DocTeam-2006-11-24
10:10 mdke_ evening 10:10 robotgeek hello, doccers :) 10:10 mdke_ who else is around? 10:11 robotgeek hmm, LaserJock said he will will back soonish. running an errand or so === nixternal is here === tonyyarusso is here 10:11 mdke_ we need an agenda === mdke goes and hunts for all the doc-specs 10:12 nixternal https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide 10:12 nixternal there is the KDG 10:13 Riddell ooh, docs meeting? 10:13 nixternal yes sir 10:13 Riddell put me down for pimping bzr on the agenda 10:14 Burgwork one of the bzr devs just showed me an online pqm tools 10:14 mdke go ahead and add things to the agenda 10:14 Burgwork however, I think we should be looking into everything on moin, personally === terrex [n=terrex@84-122-63-17.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:14 Riddell mdke: how can I add stuff if we don't have one? 10:15 mdke Riddell: well, you edit the page, and type something in 10:15 Riddell mm hmm, which page? 10:15 mdke wiki:DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda 10:18 tonyyarusso I only have 40 minutes of lappy battery, so hopefully this is quick 10:19 mdke shall we get cracking? 10:19 Burgwork sounds good 10:19 robotgeek +1 10:19 mdke agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda 10:19 mdke refresh it if you haven't in the last few seconds === MrNoFun [n=jon@stjhnf0111w-142162140177.dhcp-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:19 mdke let's discuss briefly the specifications we have for feisty so far 10:20 mdke the most significant one is TopicBasedHelp. Have people had a chance to read it since the updates the other day? 10:20 tonyyarusso I haven't - URL? 10:20 Burgwork sort of 10:20 mdke tonyyarusso: wiki:TopicBasedHelp 10:20 nixternal i briefed it yes 10:21 mdke what do people think? 10:21 tonyyarusso I like the concept of having short answers available, but I don't want it to be to the exclusion of manual-style docs. 10:22 tonyyarusso I think we should have both ways to look up quick answers, and something that caters to the "I'm going to sit down and learn this over the weekend" crowd 10:22 robotgeek i dont mind it at all if it helps searching for docs 10:22 mdke the idea isn't to exclude anything, just to split up the existing sections presentationally 10:22 Burgwork sure, can we make each page a moin page? 10:22 tonyyarusso If they can share content, great, but that's a technical issue and I don't know how they work internally === PenguinistaKC [n=mcopple@CPE-65-28-1-156.kc.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:22 robotgeek i feel that our doc style kinda tends towards that, anyways 10:22 nixternal Burgwork: that is a good idea actually 10:23 tonyyarusso mdke: I don't want to split them entirely though - I actually like the way they are now 10:23 nixternal go from moin2xml 10:24 Burgwork mdke: thoughts on that? 10:24 robotgeek nixternal: does that work reliably now? 10:24 Burgwork is moin2xml mature enough? 10:24 nixternal from what i can tell, it is breaking up our current sections, and adding a top level faq section that im guessing will link to the topic headins 10:25 nixternal Burgwork: actually, no it isn't...any of the wiki2xml's scripts are not good 10:25 nixternal although, copy and paste isn't all that difficult ;) === LaserJock waves hello === nixternal waves back 10:27 tonyyarusso In short, it sounds like a good goal at least from the user perspective; dunno how specifically to get there 10:27 robotgeek yeah, i am not sure if any kubuntu doc team member has started talking upstream about it. (i havent) 10:27 nixternal thats what we have to work out, as it will cause us to utilize a different layout than what we currently use..however it shouldn't be all that difficult 10:27 nixternal robotgeek: i have 10:28 nixternal upstream, ala KDE, want topic-based help as well, but hasn't been really looked into as much 10:28 nixternal i know there is a supposed khelpcenter restructuring plan, but implementation or due date is unk === MrNoFun [n=jon@stjhnf0111w-142162140177.dhcp-dynamic.nl.aliant.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] 10:29 Burgwork we need something for feisty 10:29 Burgwork I think the best way is to do moin2xml 10:29 Burgwork I know Fedora is using it already 10:29 nixternal when is our string freeze btw? 10:30 LaserJock nixternal: check the schedule 10:30 nixternal March 8 10:30 nixternal haha, i was looking dead at the schedule at that === edmund [n=edmund@82-32-98-236.cable.ubr01.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:31 robotgeek i suggest we make a list of things that don't work well with moin2xml, maybe we can get someone to fix it for us? 10:31 LaserJock how are we going to get it into moin in the first place? 