DocTeam_2006-02-03
09:58 bustacap Ok, let's start..
=== mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:58 Bonzodog grant
09:58 Bonzodog you here?
09:59 bustacap Who is in attendance from the Ubuntu Forums admin team?
09:59 jdong I am
09:59 Bonzodog me and manicka
09:59 Bonzodog oh sorry
09:59 bustacap ok, excellent
=== michael_Steinber [n=michael@cpe-69-207-191-142.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:59 bustacap Bonzodog, are you a UDSF admin?
09:59 Bonzodog yes, as is manicka
09:59 bustacap yeah..
=== mhz_meeting is Mauricio Hernandez, from Chile LoCo Team
10:00 bustacap the first topic - howtos in the Wiki..
=== mruiz is Miguel Ruiz, from Chile LoCo Team
10:00 bustacap I have proposed on the agenda page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSF/MeetingAgenda -
to bypass creating howtos in the forums and create them straight into the Wiki..
10:01 mhz_meeting bustacap: yes, that's the idea.
10:01 jdong We understand that there are positives to doing so, but the forum team currently
does not support doing so
10:01 bustacap Ubuntu Forums team: are there any proposed ideas to changing the way the howtos
are currently setup?
10:02 jdong first off, unified logins and searches are a must
10:02 jdong they need to seamlessly bridge together
10:02 bustacap yes, that is a good idea..
10:02 bustacap I think there might be a big push to get everybody authenticating off the
Launchpad system..
10:02 mhz currently, every person with LP account can login to wiki
10:02 jdong secondly, all howto's should be accepted; not rejected due to "debian unholiness"
10:02 jdong if we all LP, that'd be great
10:03 jdong but that's not the primary concern
10:03 bustacap what is "debian unholiness"?
10:03 jdong not doing things the Debian way
10:03 bustacap sure..
10:03 jdong such as installing stuff by hand or from source bypassing dpkg
10:03 mhz jdong: the only issue I may see is that Forum users use nicks instead of
NameLastname
10:03 bustacap that's a downside of continuing the howtos in the forums..
10:03 bustacap mhz, that's off topic..
10:04 bustacap the howtos need to be scrutinised by the forums team
10:04 bustacap sure there is a good qa side of that, however, the Wiki documents are scrutinised
by the people that are using them..
10:04 jdong they are fairly scrutinized as far as not allowing anything that blatantly
damages systems
10:05 bustacap KingBahamut gave me the impression that he tested most of the docs that he was
assigned..
10:05 Bonzodog also the how-to's being on the forums allows for live feedback...the how-to's
don't always work exactly the same on everyones system
10:05 jdong KB does indeed put a lot of effort into his project, and I'm not surprised if he
personally tests everything
10:05 jdong Bonzodog: good point; a Wiki->Forum link like what the Fridge has would be
awesome
10:06 Bonzodog we actually use the user feedback as a measure of how good a how-to is
10:06 bustacap Bonzodog, I have proposed to place a "Discuss this page on the Ubuntu Forums"
link on major Wiki pages for starters
10:06 manicka no one is assigned docs as such, they are scrutinized by the whole community
10:06 jdong but bustacap, what is wrong with the doc team picking "good" howto's from our
forums and putting them on the Wiki?
10:06 Bonzodog if it has little feedback, or a lot of criticism, we may hold it from the udsf
bustacap: it is not 'offtopic' for wiki howtos because using a nick like
10:06 mhz 'ZeRo-Cow' would make wiki-linking a chaos (esp. when we talk about wiki
admining) and also would make users have second thoughts on credibility
10:06 bustacap manicka, isn't there an admin process involved before howtos are posted to the
forums..
10:07 bustacap jdong, that is "double handling"
10:07 jdong bustacap: a simple "is this a howto and not a question" check; that's all
10:07 jdong bustacap: you can't call it that when you are going to reject a lot of the
HOWTO's as "unsafe"
10:07 bustacap the Wiki accepts all documents - good and bad - the public fixes them up
10:08 jdong the last issue then is syntax
10:08 earobinson hey
10:08 bustacap sure, I understand there is a need to reject HowTos..
10:08 bustacap syntax with the Wiki?
10:08 earobinson has the meeting started?
10:08 jdong yeah, the differing syntaxes
10:09 jdong i.e. users want to contribute but don't know the Wiki language
10:09 Bonzodog earobinson, yes
10:09 bustacap sure, there is a learning curve involved in the creation of Wikis
10:09 bustacap but it is rather small..
10:09 jdong correct, and that learning curve is an initial barrier in making HOWTO's
10:09 bustacap IMO
10:09 mhz jdong: we can easily use the "tips" at bottom of every editing page
10:10 bustacap jdong, to combat that, we need to make an even better Wiki syntax guide..
