09:03   sistpoty        anyone here for motu-meeting?
09:04   LaserJock       so... who's running the show today?
09:04   ajmitch you are
09:04   ajmitch or sistpoty
09:04   ajmitch there only seems to be a couple of people here
09:04   sistpoty        I'd prefer if LaserJock would do it ;)
09:04   sistpoty        (am just about eating dinner *g*)
09:07   LaserJock       well, I'll have to leave in less then an hour so we need to get with it
09:07   LaserJock       the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
09:08   ajmitch ok, SRU process
09:08   ajmitch sistpoty: you have the floor, let's get moving
009:08  sistpoty        has everybody followed the mails to -motu and read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Processes/SRURedone?
09:08   sistpoty        if not, please do so ;)
09:09   sistpoty        well... imo it takes way too much time until a update even hits proposed...
09:09   sistpoty        on the wiki-page, I've tried to make some proposals what can be fixed
09:10   sistpoty        but it might be a good thing if somebody *not* from the sru-team would make comments as well (as it's sometime hard to see problems if you're involved on one end)
09:10   sistpoty        so anyone some idea how to improve the sru-process?
09:11   LaserJock       well, the biggest problem, IMO, is how many people it has to pass
09:11   ajmitch whoever is last to approve the package (in the SRU team) should upload it
09:11   LaserJock       ajmitch: +1
09:11   ajmitch rather than it being approved & sitting there
09:11   sistpoty        ajmitch: if the last person is crimsun, we are already doing it that way ;)
09:11   ajmitch good
09:11   LaserJock       we get delayed everytime it goes from  1 queue to another
09:11   ajmitch but it doesn't always happen
09:11   ajmitch eg libnss-ldap
09:12   sistpoty        ajmitch: so you propose to also upload stuff that have a motu as assignee?
09:12   ajmitch yes
09:12   sistpoty        ah
09:12   ajmitch it reduces delays
09:12   ajmitch the person approving will already have the source there to look at
09:12   ajmitch so uploading won't be a burden
09:12   LaserJock       I think as far as MOTU, having the last motu-sru voter upload and having a good system for displaying what's in -proposed
09:13   LaserJock       the biggest delay has been ubuntu-archive
09:13   sistpoty        LaserJock: yes
09:13   LaserJock       but that's not really in our control too much and sounds like it's getting worked on
09:13   sistpoty        LaserJock: FWIW Mithrandir is open to suggestions about reducing the checks ubuntu-archive is doing
09:13   sistpoty        would that be an option?
09:14   LaserJock       I think it would be good
09:14   LaserJock       I think he should basically just check versioning
09:14   LaserJock       and even that shouldn't be too bad if it goes through 3 motu-sru
09:14   sistpoty        +1 here as well, at least for -proposed
09:15   LaserJock       like I said in my email, getting into -proposed should be super easy
09:15   sistpoty        ok... any other opinions what we should improve for sru?
09:15   sistpoty        any objections to LaserJock proposal?
09:16   sistpoty        ok, if noone cries out loud, I'd call that a decision ;)
09:16   ajmitch good
09:16   ajmitch NEXT!
09:17   sistpoty        release schedules... me again
09:17   LaserJock       Release schedules (sistpoty)
09:17   ajmitch can we decide on this now?
09:17   ajmitch we have feature freeze on the 8th, what does this mean for universe?
09:17   ajmitch last time we had universe upstream version freeze at beta freeze (iirc)
09:18   sistpoty        ajmitch: imo we should decide now... we're overdue to get them listed on feistyreleaseschedule
09:18   ajmitch and no new packages at feature freeze
09:18   ajmitch which meant everything on REVU had to be in by FF
09:18   sistpoty        there was one mail from crimsun with pretty good proposals for dates... I'll look that one up
09:18   LaserJock       ok, dholbach's original proposal was keeping UVF same as Main and FF one week after Main FF
09:18   ajmitch LaserJock: that can't be right
09:19   ajmitch UVF is on the same day as feature freeze
09:19   ajmitch I didn't think we'd have such an early UVF
=== ajmitch notes that this is related to the universe QA point
09:19   LaserJock       well, I swear UVF and FF weren't the same day but that's what the wiki page says
09:20   ajmitch right
09:20   ajmitch for edgy, we had UVF & no new packages at beta freeze
09:20   LaserJock       March 15th in this case
09:20   ajmitch we also had an active UVF team that could do approvals
09:20   sistpoty        ah... found the mail: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2006-December/001103.html
09:20   ajmitch which needs to be sorted
09:21   LaserJock       I seriously think it depends on how hard the freeze is going to be
09:21   LaserJock       in Edgy we had to get approval for *every* upload after Beta Freeze didn't we?