10:32 Burgwork manual merging 10:32 Burgwork identify a toc we want to ship and then work on those pieces 10:33 nixternal i did a moin2xml with the release pages we were doing during edgy, and there were a lot of manual fixes that had to be done 10:34 Burgwork lets document all those things 10:34 nixternal i think we can add to the script as well in order to fix some of those issue with tags 10:34 Burgwork is the converter in LP? 10:34 nixternal probably just a bunch of sed/awk 10:34 LaserJock fedora isn't it? 10:35 nixternal i have been using the converter on the moinmoin webpage 10:35 Burgwork yep, but is it uploading to Ubuntu? 10:35 Burgwork ok, shall we assume we are going with moin2xml? 10:35 nixternal either that or copy and paste 10:35 nixternal manual merging..which im thinking will be just as quick 10:36 Burgwork manual merging for the initial docbook --> moin 10:36 nixternal with the moin2xml style has to be very strict...i do know that is a recommendation 10:36 Burgwork we can acls if needed 10:36 LaserJock I do like the idea having people be able to edit a wiki page to contribute 10:36 LaserJock giving edit access on the wiki is much easeir then svn access I think 10:36 Burgwork so if we are going moin, we need the following done: 10:36 Burgwork merge docbook into moin 10:37 Burgwork decide on list of topics to ship 10:37 Burgwork start test convertions to work bugs out of the converter === somerville32 [n=ubuntu@fctnnbsc15w-156034071167.nb.aliant.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:37 LaserJock well, I'm kinda feeling like we are getting ahead of ourselves 10:38 Burgwork how so? === edmund [n=edmund@82-32-98-236.cable.ubr01.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] 10:38 Burgwork we need to make a decision 10:38 LaserJock have we decided what docs and in what forms we want them? 10:38 Burgwork the wiki is getting edits while the docbook is not 10:38 nixternal i know the kubuntu docs spec was approved, however if we are going for a unified layout, that has to change (the kdg spec) 10:39 Burgwork ok 10:40 robotgeek nixternal: what do you mean, unified layout? for udg and kdg? 10:40 Burgwork if we do go with moin, we need to reconsider how we do doc on the wiki 10:40 nixternal thats what the topic-based help spec calls for 10:40 nixternal Kubuntu team members should get the packaging right so that the Kubuntu documents take on the structure decided above. 10:41 nixternal but when it comes to Kubuntu based stuff, there is one man, mr. Riddell :) 10:41 robotgeek heh 10:41 tonyyarusso Does that give us enough direction to move on? === Riddell doesn't use a title 10:42 nixternal heheh 10:42 nixternal The Grand Puba 10:42 robotgeek one sec, so essentially we will be editing stuff on the wiki, and merging it back in? 10:42 nixternal yes robotgeek 10:42 nixternal which means we will need to watch the pages closely 10:42 somerville32 What about Xubuntu stuff? 10:43 robotgeek okay. we will definetly need policies on when and how to convert/sync back etc. 10:43 LaserJock well, we would use ACLs I'm guessing 10:43 nixternal somerville32: i was wondering the same thing, but everything i have seen is ubuntu and kubuntu ;( 10:43 LaserJock maybe a little Edubuntu too ;-) 10:43 tonyyarusso To be discussed with their respective teams more later? 10:43 nixternal ya, dedfinitely Edubuntu 10:43 robotgeek does xubuntu not use gnome's help manager? 10:44 LaserJock ok, but I think we are still going off 10:44 LaserJock robotgeek: I would think not 10:44 nixternal LaserJock: if you use ACLs why not continue using the SVN then? 10:44 nixternal essentially, the SVN has that all taken care of 10:44 LaserJock we can control the ACLs much better 10:44 nixternal with moinmoin? 10:44 LaserJock sure 10:44 nixternal i guess you need a super power to be able to do that 10:44 LaserJock sure 10:44 nixternal hehe 10:44 LaserJock which we have I believe 10:45 LaserJock on the other hand you have to get a Canonical admin to do svn 10:45 nixternal im sure either Burgwork or mdke does 10:46 LaserJock but I'm still thinking we might be getting ahead of ourselves a little bit 10:46 Burgwork the advantage with moin is with ease of editing 10:46 Burgwork nothing to do with access control 10:47 LaserJock well, I think it might be another advantage 10:47 nixternal ya, that is why i said we will have to watch those pages like a hawk 10:47 tonyyarusso (Any chance we can rearrange the order of the Agenda and talk about Open Week next? That's the only other thing on there I'd like to hear about, but I only have 10 minutes of battery left.) 10:47 Burgwork open week is this week 10:47 Burgwork lets talk about that right now 10:47 LaserJock k 10:47 tonyyarusso Awesome === nixternal sits back 10:47 nixternal forgot the "and listens" part 10:47 Burgwork we basically need a todo list, with people to answer 10:47 Burgwork so here is what I propose: 10:48 Burgwork fix up the wikitodo and just get people working on that 10:48 LaserJock where did mdke go? 10:48 Burgwork lets identify high visibility but low quality pages and then work on them === robotgeek will not be able to attend openweek at all, sad 10:48 Burgwork such as our installation guide 10:48 tonyyarusso I'd like to propose that we include some basic wiki howto session, syntax/formatting, how to create pages, etc. for people that would like to start writing/editing docs (both ones discussed above and otherwise), but have never used a wiki before. 