Ubuntu Wiki

18:59 <@Seveas> Welcome to the second iteration of the Dapper Delay Meeting. This meeting will be more structured than other Ubuntu meetings. Please follow these guidelines:
18:59 < cyphase> Anaranth, ogra, 1AM
18:59 <@Seveas> * Make sure you have read the MeetingProcess page AND the summary of the last meeting (see topic)
18:59 <@Seveas> * If you have a comment about the proposal by Mark Shuttleworth, /msg me and wait your turn
18:59 <@Seveas> * Pre-write your comments in a consise way so you can easily paste them
18:59 <@Seveas> * STAY ON-TOPIC! and friendly the meeting will be busy enough without off-topic talk
18:59 <@Seveas> * If this all goes pear-shaped the channel will be set to +mi and you can folow it in #ubuntu-overflow
18:59 <@Seveas> sabdfl has the stage for the introduction - all be quiet please
18:59 < FlannelKing> sabdfl: glad to finally have a definiton of why this release is special.
19:00 < mordof> Aelor, yeah i messed up on the time
19:00 <@Seveas> FlannelKing, mordof - ssh
19:00 <@sabdfl> TIME
19:00 <@sabdfl> new balls
19:00 < mordof> ssh?
19:00 <@sabdfl> seveas to serve
19:00 < Stormx2> secure shell
19:00 < Kyral> hehe
19:00 <@Kamion> please be quiet and cut the off-topic chatter
19:00 <@sabdfl> -ENOTWIMBLEDON
19:00 <@Seveas> BE WARNED
19:01 <@sabdfl> ok, let's give it a minute for the folks to arrive
19:01 <@sabdfl> especially those who's alarm clocks just went off
19:01 <@ogra> :)
19:01 < cyphase> :)
19:01 <@Seveas> sabdfl, it's quite unusual for an Ubuntu meeting to start on time
19:01 <@sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
19:02 <@sabdfl> for those who weren't in this mornings town hall
19:02 < raphink> Seveas: it's quite unusual for sabdfl to be there at the beginning of a meeting, too :)
19:02 <@sabdfl> we are tight on time, i'm afraid
19:02 <@sabdfl> mdz and i need to leave for a Lp/distro leaders meeting in 1 hour
19:02 <@sabdfl> so let's get going!
19:02 <@Seveas> The ist of people who have comments is already growing
19:02 < raphink> and then there's TB in 2 hours
19:02 <@sabdfl> first, thank you to everyone who is here
19:03 <@mdz> Seveas: please filter questions/comments which are already addressed by your wiki summary
19:03 <@sabdfl> second, those of you who have comments, please read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
19:03 <@mdz> in the interest of time
19:03 <@sabdfl> msg seveas
19:03 <@sabdfl> pre-type your comments
19:03 <@sabdfl> if someone says what you wanted to say, please just say so when your turn comes
19:03 <@Seveas> To fulfill mdz' request: msg me your comments too!
19:03 <@sabdfl> we want to find as many new arguments for or against as possible
19:04 <@sabdfl> once we've had the first round of comments, i'll paste up a brief summary
19:04 <@sabdfl> then we will answer any specific questions that were asked
19:04 <@sabdfl> and then discuss new, high level issues
19:04 <@sabdfl> after that, i'll ask TB and CC to weigh in
19:04 <@sabdfl> ok?
19:05 <@sabdfl> seveas, how long is that list?
19:05 <@Seveas> around 10 so far
19:05 <@sabdfl> ok, let's go
19:05 <@Kamion> we're missing Keybuk from the TB
19:05 <@Seveas> ploum, go
19:05 < ploum> Hello
19:05 <@ogra> Kamion, can you call him?
19:05 < ploum> I think that a lot of communities and LUG have already scheduled an Install Party for Dapper. (My LUG, for example).
19:05 < ploum> I tought we will then only install Breezy but nobody in my LUG does agree with me !  Everyone want to, to a degree or another, allow people to install a "beta" or to dist-upgrade. (The party was originaly announced as an install/upgrade party)
19:05 < ploum> People think that it can't be that wrong but installing a non-stable release for non-geek people will, IMHO, gives a very bad opinions about Ubuntu (I just have an example in current dapper). I will do my best to convince people to not upgrade but I'm sure it will happens a lot and for a lot of beginners around the world. Even close friends with a strong Ubuntu knowledge are trying to convince me that it's better to install pre-dappe
19:05 < ploum> r than breezy because they are convinced that the 6 weeks delay is only "cosmetic things".
19:06 <@Seveas> please say "done" when you finished your comment!
19:06 < ploum> I think that this problem is a serious issue and that the "symbolic beta release" suggested in the first meeting must be more than a symbolic beta release so we can install it and have a wider hardware testing field.
19:06 < ploum> If it's not possible, would it be possible to have an "official recommandation" or something that says "do not try this at home kids".
19:06 < ploum> done
19:06 <@Seveas> thanks ploum
19:06 <@Seveas> hardawayd, 
19:06 <@Seveas> you're up
19:06 < hardawayd> First i would highly recommend the delay--dapper will be judged by my contacts--companies etc. against Novell and Redhat and it needs to be the best it can.  Also, for a year now i have been waiting for an easy interface to use with xsupplicant so wireless connections can be made at my university.  students now use windows and are willing to change but there has to be an easy interface to put in the peap-eap , mschapv2
19:06 < hardawayd>  parameters.  If the delay would mean that that could be accomplished it would be great.
19:06 < hardawayd> done
19:06 < LeonWP> hi
19:06 < frodon> hi
19:07 <@Seveas> thanks hardawayd 
19:07 <@Seveas> Kamion, 
19:07 <@mdz> hardawayd: the delay is proposed in order to achieve very specific goals, not as a general extension of the feature freeze
19:07 <@Kamion> I'm concerned about keeping staff in crunch mode for an extra six weeks; I think productivity is going to take a hit through sheer tiredness.
19:07 <@Kamion> Pushing the release to after debconf means that either we won't be able to get any significant benefit from attending debconf, or productivity for that chunk of time will be significantly reduced.
19:07 <@Kamion> Once we take the above into account, I question whether we'd get all that much more done in six weeks than we would in two.
19:08 <@Seveas> Anyone who wants to comment: To fulfill mdz' request: msg me your comments too!
19:08 <@mdz> debconf will be a nice opportunity to take a break
19:08 <@sabdfl> mdz: for those of us going. i think kamion has a point, need to figure it out carefully
19:08 <@Seveas> Kamion, was that all?
19:08 <@ogra> Kamion, done ? 
19:08 <@mdz> I don't think that 2 weeks would be enough to mete our goals
19:08 <@Kamion> sorry, done
19:08 <@mdz> s/mete/meet/
19:08 <@Seveas> ok, thanks Kamion - bimberi is next
19:09 < bimberi> The aspects that are the communicated reasons for the delay become very important and will attract focus.  So, for example, localisation will become something that people will focus on because the delay was to make it better.  Hence it has to be good.
19:09 < bimberi> done
19:09 <@Seveas> thank you - cyphase is up
19:09 < cyphase> While initially I didn't want the delay (I wanted Dapper now! :P), I think that the delay is a good idea, although 6 weeks seems like a lot. A month might be better.
