Ubuntu Wiki

   11:33 sabdfl       ok, quorate we now be
   11:34 sabdfl       ok
   11:34 sabdfl       thanks elmo
   11:34 sabdfl       i'm afraid i'm going to duck out in about half an hour
   11:34 sabdfl       so can i ask that we focus on the policy issues first?
   11:34 mako         alright..
   11:34 mako         the ones that need voting in particular
   11:34 mako         then see how far we can get through the member candidates
   11:35 JaneW        the Google SoC issue may not be relevant, we have signed up already...
   === mako nods to JaneW
   11:35 mako         alright
   11:35 ogra         and it would rather be a TB thing
   11:35 mako         lets waste no time
   11:35 mako         IRC rules
   11:35 mako         https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcRules
   11:36 Seveas       I drafted the IRC rules for the reasons mentioned in the intro of that page
   11:36 Seveas       they reflect the current policy
   11:36 Seveas       and it would be nice to get an official 'OK'
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   11:37 Seveas       or comments about why that can't happen
   11:37 mdke         one minor point on that page, I feel that the phrase "Do not recommend outdated and bad information" might be put a little bit too high. It smacks a little bit of elitism to me.
   11:37 elmo         yeah, the whole page could do with some TLC, phrasing wise
   11:37 Seveas       mdke, I don't see it that way - it won't help people to give them bad advise
   11:37 Seveas       elmo: TLC?
   11:38 tonyyarusso  Maybe more along the lines of "Try to avoid..., and use newer information when available"?
   11:38 mdke         tender loving care
   11:38 sabdfl       good job in general, though, and thanks seveas
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   11:38 mako         right, that paragraph is a bit strange
   11:38 sabdfl       i'd prefer guidelines to rules
   11:38 sabdfl       most of them are advisory, in any event
   11:38 tonyyarusso  They definitely seem solid so far.
   11:38 Seveas       sabdfl, I use guidelines everywhere in the page, except the name
   11:38 mdke         Seveas, as I mentioned however in my email, "bad advice" is subjective. One of the examples you give there is in our desktop guide shipped with Dapper, for example
   11:38 mako         also because it lists a number of very specific documents
   11:38 mako         which will be incomplete
   11:38 sabdfl       it's great to have a concrete place to point people when questions come up
   11:38 mako         and could, with future revisions of said documents, become inaccurate
   11:38 Seveas       mdke, I call that a bug in the docs, but let's not argue about that here
   11:39 Seveas       (I mean that specific example)
   11:39 sabdfl       https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductGuidelines
   11:39 sabdfl       do you expect these to be linked from there?
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   11:39 mdke         Seveas, as I say, it's subjective.
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   11:39 Seveas       sabdfl, that page is quite empty now
   11:40 mako         Seveas: that much is clear
   11:40 sabdfl       http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
   11:40 sabdfl       it should be linked from the bottom of that page
   11:40 elmo         fwiw, they're ok by me (as guidelines, as sabdfl says), but I'd like to go over the wording of the document with seveas later and out of band
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   11:41 sabdfl       do you guys think we should adopt these through some broader process (members vote?) or just CC +1?
   11:41 topyli       maybe cursing and touchy subjects should not be directed from #ubuntu to #ubuntu-offtopic (even with the advice to be considerate there too in parenthesis)
   11:41 mako         i share mdke's critique and think that the prohibition on "bad" advice is worrisome
   11:41 mdke         #ubuntu often gets a reputation (probably unjustly) as elitist and it's important that it is _seen_ not to be, as well as in reality. So a page like that needs to be just right
   11:41 cbx33        May I ask is there a policy on top-posting, several of the other mailing lists I am a member of insist on not topposting
   11:41 Razor-X      What if outdated advice is unintentional?
   11:41 smurf        sabdfl: CC
   11:41 sabdfl       cbx33: a set of mailing list guidelines would be equally useful, but right now we are focused on Seveas' Irc ones
   11:41 Seveas       mdke, the only times I heared of #ubuntu being elitist is from you
   11:41 mako         cbx33: no, that general nettiquitte but this is offtopic now
   11:41 mdke         Seveas, you don't read the forums much, I guess
   11:42 mako         Seveas: read the forums
   11:42 kjcole       What I see there seems general common sense and courtesy, although it would be nice to know that newbies are either cut some slack or required to read guidelines before arriving.
   11:42 cbx33        mako, over and out
   11:42 mdke         the best way to deal with dubious advice, is to politely give alternatives, rather than prohibit things a priori
   11:42 ompaul       topyli, the first is not the second is to move offside from a support context where it does not belong
   11:42 tonyyarusso  We do frequently end up with cursing in offtopic b/c people think anything goes there.
