elmo, sabdfl, would someone do a script for that?
09:22 Kamion           I think due legal notice probably requires at least the latter, though IANAL
09:22 robotgeek        elmo: just email everyone, saying that that if you have contributed, read
                       this email?
09:22 hno73            robotgeek: +1
09:22 KingBahamut|Work robotgeek , thats a big email list I suspect
09:23 sabdfl           if someone who knows moin can pull out all the contributor's LP id's or
                       WikiName's, we can get email addresses for them yes
09:23 hno73            much easier :)
09:23 mdke             sabdfl, maybe spiv knows how to do it...
09:23 hno73            We would need to write a script to check all the edits
09:23 sabdfl           mdke: ok, will you discuss that with him? we'll get it tasked and scheduled
                       if its going to take time
=== irvin [n=irvin@] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:23 hno73            and then there was the migration from Zwiki ...
09:23 mdke             sabdfl, sure, rock
09:23 sabdfl           in the meanwhile, we should announce the planned change and coming emails
09:24 Kyral            what does the Wiki use for a backend?
09:24 robotgeek        Kyral: moin moin
09:24 hno73            in which all the edit history was left behind
09:24 sabdfl           Kyral: LP for account details, text files for... the text files
09:24 hno73            (exists in backups though)
09:24 mdke             hno73, if people haven't edited the wiki since then... they're really not
                       gonna care I'm thinking ;)
09:24 KingBahamut|Work mdke, your probably right about that
09:24 sabdfl           hno73: good point. we probably lost all of that revision history in zwiki
09:25 robotgeek        it does leave a vulnerable point (since we are doing this by the book)
09:25 hno73            sabdfl: it's still in a zope database somewhere, but extracting that is
                       likely non-trivial
09:25 hno73            in the form we want
09:25 mdke             i don't think it is worth the effort
                       the e-mail that goes out should contain an explanation of the issue and a
09:25 Kamion           rationale for why we think public domain is (a) a good idea and (b) not
                       intended as an attack on their intellectual property etc.
09:25 Kamion           (or something like that)
09:25 zenrox           agreed
09:26 mdke             Kamion, we can prepare it on the wiki as a subpage of that spec if you like
09:26 sabdfl           mdke: w.r.t. pages that currently have attribution, i don't think we need to
                       *remove* names, but we should make it clear that attribution is not required
09:26 hno73            Kamion: agree
09:26 Kamion           mdke: works for me
09:26 sabdfl           mdke: +1
09:26 sabdfl           hno73: i don't think we need to trawl that far back, we can deal with any
                       cases that come out of the woodwork on a case-by-case basis
09:27 hno73            sabdfl: cool
09:27 sabdfl           ok, did we get +1 from quorum?
09:27 mdke             sabdfl, how about moving attribution to the bottom? :)
09:27 Kamion           I think so, yes
09:27 sabdfl           mdke: np
09:27 Kamion           mdke: that's an editing task, and therefore WHATEVER :-)
09:27 mdke             great, thanks very much y'all
09:27 sabdfl           well done
09:27 hno73            that just leaves writing that script :)
                       When collecting names for e-mail, can one also use that to create a "roster
09:27 kjcole           of contributors" for elsewhere in the wiki?  (Or some other token
                       acknowledgement of contributions if or when attribution is removed from wiki
09:28 mdke             kjcole, the revision history for each page is only a click away
09:28 Kamion           kjcole: if that could be maintained automatically by the wiki itself, I'd be
                       all in favour
09:28 Amaranth         anyone up for some moin hacking? :)
=== mdke points frantically at the revision history link on each page
09:28 kjcole           mdke, I was thinking of something a bit prettier, but it's a minor thing.
09:29 Kamion           mdke: I can see the value in an automatically-generated contributors list
                       for each page distilled from that
09:29 mdke             kjcole, also I think people can note their contributions on their homepage,
                       that is a nice way of doing things, IMO
09:29 Kamion           that sounds like a pretty tiny moin hack
=== freemanen [] has left #ubuntu-meeting
09:29 Kamion           the revision history page already has several modes
09:29 mdke             Kamion, that's a developing task, WHATEVER :-)
09:29 Kamion           :-)
09:30 mdke             sounds like a nice idea
09:30 sabdfl           mdke: it would be nice if moin could automatically show the pages someone
                       has touched
09:30 sabdfl           and the touchiness involved
09:30 sabdfl           but we digress
09:30 mdke             sabdfl, oh yeah that would be a cool macro
09:30 Bonzodog         it's worth noting that the doc facility uses the MediaWiki software
09:31 sabdfl           what other business do we have?
09:31 mdke             new members
09:31 sabdfl           when shall we three meet again, in thunder, lightning, or in 2006?