19:09 < cyphase> Along with the proposed changes, we should use the time to make sure there are absolutely no hardware regressions. Seems several cards that used to work with ndiswrapper are having many problems now.
19:09 < cyphase> Lastly, as mentioned in the first meeting, there should be something in the releases name that indicates it's special. Maybe it could be something like "Ubuntu 6.04: A Polished Edition" :)
19:09 < cyphase> Done
19:10 <@Seveas> ok, FunnyLookinHat 
19:10 < FunnyLookinHat> I think that errors/bugs found much later than releases, such as the root password flaw discovered in breezy a few days ago, are a good reason to delay the release by 6 weeks.  This release is the first "Corporate" release and should have extra care taken to make sure all is set to make a good impression and product.
19:10 < FunnyLookinHat> All of that to take into effect, into addition the fact that Supplicant needs to be supported and stable.  It's a very important feature for College users who needs wireless with WPA support as already stated.
19:10 < FunnyLookinHat> done.
19:10 <@Seveas> thanks FunnyLookinHat - next up is highvoltage 
19:10 <@Kamion> please skip comments that have already been raised by others
19:10 <@Seveas> Kamion, I'm filtering as much as I can - it's hectic here ?
19:11 <@mdz> for the record, the delay is entirely unrelated to the recently-publicized security vulnerability; the proposal was made before it was known in fact
19:11 <@Seveas> highvoltage, ?
19:11 < highvoltage> sure.
19:11  * sivang is here as all
19:11 < highvoltage> hi Seveas. I have one argument that counts for both against and for the postponement.
19:11 < highvoltage> I work on the tuXlabs project, where we have 200 computer labs set up in schools in south africa, we have put in a huge amount of planning to get the dapper edubuntu release rolled out in May (month after dapper release).
19:11 < highvoltage> The postponement throws us out to a large extent. On the other hand, we really *need* a very stable release, so we would rather have a later, better release and be inconvenienced, if it means that we can provide a better system to the benefactors.
19:11 < highvoltage> i think there may be other, similar projects that have planned around the date too, but quality is always a top priority.
19:12 < highvoltage> done;
19:12 <@Seveas> thanks highvoltage - Tonio_ you're up
19:12 <@ogra> (edubuntu could get hard frozen on time)
19:12 < Tonio_> the actual schedule for kde 3.5.2 is a few days/weeks before dapper relase, and reporting it would help for a better kde integration, cause 3.5.1 still has lots of bugs
19:12 < Tonio_> some majors like kdeprint doesn't work etc...
19:13 < Tonio_> that's why I would vote for the new release date, cause kubuntu isn't as mature as ubuntu in it's actual state
19:13 < Tonio_> done
19:13 <@Seveas> thank you Tonio_ 
19:13 <@Seveas> janimo, 
19:13 < janimo> delay good, more time for xfce polish for xubuntu
19:13 < janimo> done
19:13 <@Seveas> ok, last on my list is raphink 
19:14 < raphink> We see on the users mailing lists that more and more users are wanting to switch to Dapper. People are eager to test it, but some don't want to take the risk to use a distro not frozen yet. I'm thinking many people might be deceived to have to wait 6 more weeks, which is about 1/5 of the total dev time. 
19:14 < raphink> I'd rather delay by a 1 or 2 weeks (and keep 6.04 which is an almost known name) if that was possible.
19:14 <@Seveas> if I forgot anyone - yell in a /msg
19:15 <@Seveas> raphink, was that all?
19:15 <@mdz> raphink: a delay of 1 or 2 weeks is not enough time to have these new features implemented and tested
19:15 < raphink> Seveas: yes that was it, sorry
19:15 <@sabdfl> ok, folks who have not yet spoken, msg seveas
19:15 < sivang> may I?
19:15 <@mdz> we're still in the process of specifying the functionality
19:15 <@Seveas> sivang, yes
19:15 < sivang> 1) I would like to be able to include UPBackup (Home User Backup) in ubuntu dapper and this extension might make this possible. a package will be shortly uploaded soon to universe to show where this is going.
19:15 <@Seveas> (there are new /msg'es flowing in)
19:15 < sivang> 2) From the ISV certification, this extension will allow to to push the certification a bit further and do more testing / integration. as I helped with DB2 and intend to help on for dapper, I therefor support it.
19:15 < toma> Speaking on behalf a company that is working towards a POS-retail distribution with Ubuntu, we are more than comfortable with a few week delay. What is the worst case scenario, time wise?
19:15 <@mdz> sivang: the delay is proposed in order to achieve very specific goals, not as a general extension of the feature freeze
19:16 <@sabdfl> toma: 1st week of June
19:16 < toma> Thank you
19:16 <@Seveas> sivang, was that all>?
19:16 < sivang> mdz: I understand, still for sake of polish and most important - bug fixing, I support it as well.
19:16 < hardawayd> i thought the wireless goals were in the dapper goals originally--am i wrong?
19:16 <@Seveas> please refrain from discussing at this point
19:16 <@Seveas> there are still comments comming
19:16 < NetGeek> would programs get updated during that 6 week delay?
19:17 <@Seveas> ompaul, go
19:17 <@sabdfl> hardawayd: we evaluated NetworkManager for Dapper, which would likely give us WPA, but it's not ready
19:17 < ompaul> Thanks Seveas Simple point, if we get all these extra l10n items into Dapper then when it becomes 6.X or 6-X the new possible long support base is going to be huge, should on the other hand this not happen then when is then l10n to get a long life version why are we restricting the Human Linux to some Humans?
19:17 <@mdz> hardawayd: no, WPA was never a stated goal for Dapper, and as far as I know there were no developers working on it during the cycle
19:17 < ompaul> done
19:17 < cyphase> sabdfl, isn't it in main?
19:17 <@Seveas> thanks ompaul 
19:17 <@Seveas> Xanadu, you're up
19:18 <@Seveas> Xanadu, now is last on the list of *new* comments
19:18 < Xanadu> ta some comments to the Tectonic site from Ubuntu users (thought they should be heard)
19:18 < Xanadu> Posted by Ubuntu User
19:18 < Xanadu> They should stay on course with the release on April 20th!
19:18 < Xanadu> Change the dates and the support (because hey, they are going to really need another 6 months to get it up... and don't do CDs for this release (only take pre-orders for Full release when it comes out.ll in 45 days or 90 days?
19:18 < Xanadu> Call the April release " Fetal DAPPER " and when they got it ready - call it Baby Dapper , then do a bug fixed version called Dapper Flys!
19:18 < Xanadu> And print the CDs based on DapperFlys version version! That would be the supportable 5yr version and the final release target!
19:18 < Xanadu> However, all networking and basic appa (like Edubuntu default install of 2 NICs vs just 1 NIC) should be in place for April 20 "Fetal" release. All the extras Mark is taking about could come in Baby Dapper, and then declare a party for DapperFly (at last)and release a CD version based on that (hey, it could be fall before this is ready to FLY, given the historic way that some programming issues are resolved... I have seen more release d
19:18 < Xanadu> ates pushed back and push back and that is as frustrating as anything...)!
19:18 < Xanadu> Fetal Dapper
19:18 < Xanadu> Baby Dapper
19:18 < Xanadu> Sounds like a sane and not unusual approach to a rather common issue with operating systems. Hopefully the community has some sense of marketing and will appreciate his concern for delaying the Dapper release, after all this is a major release and one shouldn't start walking before a having had a good crawl around the office first.
