20120624

Meeting started by AlanBell at 17:59:59 UTC. The full logs are available at http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-24-17.59.log.html .

Meeting summary

  • Review last meetings action items
  • Welcome to the new IRCC member
  • Open items in the IRCC tracker
  • Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
    • bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia (AlanBell, 18:14:19)

    • bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group (AlanBell, 18:14:38)

  • alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lists
  • Review #ubuntu-ops-team (Quarterly)
  • Make #ubuntu-offtopic +r (discussion on the merits of this)
  • ubottu, uBOTu-fr and eir

LINK: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApW_s9q9E0zEdE9naVF4c0xjTUhpelZnZTFoYzZWNVE#gid=0 (AlanBell, 18:43:17) ACTION: m4v Pici AlanBell to look into adding ban removal to ubottu cababilities (AlanBell, 19:02:07)

  • Linking IRCC 'contact this team' in launchpad with osticket
  • Any Other Business

ACTION: pici to review masks for Ubuntu Member access to channels (AlanBell, 19:16:42)

Meeting ended at 19:30:38 UTC.

Votes

  • set up a #ubuntu-discuss channel for high quality on-topic non-support discussions of Ubuntu as a trial to be reviewed at a later date
    • For: 3 Against: 0 Abstained: 1

Action items

  • m4v Pici AlanBell to look into adding ban removal to ubottu cababilities

  • pici to review masks for Ubuntu Member access to channels

Action items, by person

  • AlanBell

    • m4v Pici AlanBell to look into adding ban removal to ubottu cababilities

  • m4v
    • m4v Pici AlanBell to look into adding ban removal to ubottu cababilities

  • Pici
    • m4v Pici AlanBell to look into adding ban removal to ubottu cababilities

    • pici to review masks for Ubuntu Member access to channels

People present (lines said)

  • AlanBell (129)

  • Pici (80)
  • IdleOne (56)

  • topyli (51)
  • jussi (33)
  • TheLordOfTime (22)

  • Tm_T (20)
  • oCean (18)
  • m4v (16)
  • meetingology (15)
  • DJones (9)
  • guntbert (5)
  • pleia2 (4)
  • ubottu (4)
  • Unit193 (3)

Full Log

  • 17:59:59 <AlanBell> #startmeeting IRCC

    17:59:59 <meetingology> Meeting started Sun Jun 24 17:59:59 2012 UTC. The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.

    17:59:59 <meetingology>

    17:59:59 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired

    18:00:00 <Unit193> Howdy.

    18:00:14 <AlanBell> hi all

    18:00:19 <AlanBell> who is here for the meeting?

    18:00:21 <topyli> hey

    18:01:00 <DJones> /

    18:01:01 <Pici> ♫

    18:01:03 <Pici> er, \o

    18:01:06 <IdleOne> o/

    18:01:59 <m4v> hi

    18:02:23 <jussi> o/ vaguely, crying baby

    18:03:24 <AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items

    18:03:52 <AlanBell> so actions from last time, lets see

    18:04:10 <AlanBell> alanbell to sort out removal of eir

    18:04:17 <AlanBell> #fail

    18:04:34 <AlanBell> so I was going to do this because uBOTu-fr was going to take over, but it was missing

    18:04:54 <AlanBell> lets come back to that whole question a bit later when we have a topic dedicated to it

    18:05:17 <AlanBell> #topic Welcome to the new IRCC member

    18:05:24 <AlanBell> welcome Tm_T \o/

    18:05:29 <IdleOne> Welcome and congrats Tm_T !

    18:05:35 <topyli> yay Tm_T !

    18:05:36 <Pici> Woo, Tm_T!

    18:05:42 <DJones> Congrats Tm_T

    18:05:48 <IdleOne> No new taxes!

    18:06:04 <topyli> finns love taxes, beware

    18:06:06 <AlanBell> the results of the election were announced by the Community Council the other day and Tm_T is now our 5th IRCC member

    18:06:57 <AlanBell> launchpad groups and channel access and suchlike has been set up

    18:07:25 <Pici> launch codes, etc.

    18:07:36 <AlanBell> if only

    18:07:39 <IdleOne> Pici: not the abort codes right?

    18:07:45 <AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker

    18:07:48 <pleia2> just a quick note, I added his expire time as the same as the rest of you, but that's just because it's not something we've discussed

    18:08:03 <pleia2> we (CC and IRCC) should probably pick that up at some point

    18:08:05 <AlanBell> pleia2: yeah, I saw that, thanks

    18:08:09 <Pici> Yep

    18:08:34 <AlanBell> pleia2: setting the expire time the same was something we had planned and stated a few times

    18:08:46 <topyli> hm, wasn't that in the initial announcement that we're looking for the missing member?

    18:08:49 <pleia2> even better

    18:09:02 <Pici> ooh, problem solved already? I like this.

    18:09:11 <pleia2> me too Smile :)

    18:09:17 <TheLordOfTime> heh

    18:09:19 <IdleOne> item closed.

    18:09:23 <jussi> too good to be true, watch it...