10:10 mhz jdong: or we can suggest users to visit wiki:SyntaxReference
=== bustacap puts that on his list of things to bring up at the next docteam meeting..
10:10 jdong mhz, sure, but we've received complaints about the different syntax the last time
we strongly encouraged Wiki howto's
10:10 Bonzodog bustacap: I have had problems today with moinmoin tags.....mediawiki at least
recognises html
10:11 bustacap it is a matter of people getting comfortable with the syntax
10:11 bustacap most howtos are just bullet points and a few headings..
10:11 mhz jdong: oh, yes, so far there are many diff among wikis. However, Moin 1.5
incorporates a WYSIWYG editor so we can all contribute happily
10:11 mhz Bonzodog: yes, Moin only recognizes some html tags
10:11 Bonzodog mhz: there are somethings that moin does not do though
10:12 Bonzodog like I wanted strikeout today
10:12 jdong mhz: a WYSIWYG editor would be great
10:12 bustacap as long as the content gets posted on the Wiki, the creator just has to put in
into CategoryCleanup and then the helpers come along to clean it up..
10:12 mhz yes, i know, and it doesn't do it because they released 1.5 which does it :D
10:12 jdong I just have issues with how the doc team might disregard some forum howto/tips as
frivolous
10:12 jdong http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=100167
10:12 jdong just an example
10:12 bustacap ok, looking..
10:13 jdong these kinds of mini-snippet posts really don't need their own wiki page
10:13 jdong more of an "oh cool, that's sweet" discussion than anything else
10:13 mhz Bonzodog: oh, my last comment was for you, sorry
10:13 jdong these seem better on the forum than on the Wiki
10:13 bustacap jdong, frivolous howtos exist all over the Wiki as well, it takes a good Wiki
Team to go through and integrate other people's work into the larger Wiki's
10:13 earobinson but is there anything wrong if there is a wiki page?
10:14 bustacap we can fix those with redirects when they have been integrated with other pages..
10:14 mhz bustacap: yes, actually, today there are over 4500 pages in the wiki
10:14 earobinson just because we have extra content is not a bad thing, we just need to make sure
the more important things are easy to find
10:14 jdong earobinson: no, but there is also nothing wrong with redundancy
10:14 mhz bustacap: and it is almost impossible to give pages lot of admin love
10:14 bustacap jdong, that howto was great!
10:14 jdong we have forums and mailing lists... that doesn't mean we have to get rid of one
in favor for another
10:14 bustacap we need howtos like that..
10:15 Bonzodog I have a better idea if I may?
10:15 jdong I still think that the wiki and forums can coexist
10:15 earobinson jdong isent that the point, having them on both the wiki and forums would
be redundancy but there is nothing wrong with that
10:15 bustacap no, forums and mailing lists have different roles to perform..
10:15 jdong explain
10:15 Bonzodog can I have a moment to explain?
10:15 mhz shoot
10:15 jdong bustacap: the forums provide support, ubuntu-users provides support, #ubuntu
provides support. Difference?
10:15 bustacap mailing lists are for more technically inclined people and are also used to
announce changes and for team collaboration
10:16 Bonzodog right, we have to accept that the udsf is not going to go away
10:16 bustacap the forums are the best 1st level support mechanism
10:16 Bonzodog it will remain
10:16 bustacap point-and-click help in a web browser..
10:16 jdong bustacap: so you are saying that the forum is for dumber people??
10:16 bustacap jdong, no, I am saying it is the easiest method of getting help
10:17 mdke forums are easier to understand than mailing lists/irc
10:17 mdke that's what he means
10:17 bustacap not saying that technical subjects aren't discussed in the forums
10:17 earobinson its just gives more choice to the user
10:17 jdong well, in the same way posting a thread is the easiest way of letting someone know
about something.
10:17 jdong that just gives more choice to the user, as well
10:17 mdke is this on the agenda?
=== Bonzodog decides to post his point in a second....
10:17 jdong if the wiki folks want to make that a wiki page, cool -- go ahead. We'd gladly
edit the original thread and link to the new wiki page
10:17 bustacap jdong, I know about the ease, what I am saying is, with a little more effort, we
can keep the docs manageable..
10:18 earobinson jdong yes and no, because there are so many posts on the forums if I make a post
on mounting a hd it quickly gets hidden in a wiki it will always stay ontop
=== mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
it's pretty clear that the forums are not good for howtos jdong. it would be
10:18 mdke really nice if the forum and wiki could work together and provide a nice combined
resource, each doing what it does well
10:18 mdke ideally, it would work really well like that, IMO
10:18 earobinson mdke +1
10:18 jdong earobinson: there are 514 forum HOWTO's. How do you keep all of them on top?
