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11:02   dholbach        hello everybody - do we have a motu meeting right now?
11:02   sistpoty        hi dholbach
11:02   ajmitch we do!
11:02   dholbach        I thought maybe everybody was out to celebrate Valentine's day :)
11:02   ajmitch at least I hope we have enough people
11:02   ajmitch I think a few are
11:02   ajmitch (or just sleeping)
11:02   dholbach        ok... who's here?
11:02   ajmitch laserjock sends his apologies, 2AM isn't suitable
11:03   TheMuso Valentine's day? Who'd waste their time with that?
11:03   ajmitch TheMuso: people who aren't single :)
11:03   TheMuso Thats understandable IMO
11:03   ajmitch hey jsgotangco :)
11:03   dholbach        http://xkcd.com/c223.html
11:03   sistpoty        ajmitch: I tend to agree... 11am isn't suitable *g*
11:03   ajmitch sistpoty: I'm impressed that you're awake at this early hour :)
11:03   dholbach        scottk has an item on the agenda, but doesn't seem to be here
=== tmarble notes 4 AM isn't ultra suitable either, :)
11:04   ajmitch so the rest is sistpoty? :)
11:04   sistpoty        ajmitch: well... awake is a different state than I'm in now *g+
11:04   dholbach        sistpoty: you have some items on the agenda - why don't you start us off?
11:04   sistpoty        ok
11:04   sistpoty        anyone volunteering for the minutes?
11:04   ajmitch um
=== ajmitch may as well
11:05   sistpoty        cool, thx ajmitch
11:05   TheMuso ajmitch: I will if you'd rather not.
11:05   TheMuso I don't mind you doing it, but if you really don't want to.
11:05   ajmitch TheMuso: ok, thanks :)
11:05   sistpoty        great, thx TheMuso
11:05   sistpoty        let's get started, right?

Anchor(review)

11:05   sistpoty        first item: Proposal to drop the requirement for MOTU's to have new packages reviewed
11:06   sistpoty        well... we're always lagging with revu behind
11:06   ajmitch and enough MOTUs skip this step
11:06   sistpoty        and imo it doesn't seem that sane that motu's should have the same requirements as non-motus to bring new packages in
11:07   TheMuso As well as already having the rights and responsibilities that come with the title of MOTU.
11:07   ajmitch it wasn't the same, but it was 1 other ACK
11:07   sistpoty        practices differ ;)
11:07   ajmitch yeah
11:07   TheMuso Yep.
11:08   ajmitch the intended practice was that a MOTU upload to REVU & get 1 other MOTU to check it
11:08   sistpoty        well... I'd propose that motu's are "encouraged to get a new package reviewed" instead of forcing them to go through revu
11:08   sistpoty        what do you think?
11:08   ajmitch that has frequently been skipped by MOTUs who've been around awhile :)
11:08   ajmitch sure
11:08   TheMuso I like that.
11:08   dholbach        I agree, TheMuso has a point... although I think that probably the MC should take that decision once it's active. This decision has more consequences than others.
11:08   TheMuso One area that other reviewing is useful is copyright related stuff.
11:08   tfheen  as an archive team member, I'd be fine with you dropping the requirement, but if it ends up being even more rejects because of it, I'd like you to reconsider.
11:09   TheMuso Fair enough.
11:09   sistpoty        great
11:10   sistpoty        any objections?
11:10   dholbach        what do you think about deferring the decision to the first MC meeting?
11:10   ajmitch sounds fair
11:10   sistpoty        fine with me
11:10   TheMuso Yep. I'm sure crimsun would have something to say on this.
11:10   dholbach        we gathered enough arguments now, but I think that a policy decision should be made by the MC
11:10   dholbach        alrighty, let's move on
11:11   sistpoty        ok... scottk isn't here, right?
11:11   dholbach        yeah, let's move on - we can discuss his question on the mailing list