09:31 zenrox           irc team formation
=== Kamion votes for 2006
09:31 Kamion           although two weeks' time is 2006 anyway :)
09:31 Kamion           new members
09:31 Kamion           LucasNussbaum
=== hno73 looks at the moin file structure and sees that there is an edit-log file for each page,
so the parsing should be fairly simple
=== lucas is Lucas Nussbaum
09:32 lucas            shall I post my summary ?
09:32 sabdfl           clusters & grids!
09:32 sabdfl           have you spoken with fabbione?
09:32 sabdfl           go ahead with your summary
09:32 lucas   -
                       24 years old, PhD student living in Grenoble (.fr). Long time Debian user.
                       Have been one of the "no-name-yet" beta testers, and have been using Ubuntu
09:32 lucas            since then. Got interested in MOTU in september when I discovered that some
                       ruby packages weren't in good shape. Member of MOTURuby and Debian's
                       pkg-ruby-extras team, maintainer (but not DD) of a few packages in Debian,
                       for which I'm upstream.
                       Current work & plans inside Ubuntu: Help reduce the current MOTU bottleneck
                       (merges missing reviews, packages waiting in REVU), general MOTU work (esp.
09:32 lucas            Ruby-related packages, but also others), help improve the MOTU process to
                       make it more efficient by writing useful tools (see my motutools work for
09:33 lucas            I haven't spoken with fabbione - he is in the same field ?
09:33 sabdfl           fabbione is leading the ubuntu server team
09:33 ogra             he is our server god
09:33 sabdfl           and is very interested in clusters
09:34 sabdfl           he did the oracle clusterfs work on ubuntu for example
09:34 sabdfl           and i'm sure would love to hear from you
=== fabbione looks on earth from his server Olympus
09:34 fabbione         yes
09:34 jjesse           all hail the server god
09:34 sabdfl           fabbione: you rock
09:34 fabbione         lucas: you are welcome to contact me after the meeting
09:34 fabbione         sabdfl: dude.. only thanks to you :)
09:34 lucas            I should. I'm part of a french research project linking several clusters
                       together to reach 5000 nodes, and some clusters already use ubuntu
09:34 lucas            fabbione: I will :)
09:34 fabbione         lucas: great!
09:34 sabdfl           any motu folks care to support lucas based on work done together?
09:35 sabdfl           lucas: your wiki page is really excellent
09:35 zenrox           agreed
09:35 sabdfl           it gave me a very clear idea what you have already done and your interests
                       going forward
09:35 mdke             yeah, nice work lucas
=== lucas hears the overwhelming support ;)
09:35 KingBahamut|Work lucas, I think ill have a chat with you later too if I can
                       lucas is very active in MOTU and even if we sometimes disagreed about
09:36 ogra             topics, i enjoyed the discussions with him... they were always fruitful and
                       getting us forward ...
09:36 sabdfl           ok. for membership, +1 from me on the basis of a solid contribution over a
                       long period
09:36 ogra             a total +1 from my side
                       lucas: I'm glad you've stuck around, I remember talking with you about ruby
09:36 Kamion           before breezy released when it was basically too late to do anything about
09:36 ogra             and i know from \sh_away's and dholbachs too ...
09:36 ogra             (even if i cant speak for them officially)
09:37 sabdfl           it would be great to have rails rocking in dapper, is that something you're
                       interested in lucas?
09:37 lucas            Kamion: I hope we will do better for dapper :)
09:37 sabdfl           elmo?
09:37 lucas            sabdfl: rails is difficult to package because of some issues related to
09:37 Kamion           +1 for lucas
09:37 lucas            we are trying to make things moving with pkg-ruby-extras (debian team)
09:37 sabdfl           ok
09:38 kjcole           I guess I now get a vote.  So from what I saw +1.  (lucas makes my
                       contributions look pretty meager by comparison.)
=== ogra puts on the miniskirt and digs for the pompoms to cheer for azeem
09:38 elmo             ack for lucas
09:38 OgMaciel         congrats lucas
09:38 lucas            thanks all :)
09:38 sabdfl           welcome aboard
09:39 sabdfl           azeem: ping
09:39 mdke             welcome lucas, good work
=== ogra applauds lucas
09:39 Kamion           lucas: BTW I'm sure Ian would be interested in directed feedback on how
                       AutomatedTesting and ruby interact
09:39 lucas            Kamion: I already briefly talked with him, but I'm waiting to get a better
                       picture of this when he starts releasing some code
09:39 Kamion           *nod*
09:39 ogra             btw, is lifeless here ?
=== minghua [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:40 zenrox           ogra:  nope
09:40 ogra             azeem and lifeless have been working through the nights in MOTU recently ...