19:18 < Xanadu> Actually, when was the last time an Os got released in time ... oh yeah, about six months ago ;-P
19:18 < Xanadu> I just keep my hopes up the debian project will benefit in full from this ubuntu thingy ...
19:18 -!- aboe [n=aboe@tb-c-76ec.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
19:18 < Xanadu> Posted by Daniel Mejia
19:18 < Xanadu> English.
19:18 < Xanadu> I think it is a good idea because not only they can polish some applications like the gdebi they can also work on somethin very innovative like an interface to make all the opion of an user avalible in only one window, like a user configuration to set everything from theme to preffered mp3 player :D
19:19 < Xanadu> RE: Shuttleworth wants six week delay for Dapper
19:19 -!- mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %Xanadu!*@*] by Seveas
19:19 <@sabdfl> Seveas: easy tiger
19:19 <@Seveas> Xanadu, we asked for brief comments - now is not the time for large messages
19:19 <@sabdfl> he was just trying to help
19:19 <@Seveas> (sabdfl: to stop the paste flood)
19:19 -!- mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-b %Xanadu!*@*] by Seveas
19:19 <@sabdfl> Xanadu: the process did ask you to be careful not to flood
19:19 < Xanadu> soz trying to give opinion of the masses
19:19 < Xanadu> okay lots more on the site then
19:19 <@sabdfl> we have 318 people here, masses enough :-)
19:20 <@sabdfl> Xanadu: a url would suffice
19:20 <@sabdfl> ok
19:20 <@sabdfl> anybody that msg's seveas but is feeling censored?
19:20 <@sabdfl> nobody :-)
19:20 < Xanadu> done
19:20 <@Seveas> siretart probably
19:20 <@Seveas> he just /msg'ed
19:20 <@sabdfl> siretart: go
19:20 < siretart> sabdfl: I noticed that there is a high priority spec, which has been delayed for dapper
19:20 <@Seveas> siretart will be the absolute last one - there was time enough already to /msg
19:21 < siretart> network authentication
19:21 < siretart> if I remember correctly it was delayed because of lack of time
19:21 < siretart> could that be reconsidered for dapper, given that we get additional 6 weeks?
19:21 <@ogra> siretart, <mdz> : the delay is proposed in order to achieve very specific goals, not as a general extension of the feature freeze
19:22 < s_spiff> yello ppl
19:22 <@Seveas> ok, so that was it
19:22 <@Seveas> sabdfl, the stage is yours again
19:22 <@mdz> please, no more proposals for new features
19:22 <@sabdfl> siretart: i'd love that, but i don't think it will pass the TB
19:22 < Stormx2> what now? ;-)
19:22 < siretart> ogra: I read that. but this is a very special concern, I think
19:22 <@sabdfl> i'm on thin enough ice already
19:22 <@mdz> the reason we're delaying is because we already have too much to do
19:22 < NetGeek> but the feature freeze may need to be reviewed, or Dapper will leave the gate lagging behind in software
19:22 <@sabdfl> and because we want to provide extra polish on the good work that has been done over 4 releases
19:23 <@sabdfl> NetGeek: if we put out dapper on april 20, then on June 1st the software will be just as old
19:23 <@sabdfl> but not just as polished
19:23 < hardawayd> all the polish in the world is not going to overcome the lack of wireless access
19:23 < siretart> well, basically this is a Mithrandir spec. perhaps he can comment on that?
19:23 <@sabdfl> we would only gain in currency for a very short time if we released early
19:23 <@sabdfl> we already have a dapper release that is well behind our normal gnome+1day release
19:24 <@sabdfl> Mithrandir: ?
19:24 < sagarab> considering 18:23:13 by mdz -- and assuming 6 week delay... do u reckon 6 weeks is long enough to complete  what u've already got on your plate?
19:24 < Mithrandir> sabdfl: pong?
19:24 <@mdz> hardawayd: we've heard you; please, this is not a forum for feature requests but to discuss the delay
19:24 <@Kamion> I'm concerned that dapper+1 will be a pretty shoddy release given that we're going to have to shorten it a lot, BTW
19:24 <@sabdfl> Mithrandir: siretart is asking re network auth
19:24 <@ogra> Kamion++
19:24 <@Seveas> Kamion, just don't add too much new features to Edgy
19:24 <@mdz> sagarab: yes, the 6 week figure was my recommendation
19:25 <@Kamion> Seveas: dapper+1 is all ABOUT new features
19:25 < Xanadu> sabdfl: who's going to decide at end of the day?
19:25 < NetGeek> sabdfl: I just don't want to see 5000 backport request the first day Dapper is out, That may be unavoidable:)
19:25 < hardawayd> i agree to delay it as long as they want--it will not have any practical effect that i can see
19:25 < ploum> Kamion++
19:25 <@sabdfl> Kamion: agreed
19:25 <@ogra> Seveas, its what all devs are waiting for, we had to keep our feet quite in dapper
19:25 < sladen> Xanadu: Community Council
19:25 <@mdz> Kamion: we expect to delay dapper+1 somewhat to compensate for that (not the full 6 weeks, but some)
19:25 <@sabdfl> ok
19:25 <@sabdfl> let me paste up a brief summary
19:26 < subsonic_shadow> hello
19:26 < Mithrandir> sabdfl: I've estimated it at 30 days; it could be done, but I'm only one person and I'm busy trying to fix espresso keyboard handling as well as having been dragged into some korean keyboard handling lately, so I would need to drop a bit of that if we wanted it in.
19:26 < sivang> Kamion: Edgy?
19:26 < Mithrandir> sabdfl: and it would be really nice to have it in too, but there wasn't time before FF.
19:27 < ailean> in my opinion the 6 week delay is way too long. many new users to linux have been waiting for the day it's released and the delay of a month and a half stinks too much of certain other companies. I do think a shorter delay would be possible.
19:27 < tmahmood> Can ubuntu installer use graphical mode?
19:27 <@Kamion> tmahmood: -> #ubuntu
19:27 <@Seveas> tmahmood, this is not a support channel
19:27 < aboe> just a question maybe, if dapper is postponed 6 weeks, but dapper+1 needs the development time, isn't it possible to do both at the same time...
19:27 <@sabdfl> http://pastebin.co.uk/501
19:27 <@sabdfl> sorry about hte PHP syntax
19:28 <@Seveas> sabdfl, paste.ubuntu-nl.org ;)
19:28 <@ogra> sabdfl, LP needs a pastebot ;)
19:28 < xhaker> dapper+1 need more developers/contributers, with more people it can be done in time even with this delay, 6 weeks could be asked again if there is something like this wpa blahblah that would rather be included than delayed for next release (i really think wpa is not reason for delay, and i know it's not)
19:28 < Aelor> sabdfl, no pb i think :)
19:28 < tmahmood> oh no.. I was asking will dapper have a graphical Installer?
19:28 <@mdz> ailean: while your confidence in the development team is flattering, I can't agree
19:28 < dholbach> aboe: that question was answered this morning already, no, it requires to much manpower
19:28 < Aelor> tmahmood, not the time to ask new things
19:28 < Kyral> tmahmood: -> #ubuntu+1
19:28 <@sabdfl> tmahmood: 
19:28 < aboe> ok
19:28 < aboe> thanks dholbach 
19:28 <@sabdfl> ok
19:28 <@sabdfl> quick answers...