11:11   sistpoty        Decide on standard policy for upstream debian dirs
11:11   dholbach        I don't think it's necessary to have a policy for that, but a "best practice" bit in the FAQ maybe
11:12   dholbach        shall I kick off a thread on the mailing list for that?
11:12   TheMuso I saw one package that renamed upstream's debian to debian.upstream.
11:12   sistpoty        well... it was discussed on the ml in the past, but without a result
11:12   sistpoty        so I'd rather discuss it here to have it settled
11:12   dholbach        ok, there are 3 possibilities: 1) remove it, 2) rename it, 3) leave it (and in all cases talk to upstream to get it removed there)
11:13   dholbach        (maybe also: repackage, native package)
=== ajmitch tends towards leave it + fix it
11:13   TheMuso I have seen many a package that ships with .spec files etc for rpm based distros, so what has been the problem with upstream providing a debian dir in the past?
11:13   sistpoty        imo the first thing would always be to ask upstream to remove it... if that won't work, I'd tend to say that any packager may do as he seems fit
11:14   sistpoty        TheMuso: the problem is that you cannot remove files from it (unless you remove them from the tarball) and that the .diff.gz looks kinda weird
11:14   ajmitch TheMuso: it's harder to change a number of files in a .diff.gz, since it doesn't track deletions well
11:14   TheMuso Right.
11:14   dholbach        I don't think I'd dictate a workflow there.
11:14   ajmitch it depends on how messy upstream's debian/ is
11:15   ajmitch so up to the packager
11:15   ajmitch I think the issue was new people getting conflicting advice
11:15   dholbach        who wants to add a blurb to MOTU/FAQ? :)
11:15   sistpoty        ok... everybody agreeing that it's up to the packager?
11:15   TheMuso Yep.
11:15   dholbach        yeah
11:16   sistpoty        great
11:16   sistpoty        I'll add the text to motu/faq, if no one else is faster ;)
11:16   sistpoty        let's move on, shall we?
11:16   dholbach        sure
11:16   dholbach        thanks sistpoty
11:16   TheMuso yep ok
11:16   ajmitch make it a fast meeting :)
11:16   tmarble here's a naive question... if upstream debian/ is significantly changed does that hamper fix flow back to debian (i.e. does not minimize the debian-ubuntu diff)?
11:17   ajmitch seems like there's only 4 of us here & active
11:17   ajmitch tmarble: in this case, upstream is the original author, rather than debian
11:17   tmarble ajmitch, ah i see (sorry for the confusion)
11:16   sistpoty        :)

Anchor(zero)

11:16   sistpoty        well, this was discussed on the ml as well... do we want zero-install injector?
11:17   TheMuso What is zero-install injector?
11:17   sistpoty        TheMuso: it let's an user install packages, which get downloaded by some means
11:18   ajmitch tmarble: often the original upstream project might have someone who's contributing packaging in their project, and it's not in debian yet
11:18   dholbach        sistpoty: do we have a link to the project? who wanted to bring it into ubuntu? it sounds more like an archive admin decision to me?
11:18   grimace www.0install.net
11:18   ajmitch sistpoty: I'm not really a fan of more breakage, but I've heard less scary things about zeroinstall than about autopackage
11:19   tsmithe i think we should let 0install in, on the basis of not what it is, but it being an ok and legal package. we don't have to support it's efforts
11:19   sistpoty        tfheen: still there? could you share us your opinion on zero-install?
11:19   dholbach        ask pitti :)
11:19   tfheen  sistpoty: let me take a look.
11:19   ajmitch see if he runs away screaming?
11:19   sistpoty        well, I reviewed the package (also looking at the code a lilttle bit) and it didn't seem too offensive security wise
11:20   tfheen  like klik, it seems.
11:20   sistpoty        however it provides an alternate means to install software
11:20   talex   Hi guys. I'm the author of Zero Install, so if you have any technical questions, ask away...
11:20   sistpoty        so I'm really undecided
11:20   sistpoty        hi talex
11:20   grimace I've been running it for years very nicely ;)
11:20   sistpoty        how about letting archive admins decide on this issue?
11:21   dholbach        sistpoty++
11:21   TheMuso THat sounds sane to me.
11:21   tfheen  depends on how it works, but if it's like klik which does something like MacOS disk images, I'm fine with it, from an archive POV, but I think we can offer a much better user experience by packaging the software properly.
11:21   tfheen  talex might be able to comment (short) on that?
11:21   grimace tfheen: then it will be up to the user to agree with you?
11:21   talex   It installs to a self contained directory, rather than a disk image, but same principle.
11:22   talex   Also, the download is an XML file, rather than a shell script, but the effect is the same.
11:23   tfheen  ok.
11:23   tfheen  from an archive point of view, that's fine with me and as long as it doesn't end up tripping the rest of the system (*cough* autopackage *cough*) it shouldn't cause problems either.
11:24   talex   Right. It will never install anything outside of ~/.cache/0install.net or (if run as root) /var/cache/0install.net
11:24   sistpoty        tfheen: ok, then I'll just upload the package and you can look at it via new... ok?
11:25   tfheen  sistpoty: sure.
11:25   sistpoty        great... let's move on
11:25   ajmitch great, halfway through the meeting items