09:40 Kyral            he's in #ubuntu-motu
09:40 sabdfl           right now?
09:40 ogra             he could give a good insight in azeems value in helping people at packaging
                       tasks :)
09:40 Kyral            yah
09:41 seth_k|lappy     sabdfl, lifeless is away, idle 7+ hours
09:41 ajmitch          azeem has been a DD for quite awhile, and helped me with debian stuff in the
                       past :)
09:41 Kyral            I dunno if he's away though, but his nick is there
09:41 ajmitch          now we just have to find him..
09:41 sabdfl           ok, he's away
09:41 sabdfl           irvin: ping
=== irvin is IrvinPiraman
09:41 sabdfl           irvin:  you're up, would you give us a quick three-line summary of your
                       activities in ubuntu and your interest going forward?
09:42 irvin   -
                       I'm 27, an Electrical Engineer by profession. Currently has a full-time job
                       at My first encounter with GNU/Linux was with Gentus Linux
09:42 irvin            (installer bundled with ABIT mboards) in the mid-to-late-90's. I also took a
                       shot using Mandrake, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD mostly for fun and learning
                       experience only.
                       I came across Ubuntu since the Warty release but never really got serious
09:42 irvin            with it until the release of Hoary Hedgehog when my printer worked out of
                       the box. I ditched Windows then has been tracking updates until today.
                       I was first involved with Ubuntu when I voluntarily tested the company-owned
                       Compaq Evo N110 laptop with Hoary until Breezy. I later learned of fellow
09:42 irvin            Filipinos in the community namely jsgotangco, zakame, pusakat, etc. and
                       joined in the LocoTeam. As of today I am a volunteer member of Edubuntu,
                       Edubuntu Artwork, Ubuntu Team Philippines, Ubuntu Tagalog Translators,
                       Ubuntu Marketing Team, and the UbuntuGIS.
09:42 sabdfl           irvin: can you think of ways we can help the broadband-impaired to be active
                       in the ubuntu community?
09:43 irvin            i like the idea of debian having cds that can be downloaded and installed
09:43 ogra             we have jigdo ...
09:43 irvin            i want to see it in ubuntu too
                       irvin: I guess PPP is related too; if you know the internals of the
09:44 Kamion           installer, or know people on dialup who do, I'd like to work with them to
                       brush up our PPP support
09:44 Amaranth         there is a DVD with all of main on it, isn't there?
09:44 ogra             yup
09:44 Kamion           it's pretty ropey at the moment because most of the people working on the
                       installer are on broadband
09:44 ogra             Amaranth, but there are people who want universe on DVD ...
09:44 irvin            orga indeed
09:44 Amaranth         i wish the universe fit on a DVD...
09:45 KingBahamut|Work Amaranth , I didnt think it could fit on a DVD
09:45 sabdfl           ok, +1 for membership for irvin from me, based on translation work
09:45 zenrox           Amaranth:  also too some ppl on 56k dont have dvd readers eaither
                       I think they could be more involved if it were easier to downlad packages on
09:45 jenda            one computer and use the media (a CD) as a repository on the broadband
                       impaired PC
09:45 jjesse           not all of us in the U.S. are broadband either
09:45 irvin            i'm also thinking of having a web-based apt interface
09:46 robotgeek        irvin: +1
09:46 irvin            so even windows users can download packages and its dependencies, zip it,
                       burn and install later
09:46 ogra             +++ for taking on the GIS stuff ... and ++ for edubuntu indeed ;)
09:46 robotgeek        it would help sort out the chicken and egg problem, "how do i get this
                       without internet"
09:47 Kamion           irvin:, sort of (third-party service)
09:47 robotgeek        Kamion: no dependencies atumatically
09:47 Kamion           I know it's not quite the same
09:47 irvin            Kamion, not very useful, since you'll have to manually download dependencies
09:47 Kamion           robotgeek: sure, but it does link to all the dependencies at least
09:47 robotgeek        Kamion: to a new user, it is quite daunting
09:48 Kamion           but yeah, improving that would be good, just saying it's not *entirely*
                       missing, just kinda poor at the moment :)
                       irvin: that would be great - in combination with an easy way to install
09:48 jenda            packages from CD, that would be a solution for dialuppers and the
09:48 mvo              irvin: I like your idea a lot, I would love to talk to you about it later
09:48 irvin            robotgeek, indeed. i remember getting xchm
09:48 ogra             gdebi-ng could be something like that
09:48 irvin            thanks mvo
09:48 ogra             ;)
09:48 Kamion           +1 for irvin based on translation work and sustained advocacy, anyway
09:48 Kyral            Could we put a "Download all depends" link in
09:48 robotgeek        Kyral: :)
09:48 irvin            Kyral, that would be nice
09:49 irvin            Kyral, but how to deal with updates?