19:29 <@sabdfl> hardawayd: WPA is a top user request, but we have no straightforward way to implement
19:29 <@sabdfl> i will review any community contributions
19:29 <@sabdfl> (and ask the TB to do so)
19:29 <@sabdfl> so if you can get a posse organised and get something to review, we can consider it
19:29 < sagarab> i agree to the principle of more polish is a good thing... but do we also agree what exactly and how much we want to polish... do we have any specific targets or its more like test-fix-test-fix cycle??
19:29 < Danster> since we're speaking about polishing.. what about i18n/l10n updates? are they going to be accepted during this delay? for example, russian kubuntu is in a pretty crappy state, being ~70% english
19:29 <@sabdfl> in the absence of an organised community effort, it will not happen in Dapper, but is feasible in Dapper+1
19:30 <@mdz> sagarab: the targets were laid out in the email proposing the delay
19:30 <@sabdfl> Danster: yes, l10n is open throughout
19:30 < cmk1337> sabdfl, check this thread http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=139334&highlight=NetworkManager, nm packages that support wpa and work for me are in there
19:30 <@Seveas> Danster, that is ongoing work and yes, l10n polish is high priority
19:30 < Polmac> just out of interest, which parts of dapper would be in more need of the six-week delay?
19:30 < Xanadu> sabdfl: What do your existing enterprise customers say they want ito delay vs quality?
19:30 <@sabdfl> cmk1337: please mail me, mark@ubuntu.com
19:30 < sagarab> thanks mdz was aware of that. was just wondering if there was more to it
19:30 <@sabdfl> Xanadu: quality
19:30 < dholbach> sagarab: apart from that http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs
19:31 < sagarab> thanks dholbach
19:31 <@sabdfl> Kamion: i agree on the risk of exhausting our core team and motu
19:31 < _ion> Also concerning the new network-manager: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=144081
19:31 <@Seveas> sabdfl, my pm tabs are filled with request to have a sort-of baby-dapper on april 20
19:31 <@sabdfl> i hope, though, that the extra time will actually make things a bit more sane
19:31 < ailean> will this delay lead to a longer development cycle in the future or is that going to remain the same?
19:31 < dholbach> _ion: we decided on a process for that already
19:31 < juliux> Seveas, +1
19:31 < Kyral> Seveas++
19:31 < sivang> can we have someone/TB/someones to review specs/ goal that missed FF, that might get completed over the delay period? or is this a no go from maturity POV?
19:31 < cyphase> Seveas, +1
19:31 < Burgwork> Seveas, if we push the beta on that day
19:31 <@sabdfl> i think the team would find it requires superhuman effort to test everything to long-term-support levels by april 20
19:31 < cmk1337> sabdfl, will do, thanks
19:31 < Stormx2> sabdfl: *you're* mark?
19:31 < natroll> Seveas, ++1
19:31 < subsonic_shadow> people who want a baby dapper can download flight 5, no?
19:31 <@mdz> sivang: already answered that twice
19:31 < Xanadu> sabdfl: "quality" - doesn't that answer the question then?
19:31 <@sabdfl> so, while there's new work, the six week delay is time to do that gracefully, without hurting any of us
19:32 < siretart> sabdfl: re wpa: I have prepared with crimsun and kel modderman a new wpasupplicant package which integrates nicely in /etc/network/interfaces. I think it shouldn't be hard to integrate that to gnome-system-tools
19:32 < sivang> mdz: okay, sorry.
19:32 < jdub> having a super-beta on april 20 would be cool; something we can strongly recommend the community upgrade to
19:32 <@sabdfl> Xanadu: prefer longer term quality than the april 20 date
19:32 <@ogra> subsonic_shadow, flight 7 :)
19:32 < trappist> if i18n and l10n issues are a major reason for considering the delay, can't updates to those be pushed post-release as bugfixes?
19:32 <@sabdfl> jdub: +1
19:32 < dholbach> can we agree on answering *one* questions at a time? :)
19:32 < Kyral> lol
19:32 < ruben>  jdub: +1
19:32 < juliux> jdub, +1
19:32 <@Seveas> it's going almost pear-shaped
19:32 < jjesse> couldn't you call in it a community technology preview :)
19:32 <@Kamion> trappist: some can, some can't; those that need to go in shipped CD images can't, for example
19:32 < ploum> jdub++  
19:32 <@sabdfl> siretart: get cracking, let's focus on other issues here
19:32 < jdub> besides, i want my birthday present.
19:32 <@Seveas> people, random +1 and offtopicness won't help
19:32 < ltibor65> sabdfl, how many people work on the developing of Dapper?
19:33 <@ogra> jdub++
19:33 < raphink> Seveas: ++
19:33 < raphink> ;)
19:33 < olive> jdub: +1
19:33 < Rehto> *a curious pclinuxos user comes to check this out*
19:33 <@sabdfl> bimberi: you're absolutely right that we will be judged against the rationale for the delay
19:33 < Stormx2> Seveas: ++
19:33 <@sabdfl> we have the l10n team here working hard on Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Thai
19:33 < theoddone> more on-topic ! what about incremental but unpredictable releases of ubuntu desktop and fixed predictable releases of ubuntu server and enterprise desktop ?
19:33 <@sabdfl> we will shortly call for contributions for other tricky but important languages
19:33 <@Seveas> theoddone, please....
19:33 < jdub> bimberi: there is actually a really good message in the rationale for the delay, something that speaks well of ubuntu, despite the slip
19:33 < ploum> the important thing about a "super-beta" is that we can recommend it to anybody and will not "maybe destroy your computer"
19:33 <@Seveas> don't make me +mi the chat
19:34 <@sabdfl> we have made good progress in understanding what's needed to help make those languages work well
19:34 < bimberi> jdub: agreed!
19:34 <@sabdfl> with good community support, testing, and contributions we will be able to get a LOT done with the new release date
19:34 <@sabdfl> also, Rosetta now has most of dapper uploaded
19:34 <@Seveas> sabdfl, yay!
19:34 < natroll> ok, what about just releasing a dist-upgrade package on the 20th, then release the cds on the release date 6 weeks off
19:34 <@sabdfl> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+translations iirc
19:35 < sivang> sabdfl: you have RTL langa on your mind as well ? :)
19:35 < sivang> s/langa/languages/
19:35 < dholbach> natroll: dist-upgrade worked around 3-4 days after breezy release already :)
19:35 < tmahmood> need more better support for Bengali language. when I open a Bengali website its a complete mass
19:35 < cyphase> Seveas, "yay!" isn't much better then "+1" ;)
19:35 <@sabdfl> sivang: yes, please chat with daf or mvo to make sure hebrew, arabic and others work well
19:35 < xhaker> Seveas: the question about developer number was pretty in context... with more developers dapper+1 might be release without much delay
19:35 < subsonic_shadow> imo, take the 6 weeks, I've seen to many companies rush stuff (specially game developpers) and they delivered a craptastic game
19:35 < natroll> dholbach, well, to 'publicize it' i mean then :)
19:35 < dholbach> tmahmood: this is not the time to complains about bugs.
19:35 < sivang> sabdfl: sure thing, I will see what else we can add there from IM aspect.