11:25   dholbach        sistpoty wants to review the uvf-process
11:25   ajmitch UVF team/process
11:25   ajmitch some confusion here
11:25   sistpoty        well... UVF has just started...
11:25   dholbach        slomo, siretart and I agreed to have the same uvf team again to avoid having to vote etc again
11:26   dholbach        the next team should be appointed by the MC (in time!) :)
11:26   dholbach        we just didn't want to have a delay because of that
11:26   TheMuso dholbach: Makes sense.
11:26   sistpoty        ok... have there been many UVF requests yet? are you getting along well?
11:26   dholbach        atm there are 7 open afaik
=== ajmitch wasn't sure if he was meant to vote or not, so refrained from confusing people :)
11:26   sistpoty        (basically the item was just a ping to make sure everything's working as expected)
11:27   ajmitch dholbach: if I get going this weekend I'll have a bunch more
11:27   dholbach        I'll go through the open bugs later today
11:27   ajmitch dholbach: there's 1 unconfirmed assigned to motu-uvf
11:27   ajmitch I think that once they're confirmed, motu-uvf should be unassigned, right?
11:27   dholbach        yeah that'd make sense
11:28   tmarble sorry for the n00b question, just what exactly *is* the UVF process? (i.e. file special bugs, etc.)?
=== ajmitch would think that would be internal team agreement
11:28   ajmitch tmarble: yep, file a bug, assign it to motu-uvf
=== ajmitch pulls up the wiki page
11:28   dholbach        https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess#head-9523bc4076ff011324d67cddc97969ec609618d6
11:28   ajmitch thanks
11:29   sistpoty        ok... if everything is working (as it looks to me), I see no need for further discussion
11:29   dholbach        tmarble: we're in upstream version freeze now, so a special team checks a upstream changelog diff and a diffstat before approval
11:29   dholbach        revu sprint sounds good :)
11:29   ajmitch sistpoty: so from that, motu-uvf don't upload on the 2nd ack, that's only for SRU :)
11:30   ajmitch I thought another revu sprint was already scheduled?
11:30   sistpoty        ajmitch: yep, right... there is no debdiff involved
11:30   sistpoty        is it?
11:30   dholbach        no
11:30   TheMuso ajmitch: News to me.
11:30   ajmitch if not, then let's do it
11:30   sistpoty        ajmitch: since you're chief of qa, please pick a sensible date ;)
11:30   ajmitch hah
11:31   TheMuso haha
11:31   ajmitch what time suits people?
11:31   sistpoty        hehe
11:31   ajmitch monday/tuesday?
11:31   TheMuso Whenever at the moment. I'm around a lot of my waking hours.
11:31   dholbach        sounds good to me
11:31   ajmitch ok
11:31   sistpoty        sounds sane
11:31   ajmitch it's generally just a time for people to do more reviewing
11:32   ajmitch sanity, from me?
=== ajmitch is slipping\
11:32   dholbach        :-)
11:32   sistpoty        hehe
11:32   TheMuso ajmitch: lol

Anchor(todo)