   11:42 mako         lets stay focused on these guidelines please
   11:43 sabdfl       i agree with mako, elmo, mdke that the "don't give bad advice" item should come out
   11:43 mdke         calling them "guidelines" would solve a lot, I think
   11:43 mako         Seveas: i don't think any document of this sort should single out particular technologies or documents
   11:43 kjcole       (I say that because what is common sense to regulars is not always common sense to newcomers: e.g. away messages.)
   11:44 Seveas       mako, in the "don't give bad advise" they're not singled out, they're just examples
   11:44 mako         actually, i don't think the whole item should go out
   11:44 smurf        is that bad as in just-possibly-wrong, or bad as in intentionally-misleading?
   11:44 mako         just "    *
   11:44 mako               Do not recommend outdated and bad information such as ubuntuguide.org or bad solutions such as using install-css.sh from libdvdread, running java-installer.bin files directly or using automatix. For all these things there are much safer alternatives available.
   11:44 tonyyarusso  Softening the wording or title would sit better with me too, I think.  Not lots, just carefully in spots like that.
   11:44 lucasvo      kjcole: you'll learn it after you get kicked once :)
   11:44 mako         i'd advocate removing that bit only
   11:44 mako         Seveas: right, i understand that
   11:44 mdke         smurf, the former, as I understand the page
   11:44 sabdfl       i don't think this document should get into specifics like automatix
   11:44 mako         Seveas: but they under-represent and, with time, may also over-represent
   11:44 kjcole       lucasvo: School of Hard Knocks?  Point taken. ;-)
   11:44 sabdfl       i prefer this as an "addendum and clarification to the code of conduct as applied to IRC conversations"
   11:44 mako         if nothing else, it makes things fragile
   11:44 mdke         sabdfl, absolutely not. There is no need for high level documents to rub people up the wrong way ;)
   11:45 Razor-X      I know I have referred outdated solutions in #ubuntu on accident, then corrected by someone else, so I think there is some danger there.
   11:45 lucasvo      kjcole: and newbies should read the guidelines
   11:45 mako         Seveas: in any case, better not to enshire particular documents as bad examples in this way
   11:45 sabdfl       i like the idea of having a set of these documents, for IRC, mailing lists, the forums, the wiki... best practices for communicating
   === mako nods
   11:45 Seveas       to sum it up: soften the wording and be careful with examples
   11:45 mako         Seveas: well, the rest of it seems great
   11:45 sabdfl       yes, but in general +1 and thanks!
   11:45 mindspin     yup
   11:45 Seveas       I'll do that and get back later
   11:46 Seveas       let's waste no more time with it
   11:46 mako         a'ight
   11:46 tonyyarusso  Seveas: Sounds reasonable to me.
   11:46 mdke         mako/others, by the way, I wrote up a mailing list equivalent, if you can check it out when you're free, that would be lovely (wiki:Listiquette)
   11:46 sabdfl       Seveas: if you make placeholders for: IrcGuidelines, ForumGuidelines, MailingListGuidelines...
   11:46 tonyyarusso  Good job though on that draft.
   11:46 smurf        I'd change (or amend) that to specifically prohibit intentionally-misleading "advice"
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   11:46 carthik      A general note to register with #freenode, and about PMs received from the bot would be nice (esp. ubotu's PMs)
   11:46 kjcole       lucasvo: In the chaos that is "wiki" one doesn't always arrive at things in logical order.  (I imagine it's easy to find how to get to an IRC channel before one is aware of a guidelines page.)
   11:47 kjcole       In any case +1
   11:47 Seveas       mdke, you know my mail address
   11:47 tonyyarusso  smurf: Second that, rm -rf / should probably be dealt with more strongly.
   11:47 mdke         Seveas, yes. Why?
   11:47 Seveas       <mdke> mako/others, by the way, I wrote up a mailing list equivalent, if you can check it out when you're free, that would be lovely (wiki:Listiquette)
   11:47 Seveas       (missed the url, so ignore me)
   11:48 lucasvo      kjcole: it is still a draft. if it is final it should be a static html page
   11:48 Seveas       can we move on?
   11:48 sabdfl       yes please
   11:48 sabdfl       whats the cloaking issue?
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   11:49 mako         sabdfl: do you remember the old cloaking discussions?
   11:49 Seveas       sabdfl, you specifically said: "only ubunyu/member cloaks" - freenode however requests (not demands) for bots to be recognizable as bots, so ubuntu/bot/* would be nice
   11:49 mako         this sounds totally reasonable
   11:49 mdke         sounds like a plan
   11:49 mako         thumbs up from me
   11:49 sabdfl       +1
   11:49 ompaul       +1
   11:50 smurf        good idea; locobot should get that too
   11:50 tonyyarusso  Makes sense here.
   11:50 mitsuhiko    smurf: +1 ^^
   11:50 sabdfl       yowser that was easy :-)
   11:50 mako         elmo: ?
   11:50 mdke         and fabio's bot too
   11:50 Seveas       smurf, what's his registered nick?