10:18 bustacap creation of howtos directly into the Wiki would be the best solution..
10:19 mhz mdke: as usual +1
10:19 earobinson exactly in a forum you cant, but on a wiki you can have sections that keeps the
info easy to browse
10:19 jdong creation onto the wiki with discussion threads in the forum is a good idea
10:19 mdke jdong, absolutely
10:19 bustacap jdong +1
10:19 jdong I agree with that
10:19 Bonzodog bustacap: as long as everytime one is created, there is a forum link already
there
10:19 mdke jdong, what is the status with LP authentication for the forum?
10:19 manicka we already have a solution in place to better organise and archive forum data
10:19 mhz jdong: we could have a CategoryForumHowto
10:19 jdong mdke: ryan/ubuntugeek was on that; I don't know exactly
10:20 earobinson mdke what is LP?
10:20 bustacap jdong, if we can make some progress on this with the forum admins, we should keep
in touch on this matter..
10:20 mdke earobinson, launchpad
10:20 bustacap LaunchPad
10:20 earobinson kk
10:20 bustacap ok, Restructing the Wiki
10:20 Bonzodog um...if I may
10:20 jdong our main concern is that howto's placed on the wiki would be removed if they
don't meet a certain "quality level"
10:20 bustacap manicka, do you have any thoughts on restructing..
10:20 Bonzodog I have something I would like to add
10:20 bustacap jdong, things don't get removed..
10:20 jdong as long as you can assure us that censorship won't take place, we're pretty happy
10:20 mdke jdong, not removed
10:21 jdong ok, /me happy now :)
10:21 bustacap Bonzodog, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSF/MeetingAgenda - add a agenda item
10:21 mdke what happens is people improve stuff if they think it's weak
10:21 manicka restructuring what,, the wiki or the forum
10:21 bustacap the Ubuntu Wiki
10:21 bustacap do you have any thoughts on it..
10:21 jdong mdke: ok, good. Building on old work is great, I love it.
10:21 mdke jdong, there will need to be quality control, but not by removing stuff, probably
by categorising it
10:21 bustacap classification and indexing..
10:21 Bonzodog this concerns all of this
10:21 mdke jdong, that's not well evolved at the moment
10:21 jdong let's let bonzodog speak
10:21 mdke sure, go Bonzodog
10:21 manicka I have lots of ideas, I've discussed a few on the doc-team mailing list, but they
were dismissed
10:21 mdke manicka, eh? which ideas were dismissed?
10:21 bustacap well manicka bring it up here..
10:22 Bonzodog right - we have to accept that the udsf will not go away right?
10:22 manicka it was some time ago
10:22 bustacap Bonzodog, can we put that on the end of the meeting agenda..
10:22 mdke Bonzodog, no, that depends on your point of view.
10:22 Bonzodog we will contiinue to archive how-to's from thwe forums
10:22 Bonzodog however I have an idea
10:22 bustacap manicka, if you can recall what was rejected, please re-raise your ideas..
10:23 bustacap Bonzodog, a little later in the meeting please..
10:23 mdke manicka, absolutely. If things were rejected for no good reason, tell me
10:23 mdke we want ideas to improve the wiki
10:23 bustacap I am after some input from the UDSF guys at the moment, and the Ubuntu Forums,
for any ideas on how to improve the Wiki
=== mdke nods at bustacap
hmm, one last thing, if a forum user really doesn't want to learn moinmoin, what
10:24 jdong should we do then? Post unformatted text and have others come along and fix it
up?
10:24 Bonzodog bustacap: the front end and editing of moinmoin was enough to put me off
10:24 Bonzodog I really don't like moinmoin
10:24 bustacap jdong, absolutely..
10:24 jdong for you and I, it may be easy enough to learn it, but there are some users that
really don't like learning new stuff
10:24 Bonzodog and I have tried
10:25 Bonzodog omg I have tried to use it
10:25 mhz bustacap: wiki needs love, lots of it, indeed, but it is kind of difficult to
provide the "best" structure mainly due to its own nature
10:25 bustacap jdong, that is quite alright for users to post unformatted and place it into
CategoryCleanup
10:25 Bonzodog but it's unusable
10:25 mdke jdong, yes. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum
10:25 mhz Bonzodog: but have you tried Moin 1.5?
10:25 mhz (WYIWYG editor)
10:25 jdong bustacap: but then the whole organization just goes downhill if everything goes
into the cleanup category, right?