    18:09:35 <AlanBell> ok, so the tracker, we do have an open item in it relating to the user mcloy

    18:09:46 <AlanBell> I closed it once and it reopened Sad :(

    18:10:11 <AlanBell> and we have another email today relating to some kind of appeal

    18:10:22 <IdleOne> what is the issue exactly with mcloy?

    18:10:29 <IdleOne> or can we not discuss that here?

    18:10:30 <Pici> Which was sent to both lists, but we'll be taking it

    18:10:44 <AlanBell> so it was

    18:11:11 <topyli> i rejected the message to the irc-team list and accepted the one to the council

    18:11:33 <topyli> public vs private and all that

    18:11:37 <AlanBell> good stuff

    18:11:57 <Pici> topyli: oh, good, good.

    18:12:03 <AlanBell> Shano56 is the user involved in that appeal

    18:12:20 <topyli> personally i think it's being handled just fine by ops

    18:12:54 <AlanBell> IdleOne: I would rather not discuss individual stuff here as a general rule, just being open about what appeals are going on

    18:12:56 <Pici> I think we should just talk about it 'offline' (so to speak).

    18:13:20 <Pici> AlanBell: which is what I was trying to get at.

    18:13:27 <IdleOne> sounds good. the Shano56 thing I think was handled properly.

    18:13:52 <AlanBell> ok, so that is the tracker

    18:13:54 <AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council

    18:14:11 <AlanBell> no new bugs

    18:14:19 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia

    18:14:21 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500

    18:14:26 <AlanBell> lets come back to that one in a sec

    18:14:38 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group

    18:14:40 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541

    18:14:47 <AlanBell> Pici: have you had a poke at this one?

    18:15:16 <Pici> AlanBell: I did, and then I got terribly busy with work stuff. Keep it on my docket, I'll make some time to deal with it.

    18:15:23 <AlanBell> ok

    18:15:34 <AlanBell> #topic alignment of launchpad teams and channel access lists

    18:15:49 <AlanBell> I did some of this and sent a few mails to the lists about it

    18:15:56 <AlanBell> I ticked off the big channels

    18:16:18 <IdleOne> ticked off as in upset?

    18:16:25 <AlanBell> heh, hope not

    18:16:26 <Pici> as in marked the checkboxx.

    18:16:31 <IdleOne> ah, k.

    18:16:46 <AlanBell> then there was the IRCC election stuff and other things which distracted me

    18:17:03 <AlanBell> but I will continue with that and get it to a point where we can automate it

    18:17:22 <AlanBell> there was also a kubuntu council election which changed some kubuntu stuff

    18:17:43 <IdleOne> Congrats to jussi for being elected to Kubuntu Council

    18:17:46 <IdleOne> Smile :)

    18:17:51 <Pici> Grats Jussi!

    18:17:51 <AlanBell> yes indeed! 18:18:03 * jussi blushes and hides

    18:18:13 <topyli> Smile :)

    18:18:52 <AlanBell> any comments on the access list processing so far?

    18:19:04 <Pici> No issues from over here.

    18:19:54 <AlanBell> #topic Review #ubuntu-ops-team (Quarterly)

    18:20:22 <AlanBell> this is a standing item we insert quarterly

    18:20:47 <topyli> we've done this a couple of quarters now, and been generally happy. i think we could stop reviewing it

    18:20:48 <AlanBell> the #ubuntu-ops-team channel is an invitation only channel for operators and a few others who are invited

    18:20:56 <jussi> Pici mentioned about offtopic in there - do we want to talk about that?

    18:20:59 <topyli> that doesn't mean we shouldn't address any specific issues

    18:21:34 <Pici> knome, Unit193 and I had a good discussion the other day about offtopicness in -ops-team

    18:21:34 <AlanBell> jussi: sure

    18:21:46 <topyli> jussi: well, there are a couple of valid but somewhat contradicting views, so it deserves discussion

    18:22:47 <topyli> 1) offtopic stuff isn't coordination. 2) not all ops are in the same offtopic channels and thus will miss each other lolcats if they're not allowed in -ops-team

    18:22:50 <Pici> I had originally suggested to move the offtopicness into #ubuntu-offtopic, but there were problems with that suggestion, mainly that its very #ubuntu centric (Rather than #x/#k#/l etc). So the comprimise that we agreed on was to try to seed some of the good conversations that we have been having there into the various offtopic channels.

    18:23:58 <AlanBell> I am quite comfortable with the concept of #ubuntu-ops-team, I think it is really useful to separate that from the #ubuntu-ops channel

    18:23:59 <guntbert> seeding good conversations into ot channels sounds *very* good

    18:24:34 <topyli> AlanBell: absolutely. that's why i'm suggesting we stop reviewing its existance

    18:25:20 <Pici> But publicly reviewing anything that we may have brought up in there (that should be made public) isn't probably good.

    18:25:24 <Pici> er, s/isn't/is/

    18:26:03 <Tm_T> sorry for my late arrival

    18:26:09 <AlanBell> hi Tm_T

    18:26:19 <IdleOne> o/ Tm_T

    18:26:20 <topyli> hi Tm_T. welcome to the meeting and to the council Smile :)

    18:26:24 <Pici> Anyway, the point was to be conscious of the offtopicness, and try to bring it into our offtopic channels if the parties involved are there as well.