10:48 Burgwork yes, that is an excellent idea 10:48 Burgwork I can lead a mediawiki2moin session 10:49 tonyyarusso For those who have experience on wikipedia, etc.? 10:49 Burgwork yes 10:49 tonyyarusso Sounds good 10:49 LaserJock ok, so we have 2 hrs right? 10:50 Burgwork we do? I have not read the OpenWeek thingy 10:50 LaserJock yeah 10:50 Burgwork right 10:50 tonyyarusso Is the /participate page part of our responsibility, or does someone else cover that? If it's us, make sure that lots of possibilities are listed 10:50 Burgwork on the website? 10:50 tonyyarusso yes 10:50 LaserJock 1 hr on wed. and 1 hr on sat. 10:50 Burgwork sort of 10:51 Burgwork both mdke and myself can edit the website 10:51 Burgwork we need to munge in that ContributeToUbuntu and the HelpingUbuntu pages into that one 10:51 tonyyarusso Okay. It's probably good as is, but maybe just make one sweep over it to make sure things are included 10:52 LaserJock ok so we have probably 3 main thing === Fujitsu [n=Fujitsu@ubuntu/member/fujitsu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:52 LaserJock 1) intro to doc team, what we do and how to get involved 10:52 LaserJock 2) wiki docs 10:52 LaserJock 3) shipped docs 10:53 tonyyarusso basically 10:53 Burgwork yep 10:53 Burgwork I think there is enough work with just the wik 10:53 Burgwork wiki 10:54 tonyyarusso Probably send out something to the ml asking for help going over and touching up high visibility wiki pages over the weekend 10:54 robotgeek sure, its a good time to fix docs 10:56 Burgwork yep 10:56 tonyyarusso Is that all we have on that then? 10:57 robotgeek looks like :) 10:57 LaserJock well, mdke needs to know what's going on, we should have a ML thread on it 10:57 robotgeek sure, i am maintaining minutes :) 10:57 tonyyarusso Yeah 10:57 tonyyarusso good move robotgeek 10:58 somerville32 Can I add an item to the agenda? haha 10:58 robotgeek somerville32: sure, we can discuess it at the end, i guess 10:58 somerville32 Perfect. === dsas [n=dean@cpc2-stok6-0-0-cust395.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:58 robotgeek Riddell: guess you are up 10:59 tonyyarusso And I'm out. Have a good rest of the meeting folks. 10:59 robotgeek tonyyarusso: later 11:01 Riddell mm? 11:01 robotgeek Riddell: pimping bzr :) 11:01 Riddell oh well, it's dead cool 11:01 Riddell but might be redundant if the whole thing is moving to moin 11:02 Riddell however, incase it's not, bzr is much more flexible than svn 11:02 LaserJock but it's also messier for a project this size 11:02 Riddell you won't have to rely on sysadmins for access control, and those without access can easily branch and have changed merged in 11:02 Riddell how so? 11:03 LaserJock having one repo 11:03 LaserJock simple 11:03 LaserJock fast 11:03 Riddell bzr is only 1 repo 11:03 Riddell not sure what you mean 11:04 LaserJock well, I'm imagining you'd need 1 branch for each doc 11:04 LaserJock or something similar 11:04 Riddell it's also simpler than svn in parts, and not more complex anywhere 11:04 Riddell you wouldn't 11:04 Riddell however it's not as fast, you're right there 11:04 Riddell but that's being worked on 11:04 robotgeek we don't really branch too much, only on releases. 11:04 Riddell exactly 11:04 LaserJock it's unpractical for people to carry around 200MB repos 11:04 Riddell that wouldn't change 11:04 LaserJock robotgeek: that's not what I mean 11:04 Riddell then you can do a checkout --lightweight === robotgeek waits, since he has never used bzr 11:05 LaserJock I think that is still lightweight 11:05 lifeless hi guys 11:05 lifeless can I help 11:05 LaserJock I mean, I'm all for bzr 11:05 LaserJock but I've already tried 11:06 LaserJock and it's slow and difficult for people to use in this instance 11:06 Riddell lifeless: I'm trying to presuade them to move from svn to bzr, now that svn imports are working for their svn archive on launchpad 11:06 lifeless Riddell++ 11:06 Riddell LaserJock: what's difficult about it? 11:06 LaserJock well, people have a hard time figuring out where to put things 11:06 LaserJock and what the workflow is 11:07 Riddell LaserJock: maybe you havn't tried it in a while, you can do a bzr checkout now, you don't have to branch unless you actually want to 11:07 lifeless LaserJock: can you be more precise. Perhaps an example ? 