10:25 bustacap Bonzodog, adding an agenda item should be just a copy and paste from the other
items..
10:25 mdke mhz, it doesn't matter if he has, we don't use it
10:25 bustacap Bonzodog, I will just put your agenda item at the end, I will bring it up then..
10:26 mdke jdong, yep, that's why the category system needs some rework
10:26 mhz mdke: sure, but MAYBE, he can use desktopedition and copy paste
10:26 manicka bustacap, we need to move away from this idea that the forums and udsf are
separate entities
10:26 mhz :D
10:26 bustacap jdong, yes, we are looking at reworking the categories.. but it is still usable
now..
10:26 Bonzodog can it please be accepted that I am an admin of the udsf?
10:26 jdong just a heads-up, one of the other admins is not happy about the current decision
10:26 earobinson manicka, they are separate entities, they work well as a team but at the end of
the day they are 2 diffent projects
10:27 mdke jdong, which decision?
10:27 bustacap manicka, is this to do with the restructuring of the Wiki?
10:27 jdong I am working to understand exactly what the disagreement is
10:27 jdong mdke: all howtos are done on the wiki
10:27 mdke jdong, oh, i think we're a long way from that decision
10:27 jdong mdke: alright
10:27 jdong so let's make clear the roadmap as far as howto's on the forums are concerned
10:27 bustacap jdong, but as long as we can work towards greater creation of howtos in the Wiki,
it's a step forward IMO
10:28 bustacap sure jdong, shoot..
10:28 mdke jdong, even if everyone here is agreed, some social barriers need to be broken
down before howtos are wiki-only
10:28 jdong I support greater efforts to migrate current forum HOWTOS onto the wiki
10:28 mdke plus, some wiki-forum technology will be required, I think
10:28 jdong that makes all sense
10:28 jdong but I don't want to deny users from posting howto's on the forum
10:29 manicka agreed jdong
10:29 Bonzodog users will always post on the forums
10:29 earobinson jdong, +1
10:29 jdong we will do all that's possible to urge users to make new documents on the Wiki,
but if a user so chooses, he still can put HOWTO's on the forum
10:29 bustacap jdong, the interest isn't really in the existing - it is in the new HowTos..
10:29 Bonzodog even if we ask them not to
10:29 mdke jdong, that's a shame, because it really isn't the best medium. and if the two
resources were integrated properly, there should be no problem
10:30 mhz jdong: are forums howtos html? If so, we can use Html2Moin.py
10:30 jdong mhz: after rendered, they are html; internally they're vbulletin markup
10:30 bustacap jdong, making the HowTo section read-only with a Quick Start guide on how to
create a very basic page in the wiki is a possible solution..
10:30 jdong bustacap: then users will just start making howto articles in other parts of the
forum
10:30 jdong that's inevitable
10:30 Bonzodog mhz: is the wiki set for u[pgrade in the near future?
10:30 bustacap jdong, I know that you can't make users do anything..
10:30 Bonzodog to 1.5
10:30 mhz Bonzodog: dont know yet.
10:30 Bonzodog ?
10:30 mdke jdong, that depends on the level of integration
10:31 mdke if there is a howto section, which is the wiki, that won't happen
10:31 jdong bustacap: currently, isolating howto's to the HOWTO area is as good as we can do
as forum staff, IMO
10:31 bustacap but if there is a statement and a firm guide to tell people to create in the
wiki, that is the best that can be done..
=== tseng [n=tseng@unaffiliated/tseng] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
10:31 mhz Bonzodog: but I can happily help you use MoinDesktop edition 1.5 and show you
copy/paste into current wiki
10:31 jdong bustacap: users will start replying to questions with mini HOWTO's, and then
you'll just get repetitive clutter
10:31 jdong that's why the HOWTO area started in the first place
10:31 bustacap jdong, I just wish people could make more of an effort to create good doco..
10:31 mhz Bonzodog: desktop edition takes 1 minute to work in your /home
10:32 jdong bustacap: agreed; but we can't force people to comply with our wishes ;)
10:32 bustacap well perhaps a limit on the size of the HowTos in the howto section..
10:32 Bonzodog mhz: I will look, but I also deal with mediawiki
10:32 Bonzodog and I am a mediawiki fanboy
10:32 mhz Bonzodog: I used to be a mediawiki fan too
10:32 bustacap any over 4 lines will need to be created in the Wiki (something like that - needs
more thought)
10:32 jdong a size limit will just force people to cram more information vaguely
10:32 mdke jdong, I'll say it again: that depends on the level of integration
10:32 earobinson also the forums let people talk about the how to the wiki will not allow that
10:33 jdong mdke: how far are we planning ahead here?
