(08:00:21 PM) persia: Who's chairing the meeting today?
(08:00:33 PM) ajmitch: persia: you just volunteered
(08:00:38 PM) sistpoty: :)
(08:00:54 PM) persia: OK.  Agenda is available from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
(08:01:08 PM) persia: First up: Other Business.  Anyone have any?
(08:01:36 PM) TheMuso: I just think we should start trying to make an effort to clear the remaining outstanding merges before UVF.
(08:01:44 PM) TheMuso: That is all.
(08:02:06 PM) Nafallo: hi all
(08:02:09 PM) nixternal: howdy
(08:02:12 PM) TheMuso: Only then may we consider updated merges, IMO.
(08:02:56 PM) minghua: I am worried some changes currently in unstable is too intrusive to be merged.
(08:03:11 PM) TheMuso: minghua: What packages?
(08:03:21 PM) minghua: Maybe only merging Debian revision updates, not new upstreams?
(08:03:38 PM) persia: minghua: I think many new upstreams are probably good before UVF
(08:03:41 PM) minghua: TheMuso: No concrete examples, just worrying.
(08:04:01 PM) minghua: Such things happened before, on dapper cycle IIRC.
(08:04:48 PM) sistpoty: just a side issue: can you all give some feedback about bluekujava's motu application on the MC list? (as the one week delay is passed iirc)
(08:04:49 PM) minghua: An MOTU merged/synced a package from Debian according to user's request, and broke a package I care about.
(08:05:03 PM) ***TheMuso has left feedback.
(08:05:26 PM) minghua: Granted, the Debian package didn't set strict enough Depends, but still.
(08:05:44 PM) Nafallo: minghua: so you actually found a bug that way? ;-)
(08:05:59 PM) sistpoty: TheMuso: right, thanks!
(08:06:02 PM) TheMuso: np
(08:06:23 PM) minghua: I'm not doing much merge work these days though, so I'm not trying to change the way other people work, just speaking out my concern.
(08:06:42 PM) zul: packages are going to get broken it is gutsy
(08:07:11 PM) minghua: Nafallo: About the dependency?  Yes.  But it's not my package anyway, and I don't use it, so I didn't report to Debian.
(08:07:28 PM) Nafallo: minghua: hehe. that's one way to look at it :-)
(08:07:48 PM) ***Nafallo isn't really active either. only has one package maintained in Ubuntu.
(08:08:06 PM) zul left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(08:09:06 PM) persia: Any additional other business, or shall we moved to fixed topics?
(08:09:28 PM) AndyP: i'm likey to do some more merging when i get the chance but could MOTUs who like to care for specific packages please flag merges they don't want other people to do using DaD or a bug? i don't want to step on toes
(08:09:53 PM) zul [n=chuck@ubuntu/member/zul] entered the room.
(08:09:57 PM) AndyP: s/likey/likely/
(08:10:34 PM) sistpoty: as this topic came up on the MC list recently, does anyone think we need to clarify/extent/modify the current merge policy?
(08:10:48 PM) Fujitsu: Which merge policy?
(08:11:35 PM) Nafallo: AndyP: I think I did already for gajim. could you please confirm that? :-)
(08:12:05 PM) sistpoty: Fujitsu: the erm... inofficial one? *g*
(08:12:28 PM) AndyP: Nafallo: yes, "DO NOT TOUCH!!!" is a good flag :)
(08:12:45 PM) Nafallo: hehe
(08:12:49 PM) ***Fujitsu must look at merging mplayer soon.
(08:13:14 PM) persia: Are there any volunteers to draft current merge practice into a policy doc, perhaps as part of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Merging?
(08:13:15 PM) Nafallo: Fujitsu: I'll help by screaming at ya if you break something I use :-)
(08:13:27 PM) Fujitsu: That's what I thought, Nafallo.
(08:14:08 PM) Nafallo: Fujitsu: (just ask me and we can see if I have time left over :-))
(08:14:44 PM) Fujitsu: What merge policy do we have, anyway>?
(08:15:25 PM) zul: you merge it you break it you fix it? ;)
(08:15:30 PM) sistpoty: Fujitsu: I didn't do a merge for gutsy (blame me), but it was s.th. like coordinate with the previous uploader eventually and merge
(08:15:57 PM) persia: Fujitsu: I think it's 1) all Outstanding merges should be done before DIF, 2) ping the last uploader before merging to make sure, 3) make sure the Debian changes are good between DIF & FF, 4) Be very careful after UVF.
(08:16:16 PM) Toadstool: 14
(08:16:19 PM) Toadstool: hmpf
(08:16:52 PM) Nafallo: DIF?
(08:16:54 PM) Fujitsu: persia: That makes sense.
(08:16:58 PM) Fujitsu: DebianImportFreeze, Nafallo.
(08:17:10 PM) Nafallo: aha. all those abbr. :-)
(08:17:15 PM) sistpoty: whoo new tla's :)
(08:17:22 PM) persia: OK.  Any objections to deferring the merge policy debate to the next meeting, and creating a wiki page with one or more proposals to be discussed then?
