11:02 dholbach hello everybody - do we have a motu meeting right now? 11:02 sistpoty hi dholbach 11:02 ajmitch we do! 11:02 dholbach I thought maybe everybody was out to celebrate Valentine's day :) 11:02 ajmitch at least I hope we have enough people 11:02 ajmitch I think a few are 11:02 ajmitch (or just sleeping) 11:02 dholbach ok... who's here? 11:02 ajmitch laserjock sends his apologies, 2AM isn't suitable 11:03 TheMuso Valentine's day? Who'd waste their time with that? 11:03 ajmitch TheMuso: people who aren't single :) 11:03 TheMuso Thats understandable IMO 11:03 ajmitch hey jsgotangco :) 11:03 dholbach http://xkcd.com/c223.html 11:03 sistpoty ajmitch: I tend to agree... 11am isn't suitable *g* 11:03 ajmitch sistpoty: I'm impressed that you're awake at this early hour :) 11:03 dholbach scottk has an item on the agenda, but doesn't seem to be here === tmarble notes 4 AM isn't ultra suitable either, :) 11:04 ajmitch so the rest is sistpoty? :) 11:04 sistpoty ajmitch: well... awake is a different state than I'm in now *g+ 11:04 dholbach sistpoty: you have some items on the agenda - why don't you start us off? 11:04 sistpoty ok 11:04 sistpoty anyone volunteering for the minutes? 11:04 ajmitch um === ajmitch may as well 11:05 sistpoty cool, thx ajmitch 11:05 TheMuso ajmitch: I will if you'd rather not. 11:05 TheMuso I don't mind you doing it, but if you really don't want to. 11:05 ajmitch TheMuso: ok, thanks :) 11:05 sistpoty great, thx TheMuso 11:05 sistpoty let's get started, right?
11:05 sistpoty first item: Proposal to drop the requirement for MOTU's to have new packages reviewed 11:06 sistpoty well... we're always lagging with revu behind 11:06 ajmitch and enough MOTUs skip this step 11:06 sistpoty and imo it doesn't seem that sane that motu's should have the same requirements as non-motus to bring new packages in 11:07 TheMuso As well as already having the rights and responsibilities that come with the title of MOTU. 11:07 ajmitch it wasn't the same, but it was 1 other ACK 11:07 sistpoty practices differ ;) 11:07 ajmitch yeah 11:07 TheMuso Yep. 11:08 ajmitch the intended practice was that a MOTU upload to REVU & get 1 other MOTU to check it 11:08 sistpoty well... I'd propose that motu's are "encouraged to get a new package reviewed" instead of forcing them to go through revu 11:08 sistpoty what do you think? 11:08 ajmitch that has frequently been skipped by MOTUs who've been around awhile :) 11:08 ajmitch sure 11:08 TheMuso I like that. 11:08 dholbach I agree, TheMuso has a point... although I think that probably the MC should take that decision once it's active. This decision has more consequences than others. 11:08 TheMuso One area that other reviewing is useful is copyright related stuff. 11:08 tfheen as an archive team member, I'd be fine with you dropping the requirement, but if it ends up being even more rejects because of it, I'd like you to reconsider. 11:09 TheMuso Fair enough. 11:09 sistpoty great 11:10 sistpoty any objections? 11:10 dholbach what do you think about deferring the decision to the first MC meeting? 11:10 ajmitch sounds fair 11:10 sistpoty fine with me 11:10 TheMuso Yep. I'm sure crimsun would have something to say on this. 11:10 dholbach we gathered enough arguments now, but I think that a policy decision should be made by the MC 11:10 dholbach alrighty, let's move on 11:11 sistpoty ok... scottk isn't here, right? 11:11 dholbach yeah, let's move on - we can discuss his question on the mailing list