11:32   dholbach        ok... moving to TODOs
11:32   sistpoty        well... this point is up for everyone...
11:32   dholbach        sistpoty: is the item a try to update the TODO page?
11:33   ajmitch yeah, I've slipped behind on getting more lists, and getting commented lists
11:33   dholbach        UnmetDeps for sure
11:33   dholbach        I see one 'transition' coming up, but the documentation for that is not ready yet: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PyDbgBuilds
11:33   ajmitch since I promised a commentable unmet deps list & some others
11:33   dholbach        so don't mention that yet
11:33   ajmitch how much work in that one?
11:33   dholbach        doko will write something to the lists too
11:33   TheMuso Is there a way of getting a list of unmet deps for source packages?
11:34   ajmitch TheMuso: the basic way is apt-cache -u unmet
11:34   ajmitch and then pushing that through a few filters to get a list of source packages
11:34   sistpoty        hm... how about doing mass bug filing for unmet deps?
11:34   ajmitch should be easy enough if they're verified before filing
11:35   sistpoty        dholbach: didn't you do that with a script for edgy?
11:35   dholbach        sistpoty: massfiling bugs?
11:35   sistpoty        dholbach: yep
=== ajmitch would like to see that pre-tagging support for filing bugs in malone
11:35   dholbach        sistpoty: http://daniel.holba.ch/bzr/massfile
11:35   sistpoty        cool
11:36   ajmitch who's going to do it? we don't want 2 or 3 people mass-filing :)
=== sistpoty hides behind his thesis
11:37   dholbach        I thought about using python-bughelper to determine if bugs are already filed.
11:37   ajmitch sistpoty: fine, I'll volunteer :P
11:37   dholbach        but I'm not sure it's going to work as it is atm
11:37   sistpoty        ajmitch: great :)
11:37   geser   on which arch will the checking be done for the bugs?
11:37   ajmitch dholbach: it'd be slow & cause plenty of LP load
11:37   ajmitch geser: amd64 or x86, I've got both
11:37   ajmitch in a nice squeaky clean chroot
11:38   dholbach        ajmitch: no no :)
11:38   geser   there are some unmet deps which only appear on one arch (due to ftbfs)
11:38   dholbach        what else do we have? how are the merges looking?
11:38   ajmitch dholbach: no no?
11:38   ajmitch merges are looking better
11:38   dholbach        ajmitch: no no "slow" :)
11:38   TheMuso_        um.... ok guys
11:38   sistpoty        well... we still have ajmitch's list of RC-bug fixes
11:38   ajmitch there are still a number of serious/grave bugs that debian has fixed
11:38   TheMuso_        I was cut off. What'd I miss?
11:38   ajmitch yeah
11:38   sistpoty        and lucas list's of FTBFS
11:39   ajmitch TheMuso: you've been delegated to fix universe bugs
11:39   dholbach        TheMuso_: I'll paste you what happened
11:39   ajmitch logs should be on the usual place later
11:39   TheMuso_        dholbach: Thanks.
11:40   dholbach        what else do we have? pythondbg (once it gets started), unmet deps, merges - what else? :)
11:40   sistpoty        bug fixing, bug fixing, bug fixing ...
11:40   dholbach        ok, sounds good :)
11:40   ajmitch so more sync request need to be filed for the RC bugs, I filed about 50 already, I'll get onto doing some more
11:40   dholbach        ahh... how many motus are you mentoring at the moment?
11:40   ajmitch I may need UVF exceptions, so be ready :)
11:40   ajmitch none
=== ajmitch is too scary to mentor people
11:41   dholbach        i don't believe a word :)
11:41   dholbach        ok... if people talk to you, we should be good at pointing them at the todo
11:41   TheMuso_        ajmitch: You are thorough.
11:41   sistpoty        ok... anything else on the TODO-list? if not let's agree on a date of the next meeting
11:41   dholbach        maybe we should also try to tag universe bugs as "packaging bug" or something
11:41   ajmitch ok, we've got enough to keep the TODO updated?
11:42   dholbach        so people who are interested can get involved easily in fixing packaging
11:42   TheMuso_        who's updating it?
11:42   sistpoty        dholbach++
11:42   dholbach        what do you think about having a universe bug sprint to do just that
11:42   ajmitch bug triage, or bug fixing?
11:42   dholbach        for bughelper bugs we use "bitesize" to indicate an easy bug
11:42   TheMuso_        I guess that sort of thing can happen after FF?
11:42   dholbach        triage, so we can point people to a list of bugs
11:42   dholbach        maybe we should have a discussion about bug tags on the mailing list
11:42   ajmitch dholbach: sounds like something the bugsquad may be able to do
11:42   sistpoty        that would be great
11:43   dholbach        i can see "packaging" and "bitesize" as useful already
11:43   dholbach        ajmitch: we should do that too
11:43   dholbach        ajmitch: we can't shove bugs to "bugsquad"
11:43   ajmitch if there are people in the bugsquad who can identify stuff as packaging bugs
11:43   dholbach        that doesn't work
11:43   ajmitch no, but I'd hope that they be the first line of bug triage :)
11:43   dholbach        we should make an effort too
11:43   dholbach        and explain what our "guidelines" and "ideas" are
11:43   ajmitch of course, I'm not saying that we should drop it on them
11:44   dholbach        ok