   11:50 sabdfl       SOC2k6?
   11:50 mako         we can skip that
   11:50 mako         since we are alreasy signed up apparently
   11:50 mako         according to JaneW
   11:50 elmo         yeah, that's obviously fine
   11:51 smurf        Seveas: not yet, actually; I'll register them and ping you
   11:51 Seveas       smurf, link all nicknames together please
   11:51 mako         ok the next discussion in regards to kubuntu.de proposes discussing it later
   11:51 smurf        Seveas: sure
   11:51 JaneW        yep
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   11:51 mako         like at the end of the meeting
   11:51 AndreaVeri   ok mako
   11:51 sabdfl       erk... i'd like to comment briefly, and won't be here much longer
   11:51 smurf        mako: why?
   11:51 mako         smurf: i don't know why
   11:52 highvoltage  mdke: i nearly read that as "23:50 < mdke> and fabio's bot too
   11:52 smurf        sabdfl: +1
   11:52 mako         smurf: that what it says on the agenda :)
   11:52 highvoltage  mdke: i mean "and fabio's hot too" :)
   11:52 juliux       mako, but it is very important
   11:52 mako         listen, i'm not arguing in favor of this
   11:52 mako         i'm just reading the agenda
   11:52 AndreaVeri   mako can we move to things that need vote?
   11:52 sabdfl       i think the person just didn't want to interrupt the membership discussions, but this is an important thing and we should discuss it now
   11:52 mako         alright
   11:53 sabdfl       ok, let me call for comments, one per person, say done when done, pretype them please!
   11:53 sabdfl       who has something to say on the kubuntu.de process and outcome?
   11:53 mako         i just want to make sure we spend quorate time on stuff that may lead to a vote
   11:54 lucasvo      am I right that they "sold" their site to a company that sells support?
   11:54 Seveas       sabdfl, /me
   11:54 sabdfl       folks, msg me if you want to comment, i'll then call per person, so we get to everyone
   11:54 Riddell      I'm working with german kubuntu users to get a new website happening, probably closely affiliated to ubuntuusers.de
   11:54 sabdfl       smurf
   11:55 smurf        my main problem with the whole kubuntu.de mess is that questions to amu as to why he hasn't brought the issue before the CC have been met with ... silence
   11:55 sabdfl       ok
   11:55 smurf        plus, kubuntu.de no redirects to ubunux.de which is silent on the problem too
   11:55 sabdfl       tonyyarusso:
   11:55 tonyyarusso  I think looking into getting domain names would be a good idea.
   11:55 sabdfl       pregetting them?
   11:56 tonyyarusso  Yes.  To avoid future issues.
   11:56 sabdfl       mdke: go
   11:56 mdke         the kubuntu.de thing was a mess, but there is nothing that the CC can do about community members who fail to approach the matter through the correct channels. I've been happy that so far I haven't seen that their "ransom" has not received any attention from official channels, it doesn't deserve it.
   11:56 mdke         more should be done to integrate kubuntu and ubuntu locoteams though
   11:56 sabdfl       Seveas: go
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   11:56 Seveas       sabdfl, +1 on mdke's comment about not bringing to the CC
   11:56 Seveas       nothing else
   11:56 sabdfl       mitsuhiko: go
   11:57 ompaul       sabdfl,
   11:57 mitsuhiko    the main problem was that ubuntu and kubuntu teams don't work together on the german side
   11:57 mitsuhiko    now the whole kubuntu.de is down and users stand and ask what to do now
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   11:57 sabdfl       highvoltage: go
   11:57 mitsuhiko    it would be good if ubuntuusers.de would integrate kubuntu more
   11:57 mitsuhiko    !done
   11:57 smurf        some people seem to think that KDE people will run away screaming when they are 'forced' to support users in a forum where Gnome is also mentioned occasionally :-/
   11:57 highvoltage  well, on that issue, I wrote this blog entry: http://jonathancarter.co.za/blog/?postid=27
   11:57 rockin_stan  mitsuhiko: +1
   11:57 mdke         i agree with mitsuhiko
   11:58 highvoltage  i felt that the issue was bordering on extortion, although i won't mention names or specific incidents.
   11:58 sabdfl       ok, mako, elmo?
   11:58 highvoltage  done;
   11:58 smurf        AFAIR tat was cited as one of the main reasons why there is/was/??? a kubuntu.de domain in the first place
   11:58 mdke         sabdfl, another quick comment here
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   11:59 sabdfl       go ahead mdke
   11:59 mdke         recently the italian locoteam (today) has discussed the possibility of integrating edubuntu initiatives into the ubuntu-it community structure, we feel it can be done easily, as with kubuntu. the same locoteam can deal with more than one derivative, with shared resources and/or separate websites.
   12:00 mako         so i agree with mitsuhiko and mdke for the most part..