    18:26:51 <AlanBell> does anyone think we should review the #ubuntu-ops-team channel in a further three months, or not bother as per topyli's proposal?

    18:26:53 <jussi> the point of the review is to make sure it isnt becoming clique and being abused

    18:26:56 <Pici> And again, this isn't a blanket ban on being able to socialize in there, just something to keep in the back of your head.

    18:27:38 <topyli> i think jussi and Pici are saying the same thing

    18:27:39 <IdleOne> AlanBell: I think keeping the review process is a good thing and won't hurt.

    18:27:59 <AlanBell> topyli: I am thinking that 5 minutes per quarter isn't a big deal, but we should focus on how we are using it rather than whether it should exist

    18:28:11 <topyli> yes

    18:28:19 <IdleOne> Will serve as a reminder to us to try and keep the channel on topic as much as possible.

    18:28:20 <Tm_T> that

    18:28:45 <AlanBell> ok lets move on, and I will swap the next two agenda items

    18:28:49 <jussi> AlanBell: ++

    18:28:55 <AlanBell> #topic Make #ubuntu-offtopic +r (discussion on the merits of this)

    18:29:15 <AlanBell> this was something ikonia asked us to think about

    18:29:37 <TheLordOfTime> i'm not on the ircc, but would ikonia care to explain the background of this?

    18:29:39 <Pici> We breifly weighed the pros and cons, but we suggested that he add it to the meeting agenda anyway.

    18:29:44 <AlanBell> as one possible way to improve conversations in -offtopic and stop a little bit of random abuse

    18:30:02 <IdleOne> making the channel +r will make it more difficult for the #ubuntu ops to direct new users to the channel when needed

    18:30:16 <TheLordOfTime> i agree with IdleOne on this one

    18:30:25 <TheLordOfTime> a majority of #ubuntu is unregistered

    18:30:34 <jussi> whatever happened to #ubuntu-discuss? wasnt it part of the master plan?

    18:30:37 <AlanBell> I asked ikonia to figure out how much of #ubuntu-offtopic was unregistered

    18:30:52 <Pici> jussi: still up in the air.

    18:30:58 <topyli> there is some obvious merit. less random noise, and also easier bans Smile :)

    18:31:03 <IdleOne> meaning, not only do we have to explain that they are off topic and to change channel but then explain how to register. if the channel is open then we can take the registration "support" and help the user in -ot

    18:31:15 <TheLordOfTime> ^ that

    18:31:24 <Tm_T> I don't like restricting -ot nor necessarily the idea of extra -discuss

    18:31:28 <Pici> IdleOne: I think we already have enough pain when trying to direct folks to ##java, and simiular channels.

    18:31:34 <topyli> IdleOne: good point

    18:31:40 <DJones> There's a lot of occasions when new users are directed to -ot rather than #u when they want just general info, they're unlikely to be registered (new to IRC etc), which will cause confusion & potentially push them away from ubuntu

    18:32:01 <IdleOne> Pici: in #u you mean? yes, why add to it by restricting -ot?

    18:32:18 <Pici> IdleOne: Exactly.

    18:32:22 <IdleOne> ok Smile :)

    18:32:29 <guntbert> to my eyes "abuse" has diminished significantly - there have even been some quality discussions

    18:33:10 <Pici> Well yeah, but only when we're not scaring off our -offtopic operators Wink ;)

    18:33:29 <Pici> guntbert: but seriously, I agree.

    18:33:52 <Tm_T> I have my hope on leading by example (not by me necessarily)

    18:33:59 <IdleOne> -1 to setting -ot +r

    18:34:23 <Pici> And the folks who are determined to troll aren't going to be deterred by it being set +r, just the folks who want to casually chat.

    18:34:52 <IdleOne> also, sometimes a two hour chat about kittens is quality

    18:34:57 <AlanBell> ok, it sounded quite an appealing suggestion to me, but those are good points about directing new people to it

    18:35:21 <topyli> i'll say -1 too. -ot is an old channel and hasn't really become any *worse* over the years. this whispers to me not to rock the boat

    18:35:26 <AlanBell> but I do think that new people should be directed to somewhere to discuss Ubuntu rather than kittens

    18:35:30 <Tm_T> it would just make -ot even more of a place for limited circle instead of whole community

    18:35:38 <AlanBell> (or other small fluffy/feathery creatures)

    18:36:15 <topyli> AlanBell: i think the lolcat discussions most often pause when real ubuntu discussion is starting to take place

    18:36:15 * TheLordOfTime agrees with Tm_T's view

    18:36:20 <IdleOne> AlanBell: We discuss Ubuntu a lot in -ot, just that some people take great offense to Ubuntu being put down. e.g. UNITY SUCKS!

    18:36:44 <guntbert> AlanBell: as long as one discussion doesn't drown the other, I see no problem with discussing pets

    18:36:55 <Pici> A UNITY SUCKS discussion is neither a) constructive nor b) something that 99% of the folks there want to discuss.