19:35 <@sabdfl> highvoltage: good point, i will call for more discussion on large planned deployments later
19:36 < natroll> dholbach, as a consolation of sorts
19:36 <@sabdfl> Tonio_: yes, we plan to integrate KDE 3.5.2 but that does depend on KDE getting it done on time
19:36 <@sabdfl> ironically
19:36 < tmahmood> well this delay is for fixing some bugs right?
19:36 < Xanadu> why not release preflight on 20th and make it clear to the "community" that it's what would have been released on that date, and to expect big update if they can't wait 6 weeks. 
19:36 < Tonio_> sabdfl: sure ;) thanks for the response !
19:36 <@sabdfl> janimo: im very keen to see XFCE well polished, so the slip will help us consider XFCE for main
19:36 < dholbach> tmahmood: yes, but we're not here to list our favourite bugs
19:36 < Kyral> dholbach has scheduled a HUG day for this Friday....
19:36 <@mdz> tmahmood: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-March/000094.html
19:36 -!- mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+m] by Seveas
19:36 <@Seveas> please people
19:36 <@Seveas> sabdfl is answering the comments
19:36 <@Seveas> all the offtopicness makes it hard to follow
19:36 <@sabdfl> Kamion: will also call for discussion on Dapper+1
19:37 <@sabdfl> (and BTW need animal names for E..)
19:37 <@Seveas> do NOT list/repeat your favourite issues
19:37 <@sabdfl> ok
19:37 -!- mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-m] by Seveas
19:37 <@sabdfl> that's quick answers to the things folks raised earlier
19:37 < natroll> Early Echidna
19:37 <@sabdfl> there are some "discussion" topics that i'd like to call for comments on
19:37 <@sabdfl> Early... :-)
19:37 < natroll> hehe :D
19:37 < Kyral> heheh
19:37 <@sabdfl> first, highvoltage's "large scale planned deployments"
19:38 <@sabdfl> is anyone here planning a large deployment of Dapper before June?
19:38 < natroll> better than Ergonomic Elephant, i suppose :D
19:38 < cyphase> Electric Eel
19:38  * Seveas raises hand
19:38 <@Seveas> natroll, cyphase stop!
19:38 <@sabdfl> that cannot be delayed
19:38 < Xanadu> SARS might
19:38  * sabdfl stays seveas hand...
19:38 < ailean> what is large scale??
19:38 <@Seveas> sabdfl, I have several intro-courses planned in May
19:38 <@sabdfl> folks, i did not call for animal names HERE :-)
19:38 <@ogra> sabdfl, as i said earlier, edubuntu specifics would be in place on 20th and be ready to freeze, but that doesnt saver from changes in the ubuntu core 
19:38  * highvoltage reminds users who have recendly joined to read /topic before posting anything
19:38 <@sabdfl> large-scale would be hundreds+
19:38 <@Seveas> sabdfl, the were moved from april to may for dapper cd's
19:38 < ailean> then no
19:39  * Kyral highly reccommends a channel for meeting comments....
19:39 <@Seveas> expecting 100+ users
19:39 < Xanadu> Sars=South African Revenue Service, out for tender at the moment
19:39 <@Seveas> I'm going to look like a fool ?
19:39 <@Kamion> as I said to ogra in /msg earlier, I do not think it is at all practical to consider derivative releases separately
19:39 <@sabdfl> Seveas: we could possible send preview CD's if that helps
19:39 <@Seveas> sabdfl, oh yeah
19:39 <@Seveas> sabdfl, having to burn 100cd's is just too much
19:39  * ploum also expect more than 100 people to his install party because it was the case for the breezy party
19:39 < derrick81787> other than polishing certain languages, is there anything else that couldn't be changed fairly easily in an update? if not, it could be recomended that people using the fully supported languages upgrade on the 20th, and everyone else wait the 6 weeks if they wish to have a more polished version
19:39 < aboe> would love to see preview cd's
19:39 <@sabdfl> Seveas: ok, i will make a plan to help you out there
19:39 <@Kamion> sabdfl: that's going to take quite a lot of resources to produce CDs of quality we think is worth spending money on pressing lots of
19:40 <@sabdfl> Kamion: would find a local run of Flight or beta's for Seveas
19:40 <@Seveas> sabdfl, sbartleylinux wants to say something too in this regard
19:40 <@Seveas> sbartleylinux, please go ahead
19:40 < linbetwin> more than 1000 users voted on ubuntuforums in favour of the delay (91%)
19:40 <@Seveas> linbetwin, irrelevant
19:40 <@Seveas> the CC decides - not the forum users
19:40 < Danster> sabdfl - we're already shipping our PCs with dapper.. that's about 20-30 daily
19:40 < sbartleylinux> We are a software development organization.  We are designing our next release around Ubuntu.  The current plan is to go to Alpha with our project in June on Dapper.  A delay of 6 weeks will most likely force us to rework most of our project and remain on Breezy until Dapper +1 or later.  This is not our wish at all.
19:40 < shinmen> sabdfl: I work for an ISP that has a datacenter, and I one of our clients made the comment that they planned to build a couple of racks with dapper to test them as servers. AFAIK, they did planned it before June. Aprox 30+ machines.
19:40 < sbartleylinux>  We selected Ubuntu in part due to the regular scheduled release cycle we could map to.
19:40 <@mdz> derrick81787: implementing the localization changes means less time spent on QA, so we need more time to fix existing bugs as well
19:41 <@sabdfl> ploum: i hear you on the installfest. how would you feel about saying "this is beta quality, automatically upgradeable, known to work in this language, no major changes expected"
19:41 <@sabdfl> sbartleylinux: ok, this is important
19:41 < sbartleylinux> very much so for us.
19:41 <@sabdfl> sbartleylinux: does your product ship in many languages?
19:41 < ploum> sabdfl: it could be enough but we need some minimal guaranties
19:41 < sbartleylinux> no, just english.
19:42 < yaaar> is there a middle ground here? perhaps the delay could proceed, but shorter?
19:42 <@sabdfl> ploum: i expect that dapper will be very stable (as stable as breezy) by april 20
19:42 < shinmen> (In Costa Rica, in case that's important)
19:42 <@sabdfl> sbartleylinux: i expect dapper to be in very good shape in english by the dates you were expecting it
19:42 < ailean> so will there be another flight by that point even if the final release isn't ready?
19:42 < libervisco> it seems to me the best solution would be to release a stable preview in time and then a final six weeks later
19:42 <@sabdfl> sbartleylinux: do you touch kernel, libc, X, or gnome?
19:42 < olive> ok, so I don't have to cancell the install party of paris ?
19:43 < linbetwin> seveas: but why release "baby dapper" if the community fully understands the need for the delay? it will only confuse people
19:43 < ploum> sabdfl: then it should be enough. Thank you for your answer.  Will it be possible to have an ISO image of a "guaranteed" pre-dapper on that date ?
19:43 < sbartleylinux> sabdfl, no. 
19:43 < natroll> sabdfl, what is the issue with updating the installer after the release to include the other languages?
19:43 <@mdz> ploum: what sort of guarantee are you looking for?
19:43 <@sabdfl> sbartleylinux: what packages do you modify in the underlying OS of your product?