11:44   dholbach        any other business?
11:44   geser   what should we do with mozilla-browser in feisty? it's removed from debian and replaced with seamonkey upstream
11:44   ajmitch next meeting time
11:44   ajmitch if we keep mozilla-browser in feisty, someone will need to keep it updated
11:45   geser   from where will you update it? upstream abandoned it
11:45   sistpoty        I'd like to go with debian in this respect, unless someone is volunteering to take care of it
=== ajmitch agrees
11:45   dholbach        next meeting time: maybe we should have a MC meeting first and discuss where we want to go with MC meetings vs MOTU meetings
11:46   ajmitch dholbach: sounds good, so we need a MC first :)
11:46   geser   should we replace mozilla-browser with iceape?
11:46   dholbach        right-o
11:46   dholbach        what about MC meeting end of next week?
11:46   ajmitch sounds good
11:46   dholbach        that'd leave some time for the MC to talk to each other etc
11:47   ajmitch 3 (potential) MC members here to agree on it, so it should work
11:47   sistpoty        yep... sounds sane
11:47   dholbach        friday same time? a bit later?
11:47   ajmitch votes close in 13 hours, will you announce to the world after that?
11:48   ajmitch friday 10:00UTC?
11:48   sistpoty        dholbach: a bit later would be nice for me :P
11:48   ajmitch will sistpoty be awake?
11:48   sistpoty        hehe
11:48   dholbach        sistpoty: 2h more? :)
11:48   ajmitch not too much later, please :)
=== TheMuso_ notes that ajmitch set himself a trap.
11:48   sistpoty        well.. 10utc is fine for me as well... I wanted to get a saner wake-sleep rythm anyways
11:48   ajmitch TheMuso_: sistpoty is more in my timezone than dholbach's ;)
11:49   dholbach        ok fri, 23rd 10 utc MC meeting
11:49   ajmitch ok
=== ajmitch notes that on his calendar
11:49   dholbach        excellent
11:49   dholbach        thanks a lot to everybody for a QUICK meeting
11:49   sistpoty        cool :)
11:49   ajmitch thanks!
11:49   dholbach        we're getting quite disciplined :)
11:49   sistpoty        thanks
11:49   ajmitch it helped that there were so few of us
=== TheMuso_ will endever to have the minutes on the ml in the next hour or so.
11:49   ajmitch TheMuso_: thank you very much
=== dholbach writes a mail to ubuntu-bugsquad@ and ubuntu-motu@
11:50   TheMuso_        np
11:50   ajmitch http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-current.html should have the full log in 30min or so, or I can stick it somewhere for you
11:50   TheMuso_        Now if freenode could just kick my original connection, I'd be happier. :)
11:51   dholbach          /msg nickserv ghost themuso <password>
11:51   TheMuso_        ajmitch: Besides the cutoff, where dholbach msgd the missed bits, I have it logged
11:51   TheMuso_        dholbach: thanks
11:51   ajmitch ok, I've got the whole thing
11:52   TheMuso ajmitch: Thanks, but I'll probably not need it.
11:52   ajmitch http://ajmitch.net.nz/~ajmitch/motu-meeting.log
=== TheMuso grabs anyway
11:52   TheMuso thanks
11:53   TheMuso I think NSW ADSL customers experienced something weird.
11:53   TheMuso anyways, back to -motu
11:53   TheMuso thanks folks