    18:36:58 * AlanBell is all in favour of chicken related discussions

    18:37:00 <IdleOne> many of the people who start out with that sort of comment about Ubuntu end up having excellent points

    18:37:30 <DJones> Possibly a different thought process needs to be gone through from #u etc when directing people to -ot, at times it possibly gets used to redirect non-coc comliant conversations to to -ot rather than just asking them to stop the conversation all-together, not by ops, but by general #u users

    18:37:51 <topyli> there's very good unity criticism there as well, worthy of being directed to #ubuntu-desktop or similar really Smile :)

    18:37:53 <Pici> IdleOne: true, but then again we've heard most of the arguments for/against it already. but lets not get too sidetracked.

    18:38:06 <IdleOne> Pici: I hear you

    18:38:27 <AlanBell> yeah, this item was about setting it +r, and it seems on balance that isn't going to be a good idea, so lets not do that then

    18:38:33 <Pici> DJones: I've been pretty quick to point that out to folks who mash !ot instead of telling people to stop.

    18:38:42 <IdleOne> Anyway, I want to be able to send new Ubuntu/IRC users to -ot without having to send them to #freenode first to get help registering

    18:38:43 <guntbert> DJones: so we should decide if !ot is to be used or some other factoid (in #u)

    18:39:00 <Pici> AlanBell: agreed.

    18:39:20 <AlanBell> ok, so moving on once more

    18:39:22 <AlanBell> )

    18:39:25 <AlanBell> #topic ubottu, uBOTu-fr and eir

    18:39:27 <Pici> Lets try to get through the rest of the agenda, and then we can move back to the State of Offtopic afterwards if we have time.

    18:39:37 <AlanBell> so, bots

    18:39:51 <Pici> yep

    18:40:06 <Pici> can't live with'em, oh... wait, thats somethinjg else...

    18:40:13 <topyli> eir database is growing by the minute, as ikonia reminded us today in -irc-council

    18:40:18 <AlanBell> I was going to get eir removed so we could focus on uBOTu-fr

    18:40:54 <AlanBell> but uBOTu-fr was missing in action, and m4v raised some points about the test suite not passing

    18:41:00 <IdleOne> AlanBell: do we have a working ubotu-fr to use in #ubuntu yet?

    18:41:07 <Pici> Sounds like we might not.

    18:41:41 <AlanBell> I grabbed a copy of the source today to have a look at what it does

    18:41:46 <IdleOne> then I say we hold off until there is a known working replacement for eir

    18:41:48 <Tm_T> I'd say first u-fr up to shape and then drop eir

    18:42:14 <IdleOne> eir is not perfect but it is better than nothing for now

    18:42:17 <m4v> I don't want to maintain a supybot fork for stuff that should be in a plugin.

    18:42:20 <Pici> I think it might be good to trial u-fr (once it gets back up to spec) in some of our other high traffic channels

    18:43:04 <oCean> We should not start with trials with any bot, until we have a agreed on set of requirements

    18:43:17 <AlanBell> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApW_s9q9E0zEdE9naVF4c0xjTUhpelZnZTFoYzZWNVE#gid=0

    18:43:20 <Pici> oCean: I thought we already had a list somewhere

    18:43:21 <AlanBell> requirements

    18:43:31 <Unit193> May see if you can get some of that into a plugin, and general stuff into an existing fork.

    18:44:19 <oCean> Pici: we had a list of bugs for eir, the link AlanBell posted is where I started a little while ago

    18:44:45 <oCean> This could be where to start from. Decide which are the Must/Could/Should haves etc

    18:44:55 <AlanBell> yeah, I like the list oCean

    18:45:17 <m4v> well, there's the stuff we wrote for the next bt http://ubottu.com/devel/wiki/Spec/Bantracker

    18:46:04 <oCean> m4v: yeah, that is another point. The BT

    18:46:18 <oCean> we should not see those to apart from each other, is what I think

    18:46:23 <IdleOne> the requirements look good to me

    18:46:53 <oCean> those two*

    18:46:56 <m4v> oCean: another? isn't the BT the point we're discussing?

    18:47:21 <oCean> m4v: we have focussed on bot functionality a lot

    18:47:43 <m4v> there's the idea of using ubotu-fr because our bt doesn't have automatic removal of bans

    18:47:59 <oCean> for example, we started with eir, while we knew there was no integration with the BT

    18:48:21 <AlanBell> yeah, I am not sure why we don't just write ban expiry into the existing ubottu channel plugin

    18:48:26 <AlanBell> or a separate plugin

    18:48:40 <oCean> Yes, I'm all for that, AlanBell

    18:49:11 <oCean> however, I don't have the knowledge/skill to do that

    18:49:59 <m4v> AlanBell: ubottu bantracker plugin, ubotu-fr channel plugin is a rewrite of a supybot core plugin.

    18:50:16 <AlanBell> yeah, I saw that

    18:50:24 <Pici> I think we have enough python/supybot skill here to make that happen, but the issue was that we sort of felt that the current Bantracker system needed a lot of love in various places to bring it up to spec.

    18:50:50 <IdleOne> which m4v gave it did he not?