11:11 sistpoty Decide on standard policy for upstream debian dirs 11:11 dholbach I don't think it's necessary to have a policy for that, but a "best practice" bit in the FAQ maybe 11:12 dholbach shall I kick off a thread on the mailing list for that? 11:12 TheMuso I saw one package that renamed upstream's debian to debian.upstream. 11:12 sistpoty well... it was discussed on the ml in the past, but without a result 11:12 sistpoty so I'd rather discuss it here to have it settled 11:12 dholbach ok, there are 3 possibilities: 1) remove it, 2) rename it, 3) leave it (and in all cases talk to upstream to get it removed there) 11:13 dholbach (maybe also: repackage, native package) === ajmitch tends towards leave it + fix it 11:13 TheMuso I have seen many a package that ships with .spec files etc for rpm based distros, so what has been the problem with upstream providing a debian dir in the past? 11:13 sistpoty imo the first thing would always be to ask upstream to remove it... if that won't work, I'd tend to say that any packager may do as he seems fit 11:14 sistpoty TheMuso: the problem is that you cannot remove files from it (unless you remove them from the tarball) and that the .diff.gz looks kinda weird 11:14 ajmitch TheMuso: it's harder to change a number of files in a .diff.gz, since it doesn't track deletions well 11:14 TheMuso Right. 11:14 dholbach I don't think I'd dictate a workflow there. 11:14 ajmitch it depends on how messy upstream's debian/ is 11:15 ajmitch so up to the packager 11:15 ajmitch I think the issue was new people getting conflicting advice 11:15 dholbach who wants to add a blurb to MOTU/FAQ? :) 11:15 sistpoty ok... everybody agreeing that it's up to the packager? 11:15 TheMuso Yep. 11:15 dholbach yeah 11:16 sistpoty great 11:16 sistpoty I'll add the text to motu/faq, if no one else is faster ;) 11:16 sistpoty let's move on, shall we? 11:16 dholbach sure 11:16 dholbach thanks sistpoty 11:16 TheMuso yep ok 11:16 ajmitch make it a fast meeting :) 11:16 tmarble here's a naive question... if upstream debian/ is significantly changed does that hamper fix flow back to debian (i.e. does not minimize the debian-ubuntu diff)? 11:17 ajmitch seems like there's only 4 of us here & active 11:17 ajmitch tmarble: in this case, upstream is the original author, rather than debian 11:17 tmarble ajmitch, ah i see (sorry for the confusion) 11:16 sistpoty :)
11:16 sistpoty well, this was discussed on the ml as well... do we want zero-install injector? 11:17 TheMuso What is zero-install injector? 11:17 sistpoty TheMuso: it let's an user install packages, which get downloaded by some means 11:18 ajmitch tmarble: often the original upstream project might have someone who's contributing packaging in their project, and it's not in debian yet 11:18 dholbach sistpoty: do we have a link to the project? who wanted to bring it into ubuntu? it sounds more like an archive admin decision to me? 11:18 grimace www.0install.net 11:18 ajmitch sistpoty: I'm not really a fan of more breakage, but I've heard less scary things about zeroinstall than about autopackage 11:19 tsmithe i think we should let 0install in, on the basis of not what it is, but it being an ok and legal package. we don't have to support it's efforts 11:19 sistpoty tfheen: still there? could you share us your opinion on zero-install? 11:19 dholbach ask pitti :) 11:19 tfheen sistpoty: let me take a look. 11:19 ajmitch see if he runs away screaming? 11:19 sistpoty well, I reviewed the package (also looking at the code a lilttle bit) and it didn't seem too offensive security wise 11:20 tfheen like klik, it seems. 11:20 sistpoty however it provides an alternate means to install software 11:20 talex Hi guys. I'm the author of Zero Install, so if you have any technical questions, ask away... 11:20 sistpoty so I'm really undecided 11:20 sistpoty hi talex 11:20 grimace I've been running it for years very nicely ;) 11:20 sistpoty how about letting archive admins decide on this issue? 11:21 dholbach sistpoty++ 11:21 TheMuso THat sounds sane to me. 11:21 tfheen depends on how it works, but if it's like klik which does something like MacOS disk images, I'm fine with it, from an archive POV, but I think we can offer a much better user experience by packaging the software properly. 