   12:00 sabdfl       i think that's everyone who /msg'd me
   12:00 mako         i think there are some interesting unaddressed questions about where loco teams stands in the kubuntu/ubuntu divide
   12:00 mako         and in terms of actually doing things
   12:00 mako         some questions i don't know the answers to in regards to the trademark
   12:00 Yann2        agree with what has been said until now, too... have been really pleased canonical didn't gave it much attention.
   12:00 mako         and canonical's role
   12:01 sabdfl       yes, there's an ambiguity in "ubuntu the overall umbrella project" and "ubuntu the gnome desktop distro that is a peer of kubuntu the kde desktop distro"
   12:01 mako         and the degree to which canonical will jump if the CC says to jump :)
   12:01 ogra         edubuntu is happy about every loco portal that includes sopptort for it (as a sidenote, since edubuntu was mentioned a lot in the kubuntu.de argument)
   12:01 ogra         *support
   12:01 mdke         sabdfl, only one way to solve that one ;)
   12:01 smurf        mako: the German team's position is that we support both equally, even if our site's look+feel is geared more towards the Gnome side.
   12:01 sabdfl       gubuntu?
   12:01 mdke         heh
   12:01 mako         sabdfl: time to throw away the gnome distribution
   12:01 sabdfl       :-p
   12:01 mako         ok everyone
   12:01 mdke         lol
   12:01 mako         compromise, ion3
   12:01 mitsuhiko    rofl
   12:02 ompaul       -1
   12:02 ogra         mako, lol
   12:02 sabdfl       ok, folks, order
   12:02 sabdfl       it's interesting how this varies from country to country
   12:02 mako         it's not clear to me WHAT we can do it about
   12:02 sabdfl       i think germany is special w.r.t. kde
   12:02 ompaul       sabdfl, may I on the kubuntu issue?
   12:02 mako         or what the CC is being asked to do
   12:02 sabdfl       does anyone know what the current status is of Amu and \sh's feelings, or position?
   12:02 mako         other than try to prevent it in the future
   12:02 mako         which is most of what i've gotten out of this
   12:03 xorAxAx      .oO(twm)
   12:03 juliux       sabdfl, amu has canceld the kubuntu booth at the linuxtag in wiesbaden
   12:03 mitsuhiko    sabdfl: they arn't rachable currently via jabber or irc
   12:03 sabdfl       ok
   12:03 mitsuhiko    \sh is in a bad situation currently
   12:03 smurf        sabdfl: they're not talking to people who bring the issue before the CC, as far as I know
   12:03 mitsuhiko    and amu isn't responsable
   12:03 Lure         \sh was online yesterday in #kubuntu-devel
   12:03 mitsuhiko    we just know that the booth was canceled
   12:03 smurf        mitsuhiko: not responding, you mean
   12:03 sabdfl       well, first mdke is spot on in asking how this blew up into a canonical issue before it became a CC issue
   12:03 mitsuhiko    smurf: jep :)
   12:04 mindspin     will kubuntu be presented by the german ubuntu team?
   12:04 highvoltage  i've seen \sh on -motu and -devel yesterday, he seemed to be involved, although I couldn't say for sure
   12:04 Riddell      mindspin: I don't know of any developer who's going
   12:04 mitsuhiko    mindspin: juliux is looking for some guys to present kubuntu there
   12:04 juliux       mindspin, if we find kubuntuusers they can present kubuntu at the ubuntu community booth at the linuxtag in wiesbaden
   12:04 mindspin     I#ll mail you
   12:04 sabdfl       let's deal separately with the linuxtag booth
   === mako nods to sabdfl
   12:05 mdke         maybe in another channel
   12:05 sabdfl       where is the "heart and mind" of the kubuntu german community?
   12:05 Razor-X      I think we should maybe try for better cooperation between Ubuntu and Kubuntu in general. I think it may benefit the community more if we do more to make it all seem unified with slight differences, if I may be so audacious to say.
   12:05 mitsuhiko    sabdfl: currently #kubuntu-de
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   12:05 mitsuhiko    they lost their webpage
   12:05 Riddell     sabdfl: most of #kubuntu-de doesn't agree with the kubuntu.de situation
   12:06 Razor-X     (Done.)
   12:06 sabdfl      Riddell: by "the situation" you mean that the web page currently redirects to some other place?
   12:06 sabdfl      Razor-X: thank you, good point
   12:06 Riddell     sabdfl: I mean the statement that was on there before
   12:06 mitsuhiko   sabdfl: to a completly unknown webpage full of gnome users ^^
   12:06 mitsuhiko   (but the webpage is blue ^^)
   12:06 Riddell     I also spoke to someone who's name was on there but didn't know what the grivances were about
   12:07 SHAKAL      lol mitsuhiko
   12:07 sabdfl      is it specifically amu and \sh that are upset and have taken this action? or is it a wider issue?
