Meeting started by AlanBell at 18:01:45 UTC. The full logs are available at http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-29-18.01.log.txt
LINK: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda is the agenda (AlanBell, 18:06:01)
- Review last meetings action items
- Open items in the IRCC tracker
- Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
LINK: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bots/ubuntu-bots/devel/changes not recently it seems (AlanBell, 18:16:38)
- Welcoming our new operators
- IRCC meeting times
ACTION: meeting timeslots to be taken to the mailing list, 11:00UTC slot is in danger of being dropped (AlanBell, 18:42:33)
- ubuntuuser.de - Fuchs toddy
- Any Other Business
Meeting ended at 19:08:28 UTC.
- the IRCC agrees not to object to the #ubuntuusers GRF
- For: 3 Against: 0 Abstained: 0
AlanBell to call for helpers to implement eir-like functionality in ubottu
- meeting timeslots to be taken to the mailing list, 11:00UTC slot is in danger of being dropped
People present (lines said)
- Fuchs (38)
- pangolin (36)
- meetingology (14)
- LjL (12)
- oCean (11)
- Silverlion (11)
- Pici (7)
- Myrtti (6)
- ubottu (6)
- dax (4)
- pleia2 (3)
- christel (2)
- MarkusH (2)
- toddy (2)
- Frickelpit (2)
- k1l (2)
- funkyHat (0)
18:01:45 <AlanBell> #startmeeting
18:01:45 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
18:01:49 <k1l> hi
18:01:50 <AlanBell> hi all
18:02:06 <Silverlion> hey there
18:02:07 <Frickelpit> huch, der k1l
18:02:11 <pangolin> o/
18:02:49 <AlanBell> well hi everyone
18:02:54 <oCean> o/
18:03:00 <AlanBell> Pici: funkyHat: o/
18:03:38 <LjL> hi
18:03:40 <Silverlion> To all the german Lubuntu-Users in here #invite to #lubuntu-de-offtopic
18:03:58 <AlanBell> we will get started soon and we won't exceed an hour this time, might end up deferring some items if we don't get through them
18:04:52 <pangolin> Pici funkyHat wake up! 18:05:26 * Silverlion will follow the meeting but as i am complete newbie i will stand in the background
18:05:35 <AlanBell> hmm, seems I am all on my lonesome for the moment
18:05:46 <AlanBell> ah well, lets go anyhow
18:06:01 <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda is the agenda
18:06:07 <AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
18:06:20 <AlanBell> this was done
18:06:49 <AlanBell> eir is now reporting ban expiry in #ubuntu-ops-monitor and is functioning just as it ever was
18:06:56 <pangolin> and is currently being ignored at a greater degree
18:07:00 <AlanBell> we can talk more about eir later in the main topic
18:07:34 <AlanBell> yes, it is a bit, if you have bans being nagged please deal with them one way or another
18:07:47 <AlanBell> anyhow, this item was done.
18:07:54 <AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
18:08:00 <AlanBell> there are none
18:08:10 <AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
18:08:18 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 788503 IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric - tsimpson
18:08:19 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788503
18:08:44 <AlanBell> not much progress to report on this one, I believe we have a draft of some new guidelines, I have not reviewed it in detail yet
18:09:10 <AlanBell> anyone got anything else to say about this one?
18:09:12 <pangolin> there is an etherpad draft, yes. i don't have the link
18:09:38 <pangolin> last time I looked I think all it really needed was some clean up.
18:09:58 <AlanBell> ok, hopefully we will get time to do that and have something to report at the next meeting
18:10:06 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 884671 Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly - jussi
18:10:08 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884671
18:10:24 <AlanBell> well we have been doing some recruitment \o/
18:10:49 <pangolin> Welcome new members of the ops team!