10:33 mdke earobinson, we can use the forums to discuss wiki howtos
10:33 mdke jdong, it would take some planning yeah
10:33 bustacap jdong, we could have more meetings ;)
10:33 jdong as far as soon after this meeting, I can peacefully instate what I've agreed to
now :)
10:33 earobinson maybe we could convert the how to section on the forums to be, a link to you wiki
how to section
10:33 earobinson mdke, I was getting at that
10:33 bustacap sounds great jdong..
10:33 jdong but as far as big moves, such as no HOWTO's on forums, that's not something we
can do suddenly
10:33 mdke of course not
10:33 bustacap no, that's right jdong..
10:33 jdong there needs to be a smooth transition and evaluation/meetings along the way
10:34 mdke it will take lots of planning, and talking
10:34 bustacap it's shift in the "culture" as well..
10:34 bustacap a shift in habit
10:34 bustacap that takes time..
10:34 earobinson I think linking is the best of both worlds
10:34 Bonzodog I have a much better solution
10:34 Bonzodog use interwiki
10:34 mdke Bonzodog, interwiki between a wiki and a forum?
10:35 earobinson interwiki?
10:35 Bonzodog to link from the main wiki to the udsf
10:35 bustacap jdong, moving back to suggestions for the Wiki - I think the
wiki.ubuntu.com/Forums solution isn't working and needs to rethought
10:35 mdke we're not talking about the udsf Bonzodog
10:35 Bonzodog that way we can carry on archiving howto's
10:35 Bonzodog from the forums
10:35 bustacap howtos are archived by being created in the Wiki
10:35 Bonzodog and the wiki then provides all the vaild links
10:36 mdke Bonzodog, if you do that, the howto has to be written once, and ported once,
rather than just written once. You see the difference?
10:36 bustacap double handling..
10:36 jdong bustacap, along the lines of that, we can say that the Forum-Wiki delta is an
effort to put the forum HOWTO's into the Wiki, correct?
10:36 mdke yep
10:36 mdke ideas for improving that are welcome
10:36 jdong I think we can safely say that having an intermediate wiki in a different format
is truly double-handling, right?
10:36 bustacap yes it is, I would propose the scrapping of the current system in favour of
better help guides for Forum users in the howto section
10:37 mhz mdke: and you think interwiki feature may work sanely ?
10:37 manicka by the delta, you mean the pastebin that was set up
10:37 mdke jdong, you may think that, but that is what the UDSF is, and it is pretty
fiercely defended by the people involved
jdong, instead of users posting under the forums section, they should just create
10:37 bustacap their own pages in the main - I don't think we need to "sandbox" forum users'
pages..
10:38 bustacap manicka, I think the "pastebin" solution isn't viable..
10:38 mdke bustacap, the idea is to have an area where markup is not a problem, and people
who want to clean things up can find it easily
10:38 manicka no, I agree
10:38 bustacap users can just create their docs inthe main - and place the doc into
CategoryCleanup
bustacap: there's just simply a culture/awareness gap here; not all of us are
10:38 jdong educated in how the doc team organizes the wiki. that's why we've been trying to
just migrate articles to the wiki and have you guys organize them
10:38 manicka at least not the version that is currently on the wiki
10:38 bustacap jdong, there isn't much organisation at the moment..
10:38 bustacap just a main index
10:38 bustacap I am working on changing that in a big way
10:39 earobinson jdong we could sticky a link to a wiki how to on making wikis
10:39 bustacap the WikiTeam needs a Cleanup subteam along with Wiki Love Days
10:39 mhz .oO(we can also include a little trick so users see this box: "Create a page here
_________"
10:39 jdong Some sort of documentation of how to work on the Ubuntu wiki would be great
10:39 mdke earobinson, there is one already
10:39 earobinson my bad
10:39 jdong and I don't mean just syntax; organization, layout, and everything
10:39 bustacap hehe @ mhz, that is sneaky and underhand, it's good..
10:39 mdke jdong, there is a sticky on the howto section. That references the relevant
documentation
10:40 bustacap I think mhz does have a really good suggestion..
10:41 jdong mdke: that actually illustrates the wiki barrier pretty well: There's 10+ pages
of reading material for contributing content to the wikis!
10:41 mhz bustacap: i'll provide a url for you to see
=== bobblehead [n=bobblehe@64.141.138.3] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
In the howto section, you can have a very simple form that asks for the title of
10:41 bustacap the HowTo, the user places the name in there, it then redirects the user to edit
mode of their title - eg. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewHowToTitle?action=edit :)
10:41 mdke jdong, erm, one post on the forum, and one page on the wiki should do it
10:41 mdke jdong, but yeah, we can always work on breaking down the barrier
10:41 jdong mdke: right, but the 10 pages of reading you say was "VITAL" to do?