   12:07 smurf       sabdfl: right now there's no place for that discussion to happen, other than an IRC channel and a few non-kubuntu specific forum sites
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   12:08 Riddell     sabdfl: I think it's amu who's upset, and he's convinced other people
   12:08 sabdfl      what i saw previously was amu being very upset because we had not been fast enough in responding to sysadmin requests
   12:08 rockin_stan sabdfl: i do not think it is a wider issue
   12:08 mitsuhiko   sabdfl: afair only amu. \sh joined him a few hours later
   12:08 mitsuhiko   the rest of the subscribers was the kubuntu.de forum team
   12:08 sabdfl      he had a reasonable grievance, but i think the response was out of proportion
   12:08 Riddell     sabdfl: sysadmin and I think he also e-mailed silbs about some business stuff
   12:08 Riddell     with no response
   12:08 sabdfl      i'm not aware of that
   12:08 smurf       sabdfl: +1
   12:09 Lure        sabdfl: +1
   12:09 sabdfl      i'll email both amu and \sh and offer an olive branch
   12:09 sabdfl      both have done huge amounts for (k)ubuntu
   12:09 sabdfl      so lets not lose sight of this
   12:09 mdke        a lot of it sounds like it's about money, getting reimbursed for the website and being paid for developing kubuntu. highvoltage's blog post was the wisest comment I've read on it
   12:09 sabdfl      yes, well said highvoltage
   12:09 smurf       sabdfl: one of amu's assertions is that some KDE developers will not go near Gnomeish sites (for user support, among other things)
   12:09 Riddell     mdke: no, I don't think that's the case at all
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   12:10 smurf       I think what we need to find out is whether that problem is "real"
   12:10 highvoltage mdke, sabdfl: thank you.
   12:10 mitsuhiko   smurf: +100
   12:10 mdke        Riddell, well, the sysadmin request problem disappeared and the other grievances remained, which seemed to me to be about money. But you will know more
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   12:11 mako        sabdfl: i think an email from you would be the best way forward
   12:11 sabdfl      alright, the main thing i wanted to establish is if we have a broader dissatisfaction in the kubuntu german community, or if it is focused around amu and \sh. it sounds like a specific issue, and i will reach out to try and resolve it
   12:11 sabdfl      the domain issue is interesting
   12:11 sabdfl      we do generally ask folks to transfer ubuntu domains to us to avoid something like this
   12:11 Riddell     amu did complain about a domain squatter, which I've not heard anything else about
   12:11 sabdfl      they have effectively ripped the carpet out from under their own community
   12:11 mitsuhiko   sabdfl: those are many
   12:11 Riddell     I noticed that amu registed kubuntu.eu
   12:11 sabdfl      which is not wise
   12:12 smurf       sabdfl: amu did demand that we remove "kubuntu" from ubuntuuser.de's "official support forum for ..." list
   12:12 Seveas      smurf, I found those demands ridiculous, I don't get why they want kubuntu to be completely separate
   12:12 rockin_stan oh yes, he did :/
   12:12 Riddell     smurf: that's a fair request, kubuntu.de was the official kubuntu support site until he closed it
   12:12 Riddell     Seveas: they don't
   12:12 sabdfl      we should guard against an "ubuntu vs kubuntu" issue, smurf, so lets just be firm in maintaining the position that ubuntu is about the whole project, including kubuntu
   12:12 smurf       Riddell: official as designated by whom?
   12:12 lucasvo     I thought kubuntu is property of Canonical? So he shouldn't be the one registering kubuntu.eu and demanding to remove it from ubuntuusers.de
   12:13 smurf       sabdfl: exactly
   12:13 Seveas      Riddell, their mails seemed to say so
   12:13 juliux      Seveas, hm because amu want to have a link to his onlineshop on the site?
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   12:13 sabdfl      ok, i'm traveling a lot in the next 10 days but will try and get to the bottom of this
   12:13 Riddell     smurf: kubuntu.org/support.php
   12:13 sabdfl      what would you guys see as a satisfactory resolution - the domain pointing back where it was? where is the content that was there?
   12:13 Riddell     link to kubuntu.de now removed
   12:14 Riddell     sabdfl: it's on amu's server
   12:14 Seveas      Riddell, why have they never applied to be an official locoteam?
   12:14 Riddell     sabdfl: it would be nice to have the site back up and with it pointing to ubuntuusers.de and vice versa
   12:14 mdke        +1
   12:14 Riddell     I'll be surprised if that can happen, a good amount of trust has been lost
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   12:14 sabdfl      was kubuntu.de a community site with wiki and forums etc?
   12:14 sabdfl      or just content?
   === highvoltage would be happy if the official kubuntu support site was hosted on a canonical server, with an ubuntu org owned domain name
   12:15 Riddell     sabdfl: forums and mailing list
   12:15 mitsuhiko   sabdfl: a forum since amu couldn't work together with ubuntuusers.de
   12:15 juliux      sabdfl, there are also mailinglists on kubuntu.de
   12:15 sabdfl      ok
   12:16 mindspin    most will move to kubuntuusers.de
   12:16 tonyyarusso highvoltage: +1 on that.  I would help with the image of support from Greater Ubuntu / Canonical.