    18:50:56 <oCean> Pici: Indeed, it still does

    18:50:58 <m4v> well, I have been looking how to add automatic removal in ubottu, I think it can be done, but are we going to have ubottu +o all the time?

    18:51:17 <oCean> m4v: eir isn't +o all the time

    18:51:17 <Pici> I personally don't have a problem with that, as long as she doesn't go haywire.

    18:51:18 <AlanBell> m4v: maybe, or can it just talk to chanserv?

    18:51:22 <IdleOne> m4v: ubottu only needs +o when setting the modes

    18:51:44 <Pici> AlanBell: chanserv can't unban people.

    18:51:54 <Pici> Well, other than yourself.

    18:51:56 <AlanBell> orly

    18:52:04 <m4v> ok, so needs to request op when needed.

    18:52:04 <TheLordOfTime> yep

    18:52:39 <IdleOne> AlanBell: something about accountability and not abusing chanserv to do nasty things

    18:52:40 <Pici> Being opped all the time is less noise that opping up, unbanning, and deopping.

    18:53:01 <AlanBell> ah, ok, unban is only for self

    18:53:03 <m4v> Pici: is also easier to implement, that's why I asked

    18:53:10 <Pici> m4v: right.

    18:53:16 <IdleOne> I would be fine with ubottu holding @

    18:53:22 <AlanBell> any downside to always being @

    18:53:35 <Pici> oblivious people ask it questions.

    18:53:36 <Tm_T> more private messages

    18:53:38 <Unit193> Questions may be directed directly more.

    18:53:41 <Pici> like we get with the floodbots.

    18:53:56 <TheLordOfTime> AlanBell: not unless the bot starts spitting out random errors

    18:53:57 <TheLordOfTime> ;P

    18:54:02 <AlanBell> ubottu: do people talk to you already?

    18:54:02 <ubottu> Error: I haven't seen people.

    18:54:03 <ubottu> AlanBell: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent Smile :)

    18:54:06 <oCean> I don't think eir opping and deopping is too much noise for anyone

    18:54:06 <Tm_T> have to be afk now, sorry

    18:54:07 <m4v> AlanBell: well, maybe the channel's "temperature"?

    18:54:43 <IdleOne> wouldn't be any more noisy then eir

    18:54:57 <guntbert> m4v: she cannot get into an argument, so will not raise the temperature, I guess

    18:55:03 <DJones> I can't see a problem with ubottu being +o other than spam from users, most regulars know that ubottu is a bot and will normally advise users of that when they see somebody speaking directly to her

    18:55:20 <m4v> guntbert: I guess so :P

    18:56:08 <AlanBell> it seems fine to me, I can't imagine any security concerns about it, if someone can impersonate ubottu then they can cause a similar amount of nusiance either way

    18:56:13 <oCean> Getting into the details already Sad :(

    18:56:40 <Pici> Why don't we see how feasible it is to make ubottu's current bantracker handling unbanning (and all that jazz), and then we can see how we want to handle the opping status.

    18:56:48 <AlanBell> yup

    18:56:50 <m4v> oh right, I'll get ops in #ubuntu through ubottu >D j/k

    18:57:02 <AlanBell> :O

    18:57:21 <IdleOne> I still don't know why you don't have ops in #u

    18:57:45 <AlanBell> so m4v, want to have a crack at implementing that? I am happy to help a bit and I am sure others will too

    18:57:56 <Pici> As am I.

    18:59:07 <m4v> AlanBell: I already started looking at it, it will be a hack, but meh.

    18:59:20 <Pici> Isn't everything Wink ;)

    18:59:21 <DJones> If ubottu fell off freenode and somebody was alert enough to spot it, could they /nick to ubottu and gain ops in the 30 seconds before nick enforce took priority

    18:59:34 <Pici> no

    18:59:41 <m4v> DJones: nope, it would need to identify

    18:59:43 <IdleOne> not without knowing the nickserv pass

    18:59:55 <IdleOne> which is not HUNTER2

    18:59:58 <IdleOne> I tried.

    19:00:08 <topyli> yeah i changed it the other day

    19:00:09 <Pici> The enteries in the access list are account names, not nicks.

    19:00:09 <TheLordOfTime> lol

    19:00:16 <jussi> its not 123456789 either :P

    19:00:29 <Pici> jussi: thats the same password I have on my luggage Surprised :o

    19:00:31 <DJones> That sounds like it would restrict any 3rd party potential for abuse anyway

    19:01:39 <AlanBell> lets do some actions

    19:01:41 <topyli> ok, so eir stays and a mega ubottu hackfest is commensing. we can then retire eir tuesday by lunchtime? Smile :)

    19:01:58 <oCean> (:

    19:02:07 <AlanBell> #action m4v Pici AlanBell to look into adding ban removal to ubottu cababilities

    19:02:07 * meetingology m4v Pici AlanBell to look into adding ban removal to ubottu cababilities

    19:02:14 <AlanBell> by tuesday lunchtime

    19:02:23 <topyli> Smile :)

    19:02:55 <AlanBell> #agreed ubottu can hold +o in channels where ban expiry will be used

    19:03:01 <m4v> ok, you guys never took a look at bantracker code? welcome to the madhouse.