09:49 Amaranth         make gdebi detect CDs with packages on them with some hal/g-v-m magic
09:49 azeem            uhm, hi
09:49 ogra             Kyral, depends might also have dependencys
09:49 Amaranth         irvin: binary diffs would be nice
09:49 Amaranth         oh, azeem is here!
09:49 Kyral            irvin: you mean to the packages?
09:49 ogra             hey azeem
09:49 jjesse           updates are a pain, some of us just borrow works high  speed internet to
09:49 azeem            well, technically, I'm at a christmas party
09:49 Kyral            ogra: if we assume they have ubuntu-desktop installed, then we can assume
                       what packages they have already
09:49 robotgeek        irvin: most of the times, it's people without internet. they just want to
                       get an additional package
09:50 irvin            Kyral, if there's an update package
09:50 Kyral            irvin: you mean like every two weeks or so?
09:50 sabdfl           elmo: irvin?
09:50 elmo             ack
09:50 ogra             Kyral, you cant always assume they have u-d installed ... but thats nothing
                       for a CC meeting now ..
09:50 Kyral            ogra: agreed, we can talk in #ubuntu-motu
09:50 irvin            i'm subscribed to breezy-changes so i know if there's any updates i need to
09:51 sabdfl           ok, welcome aboard irvin. azeem, you're up!
09:51 mdke             welcome irvin
09:51 irvin            thanks all
09:52 irvin            happy holidays!
09:52 ogra             congrats irvin
09:52 ogra             :)
09:53 irvin            thanks ogra
09:53 ogra             azeem ?
09:54 zenrox           azeem:  we need 3 lines about you
09:54 sabdfl           ok, let's go on without azeem
09:54 zenrox           yep
09:55 sabdfl           Ananda Putra?
09:55 sabdfl           lucasd?
09:56 sabdfl           lucasd has done a LOT of translation by the looks of things
09:56 sabdfl           pity he's not here
09:56 zenrox           lol
09:56 sabdfl           do we have any other member candidates here?
09:56 OgMaciel         sabdfl, he's been busy helping out the Brazilian team
09:56 sabdfl           OgMaciel: yes, i can see, and he seems to be doing a lot
09:56 OgMaciel         it is a shame he's not here
09:56 sabdfl           he would definitely get my +1 on membership
09:56 kjcole           (Both the lucas's of today had great stuff.)
09:57 OgMaciel         sabdfl, I have actually lured quite a few translators these days
09:57 sabdfl           :-)
09:57 OgMaciel         ;)
09:57 sabdfl           see, shiny rosetta ...
09:57 lucas            :-)
09:57 sabdfl           ok folks, can we wrap up?
09:57 ogra             looks like :)
09:57 zenrox           i have new businness
09:57 Kamion           zenrox: go for it
09:57 sabdfl           zenrox: what's up?
09:57 zenrox           i think thare shuld be an irc team
09:58 Kyral            We were discussing this in #ubuntuforums just before the meeting
09:58 Bonzodog         If I can just interject, zenrox is dyslexic
=== sistpoty [n=sistpoty@ubuntu/member/sistpoty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:58 zenrox           yep
09:58 Kyral            Bonzodog: makes no difference
09:58 mdke             relevancy?
09:58 Amaranth         IRC Team?
09:58 Amaranth         We kind of already do, no?
09:58 Bonzodog         just to excuse the spelling errors
09:59 Amaranth         I mean, we have the ops in #ubuntu and such.
09:59 mdke             Bonzodog, ah, no one spells nylthing right in irc :)
09:59 mdke             anything
09:59 zenrox           but i think it would be nice to intertwine all the #ubuntu channels with
                       rules (per channel) and have a central team controling it
=== mdke proves own point
09:59 Kyral            Amaranth: I think he meant a way to monitor all the channels
09:59 hybrid           mdke: rofl
09:59 Amaranth         ah
09:59 Kyral            Like put a Logbot in official channels
09:59 Amaranth         so one set of ops for all channels and ubuntubot in all channel
09:59 zenrox           Kyral:  basckly we
09:59 zenrox           yes
09:59 ogra             isnt that the case ?
09:59 Kamion           we already do, although there are channel limits that it's running up
10:00 mdke             Kyral, there are logbots in all channels that want one more or less
10:00 Kyral            Kamion: Logbot1 Logbot2?