   12:16 juliux      sabdfl, and they have the control about #kubuntu-de
   12:16 Riddell     Seveas: they did, they went through me, that's the process for kubuntu
   12:16 Yann2       just to write how it's going in France: we'll have a kubuntu team, which will have rw on the site ubuntu-fr.org; they'll be in charge for kubuntu promotion on ubuntufr's website.
   12:16 Riddell     juliux: ultimately I'm the freenode contact for #kubuntu* namespace
   12:16 mdke        Riddell, that's not so good. locoteams should be encouraged to deal with kubuntu and ubuntu (and others) together, I feel, if at all possible.
   12:17 juliux      Riddell, ah ok
   12:17 smurf       Yann2: that would be our preferred solution too
   12:17 sabdfl      well, i'm sorry that this has happened, but it seems to be more growing pain than major crisis. let's see if an olive branch helps. their status as anything official "kubuntu"-ish does depend on the CC, so we should be able to work something out
   12:17 Riddell     mdke: I insist upon it
   12:17 Riddell     mdke: but amu is a special case since he started kubuntu, I let him do his own thing
   12:17 mdke        ah, right.
   12:17 sabdfl      ok folks, i'm out of time. elmo, mako, sorry to duck off but thank you for steering!
   12:17 mdke        Riddell, so, having a separate channel for "officialdom" is a bad idea in general, but an exception was made for -de?
   12:17 mako        sabdfl: i have no doubt that we could work something out on our end
   12:18 mako        alright
   12:18 ogra        sabdfl, enjoy the rest of your evening
   12:18 Riddell     mdke: are you talking about IRC?
   12:18 mitsuhiko   cya sabdfl
   12:18 mako        lets see what else we can cover
   12:18 mdke        Riddell, no, LoCo teams in general
   === olive give an olive branch to the blue sky
   12:18 mako        we should probably still plan to get together later this week to do member processing :)
   12:18 mako        more meetings
   12:18 mako        yay
   12:19 mitsuhiko   mako: as long it's not on friday :)
   12:19 Riddell     mdke: meeting is moving on, poke me on #ubuntu-devel if you want to discuss
   === sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
   12:19 mdke        Riddell, sure
   12:19 mako        someone wants to know the official trademark usage guidelines
   12:19 mako        from canonical
   12:19 mako        those are actually online
   12:19 Yann2       that's me
   12:20 mako        http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy
   12:20 mako        now
   12:20 Yann2       You want to use the logo in a desktop background. Go right ahead! You can even share your work by listing it on our artwork page
   12:20 Yann2       :/
   12:21 mitsuhiko   yay. thats a problem
   12:21 mitsuhiko   since some people make derived work based on the ubuntu logo
   12:22 AndreaVeri  mako ,membership apprival postponed to?
   12:22 AndreaVeri  *approval
   12:22 smurf       ... and some of these derived works (try to) convey political messages we do NOT want to be associated with
   12:22 mako        there seems to be a specific question about using the ubuntu logo to promote particular political positions
   12:22 tonyyarusso Maybe there needs to be something like the US obscenity law for that, "we know it when we see it", for what's not okay in desktop backgrounds, with some pointers but open-ended.
   12:22 mako        AndreaVeri: a later (undecided) date
   12:22 AndreaVeri  ok perfect
   12:22 mitsuhiko   this one: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=37620
   12:22 ogra        smurf, ah, come on it was just a very bery bad april fools joke ... the guy s a big ubuntu fan
   12:22 mitsuhiko   smurf: exactly
   12:23 eyequeue    mako, so am i here inappropriately?
   12:23 tonyyarusso mako: Some political positions should be fine, but others are considered to be enough of a problem to be illegal in many counries, and that's a bit different.
   12:23 mako        eyequeue: not inappropriately
   12:23 carthik     Enforcing legit usage of the logos and trademarks (Ubuntu/Kubuntu etc) could avoid issues of "squatting" and uglification. But I guess it's not easy to enforce trademarks, like many patents.
   12:23 mako        eyequeue: we just ran out of time with the full voting board
   12:23 kjcole      Some problems also are a matter of taste/humor:  When does one take it as a true political statement (or whatever) or as a bit of fun -- however questionable?
   12:23 smurf       ogra: which doesn't prevent other people from taking it seriously and asking pointed questions about it
   12:23 ogra        smurf, true ...
   12:24 mako        so here's the deal
   12:24 Yann2       ogra > are both april jokes?
   12:24 mdke        Yann2, you might want to write up some of the potential problems you envisage in a bit more detail, and present it to the CC when the ideas are nice and concrete.