    19:03:28 <Pici> m4v: no, I've already lost my mind looking at it a few times before.

    19:03:31 <jussi> bantracker is a huge mess

    19:03:38 <topyli> by lunch is not realistic?

    19:03:47 <IdleOne> Why can't something new be used in its place?

    19:03:48 <Pici> It always has been, lets blame Seveas, hes not really heere.

    19:04:02 <Pici> IdleOne: because we can't seem to do that fast enough for anyone's liking.

    19:04:04 <jussi> topyli: give them till dinner :P

    19:04:17 <AlanBell> this is just adding ban removal, how hard can it be?

    19:04:25 <AlanBell> #topic Linking IRCC 'contact this team' in launchpad with osticket

    19:04:25 <TheLordOfTime> AlanBell: on a timer, HARD

    19:04:28 <IdleOne> Pici: sucks to be them.

    19:04:28 <topyli> ok fine, volunteers and all

    19:04:32 <m4v> IdleOne: something new would take a lot of more time.

    19:04:45 <AlanBell> so who added this suggestion?

    19:04:49 <topyli> i did

    19:04:51 <oCean> What is the progress with the BT, can both bot and bt developments combined?

    19:05:01 <IdleOne> m4v: I understand that but it would be better than hacking stuff together and hope it doesn't explode

    19:05:03 <oCean> oh

    19:05:07 <oCean> nvm

    19:05:12 <Pici> I though the 'contact this team' thing just sent all the team members an email.

    19:05:25 <AlanBell> it does, but it seems we can direct it to a specific email address

    19:05:30 <TheLordOfTime> |^ that

    19:05:30 <topyli> this item is about avoiding mail via launchpad in our inboxen and into the ticket system

    19:05:43 <Pici> topyli: that sounds like a much better idea to me.

    19:05:53 <Pici> can I send all my own mail there too? Wink ;)

    19:05:55 <jussi> I like this idea

    19:06:03 <jussi> Pici: no :P

    19:06:06 <Pici> darn.

    19:06:09 <AlanBell> A confirmation message has been sent to 'ircc-appeals@ubottu.com'. Follow the instructions in that message to confirm the new contact address for this team.

    19:06:10 <topyli> heh

    19:06:15 <AlanBell> hmm

    19:06:34 <AlanBell> ok, we have a new appeal to deal with Wink ;)

    19:06:43 <topyli> denied!

    19:07:28 <Pici> topyli: you need to actually read the appeal message first Wink ;)

    19:07:28 <jussi> Noooo!!! Sad :(

    19:07:37 <AlanBell> ok, so we can finish that off later, but it seems like a good idea

    19:07:53 <AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business

    19:07:56 <Pici> cool cool fcool

    19:07:59 <topyli> yeah we can handle it ourselves

    19:08:52 <AlanBell> does anyone else have any other topics they would like to raise?

    19:09:15 <jussi> argh, I had somethign, but Ive forgotten

    19:09:21 <IdleOne> AlanBell: We have been having issues with certain persistent people trolling our less active channels that have hardly any access for the ops team. Would it be possible to create a spec ops team account and add this account to those smaller channels?

    19:09:31 <jussi> no doubt it will come to me after the meeting

    19:09:43 <Pici> IdleOne: Isn't that what the ircc account is for?

    19:10:00 <IdleOne> Pici: there are only 5 of you and they seem to know your schedules

    19:10:08 <topyli> jussi: it always does doesn't it Smile :)

    19:10:13 <AlanBell> some don't have the ubuntuirccouncil account in the access list (-beginners is the example that springs to mind)

    19:10:45 <Pici> IdleOne: Is freenode-staff on those access lists?

    19:10:49 <IdleOne> AlanBell: which brings me to my next suggestion make it mandatory that IRCC be in all channel access list in the namespace

    19:11:03 <IdleOne> Pici: some but staff is not always available either

    19:11:26 <jussi> IdleOne: can you name specific time when this has happened?

    19:11:50 <Tm_T> back

    19:11:50 <AlanBell> right now it is suggested that we are in the access lists, and we can get staff assistance if we are not and need to be

    19:11:55 <TheLordOfTime> oh, i have one other thing of business to bring up, when you're done with this issue you're discussing.

    19:11:57 <TheLordOfTime> regarding access lists.

    19:12:03 <TheLordOfTime> (you just reminded me AlanBell)

    19:12:06 <IdleOne> jussi:19:00 to 21:00 my time

    19:12:17 <IdleOne> UTC-5

    19:12:45 <topyli> i would enjoy being sure without checking that ubuntuirccouncil is on the access list of any channel with an emergency

    19:13:25 <IdleOne> jussi: the times vary

    19:13:31 <TheLordOfTime> there are a few channels which have Ubuntu Members in their access lists. Given that freenode has been starting a policy of secondary-cloaks being project.accountname rather than project.role.accountname, Ubuntu Members with newer secondary cloaks are not able to have access to channels which use the primary-cloak, and old-secondary-cloak access formats

    19:13:53 <TheLordOfTime> i.e. if we see the -irc access list, you see ubuntu/member/* and ubuntu.member.*

    19:14:00 <IdleOne> point is that channels are being harassed for far longer then should be allowed IMO

    19:14:06 <jussi> TheLordOfTime: ahh yes, those need fixing

    19:14:19 <Pici> I thought we updated those somewhere...