11:07 Riddell it's exactfly the same workflow as svn === dsas [n=dean@cpc2-stok6-0-0-cust395.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:07 lifeless LaserJock: i.e. 'when I wanted to add fnor.svg, I did not know what to do' 11:08 Riddell but if you want to branch, if you're doing something experimental or you don't have commit rights, then it's far easier to do so 11:08 LaserJock ok, well there's 2 things 11:08 Riddell try it now! bzr checkout sftp://<lpuser>@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox 11:08 lifeless LaserJock: go on 11:08 LaserJock if we do it in "svn-like" mode then there is not much of a distinct advantage for us 11:09 Riddell I've pointed out two major advantages 11:09 LaserJock perhaps 11:09 lifeless LaserJock: you said there are two problems where its harder 11:10 lifeless LaserJock: I'd love it if you could enlarge on that 11:10 LaserJock well, speed is always an issue === mc44 [n=mc44@ip-81-170-101-247.cust.homechoice.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:10 LaserJock granted it's getting better 11:11 LaserJock the other thing was access 11:11 lifeless 'access' ? 11:11 LaserJock which hopefully LP will improve 11:11 Riddell anyone in the ubuntu-doc team can commit to that sandbox archive (go ahead and try!) 11:11 LaserJock heh 11:11 lifeless LaserJock: what do you mean 'access' ? 11:11 LaserJock bzr on LP is not exactly user friendly 11:12 Riddell it's a damn site better than svn controlled by a sysadmin 11:12 LaserJock lifeless: both who gets to commit and what to do with people who can't commit 11:12 lifeless Riddell: chill out man, lets work through this :) 11:12 LaserJock yeah, I mean I'm with you guys 11:12 LaserJock I love bzr 11:12 lifeless LaserJock: I'm not clear what you mean. Give me an example please. 11:13 LaserJock ok, so how is a non-docteam member supposed to use bzr? 11:13 lifeless LaserJock: i.e. 'the doc-team leaders cannot control who can commit to the branch' 11:13 lifeless LaserJock: bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox 11:13 LaserJock ok, then what do they do with it? 11:13 robotgeek Riddell: i get ERROR: Not a branch blah === poningru [n=poningru@pool-71-243-246-253.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:13 lifeless LaserJock: you tell me, give me a use case, I'll give you the bzr commands. 11:14 somerville32 bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: /home/ubuntu/sftp:/cody-somerville@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox/ 11:14 robotgeek nvm 11:14 lifeless somerville32: install python-paramiko 11:14 lifeless somerville32: or add '/'after the ':' 11:14 robotgeek lifeless: your command works, ridell's does not 11:14 robotgeek i see what you mean by it's slow :) 11:14 lifeless robotgeek: you need to put your lp username in riddells command, or be in the ubuntu-doc team 11:15 lifeless robotgeek: you're probably not in the ubuntu-doc team. 11:15 robotgeek lifeless: no, i am. 11:15 LaserJock lifeless: Joe wants to contribute to the docs, so he grabs the LP branch but doesn't know what to do with it afterwords 11:15 lifeless LaserJock: cmon, what does he do with svn today ? 11:15 lifeless LaserJock: I'll be he makes some changes, runs svn diff and posts the diff right ? 11:15 LaserJock he sends a patch to the doc team mailing list 11:16 lifeless LaserJock: so with bzr, he can do *exactly that* today. Nothing new to learn. 11:16 robotgeek does bzr help in "automating" that process? 11:16 LaserJock lifeless: so nothing to gain with bzr 11:16 lifeless LaserJock: but he can also start doing more capable things. like: 11:17 lifeless making a new branch, which (s)he can now commit to. Then the diff is generate by doing 'bzr bundle', and thats a human readable diff with extra data so that you can see their commits, and track renames etc 11:17 lifeless also it handles binary file changes like images 11:18 somerville32 I got more errors 11:18 lifeless LaserJock: so going back to your point, could I reasonably paraphrase it as 'we have no workflow figured out for this new tool' ? 11:18 LaserJock lifeless: more like "we don't want to change workflow as it works ok now" but yeah 11:18 robotgeek lifeless: yes, essentially that 11:18 lifeless so my point here is two fold. 11:18 LaserJock we can certainly try again 11:19 LaserJock I've already tried once 11:19 lifeless a) bzr does not require you to change your workflow. 