11:21 tfheen talex might be able to comment (short) on that? 11:21 grimace tfheen: then it will be up to the user to agree with you? 11:21 talex It installs to a self contained directory, rather than a disk image, but same principle. 11:22 talex Also, the download is an XML file, rather than a shell script, but the effect is the same. 11:23 tfheen ok. 11:23 tfheen from an archive point of view, that's fine with me and as long as it doesn't end up tripping the rest of the system (*cough* autopackage *cough*) it shouldn't cause problems either. 11:24 talex Right. It will never install anything outside of ~/.cache/0install.net or (if run as root) /var/cache/0install.net 11:24 sistpoty tfheen: ok, then I'll just upload the package and you can look at it via new... ok? 11:25 tfheen sistpoty: sure. 11:25 sistpoty great... let's move on 11:25 ajmitch great, halfway through the meeting items
11:25 dholbach sistpoty wants to review the uvf-process 11:25 ajmitch UVF team/process 11:25 ajmitch some confusion here 11:25 sistpoty well... UVF has just started... 11:25 dholbach slomo, siretart and I agreed to have the same uvf team again to avoid having to vote etc again 11:26 dholbach the next team should be appointed by the MC (in time!) :) 11:26 dholbach we just didn't want to have a delay because of that 11:26 TheMuso dholbach: Makes sense. 11:26 sistpoty ok... have there been many UVF requests yet? are you getting along well? 11:26 dholbach atm there are 7 open afaik === ajmitch wasn't sure if he was meant to vote or not, so refrained from confusing people :) 11:26 sistpoty (basically the item was just a ping to make sure everything's working as expected) 11:27 ajmitch dholbach: if I get going this weekend I'll have a bunch more 11:27 dholbach I'll go through the open bugs later today 11:27 ajmitch dholbach: there's 1 unconfirmed assigned to motu-uvf 11:27 ajmitch I think that once they're confirmed, motu-uvf should be unassigned, right? 11:27 dholbach yeah that'd make sense 11:28 tmarble sorry for the n00b question, just what exactly *is* the UVF process? (i.e. file special bugs, etc.)? === ajmitch would think that would be internal team agreement 11:28 ajmitch tmarble: yep, file a bug, assign it to motu-uvf === ajmitch pulls up the wiki page 11:28 dholbach https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess#head-9523bc4076ff011324d67cddc97969ec609618d6 11:28 ajmitch thanks 11:29 sistpoty ok... if everything is working (as it looks to me), I see no need for further discussion 11:29 dholbach tmarble: we're in upstream version freeze now, so a special team checks a upstream changelog diff and a diffstat before approval 11:29 dholbach revu sprint sounds good :) 11:29 ajmitch sistpoty: so from that, motu-uvf don't upload on the 2nd ack, that's only for SRU :) 11:30 ajmitch I thought another revu sprint was already scheduled? 11:30 sistpoty ajmitch: yep, right... there is no debdiff involved 11:30 sistpoty is it? 11:30 dholbach no 11:30 TheMuso ajmitch: News to me. 11:30 ajmitch if not, then let's do it 11:30 sistpoty ajmitch: since you're chief of qa, please pick a sensible date ;) 11:30 ajmitch hah 11:31 TheMuso haha 11:31 ajmitch what time suits people? 11:31 sistpoty hehe 11:31 ajmitch monday/tuesday? 11:31 TheMuso Whenever at the moment. I'm around a lot of my waking hours. 11:31 dholbach sounds good to me 11:31 ajmitch ok 11:31 sistpoty sounds sane 11:31 ajmitch it's generally just a time for people to do more reviewing 11:32 ajmitch sanity, from me? === ajmitch is slipping\ 11:32 dholbach :-) 11:32 sistpoty hehe 11:32 TheMuso ajmitch: lol