19:43 < schlurchz> sabdfl: do you expect large update volumes for such an install? I consider installing on a modem-connected machine. 
19:43 < yaaar> ploum: your use of 'guarantee' in context of OSS worries me...
19:44 < ploum> mdz: you can install this image as you would have with breezy
19:44 < ploum> nothing more than that
19:44 <@sabdfl> schlurchz: possibly, because even a small oo.o change is a big download
19:44 <@mdz> natroll: the installer will be included on a rather large number of CDs which can't be updated after the release
19:44 < Xanadu> sabdfl: will the Chinese and other extra language support be installed as a base package? 
19:44 < schlurchz> sabdfl: thx
19:44 <@mdz> ploum: breezy is stable and will receive only critical updates; we can't say the same of dapper on 20 april
19:44 < Deb> hello
19:45 <@pitti> Xanadu: we will work towards out of the box support, but probably not on the CD
19:45 <@sabdfl> Xanadu: no, but they need to be installed for chinese users
19:45 < giftnudel> what reason is there not to update cd's after an inital release?
19:45 < sbartleylinux> sabdfl, We add some things to xorg for configs only.  Not really anything else that I can think of and nothing that I would say is modified.
19:45 < ploum> mdz: It's not what I'm trying to say. 
19:45 <@sabdfl> so they need to be high quality on the disk
19:45 <@Seveas> giftnudel, they're kind-a unchangable on disk...
19:45 <@ogra> giftnudel, costs 
19:45 <@sabdfl> sbartleylinux: then i think you will find that dapper by april 20 is robust for your needs, in other words, i think your alpha need not be delayed
19:45 < giftnudel> yeah, but publish an updated version?
19:45 <@Kamion> natroll: also rebuilding some bits of the installer after release is non-trivial; for instance it is not susceptible to language-pack-based updates
19:45 <@sabdfl> sbartleylinux: please discuss with infinity your specific case, he will know better whether you may have issues
19:46 <@mdz> giftnudel: we ship large numbers of CDs worldwide
19:46 < unf> I have been using dapper since flight2, with no serious problems. So why would I need "bady dapper"? 
19:46 < sbartleylinux> sabdfl, will do. thanks.
19:46 <@Kamion> giftnudel: cost, QA time
19:46 <@sabdfl> Xanadu: the langpacks let us update translations after release, but not things like input methods or keyboards
19:46 < yaaar> unf; do you mean for 'baby dapper' to mean more than a flight delivered on/about 4/20?
19:46 < giftnudel> ok, I see
19:46 <@sabdfl> ok, any other large-scale deployment impacts?
19:46 < jdub> unf: (it's more about satisfying other users who are expecting an ubuntu release in april, and bringing on more people for testing.)
19:46 < Aelor> Xanadu, and languages packs take much place in a CD
19:46 < Xanadu> sabdfl and pitti: then english users won't see huge downloads later if they run preview release
19:47 <@sabdfl> Xanadu: they might: kernel, xorg, libc, will all be getting small fixes and stability, but that means package downloads
19:47 < Xanadu> at least for the language stuff
19:47 <@pitti> Xanadu: they will, many packages will be updated until the final release
19:47 <@sabdfl> it should be safe to wait till release, then update in one go
19:47 < jdub> sabdfl: perhaps, one last time, it might be worth using the word 'preview' again :-)
19:47 < trappist> sabdfl: they'll get those anyway, right?
19:48 < natroll> Kamion, I understand that issue, but I guess I fail to understand the significance of the installer supporting the different languages for those who don't require those languages.  I can understand the delay in being able to order the cds by those who require unsupported languages...i guess the logistics of selecting which cds to order would be terrible too...hmm..
19:48 <@sabdfl> jdub: yes, we can discuss the full schedule
19:48 <@sabdfl> ok, next big topic
19:48 <@sabdfl> kamion's
19:48 <@sabdfl> what will the effect of a dapper delay be on dapper+1?
19:48 < rekrutacja> sabdfl, little bit offtopic: we are starting free textbooks (http://www.wolnepodreczniki.pl/, but it's just an ugly "we will be here in the future" page) project in Poland and right now we are creating tools for community. we would like to re-use ubuntu code of conduct (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct) but we are not sure what is legal status of this text. 
19:48 < sladen> jdub: +1  I think 'preview' makes sense;  because the feature set will change, just more things will _work_ by release
19:48 < Burgwork> rekrutacja, please ask another time
19:48 <@Seveas> (household notice: more l10n discussions, offtopic talk or other rambling -> ban)
19:49 < rekrutacja> Burgwork, OK
19:49 < sladen> s/will/will not/
19:49 < Aelor> rekrutacja, ask on #ubuntu maybe
19:49 <@sabdfl> rekrutacja: afterwards, ok?
19:49 < rekrutacja> sabdfl, OK'
19:49 <@sabdfl> current thinking on dapper+1 is we should delay 2-3 weeks
19:49 < Amaranth> sabdfl: from what i've heard the best plan would be shortening the time for dapper+1, +2, and +3 two weeks each
19:49 <@ogra> sabdfl++
19:50 <@sabdfl> the "action plan" for dapper+1 is that it will be bottom-up "find awesome tech and bring it in" rather than top-down "these are the things we need"
19:50 <@ogra> even 4 ... 
19:50 < ailean> do you mean 2-3 weeks on top of the usual 6 months? or 2-3 weeks on top of the original release date (6 months from the original release date of Dapper)
19:50  * jdub suggests shipping edgy precisely on the six month schedule mark. reduce goals to suit. strongly demonstrate the commitment to our schedule.
19:50 < yaaar> sabdfl: what's wrong with just having dapper+1 six months after dapper? just have a one-time bump and don't try to make up the lost time
19:50 < Madpilot> jdub, ++
19:50 < Aelor> jdub, +1
19:50 <@Kamion> I like jdub's plan, but we need to be absolutely brutal about goals at the next conference
19:50 < MarioMeyer> jdub, ++
19:50 <@Seveas> Kamion, hire fabbione as guard
19:51 < barsanuphe> jdub++
19:51 < mwt> jdub++
19:51 <@sabdfl> in other words, the team will have something of a sabbatical from the tyrrany of sabdfl-imposed specs :-)
19:51 <@Kamion> yaaar: pushes it a long way after the GNOME release
19:51 < theoddone> jdub +1
19:51 < Mithrandir> Kamion: to be fair, we've gotten _much_ better wrt number of goals this time around.
19:51 <@Seveas> sabdfl, +1
19:51 <@Kamion> Mithrandir: you might have, mr. early-goals-achiever :-P
19:51 < Xanadu> agree with yaaar - if you go completely out of sync with 6 months enterprise guys can't plan as well  
19:51 < Mithrandir> Kamion: so it could work.
19:51 <@sabdfl> yaaar: we want to be close to Gnome releases again
19:51 <@sabdfl> because its nice that ubuntu is the first and best place to get new gnome goodness
19:51 <@sabdfl> we want to recapture that
19:51 <@pitti> ++
19:51 < sivang> sabdfl++
19:52 < jdub> sabdfl: however - fedora is shipping FC5 final very close to 2.14 release date. we ship our final one month later.