11:19 nixternal with bzr however, you flow with the rest of the community as well. most of the other communities utilize bzr...i personally am all for bzr due to that aspect, plus we don't have to rely on others for access control, speed is getting better, and if we have an issue we can go directly the source w/o issue 11:19 lifeless b) bzr *allows* you to change your workflow as you gain comfort 11:19 Riddell it doesn't work for me, I lost my svn access and I don't know where to find it 11:19 robotgeek damn thing is stuck in "phase 0/4" 11:20 nixternal robotgeek: sit there, you are grabbing a lot ;) 11:20 somerville32 Why don't we have a vote or something? haha 11:20 robotgeek so, okay. i will put it down as "try it again, and come back to it again" 11:20 nixternal the initial checkouts with bzr are rediculous, i will give yout hat 11:20 lifeless robotgeek: its a large initial pull. Once thats pulled all operations will be local, and much faster 11:20 lifeless so I'd like to suggest something 11:20 LaserJock well, like I said, we can try it again now that it's on LP 11:20 nixternal if you did a bzr branch, you will have to commit locally and then push your changes as well 11:20 lifeless Riddell here knows bzr, and knows your processes. 11:20 nixternal if you do a --lightweight, then you use it just like svn 11:21 lifeless nixternal: --lightweight over the internet == extremely slow. 11:21 nixternal not on mine it isn't 11:21 LaserJock but really the only problem we've had with svn is access and we were promised that that wouldn't be a problem anymore 11:21 lifeless nixternal: I cant recommend that until we deploy the hpss server on launchpad sometime in the new year. 11:21 nixternal then again, i tend to grab the latest from bzr 11:21 lifeless anyway 11:22 LaserJock but so far when I've tried bzr for the doc repo it's been slow and somewhat buggy 11:22 lifeless I want to suggest that rather than deciding right now, you all commit to trying bzr, and rather than saying 'too hard' if theres some friction and learning curve, talk with riddel, or any of the folk on #bzr about it 11:22 LaserJock sure 11:22 robotgeek ++ === nixternal loves bzr 11:22 lifeless LaserJock: have you filed bugs on https://launchpad.net/products/bzr ? 11:23 LaserJock lifeless: nope, the are usually reported before I ever find them 11:23 robotgeek can we move to next point on agenda? === j_ack [n=rudi@p508D910F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:23 lifeless LaserJock: well please highlight those to me, j-a-meinel or poolie === Keyseir [n=Keyseir@166-82-208-32.quickclick.ctc.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Keyseir_ [n=Keyseir@166-82-208-32.quickclick.ctc.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:23 robotgeek https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide 11:23 LaserJock yeah, we need to move on 11:23 lifeless LaserJock: supporting ubuntu is quite high on our priority list. 11:23 lifeless tchau, thanks for the time. 11:24 robotgeek thanks lifeless 11:24 nixternal thanks lifeless 11:24 somerville32 thanks :] 11:24 nixternal so, are we going forward with topic-based help? 11:25 robotgeek hmm, all i am worried about is upstream. 11:25 robotgeek i really dont want to do all the work of splitting it up, and then not having a tool to view it 11:25 LaserJock ok, hang on. did we get to what docs we are doing yet? 11:25 nixternal same here 11:25 robotgeek LaserJock: i guess not :) 11:26 nixternal LaserJock: which docs for TBH? 11:26 nixternal i am guessing the desktop guides at least for right now 11:27 LaserJock well, are we including any new docs? 11:27 nixternal i know that we are changing the way the About Kubuntu and the Kubuntu Release Notes with 7.04 === mc44 [n=mc44@ip-81-170-101-247.cust.homechoice.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:28 nixternal LaserJock: i think working the desktop guides into a TBH system should be the first goal, to try it out 11:28 nixternal instead of trying multiple docs and it ends up failing miserably 11:28 robotgeek ++ 11:28 LaserJock heh, what I'm saying is, are we planning on including any additional docs in Feisty? 11:29 robotgeek i was wondering about the "Switching from windows" thing too 11:29 nixternal then again...there needs to be a common program to read the TBH docs in order to conform to any uniformity 11:29 LaserJock another thing is media 11:30 LaserJock do we want to keep shipping the docs we have been, what about lulu and HTML 11:30 robotgeek LaserJock: do we know if any people bought from lulu? 11:30 LaserJock I know of people 11:30 nixternal i personally enjoy lulu, as i have purchased my printed docs through them in the past..but if im the only one ;p 11:30 robotgeek html ++, pdf is atrocious (atleast on my machine) 11:31 nixternal pdf is atrocius w/o a doubt, but good for those doze users who might be interested 11:31 LaserJock good for any users, IMO 11:32 LaserJock Burgwork: you still with us? === Riddell goes on holiday, bye all 11:32 Burgwork LaserJock: sort of 11:32 LaserJock cya Riddell 11:32 nixternal bye Riddell 11:32 nixternal Riddell: i have the