11:32 dholbach ok... moving to TODOs 11:32 sistpoty well... this point is up for everyone... 11:32 dholbach sistpoty: is the item a try to update the TODO page? 11:33 ajmitch yeah, I've slipped behind on getting more lists, and getting commented lists 11:33 dholbach UnmetDeps for sure 11:33 dholbach I see one 'transition' coming up, but the documentation for that is not ready yet: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PyDbgBuilds 11:33 ajmitch since I promised a commentable unmet deps list & some others 11:33 dholbach so don't mention that yet 11:33 ajmitch how much work in that one? 11:33 dholbach doko will write something to the lists too 11:33 TheMuso Is there a way of getting a list of unmet deps for source packages? 11:34 ajmitch TheMuso: the basic way is apt-cache -u unmet 11:34 ajmitch and then pushing that through a few filters to get a list of source packages 11:34 sistpoty hm... how about doing mass bug filing for unmet deps? 11:34 ajmitch should be easy enough if they're verified before filing 11:35 sistpoty dholbach: didn't you do that with a script for edgy? 11:35 dholbach sistpoty: massfiling bugs? 11:35 sistpoty dholbach: yep === ajmitch would like to see that pre-tagging support for filing bugs in malone 11:35 dholbach sistpoty: http://daniel.holba.ch/bzr/massfile 11:35 sistpoty cool 11:36 ajmitch who's going to do it? we don't want 2 or 3 people mass-filing :) === sistpoty hides behind his thesis 11:37 dholbach I thought about using python-bughelper to determine if bugs are already filed. 11:37 ajmitch sistpoty: fine, I'll volunteer :P 11:37 dholbach but I'm not sure it's going to work as it is atm 11:37 sistpoty ajmitch: great :) 11:37 geser on which arch will the checking be done for the bugs? 11:37 ajmitch dholbach: it'd be slow & cause plenty of LP load 11:37 ajmitch geser: amd64 or x86, I've got both 11:37 ajmitch in a nice squeaky clean chroot 11:38 dholbach ajmitch: no no :) 11:38 geser there are some unmet deps which only appear on one arch (due to ftbfs) 11:38 dholbach what else do we have? how are the merges looking? 11:38 ajmitch dholbach: no no? 11:38 ajmitch merges are looking better 11:38 dholbach ajmitch: no no "slow" :) 11:38 TheMuso_ um.... ok guys 11:38 sistpoty well... we still have ajmitch's list of RC-bug fixes 11:38 ajmitch there are still a number of serious/grave bugs that debian has fixed 11:38 TheMuso_ I was cut off. What'd I miss? 11:38 ajmitch yeah 11:38 sistpoty and lucas list's of FTBFS 11:39 ajmitch TheMuso: you've been delegated to fix universe bugs 11:39 dholbach TheMuso_: I'll paste you what happened 11:39 ajmitch logs should be on the usual place later 11:39 TheMuso_ dholbach: Thanks. 11:40 dholbach what else do we have? pythondbg (once it gets started), unmet deps, merges - what else? :) 11:40 sistpoty bug fixing, bug fixing, bug fixing ... 11:40 dholbach ok, sounds good :) 11:40 ajmitch so more sync request need to be filed for the RC bugs, I filed about 50 already, I'll get onto doing some more 11:40 dholbach ahh... how many motus are you mentoring at the moment? 11:40 ajmitch I may need UVF exceptions, so be ready :) 11:40 ajmitch none === ajmitch is too scary to mentor people 11:41 dholbach i don't believe a word :) 11:41 dholbach ok... if people talk to you, we should be good at pointing them at the todo 11:41 TheMuso_ ajmitch: You are thorough. 11:41 sistpoty ok... anything else on the TODO-list? if not let's agree on a date of the next meeting 11:41 dholbach maybe we should also try to tag universe bugs as "packaging bug" or something 11:41 ajmitch ok, we've got enough to keep the TODO updated? 11:42 dholbach so people who are interested can get involved easily in fixing packaging 11:42 TheMuso_ who's updating it? 11:42 sistpoty dholbach++ 11:42 dholbach what do you think about having a universe bug sprint to do just that 11:42 ajmitch bug triage, or bug fixing? 