   12:24 ogra        but with a bit of research they would have found that he has just a bad sense of umor
   12:24 mako        the trademark is designed primarily to keep people from getting confused
   12:24 mako        what we really really don't want
   12:24 mako        is for people to take their distribution
   12:24 mako        that is not ubuntu
   12:24 ogra        Yann2, nope, i havent seen the fridge one
   12:24 mako        and to call it ubuntu
   12:24 mako        and to confuse people into thinking that it's the one that we put together, with support, a coc, etc
   12:24 mitsuhiko   ogra: i found out that too. but that doesn't solve to problem as such
   12:25 Yann2       I meant this : http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=37620
   12:25 smurf       ogra: people who are easily offended by that sort of thing are notoriously bad at researching :-/
   12:25 ogra        mako, but we want to encourage people like http://www.nubuntu.org/
   12:25 mako        the point is not to make a situation where canonical is the only person who can talk about ubuntu or use the image
   12:25 gnomefreak  im all for creativity but i think some of the images that were pointed to on the agenda wiki should have been kept off public display it makes ubuntu look bad to people that didnt know it was a "joke"
   12:25 ogra        smurf, true as well
   12:25 mako        what we don't want is for someone to put up a website
   === topyli [n=juha@dsl-hkigw3-fe23de00-139.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["I]
   12:25 mako        maybe selling a service or support
   12:25 tonyyarusso gnomefreak: Agreed.  And for many people, those things can never be a joke.
   12:25 mako        and confusing people into thinking that it is official ubuntu support
   12:25 mako        control over the name and logo is one way to do that
   12:26 mako        but we want to encourage the types of uses that spread the word, the logo, and the name
   12:26 xorAxAx     isnt this whole thing about a guy who realised that he cannot continue to move his idea further on without co-operating with the big entity?
   12:26 Yann2       ok, so we should accept these derivations?
   12:26 mako        when it's used in reference to the actual product
   12:26 mako        so, http://www.nubuntu.org/ needs to get permission from canonical
   12:26 mako        imho
   12:26 lucasvo     I think gnome-look.org should look that they only offer politically correct themes.
   12:26 Riddell     gnomefreak: how would you keep them off public display?
   12:26 mitsuhiko   mako: +1
   12:27 mako        because it's violated basically every thing on the list of guildeines that i posted earlier
   12:27 mako        and that has been on the website for years now
   12:27 tonyyarusso Logo derivations should also be expected to adhere to the CoC like everything else.
   12:27 Riddell     lucasvo: you can vote down items on gnome-look to stop them being displayed
   12:27 mako        that may still be fine
   12:27 mako        but they need permission
   12:27 smurf       lucasvo: define "politically correct". :-/
   12:27 ogra        mako, sure, but its one example hwre the logo isnt abused like in all the others pointed out
   12:27 mako        i understand
   12:27 ompaul      mako the issue that is now faced is the kubuntu name may be missued, this has implications on a larger scale, and frankly one that could be a serious issue, maybe trademark protection should be used to recover problematic domain useage and point it back to base, after a process that is designed and approved by cc or tech board or sabdfl or some some combination of all to protect the name of ubuntu  - done
   12:27 mako        ogra: "abuse" is subjective
   12:27 lucasvo     smurf: yeah, that's exactly why I used this term :)
   12:27 mako        we've got a set of trademark guidelines, and it's the only that most clearly violates those
   12:28 mako        from a trademark law perspective, it is the one that is most threatening to the existance of the mark
   12:28 mako        imho
   12:28 mako        ompaul: trademark law already does cover domain ussage
   12:28 ogra        mako, free user driven ubuntu derivative == non-abuse, selling support as ubantu.com with the same logo and font == abuse ;)
   12:28 mako        ompaul: as part of the universal domain name dispute resolution process
   12:28 smurf       mako: I guess what I'd like to see is a CC resolution that states that the Ubuntu community does not condone using (part of) their look+feel to convey any messages that are ad odds with the Ubuntu philosophy as stated on our home page
   12:28 gnomefreak  Riddell: you cant really but i think it should be known ubuntu doesnt support those things
   12:28 mako        ogra: umm..