smb4k updates as well 11:32 nixternal i will get the packaged and put on revu asap 11:33 robotgeek lulu is definetly a lot of work, so if there were not a lot of people using lulu, we can still discuss 11:33 robotgeek Riddell: enjoy 11:33 nixternal probably need to do an edgy package and possibly dapper to fix this problem as wel 11:33 nixternal l 11:33 nixternal can we get in touch with lulu and see if it is really worth it? 11:33 robotgeek i think from memory, mdke and madpilot did a lot of work. (sorry if i missed any others) 11:34 LaserJock ok, I wanted to throw out an example of a doc that I liked http://maemo.org/platform/docs/pymaemo/python_maemo_howto.html 11:34 nixternal the pdf's on the help server can be printed as well...if a person can't print, take the pdf to your local print shop and for less than 5 they will hook you up 11:34 LaserJock nixternal: mdke should have the stats 11:34 LaserJock nixternal: he "owns" our lulu account 11:36 robotgeek so, we stick with html, pdf and will get stats from mdke and decide a bit later? 11:36 LaserJock that's fine 11:36 nixternal LaserJock: i like the layout there as well...you have the single page, and then have the pdf/print options up top 11:37 LaserJock what I'm more interested in is perhaps we should have HTML/PDF only docs 11:37 nixternal we do don't we? or is there more? 11:38 LaserJock well, the styleguide is the only thing I can think of that we don't ship 11:38 nixternal ahh, ok 11:38 robotgeek LaserJock: you mean only one of the either? 11:39 robotgeek by ship, we mean with ubuntu cd ? 11:39 LaserJock yes 11:39 nixternal we do ship to much 11:39 somerville32 I think more content and less different formats, haha 11:39 nixternal don't know why i have the server guide on my machie default 11:40 robotgeek html, we should ship by default. maybe a link to pdf to download from the net? 11:40 somerville32 Like, there is no documentation on how to configure pppoe connection (ie. ADSL) === somerville32 nods. 11:40 LaserJock robotgeek: not what media to ship, what docs to ship 11:40 nixternal robotgeek: we have to consider those w/o internet though as well 11:40 LaserJock right === jenda [n=jenda@ubuntu/member/jenda] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:41 robotgeek oh okay, sorry 11:41 LaserJock the server guide is also best as a CLI resource 11:41 nixternal man serverguide ;) 11:41 nixternal or 11:41 nixternal info serverguide 11:41 LaserJock or perhaps lynx serverguide === cbx33 [n=pete@ubuntu/member/cbx33] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:41 nixternal info would be better as we can do linking 11:41 robotgeek do we ship packaging guide with default ubuntu? 11:41 LaserJock yes 11:41 LaserJock ubuntu and kubuntu 11:42 robotgeek maybe that is not necessary, because we dont ship a compiler by defaul anyways? 11:42 LaserJock you don't have to have a compiler, but you do need other tools 11:42 robotgeek true. all that you have to install anyways, maybe we mention where to download or install packaging guide in both desktop guides? 11:42 somerville32 Personally, I enjoyed reading the packaging guide when my internet was broken, haha 11:43 LaserJock what I'm trying to get at here is, what do we want the users to see? 11:43 robotgeek personally, i would just have the desktop guide, and that's about it. 11:43 LaserJock and how do we get it to them 11:43 nixternal ditto 11:43 somerville32 Well, I think how-to configure the net is very very important 11:43 somerville32 And it is lacking right now 11:44 somerville32 Once people get on the internet, there is a ton of resources available to them. 11:44 nixternal and that will get implemented eventually 11:44 LaserJock here's the other thing, are people really using the shipped docs? === raphink [n=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:44 nixternal LaserJock: we need to figure out what is up with the TBH. people push it, and thats it so far..what all needs to be done on our end? we need to figure out if we are redesigning, or staying the course ;p 11:45 LaserJock I don't really see any big thing with TBH 11:45 robotgeek i doubt it, from the questions i get on irc. i swear, we need a Help icon on the desktop! 