10:41 jdong that's a part of the barrier
10:41 mdke jdong, perhaps I should revisit my howto
10:41 mdke s/howto/post
10:42 mdke the WikiGuide page is comprehensive enough now
10:42 mhz bustacap: http://www.druidwiki.org/ See at the bottom of the page
10:42 bustacap jdong, there is a bit of a "you must do it this way" feel about the wiki help
docs which I will work on removing
10:42 mdke it wasn't at the time
10:42 jdong bustacap: +1
10:42 bustacap jdong, that is part of making the Wiki more friendly
10:42 mhz bustacap: that page uses lots of moin nice tricks
10:42 mdke you can't remove all of that I'm afraid
10:42 mdke because it's like saying "don't worry about making good documentation"
10:42 earobinson but there is a huge advantage to haveing all the wikis in the same style bustacap
10:43 bustacap mdke, sure, but we can encourage good documentation..
10:43 bustacap not enforce it as a hard and fast rule
10:43 jdong mdke: that's one of the attitudes of the forum howto section. It's very loose and
relaxed
10:43 bustacap perhaps just "softer" language in the instructions..
10:43 mdke jdong, "don't worry about making good documentation"???
10:43 mdke surely not
10:43 jdong mdke: in a way, yes
10:44 mdke hmm
10:44 jdong we don't have a 10 page guide on writing a 5 line howto
10:44 mdke are there rubbish howtos there?
10:44 bustacap mdke, it's not a case of - "stuff it - let somebody else fix it up" - it's more
that if you want to create good doco, here's how..
10:44 earobinson bustacap, but even then when a user makes a how to and links it on the forums and
it gets edited that could cause problems no?
10:44 jdong mdke: at times, yes
10:44 mdke jdong, ah. That wastes the user's time
10:44 jdong mdke: there are howto's on all levels of complexity and quality
10:44 mdke he then has to look for another one
10:44 bustacap earobinson, heaven forbid a Wiki getting edited by others.. :)
10:44 jdong mdke: no it doesn't.
10:44 mdke i think so
10:45 earobinson im saying it can be a good thing, but if a user makes one and then the style gets
changed thats where problems could start bustacap
10:45 bustacap ok, jdong & mdke hear me on this..
10:45 bustacap mdke, we can agree that there is a need for good doco
All I can say is that we've not once got a rant about users not being able to
10:45 jdong find howto's, but several users who have tried to create docs on the wiki come
back confused
10:45 bustacap jdong, we can agree that shouldn't be the barrage of restrictions and rules for
users..
10:45 jdong correct
10:46 bustacap we need to simplify the "guidelines" for creating new Wiki docs..
jdong, finding and creating are two different problems. I won't tell you that the
10:46 mdke wiki is easy to create documentation on. Although it's not as hard as people
think, and we can work on it
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10:46 bustacap sort of like how Malone is a simplified Bugzilla..
10:46 jdong mdke: correct, but how would you like forum users to act diferently than now;
that's currently my #1 concern as representative of the forums
10:47 manicka mdke, for ordinary users, the wiki is overwhelming
10:47 bustacap basically, search for an existing topic, if it doesn't exist - create a new one
and follow some simple formatting guidelines..
10:47 jdong currently, I see more of a doc team side effort than a forums issue
10:47 bustacap manicka, I would agree with that for some ordinary users, we need to simplify the
Wiki help & guidelines..
we'd be glad to lend a hand, but more important I'd first like to know for the
10:47 jdong average forum user making a HOWTO thread, how this is going to change after this
meeting
10:48 bustacap I will be scouring the logs for this meeting and bringing up a lot of these
subjects at the next meeting - this has been very productive so far..
10:48 bustacap doc team meeting that is..
10:48 bustacap jdong, we need to make the Wiki help simpler and friendlier..
10:48 jdong yeah, we all need to stay in close contact and understand each other better
10:49 bustacap more meetings like this ;)
10:49 jdong ugh, pretty much :)
10:49 earobinson :)
10:49 bustacap so manicka, Bonzodog, jdong - any thoughts on any structuring within the Wiki
10:49 Bonzodog yeah...simplification is needed BADLY
10:50 Bonzodog also, my login to the wiki keeps on going awry
10:50 mdke Bonzodog, what sort of simplification?
10:50 bustacap I am of the opinion that the UserDocumentation page needs further indexing at
levels below it..