09:22   sistpoty        that would slowed us down pretty much, right?
09:22   LaserJock       yeah
09:23   LaserJock       if we are going to have that hard of a freeze I'd like to delay it
09:23   LaserJock       if UVF and FF mean just that I'm fine
09:23   LaserJock       but if UVF/FF effectively cut off any more development I'm not so fine
09:23   sistpoty        well... for UVF it might be good to know what debian is/will be doing... ajmitch?
09:25   ajmitch sistpoty: hah
09:25   ajmitch funny
09:25   ajmitch "etch will release"
09:25   ajmitch no firm dates yet, I heard rumours of mid-feb
09:26   LaserJock       it seems like etch will be too late for us to re-merge all the new upstreams that are likely to hit unstable
09:26   sistpoty        ajmitch: oh, nice... we should put UVF definitely before the release of etch
09:26   ajmitch LaserJock: no, we did *not* need approval for every upload after beta freeze, but after RC
09:26   LaserJock       ah RC
09:26   ajmitch it was only for a week or two
09:26   ajmitch not 5-6 weeks
09:27   LaserJock       well, it was when I was going to upload some bug fixes I think
09:27   sistpoty        ok, let's go over the unique dates... UVF
09:28   LaserJock       I think we should keep UVF with Main
09:28   sistpoty        is Feb 8 okay, sooner or later?
09:28   sistpoty        anyone else?
=== ajmitch doesn't like it, but oh well
09:28   ajmitch we need to freeze some time
09:28   LaserJock       ajmitch: what you prefer?
09:28   sistpoty        hehe
=== tsmithe doesn't have enough experience to have an opinion
09:29   LaserJock       we need to get merges done and out the door
09:29   ajmitch yes
09:29   ajmitch it just means approval for everything new after that
09:29   ajmitch & also clearing up REVU by the 8th
09:29   LaserJock       yes
09:29   LaserJock       no
09:29   LaserJock       that's FF
09:29   sistpoty        ajmitch: nope... UVF != FF
09:29   LaserJock       I propose FF be later
09:29   sistpoty        LaserJock: same here
09:29   LaserJock       UVF same to get merges done and get sort of settled in
09:29   LaserJock       and be consistent with Main
09:30   LaserJock       before etch release
09:30   LaserJock       but once merges are done and out of the way
09:30   LaserJock       hit REVU and get all the new crack in
09:30   ajmitch it'll give us a few weeks to work on bugs
09:30   geser   UVF = no new upstream version (only with approval) but new revisions don't need an approval?
09:30   sistpoty        geser: only new upstream versions
09:30   LaserJock       yes, "upstream" in this case is upstream upstream
09:31   sistpoty        *g*
09:31   LaserJock       new Debian revisions are ok
09:31   sistpoty        ok... let's vote so that we can move on
09:31   sistpoty        Feb 8?
09:31   sistpoty        +1
09:31   LaserJock       +1
09:31   sistpoty        (please clearly vote with -1 if you are against it)
09:31   geser   for FF or UVF?
09:32   LaserJock       UVF
09:32   sistpoty        geser: UVF
09:32   geser   +1
09:32   sistpoty        3
09:32   sistpoty        2
09:32   sistpoty        1
09:32   sistpoty        ok, accepted
09:32   sistpoty        next: FF
09:33   sistpoty        FF: march 1st? sooner or later?
09:33   ajmitch sooner
09:33   sistpoty        ajmitch: name a date please ;=
09:33   sistpoty        )
09:33   LaserJock       really?
09:33   ajmitch feb 22
09:34   ajmitch UVF+2 weeks
09:34   ajmitch depends on how much time you want people to spend reviewing vs bug fixing
09:34   sistpoty        if we do one or two revu sprints during that time, might be ok
09:34   LaserJock       yeah
09:34   LaserJock       that's what I was just thinking
09:34   ajmitch and announce it well
09:34   LaserJock       yes
09:34   ajmitch so that people know there's a deadline
=== ScottK likes revu sprints.
09:35   bddebian        sistpoty: :)
09:35   sistpoty        ok, votes please for feb 22
09:35   sistpoty        FF
09:35   sistpoty        +1 here
09:35   ajmitch so you'd have 1 month from now until universe FF
09:35   LaserJock       +1
09:35   ajmitch +1
09:35   geser   +1
09:35   LaserJock       that gives us 3 weeks after FF before Beta Freeze
09:36   ajmitch hopefully people don't yell too loudly for us deciding on dates ;)
09:36   sistpoty        ok... 3
09:36   sistpoty        2
09:36   sistpoty        1
09:36   ajmitch LaserJock: you think that's too long?