10:00 zenrox           Amaranth:  yes
10:00 Kamion           I think it can only join up to 20 channels or so, but talk to fabbione if
                       it's missing one
10:00 Kyral            mdke: ah
10:00 mdke             Kamion, smurf runs one too for locochannels
10:00 Kamion           right
10:00 OgMaciel         sabdfl,  I'd like to bring something up too... BUG
                       5278  (
10:00 Bonzodog         the #ubuntuforums channel does not have one
10:00 ogra             for edubuntu we have the officiall fabbione bot in #edubuntu and the LoCoBot
                       in the localized channels ...
10:00 Amaranth         I've had people ask me to get rid of trolls in such in #kubuntu before, but
                       I'm only an op in #ubuntu
10:00 mdke             Bonzodog, log bots are pretty easy
10:01 smurf            You can teach the bot to connect more than once
10:01 zenrox           as i dont know how to form a team id like help to set this up
10:01 Kyral            Could all members have some level of access? *prepares to hide*
10:01 smurf            mine has three freenode connections open ATM :-/
10:01 Amaranth         Kyral: That'd get complicated.
10:01 zenrox           and help set up the rules and regs and etc...
10:01 sabdfl           elmo: what's the right process to update an email address for
                       OgMaciel's bug?
10:01 Kamion           Kyral: I'm inclined to think that integrating Launchpad membership with IRC
                       is likely to be just waaaaaaaay too much pain
10:01 Amaranth         Kyral: The only feasible solution would be to have all the members link to a
10:02 Amaranth         Kyral: But freenode has a limit on how many linked nicks you can have.
10:02 Kyral            actually I need ping elmo about my as well
10:02 Kamion           and ties us very much to Freenode in case we ever want to move off
10:02 elmo             sabdfl: the auto-update stuff is down atm, due to some refactoring - I'm
                       working on it with SteveA
10:02 Kyral            Kamion: Don't get zenrox started about that one
10:02 elmo             if updates are important, they can bug me and I'll do it by hand
10:02 zenrox           Kamion:  that is also part of my propsal of forming the irc team
10:02 Kyral            Kamion: I had to talk him outta it earlier
10:02 Kamion           Kyral: I'm aware it's come up before
10:02 zenrox           maby at some point ubuntu can have its own servers
10:03 zenrox           but not at this point tho
10:03 Amaranth         bad idea
10:03 Amaranth         everyone is on freenode :P
10:03 Amaranth         except those silly GNOME and Mozilla guys
10:03 Kyral            yah thats what I said
10:03 Kamion           I kind of like being able to use IRC even when the datacentre's being
                       deluged with CD image downloads :P
10:03 zenrox           just need to form the irc team and have the team discuss this and other
                       issues that relate to freenode and ubuntu
10:03 Kyral            I mean we could contribute a server to Freenode
10:03 OgMaciel         elmo, would it be possible for you to manually change it for me?  Please?
10:03 mdke             OgMaciel, a LP admin can do it I think
10:04 elmo             mdke: no, they can't
10:04 zenrox           Kyral:  yes but team needs to be formed first
10:04 mdke             elmo, ah my bad
10:04 sabdfl           mdke: no, the script that maps from lp to the alias file is in elmo's hands,
                       and is down right now
10:04 Kamion           ok, I'm kind of unclear as to what this team would be doing
10:04 robotgeek        same here
10:04 OgMaciel         I've been doing a lot of advocating and would like to be able to give them
                       my Ubuntu email  ;(
10:04 Amaranth         donating a server doesn't get you special privileges
10:04 sabdfl           when that script is sorted, then updating LP should update your email addy
10:04 mdke             cool
10:04 zenrox           Kamion:  manging the irc channels, disputes ,etc..
10:05 Kamion           we have the code of conduct for basic rules and regulations already
10:05 Kyral            sabdfl: ah okay I'll wait instead of bugging elmo :D
10:05 zenrox           Kamion:  but that dont apply to every cahnnel on irc
10:05 Kamion           zenrox: applies to #ubuntu*
10:05 zenrox           that is ubuntu related
10:05 sabdfl           OgMaciel, Kyral: no, please bug elmo to fix it for you today
=== ian_brasil [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== keyes_ [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:05 sabdfl           rather than waiting
10:05 sabdfl           hey ian_brasil
10:05 OgMaciel         sabdfl, sounds good to me  ;)
10:05 keyes_           hello
10:05 ian_brasil       sabdfl:ola
10:05 sabdfl           has the drought cleared?
                       and given the number of channels, doesn't it scale better to have channels
10:05 Kamion           managing themselves where possible, rather than trying to have one team do
                       it all?