11:45 LaserJock we got a help icon on the panel with Edgy 11:45 nixternal LaserJock: with the shipped docs, i hear about a 50/50 prospective on that...people like us who have been using the system long enough don't, but our switchers or newbs do 11:45 LaserJock I believe 11:45 nixternal and Caroline Ford obviously ;) 11:45 LaserJock heh === j_ack_ [n=rudi@p508D973B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:46 robotgeek who is Caroline Ford? /me missed the joke! 11:46 LaserJock is it better to give people the essentials they need to get a functioning computer 11:46 nixternal robotgeek: she is the best ghost proofreader the docteam has 11:46 LaserJock and then do the rest online 11:47 nixternal LaserJock: i say yes to that, BUT..what about those w/o the internet? do we remain considerate, or do we go logical 11:47 robotgeek nixternal: as far as Kubuntu is concerned, i think we want to talk upstream to see if it is feasible to implement topic based help, if it is: we move to TBH, else: we stay current 11:47 nixternal logical is providing the new user with everything they need to get up and running 11:47 LaserJock robotgeek: why can't you do it now? 11:48 nixternal robotgeek: as of right now, it is feasible, but who is going to do the work? 11:48 nixternal i don't think KHelpCenter is solid enough 11:48 robotgeek i meant implementing it in time for Feisty. 11:48 nixternal never honestly 11:48 nixternal nobody has anything good to push on it..all i have continued to see is talk, no action yet 11:48 nixternal unless something is going on behind the scenes that i don't know of 11:49 LaserJock ok, but I really don't understand the problem here 11:49 LaserJock the proposal is to kinda restructure the Desktop Guide so that it is more topical 11:49 LaserJock and on the frontpage show that more 11:49 nixternal LaserJock: the problem would be do we continue utilizing the docbook the way we always have, or do we take a risk with a new way of doing it so it can work with the topic based help 11:49 robotgeek LaserJock: the problem is, we can create the TBH docs, but if it can't be viewed in the help center, its kinda useless. === JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:50 LaserJock I really don't get the problem, perhaps I'm dense 11:51 nixternal or maybe i am ;) 11:51 nixternal im going with the latter 11:51 robotgeek okay, now i am confused :) 11:51 nixternal lol 11:51 LaserJock well, so we have the desktop guides 11:52 LaserJock that are written in more of a traditional, book-like fashion 11:53 LaserJock so we want to restructure it into more bite-sized topical chunks === ryanakca [i=ryan@unaffiliated/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:53 LaserJock that's doable 11:54 robotgeek so if i get it straight, the tools to view the docs will not change? (no search,etc) 11:54 LaserJock so the only problem I see is how do we make a frontpage for people 11:54 nixternal i think graphically enticing and to the point 11:55 nixternal are you here for help? do you want to learn more about the operating system? history lesson? etc, etc, etc... 11:55 LaserJock so perhaps we will need general category pages 11:55 somerville32 I don't think history is important 11:55 somerville32 Well, it is 11:55 somerville32 but not important enough to ship 11:55 nixternal i just used it for filler === somerville32 nods. 11:56 nixternal well, it has been important to ship since day one though, about ubuntu is a history lesson 11:56 nixternal although, those are getting merged into ubiquity 11:56 nixternal so when you install you can read all of that now 11:56 robotgeek i dont really see an issue with moving the KDG to topic based help, if the end user can view the docs. i guess i had misunderstood 11:56 nixternal same here robotgeek 11:58 LaserJock so the only real issue is how to get a khelpcenter front page that works well with our more TBH docs 11:58 robotgeek on the issue of which docs to ship, is the general consensus to ship only desktop guides (we can ask for input on ml too) 11:58 LaserJock not necessarily 11:58 LaserJock it looks like the server guide will be included in the Topic Based Helpl 11:58 nixternal LaserJock: so the front page will be a seperate doc/entity? 11:58 nixternal that will then link to the kdg? 11:59 nixternal or into the chunks 11:59 LaserJock the chunks 11:59 LaserJock or something like that 11:59 LaserJock that's what the Kubuntu guys get to figure out :-) 11:59 nixternal why not the ubuntu guys? 11:59 LaserJock cause they will be doing the same thing with yelp 12:00 somerville32 What about Xubuntu? 12:00 nixternal kubuntu guys got it made, we read html, no xml parsing here ;) 12:00 robotgeek nixternal: heh 12:00 nixternal somerville32: that is up to the xubuntu team to decide 12:00 nixternal although... 