09:36   sistpoty        done...
09:36   ajmitch hm ok
09:36   LaserJock       ajmitch: no, I'm thinking we will need time for QA and upgrade testing
09:36   LaserJock       we should try to be pretty locked down *before* Beta
09:36   ajmitch we've done badly on that in the past
09:37   sistpoty        ajmitch: the dates should have been decided on the list a long time ago... but these things never work without MC ;)
09:37   ajmitch hence the QA topic coming up :)
09:37   ajmitch sistpoty: of course
09:37   ajmitch sistpoty: easier to ask forgiveness than permission ;)
09:37   LaserJock       sistpoty: can you please edit the release schedule so we can get those "written in stone"?
09:37   geser   is universe freeze on beta freeze?
09:37   ajmitch geser: no
09:37   sistpoty        LaserJock: will do after the meeting ;)
09:37   LaserJock       geser: there is no universe freeze
09:38   ajmitch none decided yet, anyway
09:38   sistpoty        universe freeze used to be FF + UVF combined
09:38   geser   LaserJock: in edgy we had one
09:38   ajmitch the hard freeze didn't work so well for edgy
09:38   ajmitch noone uploaded bug fixes
09:38   LaserJock       geser: as sistpoty said Universe Freeze was just FF+UVF
09:38   LaserJock       geser: it was done because the Edgy cycle was short
09:38   geser   so we can upload fixes till feisty release?
09:39   LaserJock       we have no freeze for fixes
09:39   LaserJock       as far as I can see
09:39   ajmitch until the buildds & upload queue is set to manual
09:39   ajmitch which is a couple of days before release
09:39   sistpoty        yes...
09:39   sistpoty        any more discussion needed for freeze dates? did I miss s.th.?
09:40   LaserJock       I don't think so, we just needed to rubber stamp it
09:40   sistpoty        ok, then let's move one, agreed?
09:40   LaserJock       can I inject a quick meeting item?
09:40   sistpoty        LaserJock: sure
09:40   LaserJock       At the end of last week I had a talk with kiko (LP dev)
09:41   LaserJock       and he expressed a desire for MOTU to have better representation with LP
09:41   LaserJock       and to work on making sure LP meets the MOTU's needs
09:41   LaserJock       to do this he wanted a MOTU representitive to work with the LP devs
09:42   LaserJock       to help prioritize bugs
09:42   LaserJock       and get feedback from MOTU and turn it into specific and concrete bug reports that they can work on
09:42   ajmitch (bugs in the launchpad code, not universe bugs)
09:42   LaserJock       yes
09:42   LaserJock       sorry
09:43   sistpoty        sounds great :)
09:43   LaserJock       so, if there aren't any objections, I will take on this role
=== ajmitch agrees
09:43   sistpoty        hehe, I just wanted to propose you, LaserJock ;)
09:43   sistpoty        +1
09:43   ajmitch thanks for volunteering :)
09:43   LaserJock       and will probably be meeting with the LP team (in some fashion) on a weekly basis
09:43   sistpoty        great!
09:43   LaserJock       I've started trawling through Malone bugs
09:43   LaserJock       looking at bugs that seem important to MOTU
09:44   LaserJock       and in fact I found a few of our long standing complaints are long standing bugs in Malone
09:44   bddebian        Yeah :-(
09:44   LaserJock       I will probably be using a special tag to mark certain bugs as MOTU priorities
09:45   Adri2000        the ability to target a bug for a release (for a SRU) in malone, currently only core-devs can do that
09:45   sistpoty        LaserJock: I'll have some things of LP as well... I'll write you a mail
09:45   LaserJock       so, if you have things that need to be fixed in LP (for MOTU work) please let me know
09:45   sistpoty        Adri2000: yep... would be really handy to get that fixed, at least for -sru / motu-swat
09:46   LaserJock       once I get things worked out with the LP guys I'll write an email to -motu explaining things further
09:46   LaserJock       but I really want to thank kiko for reaching out to MOTU
09:46   sistpoty        yay!
09:46   LaserJock       this was a really good idea on his part
09:46   LaserJock       and has commited to giving MOTU what it needs if possible
09:46   bddebian        Do we already have a policy on what really makes good candidates for backports?