10:05 zenrox           Kamion: to a point but what about like spam some ubuntu channels alow it
                       some dont
10:06 zenrox           also too maby a good wiki page to list ruls for eatche channel
10:06 robotgeek        zenrox: #ubuntuforums is the only channgel which don't comply, AFAIK
10:06 ian_brasil       it has been raining here for a week solid and the rivers are rising
10:06 zenrox           and a central command structure for channels
10:06 Kamion           I think we're in danger of overengineering here ...
10:06 OgMaciel         elmo, could you? ;)
10:06 zenrox           robotgeek:  the 1 execption
10:06 Kamion           IRC channels aren't a military structure :)
10:07 zenrox           Kamion:  i know
10:07 mdke             Kamion, +1
10:07 Kyral            elmo: if you have time, could you set my redirect? Thanks
10:07 keyes_           the DADVSI law is voted now in France, look
10:07 Kamion           and trying to turn them into one is generally a doomed enterprise
10:07 Kyral            mdke: I think its more about making sure there is an active op in
10:07 robotgeek        the COC applies in #ubuntu, and pretty much everyone sticks to it
10:07 keyes_           if this is voted, this is the end of PLF, VLC, and lot of other open source
10:07 zenrox           but  you know what i mean if thare is a ban that some one wants to do in a
                       channel thay can go to the irc team and ban and valadea it
10:07 zenrox           remove bans etc...
10:07 Kamion           I've got no objection to clearer rules, and strong channel ops
=== Mirno [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:08 Kamion           zenrox: per Freenode policy, that's the job of the channel opts
10:08 Kamion           er, ops
10:08 mdke             Kyral, i don't think we should decide that for all ubuntu channels
10:08 zenrox           hence the team formation
10:08 Kyral            zenrox: are you referring to my "situation" a couple weeks ago?
10:08 mdke             Kyral, think about all the loco channels
10:08 Mirno            Hi
10:08 zenrox           Kyral:  yes
10:08 lucas            keyes_: asking english speaking people to watch a french minister talking in
                       french might not be a good idea :)
10:08 seth_k|lappy     I think more than an IRCTeam, we need a central place to see who has ops on
                       what channels, maybe apply for op privileges on a channel, etc.
10:08 elmo             Kyral: have you even set email up in LP?
10:08 seth_k|lappy     To see who is available to get rid of a problem user
10:08 Kyral            elmo: you mean addys?
10:08 Kamion           if this is a proposal coming from a wide cross-section of existing #ubuntu*
                       channel ops to try to centralise how they do things, that's one thing
10:09 zenrox           Kyral:  had bine baned in #Ubuntu 2 weeks ago and i could not get ahold of
                       the person who di the ban
=== Ju`_ [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:09 keyes_           lucas:  sorry ;)
10:09 Kamion           seth_k|lappy: chanserv tells you who has what access levels, doesn't it?
10:09 Mirno            lucas, it's quite a bad timeing for a CC :) for french people
10:09 zenrox           and if thare is an irc team we can ealy contect the team to get the ban
                       lifted or refined
10:09 Kamion           21:09 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- An access level of [1]  is required for
                       [ACCESS LIST]  on #ubuntu
10:09 seth_k|lappy     Kamion, you need access level 1 to use /msg chanserv access #channel list
10:09 Kamion           hmm, maybe not
10:09 seth_k|lappy     yeah, I was right
10:09 Kamion           zenrox: similarly you can contact the ops
10:10 ogra             Mirno, hmm, for germans its fine ... whats wrong with france ?
10:10 Kamion           I think that access restriction should be lifted so that people can see who
                       the ops are
10:10 zenrox           Kamion:  i did the person who wasnt around
10:10 lucas            Mirno: quite good, it is 22:10 here
10:10 zenrox           culd not remove the ban
10:10 mdke             Kamion, +1
10:10 seth_k|lappy     Kamion, I don't know if you can. I think that's a freenode thing
10:10 ogra             Mirno, i prefer 9pm to 5am ;)
10:10 Kamion           zenrox: an IRC team has no power without the cooperation of the channel
10:10 robotgeek        Kamion: generally you can see who the ops are by doing !ops
10:10 mdke             seth_k|lappy, sure you can
10:10 Kamion           zenrox: therefore this proposal has to come from the channel operators
10:10 seth_k|lappy     mdke, alright
10:10 Kamion           robotgeek: in channels with bots that recognise !commands, sure
10:10 zenrox           Kamion:  at least 1 person from can ops will be on the team
10:10 zenrox           cachanel
10:10 Kamion           zenrox: have you discussed this with them?
10:11 zenrox           yes
10:11 robotgeek        Kamion: yup, ubotu is good to have around
10:11 Kamion           zenrox: are any of the relevant people here?
10:11 zenrox           no as usual
10:11 Mirno            ogra: it's RIGHT NOW, the debat/vote for DAVIDSI law ... Law that will
                       forbid free software and reverse engeneering etc, in France.