18:10:56 <AlanBell> yes, welcome all
18:11:30 <AlanBell> lets move on from this bug, I think we can review it again later and see how we are doing
18:11:45 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia
18:11:46 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500
18:12:25 <AlanBell> so on this one we have moved the eir control channel out of -ops-team to make way for some new eir-like functionality from ubottu and/or floodbots
18:12:42 <LjL> From what I've gathered lately, most people seem to be happy with the idea of ubottu handling this instead of eir, but I think there is still a lot of implementation work to be done.
18:12:54 <pangolin> is there work being done on ubottu?
18:12:56 <AlanBell> indeed
18:13:12 <LjL> I think ubottu would be a better candidate (even though the FloodBots already have ops and ubottu doesn't), because it runs the bantracker.
18:13:25 <pangolin> I would much prefer we have one bot that can handle this
18:13:35 <pangolin> ubottu would be my choice as well
18:13:35 <ubottu> pangolin: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent
18:13:37 <AlanBell> I would like to get some names for people wanting to work on this and some actions happening by the next meeting
18:13:39 <pangolin> we know
18:14:09 <LjL> AlanBell: I *think* someone is experimenting with ubottu, because I've noticed some, erm, notices from it that weren't there in the past...?
18:14:39 <LjL> #ubuntu-bots-team is pretty silent lately, if there's work, it's being done quietly...
18:15:17 <pangolin> AlanBell: perhaps ask on the irc mailing list for some volunteers to help with ubottu? unless there are security issues that need to be considered
18:15:36 <AlanBell> ok, I can find out if someone has been doing stuff on ubottu
18:16:38 <AlanBell> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bots/ubuntu-bots/devel/changes not recently it seems
18:16:56 <AlanBell> ok, good suggestion pangolin, I will mail the list
18:17:13 * meetingology AlanBell to call for helpers to implement eir-like functionality in ubottu
18:17:16 <pangolin> AlanBell: i think the only thing would be bantracker access
18:17:32 <pangolin> but probably can be worked out
18:17:52 <AlanBell> yeah, we discussed that before, bantracker isn't a massive security worry
18:17:54 <LjL> AlanBell: on ubottu.com, some eir-related files were updated recently
18:18:18 <AlanBell> eir related files??
18:18:33 <pangolin> eir and ubottu do some chatting
18:18:45 <AlanBell> ok
18:18:46 <pangolin> something may have been changed in those files
18:18:49 <LjL> AlanBell: yes, I don't know whether it's what pangolin says, or a replacement for eir in the work.
18:18:59 <LjL> AlanBell: I can have a look, I have read access on it.
18:20:07 <AlanBell> ok, well lets figure out who wants to work on this and arrange a separate workshop on it
18:20:16 <AlanBell> moving on
18:20:20 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541
18:20:29 <AlanBell> there were 19, there are now 15 I think
18:21:15 <AlanBell> I spoke to those on the list who I could find online, I think one was not using an ubuntu cloak, another went for an unaffiliated cloak and the other two renewed their Ubuntu membership
18:21:15 <pangolin> those people are being contacted and cloaks removed if they chose not to renew?
18:21:29 <pangolin> cool
18:21:56 <AlanBell> one of them had let their MOTU membership expire intentionally and was transferred into the irc members group as a slighly unusual renewal
18:22:21 <AlanBell> we will go through the rest of the list and update next meeting
18:22:34 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 916247 in ubuntu-community "devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916247
18:22:36 <Silverlion> Question regarding cloak i have
18:22:52 <pangolin> ask!
18:23:09 <Silverlion> do i need an ubuntu cloak ... my friends from SII gave me one...