09:47   LaserJock       anyway, that's it from me on that topic
09:47   ajmitch bddebian: add it to the meeting agenda :)
09:47   LaserJock       and I have to run to try to convince 300 undergrads to by goggles from me ;-) I'll be back in ~15 min
09:47   ajmitch bye :)
09:47   sistpoty        LaserJock: cya motu-lp-coordinator ;)
09:48   bddebian        Heh, later LaserJock
=== ajmitch may or may not be around for the qa topic
09:48   sistpoty        ajmitch: how about doing it now?
=== ajmitch shrugs
09:48   ajmitch ok, first up, we suck at QA
09:48   ajmitch edgy was a shambles
09:48   ajmitch we need to fix this
09:49   ajmitch one reason I wanted an early freeze date, so that we have plenty of time for fixing bugs
09:50   ajmitch I want us to have weekly targets of  things to do (unmet deps, critical bugs, etc), which will require some coordination with the bug squad
09:50   sistpoty        sounds great
09:50   ajmitch and I also want to try & get a list of bugs that are fixed in debian by new upstream versions that we don't have in ubuntu
09:50   ajmitch since we find out a few weeks after release about RC bugs that missed out on UVF by a day or so
09:51   ajmitch we've had the autoimporter shut off for so long that there may be many of these
09:51   ajmitch any other suggestions for what we need to do to make feisty universe better?
09:51   sistpoty        hm... I even needed to file sync requests for two security bugs
09:51   geser   we need also check for CVE fixed in unstable
09:51   ajmitch yep
09:52   ajmitch I can trawl the debian BTS via the LDAP gateway
09:52   ajmitch but I need to get the version info on the debian bugs
09:52   sistpoty        ajmitch: cool
09:53   ajmitch so, getting a list of packages that are older than in debian, getting a list of closed bugs, seeing what bugs were fixed in those versions we don't have
09:53   sistpoty        ajmitch: will you take leadership for universe-qa?
09:53   ajmitch who wants to try & do some weekly task lists (council job, i know)
09:53   ajmitch sure
09:53   sistpoty        ajmitch: cool, would be awesome
=== ajmitch grabs the whip
09:54   ajmitch give me suggestions of what we need to fix
09:54   ajmitch & how we do testing (upgrade & install testing, etc)
09:55   sistpoty        ajmitch: imo the most important thing is to try to motivate people to follow at least *some* task lists, instead of everybody working on something different
09:55   ajmitch yep
09:55   sistpoty        which I guess will be the hardest part as well ;)
09:55   ajmitch heh
09:55   geser   we should also check that packages build on all archs
09:56   ajmitch that should come under full archive rebuild testing
09:56   sistpoty        ajmitch: will that be done this time?
09:56   ajmitch I hope so
09:56   ajmitch I'll find out
09:57   geser   maybe we could ask the same person who did it the last time
09:57   sistpoty        ajmitch: iirc lucas did archive rebuilds for unstable, didn't he? maybe he could set s.th. up for feisty as well? (if we cannot do it officially)
09:57   ajmitch yes, he did
09:57   ajmitch imbrandon can probably do some with his new toys
09:58   geser   but this time with enough time for fixes
09:58   sistpoty        great
09:58   sistpoty        we should also try to fix as many unmet deps as possible... many sru's are due to unmet deps
09:59   sistpoty        (with really easy fixes!)
09:59   keescook        I'd love to get involved in some full rebuilds too; I'd like to test some toolchain changes at some point (separate from the feisty release stuff, obviously)
09:59   geser   what about packages that failed building on upload but build now?
09:59   ajmitch geser: certainly, I was filing a few bugs with fabbione after a full rebuild on sparc
09:59   ajmitch geser: we get the admins to give them back to the buildds
09:59   ajmitch keescook: excellent
10:00   sistpoty        ajmitch: is there a procedure to do the give-back? (my pings to lamont don't seem to have any impact)
10:00   ajmitch sistpoty: lamont hasn't done that for ages
10:00   lamont` ajmitch: well, I can now... but yeah
10:00   ajmitch unless he's been helping out recently
10:00   geser   sistpoty: ask Mithrandir for give-backs
10:01   geser   ajmitch: exists a list of those packages that need a look (because it failed building)?
10:01   ajmitch geser: there should be, if not, we'll get one
10:01   ajmitch mails are sent out on build failures now as well
10:01   ajmitch & we can officially beg the LP guys now
10:02   ajmitch anything else for QA that we need to cover now?
10:02   persia  I'd like to see removal of all NBS in universe.  Some install and fail for known reasons.