10:11 mdke             Mirno, #ubuntu-offtopic pls
10:11 ogra             Mirno, ask them to postpone it until we're done ...
10:11 Kamion           perhaps you can put together a wiki page with a list of the people involved
10:11 Amaranth         relevant people?
=== keyes_ french politics are bastards
10:11 Kamion           and the channels they're responsible for
10:11 Amaranth         i'm in op in #ubuntu, does that count?
10:12 zenrox           Amaranth:  yes
10:12 Amaranth         err, an op
10:12 zenrox           you count
10:12 Amaranth         i think a team would be useless, actually
10:12 Kamion           that way we can have some kind of an idea of who wants to form a team and
                       cooperate in shared management of channels
10:12 zenrox           Amaranth:  but want about in the long run
10:12 Amaranth         there has only been one time i wished i had op in another channel
10:12 Kyral            Amaranth: #ubuntuforums?
10:12 Kamion           there are too many channels and operators for a proposal from just one or
                       two people to make sense on its own, IMHO
10:12 Amaranth         Kyral: that's not an official channel, really
10:13 lucasvo          I think the bigger problem is that too many peopla are in the channels
10:13 zenrox           Kamion:  agreed
10:13 sabdfl           ok, can we ask zenrox & co to work on that? do you need any specific
                       decision or support from the CC?
10:13 zenrox           sabdfl:  i was told that i have to get approvil to get this set up and for
                       the team but i will come back with a list off ppl and rally more support
10:14 zenrox           off=of
10:14 Amaranth         keyes_: dang, no subtitles :P
10:14 mdke             zenrox, if you work on a spec, it will be much clearer
10:14 zenrox           mdke:  yep i need help
10:14 mdke             it's difficult to judge just like this
10:14 keyes_           sorry
10:14 sabdfl           i like the idea of an IRC team, so +1 from me for that, but you'll need to
                       come back with a formal proposal, speling not important
10:14 zenrox           lots of it
10:14 Kyral            lol
10:14 zenrox           hehehehe
10:14 sabdfl           ok
                       zenrox: ok, generally we need to have a clear statement of goals and list of
10:14 Kamion           initial people interested before approving it, so that we know it's starting
                       off on a good footing
10:14 zenrox           ok
10:15 Kamion           zenrox: but you can certainly start informal collaboration without having to
                       get CC approval for that
10:15 sabdfl           zenrox: thanks for taking the lead on this
=== zenrox bows to the will
10:15 keyes_           anarchy will beat ^^
10:15 sabdfl           ok folks, any other business?
10:15 Kamion           zenrox: we don't ban people from talking to each other and just doing useful
                       stuff ;-)
10:15 zenrox           Kamion:  i know that
10:15 Kyral            zenrox: or disagreeing with Forum Admins ;P
10:15 Bonzodog         Are people aware of the Ubuntu Document Storage Facility and what it does?
10:15 Mirno            i'm sorry did I miss the "forum' topic ?
10:16 mdke             Bonzodog, yes
10:16 mdke             Mirno, yes
10:16 Kamion           Mirno: apparently resolved, so not being discussed here
10:16 Mirno            Kamion: ok
10:16 jenda            Bonzodog: Maybe you should inform - I was surprised to see how many people
10:16 Bonzodog         I would just like to give a little briefing on it. I know you are aware mdke
10:16 Kamion           Bonzodog: today was the first I'd heard of it
10:16 Mirno            never heard of it
10:17 Bonzodog         the website:
10:17 sabdfl           Bonzodog: ?
10:17 Bonzodog         It is a project run by KingBahamut
10:17 Kamion           FWIW the web site isn't responding to me
10:17 ogra             same here
10:17 seth_k|lappy     really slow here
10:17 Bonzodog         my launchpad page:
10:17 kjcole           Kamion, ditto
10:18 Mirno            Bonzodog: ah this ..
10:18 Bonzodog         http://www.launchpad]
10:18 seth_k|lappy     the udsf contributes to dilution... why can't the wiki be used?
10:18 jjesse           +1 seth_k|lappy
10:18 Bonzodog
10:18 Bonzodog         is me
10:18 mdke             seth_k|lappy, please don't start this, it's late already
10:18 hybrid           duh
10:18 Kyral            seth_k|lappy: KB has had some...disagreements with the Wiki staff it seems.