    19:14:28 <TheLordOfTime> jussi: indeed, and preferably globally, there's a few other channels still having that

    19:14:34 <AlanBell> so what would be the correct mask?

    19:14:48 <TheLordOfTime> AlanBell: for newer secondary cloak formats (as an example, mine),

    19:14:51 <Pici> ubuntu/* and ubuntu.* should cover everything

    19:14:59 <TheLordOfTime> ^ that

    19:15:24 <TheLordOfTime> or rather for the secondary format...

    19:15:27 <TheLordOfTime> */ubuntu.*

    19:15:36 <Pici> er, right

    19:16:09 <AlanBell> Pici: can you take that one, needs fixing in -meeting and -irc for starters

    19:16:17 <Pici> sure

    19:16:21 <AlanBell> I will only get the mask wrong

    19:16:42 <AlanBell> #action pici to review masks for Ubuntu Member access to channels 19:16:42 * meetingology pici to review masks for Ubuntu Member access to channels

    19:17:03 <jussi> Id also like to have the discussion/decision about #ubuntu-discus

    19:17:06 <jussi> err

    19:17:13 <jussi> #ubuntu-discuss

    19:17:29 <jussi> #ubuntu-discus could be fun though Big Grin :)

    19:17:51 <AlanBell> IdleOne: can we start by finding channels that lack ubuntuirccouncil and see if we can just fix them one by one?

    19:18:16 <AlanBell> maybe search with alis for #ubuntu-* having more than 10 people in the channel and check the access lists

    19:18:22 <IdleOne> AlanBell: sure but it won't help solve the problem. What i am suggesting is lightning the load for the IRCC

    19:19:05 <topyli> i'm still a bit sceptical about -discuss. we have topical channels and -ot

    19:19:28 <AlanBell> having a second account for op access across other channels is a bit of a big topic for the any other business section IdleOne Smile :)

    19:19:43 <Tm_T> is

    19:20:00 <jussi> topyli: I think it is a very topical channel - its for discussion of specifically ubuntu related things that dont fit into #ubuntu's supportarea

    19:20:05 <Tm_T> agree with AlanBell, needs some preparation that discussion

    19:20:15 <IdleOne> AlanBell: indeed. I brought it up, you folks can shoot the idea around and make a decision. let us know at some point before December Smile :)

    19:20:15 <AlanBell> I like the idea of #ubuntu-discuss as a place for on-topic non support discussions

    19:20:43 <IdleOne> isn't that what -ot is for?

    19:20:45 <AlanBell> and somewhere that Ubuntu marketing materials from LoCos and Canonical can direct people to

    19:20:46 <jussi> ubuntu in the news, improvements to ubuntu, etc etc

    19:20:47 <Tm_T> I like the idea of #ubuntu-offtopic as aplace for all non-support discussion that is suitable to our community spirit

    19:20:50 <IdleOne> on topic non support

    19:21:01 <topyli> jussi: that's -ot IMO

    19:21:03 <jussi> IdleOne: no, -ot is a break room type area, for just relaxing

    19:21:16 <AlanBell> so why is it called "off topic"?

    19:21:24 <IdleOne> jussi: but it can also be for cool ubuntu news and stuff

    19:21:29 <topyli> jussi: i disagree Smile :)

    19:21:35 <Pici> I'd like to see some folks willing to staff -discuss that will actually be able to answer questions before we set it up

    19:21:39 <jussi> topyli: topic says so :P

    19:21:49 <Tm_T> AlanBell: good question, similar channels on other communities are called cafes etc

    19:21:52 <jussi> Pici: hrm?

    19:21:52 <topyli> AlanBell: historical reasons. it was created to move non-support away from #ubuntu back in 2005

    19:22:01 <Pici> i.e. not all us ops are knee deep in Ubuntu to know enough to respond to everything .

    19:22:18 <AlanBell> Tm_T: yes, a community cafe or something sounds about right

    19:22:30 <topyli> forums have a community cafe

    19:22:39 <topyli> so that would fit

    19:22:41 <Tm_T> that's pretty much what our -ot is

    19:22:42 <IdleOne> it sounds like another off topic channel

    19:22:43 <Pici> Isn't that what community-team is for?

    19:22:48 * topyli is defensive of -ot Smile :)

    19:23:05 <Tm_T> Pici: good point

    19:23:07 <jussi> Pici: nah, community team is for jono to organise calls :P

    19:23:11 <AlanBell> ok, so maybe community cafe is more what offtopic is

    19:23:23 <Pici> No.. thats what he uses it for, but its also where the community teams coordinate things

    19:23:52 <AlanBell> Canonical sent out a bunch of emails a while back relating to ubuntu phones or Ubuntu for Android asking people to "join the conversation in #ubuntu"

    19:23:59 <topyli> my sauna is getting cold Sad :(

    19:24:08 <AlanBell> which I had to point out to them was not really what #ubuntu was all about

    19:24:18 <jussi> AlanBell: exactly the type of discussion we want in -discuss.