18:23:28 <AlanBell> we only have cloaks for Ubuntu members, I will explain that a bit later, your current one is fine Silverlion
18:23:40 <Silverlion> AlanBell: copy that
18:24:04 <AlanBell> ok, so this bug, the wiki was full of spam, this has now been cleaned up \o/
18:24:11 <AlanBell> and registration turned off so it won't happen again
18:24:38 <AlanBell> we should still port the content to wiki.ubuntu.com, but that is a bit of a pain going from mediawiki to moin syntax
18:25:13 <AlanBell> ok, that concludes the bug list
18:25:23 <AlanBell> #topic Welcoming our new operators
18:25:35 <AlanBell> yay, welcome to the new operators \o/ 18:25:57 * Silverlion puts some six-packs of beer into the middle of the room
18:26:13 <Silverlion> is kinda tradition to bring something into a new "job" 18:26:59 * pangolin is looking forward to working with the new folks
18:27:16 <AlanBell> Benny Hult, Chris Druif, Jared Norris, Jens Leineweber, Mohana Kumar, Phill Whiteside, stlsaint, Unit 193 are the new operators we are welcoming to the core ops team
18:27:31 * Silverlion listens to Jens
18:28:44 <AlanBell> they have mostly all been invited to the -ops channel where they are voiced and the -ops-team channel, there are a couple who have been offline for the weekend and I haven't seen yet
18:29:52 <oCean> offline?
18:30:13 <Silverlion> an operator isn't supposed to have offline time, is he?
18:30:18 <AlanBell> there is an induction process that somewhat exists and we are adapting a bit, basically this runs to the precise release date
18:30:28 <AlanBell> oCean: does not compute!
18:31:33 <AlanBell> during the induction we are intending to run a handful of classes in the #ubuntu-classroom channel covering things like setting various types of bans, mediating with problem users, how the various bots work
18:32:08 <oCean> AlanBell: the new induction process starting from april?
18:32:13 <AlanBell> some of this will be useful as the #lubuntu channel grows
18:32:17 <AlanBell> oCean: ending then
18:32:39 <oCean> oh, I got it
18:32:41 <AlanBell> starting now, it is a 3 month thing, which as it starts now, takes us nicely up to the release
18:32:47 <oCean> yes, ok
18:33:25 <AlanBell> anyhow, the main point of it is to give us a timeframe in which to run these classes
18:33:55 <AlanBell> if this is a successful way to do induction I think I could see us doing it as a regular thing in line with the release cycle
18:34:08 <pleia2> it's nice to see such a process in place, as the project grows a lot of folks are put into positions of greater responsibility and some have felt they lack training
18:34:49 <Myrtti> I'm currently doing induction for freenode staffship, perhaps we could snatch some ideas and practises from there?
18:34:59 <AlanBell> so do another intake at the end of July across all our channels for the 12.10 release for example
18:34:59 <pangolin> o/ is all this going to be on the final? I just want to know what to study.
18:35:13 <oCean> hehe
18:35:35 <Myrtti> AlanBell: do we have a draft document or something for this, perhaps I could pitch in some ideas?
18:35:38 <AlanBell> anyhow, we are looking for volunteers to do various classes, please step forward 18:35:53 * Myrtti has already volunteered for irssi 101
18:35:56 <AlanBell> Myrtti: yes, we have some draft ideas, not in great detail
18:36:24 <LjL> AlanBell: I could run some of them I guess. Not about any specific client like Myrtti (I use Konversation, not very widespread), but about the more generic stuff.
18:36:30 <AlanBell> anyhow, you will be hearing more from us this week about that
18:36:37 <AlanBell> LjL: I have you down for the bots one
18:37:27 <AlanBell> any more questions about #lubuntu and the new operators?
18:38:08 <AlanBell> ok, moving on then
18:38:14 <AlanBell> #topic IRCC meeting times
18:38:30 <AlanBell> we want to have the meetings when people can get to them
18:38:44 <LjL> So apparently not at 18:00? :P
18:38:50 <AlanBell> the last meeting was the 11:00UTC saturday meeting and I had a lot of comments about it being inconvenient
18:39:09 <pangolin> This meeting time is great IMO the one that happens at 11:00 UTC blows chunks for me
18:39:10 <AlanBell> I emailed the list and asked if anyone wanted to speak up for that timeslot and had no reply
18:39:43 <AlanBell> elky: you were on holiday so might have missed that
18:40:46 <AlanBell> I kind of need the other IRCC members here to make any decisions on that, but I think we are agreed that the 11:00 UTC slot is mostly inconvenient and should be changed
18:40:59 <Myrtti> doodle / etc it?