   12:29 smurf       which we can point people to
   12:29 ogra        mako, but i fuly agree they should ask for permission indeed
   12:29 nalioth     smurf: +1
   12:29 ompaul      smurf, +1
   12:29 mdke        when someone has a doubt about the use of the mark, all they have to do is ask, right? We did this once with ubuntu-it, and it was resolved quickly
   12:29 mako        ogra: i would put it this way: if you're using hte logo in either of those ways, you need a license
   12:29 mako        ogra: we would be very very happy to give on to nubuntu probably
   12:29 ogra        thats waht i mean
   12:29 mako        ogra: and unwilling to give one to ubantu
   12:29 ogra        yep
   12:29 mako        but they both need them
   12:29 mako        yes
   12:29 mako        there is an email address
   12:29 mako        i don't know who answers it now
   12:29 mako        but i used to
   12:29 mako        which is why i know a little bit about this
   12:30 mdke        we mailed jane, dunno who gets the trademark mail though
   12:30 mako        trademark@ubuntu.com
   12:30 mako        and @canonical.com
   === xorAxAx [n=xorAxax@moinmoin/coreteam/alexander] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Nobody]
   === highvoltage would guess that it's claire
   12:30 elmo        marilize is behind trademarks
   12:30 mako        so, in terms of backgrounds and situations where it's not being used to promote another product or could not likely to confuse anyone into thinking that there is endorsement
   12:31 elmo        and they've given permission to nubuntu AFAIK
   12:31 mako        of a political message etc, i'd say it's fine
   12:31 Yann2       i'm fine with the trademark issue, we already sent a lot of emails to trademark@ :) But what should we do if someone posts a wallpaper like http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=37620 ? Delete it?
   12:31 mako        elmo: cool
   12:32 mitsuhiko   ok. i've to go. today is school and it's late
   12:32 mitsuhiko   good night all
   12:32 mako        Yann2: my personal opinion is that it's probably not a trademark violtion and should probably just be left
   12:32 mdke        Yann2, that's not being used to promote another product and won't confuse people into thinking there is endorsement
   12:32 SHAKAL      bye mitsuhiko
   12:32 mako        but if people at canonical disagree with me, they matter more on this issue
   12:32 highvoltage night mitsuhiko
   12:32 lucasvo     Yann2: afaik, it doesn't conflicts the trademark usage policy. maybe it conflicts with the law, in that case it should be removed
   12:33 BlueT_      mitsuhiko: see ya :)
   12:33 mdke        you can't stop people using your trademark for artistic purposes without any commercial gain, it's just silly
   12:33 Yann2       -1 for me, I clearly dislike the fact of seeing ubuntu associated with politics, which could be misunderstood by people visiting the website publishing them.
   12:33 elmo        I tend to agree with mako, FWIW, tho I don't count as Canonical in terms of trademarks
   12:34 mako        Yann2: i think it's in a forum where it is clearly user-contributed artwork
   12:34 ogra        Yann2, its just users ... as long as we dont publish it on our website they are as free as the internet lets them
   12:34 mdke        absolutely
   12:34 mako        it's like those ubuntu-butts pictures
   12:34 Yann2       ok, then... agreed.
   12:34 mdke        mmm
   12:34 Yann2       let's move on :)
   12:34 mako        smile, or don't, and move on
   12:34 ogra        (thats why i found the ubuntu ev reaction a bit ... umm funny)
   12:35 mdke        ok, we're nearly done. elmo answered the ed/kubuntu members question
   12:35 mako        mention rear-ends and the conversation ends
   12:35 kjcole      mako, I was going to mention the bikini bottom logo... ;-)
   12:35 ogra        kjcole, there is a logo ?
   12:35 mako        alright
   12:35 Seveas      about sub-locoteams: brazil and us already have them for instance
   12:35 lucasvo     kjcole: link? :D
   12:35 mdke        "Sub" LoCoTeams: this is fairly clearly answered on the locoteam pages, i.e. collaboration is very encouraged, and more locoteams are encouraged too
   12:35 mako        jerome is correct in answering the last question
   12:36 mako        sub-locos are fine
   12:36 mako        they're great
   12:36 kjcole      ogra, there was a photo on the fridge a while back as I recall...
   12:36 mako        collaborate where possible
   12:36 mako        try not to over-fragment so nobody gets anything done
   12:36 Yann2       fine :)
   12:36 ogra        kjcole, gah, missed that
   12:36 kjcole      ogra, lucasvo I just looked but couldn't find it.
   12:36 ompaul      .cn want to talk to someone aabout them they are population wise huge and cover more space than most
   12:36 mako        but go ahead, and encourage people to participate in more than one :)
   12:36 mako        ompaul: that's fine
   12:37 ogra        ompaul, we'll have to yount them first before we belive them ... :)
   12:37 ogra        *count
   12:37 mdke        I tend to think sub locoteams are generally done well if under the overall umbrella of the country they are found in. But that might not work, e.g. in the US :)
   12:37 kjcole      as a subloco team leader, +8 ;-)
   12:37 SHAKAL      I go to bed, the work call tomorrow good night. cya@ll
   12:37 juliux      gn8 SHAKAL
   === SHAKAL [n=marko@p54957624.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
   12:37 ompaul      ogra, you gona run outa fingers and toes fast :-)
   12:37 mako        i think that's it
   12:37 mako        unless there is any other business
   12:37 mako        alright
   12:38 mako        we'll meet back here soon
   12:38 mako        i gotta run
   12:38 mdke        night all, thanks
   12:38 Seveas      ciao
   12:38 mako        later all