    19:24:36 <Tm_T> I wish -ot would be in shape for that kind of use

    19:25:08 <Pici> A lot of people use -ot as a place to relax, they don't want to have to deal with that sort of stuff in there.

    19:25:09 <topyli> ubuntu phones an ubuntu for android have nothing to do with the community afaik, and nobody knows nothing about them...

    19:25:13 <AlanBell> and no, I don't think #ubuntu-offtopic is an appropriate place to direct people to, partly because the name is weird for that kind of thing, and partly because the conversations are a bit random at times

    19:25:38 <jussi> I really think that -ot isnt for that, its not somewhere we send people for that type of discussion. its not that it cant happen in -ot, but that its nice to have a dedicates area

    19:25:39 <AlanBell> topyli: not entirely true, but anyhow, this is a general point about marketing Ubuntu

    19:25:42 <Tm_T> topyli: ...so best option is no channel in that case

    19:26:02 <Pici> So, instead of going around in circles.... do we want to trial this?

    19:26:03 <topyli> well, canonical can set one up

    19:26:04 <Pici> or?

    19:26:17 <AlanBell> sabdfl's response was that perhaps they should direct people to askubuntu.com and not IRC at all

    19:26:19 <topyli> Tm_T: iirc #ubuntuone is working fine

    19:26:21 <jussi> Pici: I would like to trial it

    19:26:28 <AlanBell> I would like to trial it

    19:26:46 <jussi> AlanBell: you guys want to have a vote? Wink ;)

    19:26:49 <Pici> AlanBell: unfortunately, sabdfl has a bit of a history of not exactly getting what we do.

    19:26:54 <Tm_T> topyli: yup, because there's canonical folks answering

    19:27:00 <topyli> we can trial it, see if people will join when encouraged, and what becomes of it

    19:27:08 <topyli> (-discuss i mean)

    19:27:28 <Pici> Worst thing that happens is that its a bust and we end up forwarding it to somewhere else.

    19:27:37 <topyli> yep

    19:27:48 <AlanBell> ok, lets have a little vote on this

    19:28:05 <Tm_T> true, but I'm bit worried of the idea that Canonical points people to us and we have to clean up the mess, to put it bluntly

    19:28:08 <jussi> ops should also direct people who have that kind of discussion in #ubuntu to there as well

    19:28:23 <AlanBell> #vote set up a #ubuntu-discuss channel for high quality on-topic non-support discussions of Ubuntu as a trial to be reviewed at a later date

    19:28:23 <meetingology> Please vote on: set up a #ubuntu-discuss channel for high quality on-topic non-support discussions of Ubuntu as a trial to be reviewed at a later date

    19:28:23 <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)

    19:28:28 <DJones> What area's of the community would you staff it from? core ops, members, canonical employee's, community-team etc?

    19:28:40 <topyli> +1

    19:28:40 <meetingology> +1 received from topyli

    19:28:42 <AlanBell> #voters AlanBell Pici topyli Tm_T

    19:28:42 <meetingology> Current voters: AlanBell Pici Tm_T topyli

    19:28:44 <jussi> DJones: all of the above ?:D

    19:28:51 <AlanBell> +1

    19:28:51 <meetingology> +1 received from AlanBell

    19:28:51 <Pici> +1

    19:28:51 <meetingology> +1 received from Pici

    19:29:03 <DJones> jussi: Agreed, it would have to be a mixture

    19:29:09 <Tm_T> +0

    19:29:09 <meetingology> +0 received from Tm_T

    19:29:13 <topyli> i suspect jussi would like to set it up Smile :)

    19:29:14 <AlanBell> #endvote

    19:29:14 <meetingology> Voting ended on: set up a #ubuntu-discuss channel for high quality on-topic non-support discussions of Ubuntu as a trial to be reviewed at a later date

    19:29:14 <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1

    19:29:14 <meetingology> Motion carried

    19:29:21 <Pici> I can think of a few folks that would at least be willing to idle there and answer questions

    19:30:00 <IdleOne> I'm still not sure about the idea but I'll be idle in there and happy o help out

    19:30:02 <AlanBell> great

    19:30:03 <topyli> would be nice to lure some canonical staff there

    19:30:07 <AlanBell> ok, any more stuff?

    19:30:16 <AlanBell> five

    19:30:18 <AlanBell> four

    19:30:20 <AlanBell> three

    19:30:21 <AlanBell> two

    19:30:21 <Pici> Is someone willing to send out a mail to the list so that the rest of the folks not present today will know about it?

    19:30:28 <Pici> or... will the meeting notes be enoughj

    19:30:31 <AlanBell> yeah, I will do that

    19:30:35 <AlanBell> one

    19:30:36 <Pici> AlanBell: great, thaks.

    19:30:38 <AlanBell> #endmeeting

Generated by MeetBot 0.1.5 (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology)

MeetingLogs/IRCC/20120624 (last edited 2012-06-24 20:30:57 by alanbell)