                       Lets put it that way
10:19 zenrox           so are we backly done here
=== zenrox bows out to eat
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10:19 sabdfl           Bonzodog: ok, the site seems to be down now
                       we are part of team bahamut and we are working alongside the wiki and mdke
10:19 Bonzodog         to put together a second wiki that is more how-to's and basic documentation
                       onusing ubuntu
                       I can see why the forum community wants it's own wiki, but it would be cool
10:19 hno73            if they had the same markup so we could move content between the wikis more
10:19 Bonzodog         sabdfl: the site is under attack
10:19 sabdfl           can i ask you to put a document together that describes what you are doing
                       and put it on the agenda for the next CC meeting?
                       my thought is just that the "official" Ubuntu forums should be encouraging
10:20 seth_k|lappy     use of the *official* Ubuntu wiki, not some third-party project. My
                       objection doesn't really relate to the doc itself.
10:20 hno73            esp, now if they both become PD
10:20 Bonzodog         and has been a few times
=== thesaltydog [n=fabio@ubuntu/member/thesaltydog] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:20 thesaltydog      am I late? sorry..
10:20 sabdfl           seth_k|lappy: yes, but there is room for other wiki's, for example the loco
                       teams often create them
10:20 Amaranth         thesaltydog: the meeting is pretty much over
10:20 thesaltydog      ah..ok
10:21 thesaltydog      I thought it was at 20:00 utc
=== hno73 runs several moin wikis which don't seem to get attacked
10:21 irvin            the docteam is pretty handicapped at the moment, we would welcome your
                       contributions Bonzodog
10:21 Bonzodog         why ours is being attacked is a mystery
                       Bonzodog: why would the site be attacked? if there is a controversy in the
10:21 sabdfl           forums or irc, please ask both sides to state their case in the wiki and
                       bring it to the next CC meeting
=== keyes_ is now known as keyes
10:21 sabdfl           thesaltydog: it was ;-)
10:21 Riddell          Amaranth: I'm happy to make any responsible person an op in #kubuntu but I
                       don't know how much you're in there
10:21 hno73            In fact I've moved two wikis from media to moin due to spam infestation
10:21 Bonzodog         Kingbahmut has more on it
10:21 Kyral            sabdfl: there is a small....issue in that
10:21 thesaltydog      hi sabdfl
10:21 mdke             hno73, :) go moin!
10:21 Amaranth         Riddell: Basically never. But it seems like you're more likely to find an op
                       in #ubuntu than #kubuntu
10:22 Amaranth         Riddell: That was a while ago though.
=== hno73 is a moin zelot :)
10:22 seth_k|lappy     Amaranth, I'm in there quite a few hours a day, 8-10 usually
10:22 robotgeek        Riddell: i'm there usually, now that i am using kubuntu :)
10:22 Riddell          seth_k|lappy: that's why you're on op :)
                       sabdfl, of course there is room; I'm not saying that the udsf should be
                       asked to stop or something. sabdfl, however, the official Ubuntu Forums
10:23 seth_k|lappy     encourage the use of this site instead of the official wiki. It was simply
                       my opinion that an Ubuntu resource that was deemed "official" should
                       encourage the use of official Ubuntu-sanctioned support documents.
10:23 robotgeek        seth_k|lappy: +1
10:23 Amaranth         seth_k|lappy: There seemed to be an issue with the docs getting moved to the
                       official wiki.
10:23 Amaranth         seth_k|lappy: Sounded like it was basically formatting issues.
10:23 sabdfl           seth_k|lappy: agreed. we need to assess if the UDSF serves a real puspose,
                       then that could become official for that purpose
10:23 Bonzodog         I was hoping that the two wikis would be able to work together
10:24 sabdfl           i know the docteam have wanted a more stable platform than a wiki
10:24 mdke             Bonzodog, the markup is not very compatible
10:24 sabdfl           what i don't like is the idea of two docteams :-)
10:24 Bonzodog         as we are a resource of how-to's and basic documentation
10:24 sabdfl           anyhow, this is a matter that requires some detailed background
10:24 seth_k|lappy     Riddell, yeah, that was just in response to Amaranth saying that ops in
                       #kubuntu were hard to find
10:24 lucasvo          if you say the the 2nd wiki is for howto & doc, what is the official wiki
10:24 Bonzodog         we use MediaWiki as our software
10:24 mdke             lucasvo, they are both for that
=== Sanne [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:24 sabdfl           Bonzodog: please write up the rationale and vision of the UDSF, and get
                       docteam and wiki team commentary alongside it
10:24 Bonzodog         which powers wikipedia
10:24 Bonzodog         I will do
10:25 sabdfl           we can discuss it when we meet again
10:25 Bonzodog         and we bring it to the next meeting
10:25 sabdfl           cool
10:25 irvin            that would be nice
10:25 sabdfl           ok. kamion, elmo, friends, thank you!

MeetingLogs/CC_2005-12-20 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:40:57 by localhost)