12:00 nixternal they should be in with all of this as well..there is way to much seperation 12:00 LaserJock hehe, my bzr is still trying to branch the docs === somerville32 nods. 12:00 nixternal and every project has something different 12:00 robotgeek LaserJock: i cancelled mine 12:01 somerville32 I was told that the main doc group encompassed xubuntu as well 12:01 LaserJock well, who does Xubuntu docs? 12:01 somerville32 No one really 12:01 nixternal one person that i have seen 12:01 somerville32 John Levin apparently a contact 12:01 somerville32 But he told me differently 12:01 LaserJock well, I don't know what they use to view the help 12:01 LaserJock but it'd be nice if we were all consistent === somerville32 nods. 12:02 nixternal not only consistant, but present === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 12:02 LaserJock nixternal: it looks to me like khelpcenter would need some kind of wrapper doc 12:02 nixternal jeesh 12:03 nixternal LaserJock: it wouldn't be any different that yelps, just that we build ours out to html 12:03 LaserJock well, it's tough to build a doc community 12:03 nixternal and just as tough to get them all together for a meeting as well 12:03 LaserJock nixternal: I"m not sure, I get the impression that yelp is pretty beastly for the frontpage 12:04 LaserJock usually they have to work with upstream to make changes 12:04 nixternal really 12:04 nixternal i didn't know that 12:04 nixternal so maybe KHelpCenter isn't all that bad then ;) 12:04 LaserJock khelpcenter is just like an index or tree view 12:04 robotgeek khelpcenter opens up a list of docs. we can't change taht, really. we can decide how to present the desktop gudie frontpage 12:04 LaserJock yelp actually has a Frontpage 12:04 nixternal OMG! I just realised I stood someone up tonight..i heard them countdown the lighting of the chicago tree on tv...oh well ;) 12:05 LaserJock robotgeek: more like a Kubuntu frontpage 12:05 nixternal oh..ok, i know what you are saying now 12:05 nixternal that is easy to do 12:05 robotgeek LaserJock: maybe we can get khelpcenter to open up a different page, lol 12:05 nixternal we can hide the documentation from the list for just a single front page 12:06 nixternal oooh...ya, i forgot khelpcenter shows all of the kde docs 12:06 robotgeek okay, that works for us kubuntu guys, i think. 12:06 nixternal and we don't want to hide those..those are very important 12:06 nixternal but when khelp center opens..i got it now 12:06 nixternal robotgeek: we have a buttload of work possibly ahead of us... === dsas_ [n=dean@cpc2-stok6-0-0-cust395.bagu.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 12:06 robotgeek nixternal: heh, yeah. 12:07 LaserJock the least difficult thing, I think, would be to create a wrapper doc 12:07 LaserJock and only link to that in khelpcenter 12:07 nixternal we can work on the docs now, and then when Riddell gets back from holliday we can speak with him about changing how khelpcenter opens 12:07 nixternal that will upset upstream i am sure 12:07 robotgeek sounds like a plan 12:07 LaserJock no, it wouldn't touch upstream 12:07 LaserJock only Kubuntu 12:07 nixternal they already get upset when we funktify default settings 12:08 nixternal ya LaserJock, and kubuntu continues to stray away from kde principles that way though 12:08 LaserJock all I'm saying is only have 1 doc for Kubuntu docs 12:08 nixternal unless, it is as easy as a khelpcenterrc file 12:08 LaserJock it's as easy as the .desktop we ship 12:08 nixternal LaserJock: thats all there is going to be from us..About and Release are part of ubiquity now 12:08 LaserJock argg 12:09 nixternal well, the .desktop won't change the layout of khelpcenter 12:09 LaserJock you're not quite getting what I'm saying I don't think 12:09 nixternal oooh 12:09 LaserJock kubuntu-doc ships *1* .desktop that opens up *1* doc 12:09 nixternal i got what you are saying..and to do that would be to ditch khelpcenter, or ditch/hide the kde docs 12:09 LaserJock that then provides the links to the TBH 12:10 LaserJock it doesn't touch upstream 12:10 nixternal ok, and then have that doc link to all of the kde docs, or open up khelpcenter..possibly a different help viewer for kubuntu alone 12:11 LaserJock heh 12:11 LaserJock you're making this harder than I'm saying 12:11 nixternal right now, when you click help in kubuntu, khelpcenter pops up with a link to every "topic" which then links to "subtopics" which then link to "handbooks" ;) 12:11 robotgeek is that right, LaserJock ? 12:11 LaserJock ok, so I open khelpcenter 12:11 nixternal what you are saying is have it open to Kubuntu TBH, and that is all the user sees, and then they can access the rest from within this 1 doc 12:12 LaserJock I get a list of the Kubuntu docs 12:12 LaserJock if I click on kubuntu 12:12 nixternal you get more than kubuntu docs in khelpcenter 12:12 LaserJock doesn't matter 12:12 nixternal kubuntu, and every kde doc possible ;) 12:12 LaserJock I'm saying you click on "Kubuntu Documents" 12:12 nixternal but when it opens, that "welcome" screen is what we want? 12:13 LaserJock you get a lists of docs 12:13 nixternal ya 12:13 nixternal just change that? 12:13 LaserJock instead of having all those docs you could have just 1 12:13 nixternal easy 12:13 robotgeek should be possible, we khelpcenter does file arguemnts, i guess ...
MeetingLogs/DocTeam-2006-11-24 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:40:47 by localhost)