18:41:38 <AlanBell> I will discuss with the rest of the IRCC and we will put it to the mailing list, if there are several options then a doodle poll
18:42:33 <AlanBell> #action meeting timeslots to be taken to the mailing list, 11:00UTC slot is in danger of being dropped 18:42:33 * meetingology meeting timeslots to be taken to the mailing list, 11:00UTC slot is in danger of being dropped
18:43:01 <AlanBell> #topic ubuntuuser.de - Fuchs toddy
18:43:15 <AlanBell> hi Fuchs, toddy and co o/
18:43:18 <toddy> o/
18:43:21 <MarkusH> o/
18:43:21 <Frickelpit> hi
18:43:31 <Fuchs> hello
18:43:47 <AlanBell> so the background to this is that there has been a request to set up #ubuntusers namespace on freenode
18:44:05 <AlanBell> and this would be managed by part of the -de locoteam right?
18:44:16 <Fuchs> AlanBell: I can give a short introduction if you like
18:44:26 <AlanBell> please do
18:44:31 <Fuchs> (disclaimer: I am speaking as both a member of the #ubuntu-de operators and part of the ubuntuusers team)
18:44:38 <Fuchs> (however, I am not speaking as a freenode staffer)
18:44:55 <Fuchs> great. Okay, for the german speaking parts, there are two different teams, which are both part of the LoCo
18:45:01 <dax> (If you need someone to speak as a freenode staffer about this, hi)
18:45:12 <Fuchs> there is the team which manages #ubuntu-de, similar to other ubuntu support channels
18:45:31 <Fuchs> then there is the ubuntuusers.de portal, which is a portal consisting of a forum, a wiki, a news feed and a planet
18:45:51 <Fuchs> historically both have been managed by different teams, which, however, work together
18:46:10 <Fuchs> now a grf-f has been filed by the ubuntuusers team, so that we can manage #ubuntuusers, which does not really fall in the ubuntu namespace,
18:46:35 <Fuchs> plus which is not managed by the #ubuntu-de operators. This channel has been in place for quite a long time, and is where users can contact ubuntuusers team members regarding the portal
18:47:06 <Fuchs> We had contact with several people, including nhandler and dholbach, and most things are clear. However, there are some questions open, so we brought a bunch of people today to clear things up
18:47:10 <AlanBell> do you get many english language users arriving in the channel?
18:47:21 <Fuchs> we have MarkusH, toddy, Frickelpit and me from ubuntuusers.de, and k1l and me from #ubuntu-de
18:47:30 <Fuchs> AlanBell: maybe one user per two months or so, max
18:47:58 <AlanBell> ok, and I trust they are helpfully redirected to a more appropriate channel
18:48:04 <Pici> uhh.. My clock said the meeting starts in 15 minutes... my apologies.
18:48:12 <Fuchs> The ubuntuusers.de portal is officially part of the german Ubuntu e.V., there is no commercial company behind us (and we are not afiliated with the ubuntu user magazine, two misinformations that were around)
18:48:17 <Fuchs> AlanBell: of course
18:48:29 <AlanBell> hi Pici
18:48:35 <Fuchs> so what we basically need is that one of you gives the okay to freenode staff, so that they can proceed the grf-f
18:49:05 <pangolin> Why not name the channel #ubuntu-de-portal or something similar so that it stays in the namespace?
18:49:16 <Fuchs> and then the ubuntuusers team will manage the #ubuntuusers channel, including cloaks to show people which team a team member is in. This helps a lot, since we have different teams on very different stuff (news suggestions, moderation stuff, tech stuff regarding the servers etc.)