10:50 manicka well, the obvious one is the layout of the userdocs page
10:50 mdke Bonzodog, login is cookie based. if you delete your cookies, it goes away
10:50 Bonzodog no, I have an 'invalid password'
10:50 manicka you need some subsections created with how-tos linked together, like the recent
wifi page
10:50 Bonzodog as i am using my LP login
10:51 mdke bustacap, that will happen when the wiki is moved, and searching works properly
10:51 mdke manicka, ^^
10:51 bustacap sure, I am working on the UserDocumentation page manicka - I will make the
changes publicly known once I have a solid plan..
10:51 Bonzodog so I cannot change skin
10:51 bustacap mdke, I thought the searching works pretty good at the moment..
10:51 mdke bustacap, search for "bluetooth"
10:51 mdke you'll get like 4 pages which aren't documentation
10:51 bustacap mdke, you'll get worse results on Google :D
10:52 bustacap searching is searching..
10:52 manicka and some way of establishing if a howto is for a specific version of ubuntu or a
generic howto
10:52 mdke manicka, yes that is true. There's a thread on the ML right now about that
10:52 manicka the last time I looked there were some redundent pages there
10:53 jdong ok, http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=100, on that page, we have a
read-before-you-post message encouraging users to go on the Wiki
manicka, could I invite you along to the next docteam meeting with your thoughts
10:53 bustacap on the wiki, because these are the exact topics that I am bringing up at the
moment..
10:53 jdong is there anything you guys would like to see changed about that?
10:53 bobblehead bobble..
10:53 mdke nope, I am happy with it
10:53 bustacap jdong, I think I will talk about a restructuring of the whole Forums->Wiki issue
with mdke and we'll get back to you..
10:53 bustacap the page is good though..
10:53 manicka bustacap, I'm usually there anyway
10:53 jdong bustacap: then we'll follow-up through e-mail?
10:54 bustacap sure on the Forums->Wiki issue, yeah
10:54 mdke jdong, have you got a minute for a couple of things
10:54 mdke not related
10:54 bustacap jdong, and maybe another meeting as well..
10:54 jdong mdke: yeah, like 15 minutes or so, shoot :)
10:54 bustacap ok, onto UDSF related topics..
10:54 dsas would it be a good idea for the udsf guys subscribed to the doc ml if they
wished? fresh input and their experiences would be helpful on things
10:54 earobinson why not also post it to the forums let the users know whats going on
10:54 jdong bustacap: alright
10:54 jdong this has been a good discussion so far, thanks everyone :)
jdong, one is enough :) http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=91 if I add a
10:55 mdke post about the wiki documentation and official help docs, will you sticky it
there?
10:55 mdke dsas, yes, very good
10:55 bustacap yes thanks for your attendance jdong..
10:55 manicka dsas, I've been on the doc ml for some time
10:55 earobinson because that way as things do change they will know why and have a chance to come
to a meeting and make there voice heard
10:55 jdong mdke: sure; I will
10:55 jdong bustacap: no problem; glad I could be of assistance
10:55 mdke jdong, ok I'll PM you or something, if that's ok
10:55 manicka as is kb and others
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10:55 jdong mdke: pm, e-mail, all fine
10:55 mdke thanks all
10:55 bustacap Bonzodog, you wanted raise the topic of the UDSF
10:56 ubuntugeek good meeting.. thanks jdong..
10:56 Bonzodog I wanted to propose the idea of creating a link between the udsf and the wiki
10:56 bustacap hello ubuntugeek
10:56 ubuntugeek hello
10:56 Bonzodog along the lines of using the interwiki
10:56 earobinson lol ubuntugeek lurking in the shadows eh
10:56 jdong lol, I was just commenting on that, earobinson ;)
10:56 bustacap Bonzodog, one exists - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSF
10:57 Bonzodog yeah, I created that
10:57 ubuntugeek had a second to drop in.. but jdong is doing a fine job and i'll just watch..
10:58 bustacap well, if nobody has anything extra to add..
10:58 Bonzodog what i was saying is that how-to's could remain on the udsf
10:58 Bonzodog archived by us
10:58 bustacap they can Bonzodog..
10:58 dsas manicka, ok, I wasn't aware of that.
10:58 Bonzodog there could be hard lionks put into the main wiki
10:58 Bonzodog *links
10:58 bustacap we have no input into what gets copied and pasted around the Internet..
10:59 bustacap Bonzodog, that is defeating the purpose of the wiki
10:59 bustacap a wiki that links to another wiki??
10:59 Bonzodog so we become the how-to section of the wiki effectively
10:59 bustacap the wiki is the how-to section..
10:59 Bonzodog thats what interwiki is all about#
10:59 Bonzodog the wiki contains alot more than howtos's
11:00 bustacap I don't think this is the intention of the UDSF team? to link off the Ubuntu
Wiki?