19:52 < xhaker> sabdfl: more developers.. i think that's the need
19:52 < sladen> I was hoping the dapper+1 would be straight back on track.  with Dapper out, the need for a *really* stable release should be catered for I'm expecting/hoping that dapper+1 be a scramble for features and to sync back to GNOME.  It shows that Ubuntu can stick to a predictable release cycle and only makes exceptions when /really/ require.  A delayed Edgy effectively means a year to get back on track (50% of Ubuntu's existance) which is somewhat harder to 
19:52 < ailean> so surely dapper+1 will suffer without the 6 months devel time
19:52 < Lele_ete> I would like to remember that on 20 March Fedora Core 5 will be released....this delay might not shift some user from Ubuntu to fedora ?
19:52 <@Seveas> sabdfl, the way I see it: Dapper is the culmination of 2 years of hard work by a growing number of people. Dapper+1 will start a new cycle which can start 'slowly' ie with less features
19:53 <@Seveas> Lele_ete, completely irrelevant
19:53 <@sabdfl> Kamion: do you think its realistic to reduce features for dapper+1 substantially?
19:53 <@Seveas> dapper was after that already
19:53 < yaaar> so, what's the next major gnome release date?
19:53 <@Seveas> yaaar, tomorrow
19:53 <@sabdfl> just say to guys "pick your top 2, get them approved, and the rest is sync time"?
19:53 <@mdz> Lele_ete: we will continue to make Ubuntu the best distribution we can, and users will decide based on that
19:53 <@Kamion> sabdfl: I don't see why not, if we're careful
19:53 < yaaar> Seveas: oh, i knew that...i mneant the one after that
19:53 < Amaranth> yaaar: 6 months from tomorrow is 2.16
19:53 <@sabdfl> i will be on a very tight leash, promise
19:53 < jdub> *DRAFT* 2.16 release schedule: http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointFifteen
19:53 <@sabdfl> just, maybe, one or two new architectures...
19:54 < xhaker> later
19:54 < Mithrandir> sabdfl: a problem is that we've been saying that dapper is going to be boring, while Edgy Elephant is going to be shiny&bling.
19:54 <@sabdfl> mdz is rolling his eyeballs
19:54 < jdub> sabdfl: please let kamion do awesome fixage on his awesome features. :-)
19:54 < yaaar> jdub: thx
19:54 < Lele_ete> I think the same....mine was a possibility
19:54 <@Seveas> sabdfl, you really need to be restrained...
19:54 < sivang> sabdfl:  should this delay have any effect on integration with launchpad infrastructure? might be good to imrpove this as well if we're at it already.  </thought>
19:54  * jdub quickly puts sivang in a box.
19:54  * Seveas locks the box
19:54 <@sabdfl> sivang:  we will continue to pedal as fast as possible on that front
19:55  * natroll throws out the key
19:55 <@sabdfl> ok, i'm not getting much useful vibe here on dapper+1 :-)
19:55 < yaaar> is dapper going to enable turning on metacity's compositing manager, once the X drivers get texture-from-pixmap?
19:55 <@Seveas> sabdfl, general consensus seems to not delay
19:55  * sabdfl catches the key. sigh
19:55 <@Seveas> lots of vibe in that direction
19:55 < sivang> sabdfl: thanks :)
19:55 <@Seveas> yaaar, -ETOPIC
19:55 < dholbach> yaaar: that's not appropriate here
19:55  * sivang is out of the box again.
19:55 < yaaar> sorry
19:55 < highvoltage> sabdfl: sorry, all out of ideas :(
19:55 <@sabdfl> ok, we'll ask the TB to discuss this separately
19:55 <@sabdfl> next
19:55 < ltibor65> Guys, why this discussion? Let the developers make Dapper better, give them six months, and until the release of Dapper use Ubuntu 5.10 which is very stable and good. With it can one make all things.
19:56 < Xanadu> beyond Gnome for a sec - what's the Ubuntu release cycle in relationship to Kubuntu?
19:56 < Amaranth> that meeting is an hour from now, right?
19:56 <@mdz> not at the meeting tonight, though, unfortunately (sabdfl and I will be unavailable)
19:56 <@Kamion> Xanadu: identical
19:56 < jdub> i'd just like to quickly point out that GNOME did exactly this when it slipped badly a while back
19:56 < JaneW> mdz: will TB have a quorum then though?
19:56 <@Seveas> please - offtopic banning is now really in effect
19:56 < JanC> Seveas: you mean not delay dapper+1  ?
19:56 <@sabdfl> jdub: did what?
19:56 < barsanuphe> xanadu++
19:56 <@mdz> JaneW: if both Keybuk and mjg59 attend, yes
19:56 < JaneW> mdz: ok, thanks
19:57 < jdub> sabdfl: sucked up the shorter schedule damage and got back on track. having a shorter schedule is a good punishment. :-)
19:57 < natroll> sabdfl, something has to give, the delay will make the dapper release more stable and featured, but will make it so we have to turn down the feature-set on dapper+1, which isn't what dapper+1 was supposed to be.  maybe we have to abandon the complete 'shiny&bling' mantra
19:57 < Xanadu> s/Kubuntu/KDE
19:57 < natroll> maybe somewhat-shiny&kinda-blingy
19:58 < Amaranth> Xanadu: KDE has no steady release cycle, we pull in what ever is available at the time
19:58 <@sabdfl> ok, TB will discuss, we can take this up later
19:58 < jdub> natroll: there's a lot of bling waiting in the wings.
19:58 <@sabdfl> ok
19:58 < Riddell> Xanadu: Tonio_ already mentioned, kde (minor) release is after current beta plan, so a delay would help make sure kde 3.5.2 was in and stable
19:58 <@sabdfl> time for TB / CC commentary
19:58 < pinkisntwell> an ksekiniso na kano translate apo rosetta se breezy de tha metaferthoun kai ston dapper etsi ki allios?
19:58 <@sabdfl> TB?
19:58 < natroll> jdub, if it can't be completed within the schedule we want to keep, realistically, then there isn't much choice
19:58 <@sabdfl> pinkisntwell: can you google translate that and paste it here please?
19:59 < Riddell> Amaranth: we use whatever fits best
19:59 < Xanadu> any idea on KDE4 maybe making it into dapper+1? might affect d+1's release schedule
19:59 < Riddell> Xanadu: not going to happen
19:59 <@Seveas> sabdfl, pinkisntwell speaks english quite well - it's not at all far-fetched to assume trolling
19:59 <@sabdfl> Xanadu: please, focus on the topic
19:59 < mako> CC commentary?
19:59 <@sabdfl> mako: go for it
19:59 < mako> oh, you want me to comment
19:59 < aboe> dapper+1 shouldn't be delayed, XGL already in multi/universe, Beagle, so what will be new features???
20:00 <@mdz> sabdfl: I think we're the only TB members here and we've both spoken on this already
20:00 < mako> i wasn't sure who was supposed to be comment
20:00 < mako> or be commented to
20:00 <@sabdfl> aboe: i'm asking for TB and CC folks to weigh in
20:00 <@sabdfl> mako: go ahead (and hi!)