10:02   ajmitch we also need someone to do minutes of the meeting, please
10:03   sistpoty        I can do the minutes...
10:03   ajmitch persia: there's probably a lot we could cull from universe because they won't work without a lot of effort
10:03   ajmitch sistpoty: thanks
10:04   ajmitch this topic has sort of covered the needed todo lists as well
10:04   sistpoty        ok
10:04   ajmitch unmet deps, bugs fixed in debian, critical/important bugs on malone, etc
10:04   ajmitch sistpoty: you want to talk about translations soon?
10:05   sistpoty        erm... anyone got a clue about translations?
10:05   ajmitch nope
10:05   sistpoty        I actually only set it as topic, since we got a mail on -motu
10:05   ajmitch we'd need to talk to carlos
10:06   sistpoty        ok, then let's defer the item... anyone volunteering to contact carlos about it?
=== sistpoty is a little bit low on time atm :/
10:07   persia  I lurked on a conversation between seb128 and carlos.  Translations was related to a spec that was rejected, and needs revision (although I can't find the URL now).
10:08   ajmitch persia: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/language-packs-for-universe ?
10:09   persia  ajmitch: Yep, that's it.  The rejection was due to the volume and conflicts due to translations upstream vs. translations locally.
10:07   ajmitch then it's MOTU school
10:07   ajmitch we've been wanting to revive this for awhile, but it takes a reasonable about of time
10:08   sistpoty        hm... maybe it might make sense to do short (as in very short) lessons prior to a new task (e.g. unmet deps) being the current one
10:09   ajmitch sistpoty: probably a good idea, and link to the school session on the task lists
10:09   sistpoty        yes
10:10   ajmitch so we just need a call for volunteers for school sessions, and we can go for it ;)
10:10   ajmitch sistpoty: great, that was the last topic, we can go home ;)
10:10   sistpoty        ajmitch: date of next motu-meeting?
10:10   sistpoty        do we want to decide now or defer to mailing list?
10:11   LaserJock       for what? next meeting?
10:11   sistpoty        LaserJock: yes
10:11   ajmitch now + 3 weeks, exact date to be decided on list?
10:11   LaserJock       I think we should at least have a proposal right now
10:11   LaserJock       I think it should be the week after the MOTU Council get's finalized
10:11   ajmitch make it a regular thing
10:11   sistpoty        +3 weeks sounds good
10:11   LaserJock       I can dream can't I? ;-)
10:12   sistpoty        maybe we should rotate the time to cover different tz's?
10:12   ajmitch sistpoty: good idea
10:12   ajmitch sistpoty: a meeting every 3-4 weeks could be a good thing
10:12   sistpoty        ajmitch: agreed
10:12   ajmitch let people bring up their complaints
10:12   LaserJock       yes
10:12   LaserJock       I think if we have regular reports as well it will help
10:13   ajmitch yep
10:13   LaserJock       getting people going is what we need right now
10:13   sistpoty        wed, Feb 14?
10:13   sistpoty        let's say 8.00 UTC?
10:13   ajmitch sistpoty: sure, 1 week before FF
=== ajmitch might be a little late for that, but it should work
10:14   sistpoty        ok, anyone against that date?
10:14   ajmitch I think I'll be finished at practice at about 7:30UTC :)
10:14   ajmitch ah sorry, that's wednesday, i have nothing on that day
10:14   sistpoty        hehe... and I need to get up early (before noon)
10:14   ajmitch unless I get back to archery practice :)
10:14   LaserJock       well, that's midnight for me, but better than 10:00UTC
10:14   ajmitch LaserJock: alright
10:15   LaserJock       we should rotate times
10:15   ajmitch no objections?
10:15   sistpoty        no
10:15   LaserJock       I guess, with as many people as we have
10:15   LaserJock       not from me
10:15   ajmitch great
10:15   LaserJock       we can hash it out on the ML if it doesn't work for people
10:15   sistpoty        ok, then thanks everyone for the meeting...
10:15   ajmitch it is decided
10:15   LaserJock       I just think it's better to have a propasal, then work from there
10:16   ajmitch thanks sistpoty for getting it running
10:16   sistpoty        np
10:16   ajmitch & LaserJock
10:16   sistpoty        t'was small but very productive imo :)
10:16   LaserJock       sistpoty: thank you a lot for getting things going
10:16   LaserJock       and the REVU Reports are great
10:16   sistpoty        LaserJock: no problem... if I were that good with my thesis as well *g*
10:16   LaserJock       I meant, SRU Reports

MeetingLogs/MOTU/20070122 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:17:55 by localhost)