11:42 dholbach for bughelper bugs we use "bitesize" to indicate an easy bug 11:42 TheMuso_ I guess that sort of thing can happen after FF? 11:42 dholbach triage, so we can point people to a list of bugs 11:42 dholbach maybe we should have a discussion about bug tags on the mailing list 11:42 ajmitch dholbach: sounds like something the bugsquad may be able to do 11:42 sistpoty that would be great 11:43 dholbach i can see "packaging" and "bitesize" as useful already 11:43 dholbach ajmitch: we should do that too 11:43 dholbach ajmitch: we can't shove bugs to "bugsquad" 11:43 ajmitch if there are people in the bugsquad who can identify stuff as packaging bugs 11:43 dholbach that doesn't work 11:43 ajmitch no, but I'd hope that they be the first line of bug triage :) 11:43 dholbach we should make an effort too 11:43 dholbach and explain what our "guidelines" and "ideas" are 11:43 ajmitch of course, I'm not saying that we should drop it on them 11:44 dholbach ok
11:44 dholbach any other business? 11:44 geser what should we do with mozilla-browser in feisty? it's removed from debian and replaced with seamonkey upstream 11:44 ajmitch next meeting time 11:44 ajmitch if we keep mozilla-browser in feisty, someone will need to keep it updated 11:45 geser from where will you update it? upstream abandoned it 11:45 sistpoty I'd like to go with debian in this respect, unless someone is volunteering to take care of it === ajmitch agrees 11:45 dholbach next meeting time: maybe we should have a MC meeting first and discuss where we want to go with MC meetings vs MOTU meetings 11:46 ajmitch dholbach: sounds good, so we need a MC first :) 11:46 geser should we replace mozilla-browser with iceape? 11:46 dholbach right-o 11:46 dholbach what about MC meeting end of next week? 11:46 ajmitch sounds good 11:46 dholbach that'd leave some time for the MC to talk to each other etc 11:47 ajmitch 3 (potential) MC members here to agree on it, so it should work 11:47 sistpoty yep... sounds sane 11:47 dholbach friday same time? a bit later? 11:47 ajmitch votes close in 13 hours, will you announce to the world after that? 11:48 ajmitch friday 10:00UTC? 11:48 sistpoty dholbach: a bit later would be nice for me :P 11:48 ajmitch will sistpoty be awake? 11:48 sistpoty hehe 11:48 dholbach sistpoty: 2h more? :) 11:48 ajmitch not too much later, please :) === TheMuso_ notes that ajmitch set himself a trap. 11:48 sistpoty well.. 10utc is fine for me as well... I wanted to get a saner wake-sleep rythm anyways 11:48 ajmitch TheMuso_: sistpoty is more in my timezone than dholbach's ;) 11:49 dholbach ok fri, 23rd 10 utc MC meeting 11:49 ajmitch ok === ajmitch notes that on his calendar 11:49 dholbach excellent 11:49 dholbach thanks a lot to everybody for a QUICK meeting 11:49 sistpoty cool :) 11:49 ajmitch thanks! 11:49 dholbach we're getting quite disciplined :) 11:49 sistpoty thanks 11:49 ajmitch it helped that there were so few of us === TheMuso_ will endever to have the minutes on the ml in the next hour or so. 11:49 ajmitch TheMuso_: thank you very much === dholbach writes a mail to ubuntu-bugsquad@ and ubuntu-motu@ 11:50 TheMuso_ np 11:50 ajmitch http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html should have the full log in 30min or so, or I can stick it somewhere for you 11:50 TheMuso_ Now if freenode could just kick my original connection, I'd be happier. :) 11:51 dholbach /msg nickserv ghost themuso <password> 11:51 TheMuso_ ajmitch: Besides the cutoff, where dholbach msgd the missed bits, I have it logged 11:51 TheMuso_ dholbach: thanks 11:51 ajmitch ok, I've got the whole thing 11:52 TheMuso ajmitch: Thanks, but I'll probably not need it. 11:52 ajmitch http://ajmitch.net.nz/~ajmitch/motu-meeting.log === TheMuso grabs anyway 11:52 TheMuso thanks 11:53 TheMuso I think NSW ADSL customers experienced something weird. 11:53 TheMuso anyways, back to -motu 11:53 TheMuso thanks folks