20:01 < libervisco> TB = TechBoard, CC = Community Council
20:01 < mako> i think i have a little conflict of interest because i'm working on the official book.. and it would be nice to have them come out around the same time :)
20:01 <@Seveas> mako, as I understood, the book deadline slides along with Dapper
20:01 <@sabdfl> mako: and on the same media :-)
20:02 < Lele_ete> If during the delay you update frequently the 5.10 release....the delay will be more sweet....:-)
20:02 < mako> right, but the books could be printed and such
20:02 <@Kamion> I'm worried about the repeated invocations of Parkinson's Law we're seeing ("work expands to fill the time available for its completion"), and I'm not sure if we're going to manage to keep a lid on that without locking down the archive (which is not practical for a six-week duration)
20:02 <@Kamion> I'm somewhat mollified if we bring dapper+1 back onto schedule, though; that will reduce negative PR impact a lot
20:02 <@Kamion> especially if we announce it along with announcing a delay
20:02  * mako nods to Kamion 
20:02 < ailean> agreed
20:03 <@sabdfl> Kamion: so you're in favour of dapper+1 being in October, as originally planned?
20:03 <@Kamion> sabdfl: yeah
20:03 <@sabdfl> i think with the benefit of hindsight i would have proposed 8 months dapper, 4 months dapper+1 in Montreal
20:03 < sagarab> agree with kamion
20:03 < mako> if folks who are going to have the biggest headaches are alright with a plan to bring dapper+1 back on schedule, i think that's ideal
20:04 <@sabdfl> ok
20:04 <@sabdfl> mako: any non-book comments? upstream impact?
20:04 < elmo> I'm not unhappy about dapper's delay, as I think it could definitely benefit from some more bugfix time, but like kamion, I'd like to see dapper+1 back on schedule
20:04 < ploum> elmo++
20:04 < Aelor> agree
20:04 < mako> sabdfl: i don't see a huge negative impact now that these meeting have been held and opinions voiced have been considered
20:04 <@Kamion> I'd like to make sure it actually *is* bug-fix time - maybe explicitly allocate some developers to trawling malone for fixes
20:04 < ploum> if not, I'm afraid to see a time translation
20:04 <@sabdfl> ok
20:04 < mako> i'm less concerned with what the decision is than how it is made
20:05 < mako> and i think this is the right way to make it
20:05 < hunger> ssshs
20:05 <@sabdfl> ok
20:05 <@Kamion> I mean more widely that people's individual package maintenance
20:05  * ploum wishes he could, one day, says something as insightful as mako did
20:06 <@sabdfl> ok, can we ask TB to discuss the full ramifications of a delay (what happens to beta, preview, freeze exceptions, art, ui, doc freezes)
20:06 <@sabdfl> also, further discussion on dapper+1
20:06 < hub> elmo++
20:06 <@sabdfl> my vote is for dapper+1 to catch up hard
20:07 < ailean> when will a decision be made?
20:07 <@sabdfl> with the proviso that we consider the sync time and not kill everybody
20:07 < libervisco> suggestions: preview in time, final dapper in 6 weeks, dapper+1 four months later (in time)
20:07 <@sabdfl> if we have to take two releases to catchup, that's better than finishing folks off
20:07 <@sabdfl> libervisco: join the TB meeting
20:07  * mako nods sabdfl definitely
20:07 < libervisco> sabdfl, where?
20:08 <@Seveas> libervisco, here - in an hour
20:08 <@mdz> libervisco: here
20:08 < libervisco> hm I'm actually not really involved with Ubuntu, just observing :)
20:08 < libervisco> but ok :)
20:08 < Amaranth> You'd have to know the main goals for dapper+1 before knowing if chopping 6 weeks off it's schedule will kill someone. But if these goals haven't been set yet (except in broad terms) then there should be no problem, people will just have to take that into consideration when setting goals.
20:08 < sagarab> votes for 6 week delay with dapper with d+1 bang on schedule
20:08 < GFDL> what does TB mean? (sorry for the stupid question :()
20:09 < natroll> TechBoard
20:09 < GFDL> oh! thanks natroll
20:09 < natroll> np :D
20:09 < ailean> i'd vote for that too - if votes are being counted . . .
20:09 <@sabdfl> ok
20:09 <@sabdfl> thank you everybody for coming along
20:09 <@Kamion> Amaranth: we've yet to decide the goals, and can take schedule changes into account
20:09 <@sabdfl> seveas, can i ask you to summarise?
20:09 < natroll> sabdfl, our pleasure :D
20:09 <@ogra> if we really want to do that i'd vote for rather 4 weeks delay of dapper
20:09 <@Seveas> sabdfl, I'll add it to the existing summary 
20:10 < roshan_> Instead of catching up, why not track Gnome 2.x.2 instead of the .0 release, since they are more stable?
20:10 <@sabdfl> after the TB has dedicated some time to this, we'll have a meeting with TB and CC to take a final view on the roadmap
20:10 <@mdz> roshan_: we track .1 currently
20:10 <@Seveas> sabdfl, thanks for anwering all questions/responding to all comments
20:10 <@sabdfl> NOW please send animal name suggestions for E to seveas' wiki page
20:10 <@ogra> haha
20:10 <@Seveas> http://wiki.kaarsemaker.net/UbuntuNames
20:10 < Amaranth> So I take it this extension is going to seriously overlap with debconf?
20:10  * sivang wonders when/how Edgy was coined.
20:10 < jordi> roshan: .2 doesn't add much more to .1, generally
20:10 <@Seveas> PLEASE RESPECT THE EDITLOCK!
20:11 < ompaul> we did we are in trouble  Evangelising Elk
20:11 <@sabdfl> sivang: not coined. minted. now shush :-)
20:11 <@Kamion> Amaranth: http://debconf6.debconf.org/
20:11 <@sabdfl> thank you all
20:11 <@sabdfl> good night and... good luck :-)
20:11 <@mdz> good night, all
20:11 < mako> is there's a very-soon meeting i should be at, someone please send me an SMS
20:11 < alex-weej> am i too late for the biscuits?
20:11 <@ogra> ciao sabdfl/mdz
20:11 < Tonio_> sabdfl: pleasure !
20:11 <@sabdfl> mako: it's TB
20:11 <@Seveas> mako, CC next week (time to be decided)
20:11 < sagarab> thks all and good night
20:11 < dippie> I wanted to comment and edited my comment but the discussion was so fast and didn't want to interrupt anyone
20:11 < libervisco> night sabdfl, mdz 
20:11 <@sabdfl> but if you can i need someone to stand in for me
20:11 <@sabdfl> happy for you to
20:11 < dippie> can I still paste now?
20:12 < mako> ok, great
20:12 <@Seveas> oh Kamion elmo  mako sabdfl since you're all here: decide on a time please ;)
20:12 < IceBreak> when is the 2nd meeting?
20:12 <@Seveas> dippie, meeting is over, feel free to paste in my PM
20:12 < Jergar> I vote for drunken Guinea Pig :-)
20:12 <@Seveas> IceBreak, this was the second
20:12 < IceBreak> in how many hours ?
20:12 < dippie> ok
20:12 <@sabdfl> Seveas: we have to run, we are late
20:12 < Tonio_> IceBreak: 45 minutes
20:12 < IceBreak> oh really ? blah :(
20:12 < Amaranth> Kamion: So for the last two weeks of the extended period most of you will be at debconf?
20:12 <@Kamion> Amaranth: sort of the middle two weeks
20:12 <@sabdfl> Seveas: thanks very much for keeping us on track
20:12 <@sabdfl> night
20:12 -!- sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has left #ubuntu-meeting []