18:49:56 <Fuchs> pangolin: because the team behind #ubuntu-de is a different one. Both are part of the LoCo, but it's different people. Ubuntuusers is a rather big thing (biggest german portal), so having the same team managing this would add quite some workload
18:50:17 <Fuchs> pangolin: also it has been like that for quite some time now, and most users are adapted to it. Also most links on wikis and other documentation is.
18:50:30 <Pici> To me this sounds rather obvious then. The IRC channels should reflect the organizational differences.
18:50:33 <pangolin> Fuchs: sounds reasonable.
18:50:47 <k1l> (as an ubuntu-de-op) im fine with that as long as the link for support to #ubuntu-de and for offtopic to #ubuntu-de-offtopic. we link to the wiki at ubuntuusers.de because its the best german linux wiki around
18:51:09 <LjL> I think pangolin has a point. You're part of the DE community but separate at the same time; Ubuntu has always had just "member" cloaks, so wouldn't this turn into a way to disperse the cloaks and the namespace?
18:51:18 <Fuchs> k1l: the link is set up like that in server error pages and wikis of ubuntuusers.de
18:51:33 <Fuchs> LjL: not really, since it's two different things
18:51:42 <AlanBell> I think it is clear that this is an existing situation, a well managed channel, and it is in the spirit of Ubuntu advocacy so tradmark use is fine
18:51:48 <Fuchs> LjL: I don't think that other local communities have the same situation with such a big portal
18:52:08 <pangolin> LjL: good point. I am not sure we want @ubuntuusers/member/ cloaks
18:52:09 <AlanBell> Fuchs: who would get the cloaks and what would an example one be?
18:52:26 <pangolin> it would cause confusion
18:52:31 <Fuchs> AlanBell: team members, @ubuntuusers/serverteam/username I think
18:52:44 <Fuchs> so it would not look like ubuntu member cloaks at all
18:53:10 <pangolin> yeah, I'm not happy with that. it still has ubuntu in it and couple imply membership status to the uninformed
18:53:17 <pangolin> could*
18:53:18 <Fuchs> I am quite sure that moving to a different namespace and beginning to mix up the two, including cloaks, will cause a lot more confusion among german users, which are used to the current situation for some years now
18:54:30 <Fuchs> so basically it would stay as is for the german ubuntu users, but the ubuntuusers team would have better possibilities of channel management
18:54:45 <Pici> Am I the only one not happy telling an existing Ubuntu advocacy group how to run their own organization?
18:54:53 <Fuchs> users would not be disturbed, #ubuntu-de Operators would not be disturbed and ubuntuusers people would be happy
18:55:27 <pangolin> Pici: I don't mind the channel name being #ubuntuusers. I don't like the idea of a separate cloak with the word Ubuntu in it.
18:55:53 <oCean> pangolin: I don't see why not, they're contributing to the project
18:55:57 <AlanBell> I am fine with that cloak format I think
18:56:10 <oCean> yes, I think it's a fine idea
18:56:13 <pangolin> then they should apply for membership like the rest of us did to get our cloak
18:56:29 <AlanBell> I suspect that most of the people getting that cloak would be well placed in terms of a significant and sustained contribution to get an Ubuntu member cloak
18:56:41 <Fuchs> pangolin: it's not the same as a membership cloak. It is also used to distinguish teams a bit
18:56:54 <Fuchs> AlanBell: probably, but it would add quite some administrative overhead
18:56:57 <pangolin> Fuchs: we don't do that in Ubuntu
18:57:09 <pangolin> we don't distinguish teams, we are all members
18:57:34 <AlanBell> Fuchs: I wasn't suggesting linking them in some way, just that you are not planning on handing them out to any random person who asks
18:57:35 <Fuchs> pangolin: it's for pragmatic reasons, when a user comes in the general team channel, he would have a better possibility to see which person he should contact
18:57:54 * Pici agrees with AlanBell
18:58:07 <Fuchs> pangolin: example: if a user wants to suggest a news article, he should contact one of our ikhaya (that's our news portal) members. Giving this suggestion to one of our server guys is just a detour
18:58:15 <Fuchs> AlanBell: definitely not
18:58:25 <Fuchs> AlanBell: we have standards definied on how you can join one of the team
18:58:32 <AlanBell> great
18:58:33 <Pici> Then I'm fine with that.