11:00 Bonzodog we are the forum howto's archive
11:00 Bonzodog nothing more
11:00 Bonzodog we actually have linked across to the wiki
11:00 Bonzodog on occasion
11:01 bustacap ok..
11:01 Bonzodog so we archive the forums how-to's
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11:01 Bonzodog then we place a link using interwiki in the main wiki
11:01 mhz bye guys and thx for such interesting discussions
11:01 bustacap thanks mhz
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11:02 Bonzodog that way users can still create their how-to's in the forums
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11:02 Bonzodog we take charge of archiving forum related info
11:02 bustacap Bonzodog, a solution for the how-tos have been discussed using the official
resources of the Ubuntu community
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11:02 bustacap official Ubuntu Forums -> official Ubuntu Wiki
11:02 manicka that's a very long term project bustacap
11:03 KingBahamut I aggree manicka
11:03 bustacap yes it is..
11:03 Bonzodog my solution works
11:03 Bonzodog I've seen it
11:03 Bonzodog i've tried it :)
11:03 KingBahamut sorry for my lateness ladies and gents
11:03 bustacap sorry KingBahamut, the meeting is coming to a close..
11:03 Bonzodog manicka: we need to bring KB upto date
11:03 KingBahamut figures my dumb luck would elude
11:03 KingBahamut ce la vie
11:04 mdke there is a log, no problem
11:04 bustacap yeah, catch the discussion in the log..
11:04 Bonzodog but that is my idea
11:04 earobinson + follow up emails and meetings
11:04 bustacap I think I will close off the meeting here..
11:04 earobinson and I assume any info will be posted on the forums
11:04 bustacap yeah + earobinson
11:04 bustacap sure there is a post - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=686596
11:04 Bonzodog bbustacap: I thought the udsf was to be a major part of this?
11:05 Bonzodog I would hope that we could work together
11:05 bustacap Bonzodog, the main topic on the agenda was the duplication of the howtos on the
UDSF
11:05 Bonzodog and is that not what i have been trying to discuss
11:05 bustacap and a proposal on a joint effort to identify and correct the duplication within
the two Wikis..
11:05 Bonzodog a solution
11:06 bustacap do you see there being a duplication problem between the two wikis?
11:06 Bonzodog yes
11:07 Bonzodog but we are already ahead on that
11:07 earobinson why is it a problem Bonzodog?
11:07 Bonzodog so why don't you let us continue what we are doing
11:07 Bonzodog and we will then create interwiki links to the main wiki
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11:08 bustacap well I will raise the issue at the next docteam meeting on proposing to
identifing duplicates..
11:08 Bonzodog that ways the forums stuff remains as is
11:08 bustacap sure, you guys just archive.. I am not trying to stop the activities of the UDSF
Bonzodog..
11:08 bustacap I am after a better documentation solution, that's my angle..
11:09 Bonzodog isn't it better though to continue with the how-to's going to the udsf from the
forums?
11:09 Bonzodog thus we stop duplication onto the main wiki
11:10 mdke night all, gtg
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11:10 earobinson I still dont understand what is so bad wit a bit of duplication
11:10 jdong alright, yeah, I've gotta be heading off too...
11:10 jdong I think the rest of the discussion for now will be non-forum related
11:10 earobinson later jdong mdke
11:11 Bonzodog i say let the users continue posting how-to's to the forums, we will transfer
them to the udsf, then create a hardlinked page in the main wiki to the udsf
11:12 bustacap Bonzodog, this is causing some many extra unnecessary steps.. - this has been
discussed above..
11:12 Bonzodog it will basically echo the index setup of the udsf
11:12 earobinson bustacap, +1
11:13 bustacap bustacap, +1 as well
11:13 earobinson 1 step that makes the info available to all 3 is better than 3 steps
11:13 Bonzodog but you are proposing cutting the supply route by not letting users post how-to's
on the forums?
11:14 Bonzodog thus we suddenly have no info to archive
11:14 bustacap I have to get going now.. Thanks for everybody turning up and having a great
discussion - progress has been made - keep in touch..
11:14 earobinson not stop it just make it more easy to post in other locations and then link from
the forums
11:14 KingBahamut Bonzo, that just means our doc writers go outside the forums
11:14 KingBahamut and it becomes a non issue
11:14 earobinson exactly
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11:17 earobinson meeting over???
11:18 dsas i'd say so, it seems most everyone has gone.
11:19 dsas just waiting for the irc logs to refresh so I can catch up :)MeetingLogs/DocTeam_2006-02-03 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:27:18 by localhost)