18:58:37 <Fuchs> AlanBell: and I am also not a big fan of handing them to every new member who just joined
18:58:56 <oCean> good to hear there's a proper process in place.
18:58:59 <Fuchs> good
18:59:30 <AlanBell> ok, maybe we should vote on this to confirm the decision
18:59:37 <pangolin> Fuchs: I disagree, the user can ask and then be directed to the correct team/person. That user should not need to /whois to see where to get help. anyway i am against adding a cloak with the word ubuntu in it. if that does happen I am going to fight for an ubuntero cloak that was declined years ago by the ircc
19:00:29 <dax> pangolin: as in ubuntu/ubuntero/*?
19:00:33 <Myrtti> is there even a possible quorum?
19:00:34 <pangolin> maybe @ubuntu/helper cloak
19:00:38 <Fuchs> pangolin: it would just be an additional measure. I am unfortunately not aware of any history regarding ubuntero cloaks, but I think you should feel free to bring that up again if you want
19:00:45 <AlanBell> Myrtti: yes, with pleia2
19:00:49 <Myrtti> ah
19:01:10 <meetingology> Current voters: AlanBell Pici funkyHat pleia2
19:01:23 <pangolin> I know a few people in #ubuntu who might like to have a @ubuntu/helper cloak
19:01:58 <Pici> We're not talking about adding additional levels to the Ubuntu cloak namespace. We're talking about ubuntuusers.
19:02:20 <pangolin> yeah i am fine with the channel.
19:03:20 <AlanBell> #vote the IRCC agrees not to object to the #ubuntuusers GRF
19:03:20 <meetingology> Please vote on: the IRCC agrees not to object to the #ubuntuusers GRF
19:03:20 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
19:03:27 <AlanBell> +1
19:03:27 <meetingology> +1 received from AlanBell
19:03:38 <pleia2> +1
19:03:38 <meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
19:03:49 <Pici> +1
19:03:49 <meetingology> +1 received from Pici
19:04:17 <AlanBell> not sure funkyHat is awake
19:04:20 <AlanBell> #endvote
19:04:20 <meetingology> Voting ended on: the IRCC agrees not to object to the #ubuntuusers GRF
19:04:20 <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
19:04:20 <meetingology> Motion carried
19:04:26 <toddy> thank you all.
19:04:26 <Fuchs> Thank you very much
19:04:37 <MarkusH> thank you very much
19:04:47 <Fuchs> feel free to poke me if you need some further information or whatever
19:04:59 <dax> pleia2: I take it Ubuntu CC decided to delegate the decision to IRCC and isn't going to object in and of themselves?
19:05:01 <AlanBell> ok, thanks Fuchs
19:05:28 <pleia2> dax: IRC-based decisions arealways delegated to the IRCC, the CC only gets involved if it's escalated
19:05:35 <dax> pleia2: thanks
19:05:54 <christel> i must admit that i think it's pretty impressive that the ubuntu community is such that whilst the project's GRF would be entirely fine standing on it's own feet from a freenode pov, you have created an atmosphere in which people come and ask for your approval regardless
19:05:55 <AlanBell> dax: the CC was notified, and we considered the trademark implications
19:05:58 <christel> many ++'s!
19:06:19 <AlanBell> ok, we have a bunch of items on the agenda that we have not got to yet, but we are out of time
19:07:06 <AlanBell> I don't see any of them being urgent so I am intending to defer them to the next meeting in about 2 weeks, time to be discussed but probably not on Saturday morning
19:07:35 <AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
19:07:44 <AlanBell> anyone got any other pressing matter to raise?
19:08:25 <AlanBell> ok, thanks very much everyone
19:08:28 <AlanBell> #endmeeting