(08:17:24 PM) minghua: persia: Sounds good.  I especially like point (3).
(08:17:38 PM) sistpoty: persia: +1
(08:17:51 PM) AndyP: the policy is good but the blocking in 2 can take time, which could probably streamlined with a specific definition of "ping"
(08:18:03 PM) persia: Any volunteers to draft proposals for the next meeting?
(08:18:38 PM) Nafallo: I agree with AndyP here :-)
(08:18:54 PM) sistpoty: Nafallo and AndyP: so you're volunteering? :P
(08:19:10 PM) Nafallo: sistpoty: tss. new job, new life, no time.
(08:19:11 PM) Nafallo: :-/
(08:19:13 PM) ***persia looks at AndyP, who might be able to define ping, and TheMuso who might want to document practices for Outstanding Merges
(08:19:13 PM) TheMuso: Note that merges that were done by core devs are likely toucable, as they have more important thigns to do, with the exception of StevenK and Hobbsee.
(08:19:52 PM) minghua: Poor LaserJock. :-P
(08:19:54 PM) AndyP: persia: i'll give it a go
(08:19:59 PM) TheMuso: persia: I'll give it a shot.
(08:20:08 PM) persia: AndyP: TheMuso: Thanks.
(08:20:22 PM) Fujitsu: People competing to write documentation? I never thought I'd see the day.
(08:20:37 PM) AndyP: TheMuso: ok you out rank me :)
(08:20:47 PM) sistpoty: Nafallo: he, I've got a job for the first time in my life now... too few time for ubuntu left here as well :(
(08:20:51 PM) TheMuso: AndyP: You were asked to define ping
(08:20:53 PM) persia: next item: setting a time and date for the next MOTU meeting.  At out last meeting, ScottK suggested we should alternate by 12 hours for each meeting, making the next 27th July, 12:00 UTC.  Any thoughts?
(08:21:07 PM) persia: s/out/our/
(08:21:40 PM) Nafallo: sistpoty: know the feeling.
(08:21:49 PM) minghua: I don't know if alternate by 8 hours and have 3-meeting cycle makes more sense.  Just a thought.
(08:22:07 PM) AndyP: TheMuso: yes, i'll think and talk to you about it before the next meeting
(08:22:24 PM) Nafallo: what does the other meetings use?
(08:24:04 PM) TheMuso: ok
(08:24:07 PM) TheMuso: persia: +1 for time.
(08:24:24 PM) sistpoty left the room (quit: Nick collision from services.).
(08:24:31 PM) sistpoty [n=sistpoty@ubuntu/member/sistpoty] entered the room.
(08:24:44 PM) persia: Anyone else want to propose a time/date?
(08:25:09 PM) ajmitch: nope
(08:25:17 PM) zul: nope
(08:25:26 PM) sistpoty: nope
(08:25:27 PM) Nafallo: nope
(08:25:32 PM) persia: OK.  The next meeting will be 27th July, 12:00 UTC.  Any volunteers to send the annoucements?
(08:26:10 PM) TheMuso: How soon before the meeting should they go out?
(08:26:18 PM) ajmitch: at least a day or two
(08:26:21 PM) persia: TheMuso: 1 week and 1 day, or so.
(08:26:29 PM) TheMuso: Hmm ok.
(08:26:34 PM) persia: TheMuso: Thanks.
(08:26:37 PM) TheMuso: I'll put my hand up.
(08:26:56 PM) persia: Next Item: Setting a date for the next Universe HUG Day.
(08:27:30 PM) ajmitch: do they work?
(08:28:02 PM) ***Nafallo reads Universal
(08:28:30 PM) persia: I think they need more publicity, and perhaps a plan for things to do.  MOTU/TODO has a list, but it's huge.  Targets like those bdmurry puts together might increase participation.
(08:30:02 PM) Fujitsu: How much non-MOTU participation has there been on such days in the past?
(08:31:52 PM) persia: I've not even seen much MOTU participation (see the #ubuntu-motu logs for 6th July for an example)
(08:32:44 PM) minghua: I agree more specific goals probably provide more motivation.
(08:33:27 PM) AndyP: perhaps we could set a date, put some extra effort into announcing it where it matters (planet, forums, sounder, #ubuntu etc.) and really pay attention to how it performs to review it at the next meeting
(08:33:32 PM) minghua: Debian's Bug Squash Party usually concentrate on RC bugs, I wish MOTU can have similar things.
(08:33:50 PM) persia: Any volunteers to coordinate with BugSquad, prepare a list of goals, set a date, and make an announcement?  20th July seems a fair target (two weeks from the last)
(08:33:56 PM) minghua: Core devs probably use milestones, but I don't think many universe packages use those.
(08:34:50 PM) sistpoty: can LP sort bugs according to number of subscriptions (to have some popcon like info)?
(08:34:56 PM) Fujitsu: sistpoty: Not at the moment.
(08:35:19 PM) Fujitsu: There's meant to be a votingish feature coming soon.
(08:35:24 PM) sistpoty: nice
(08:37:13 PM) persia: In the absence of such volunteers, any objections to having a Universe HUG day like the last on 20th July?
(08:37:49 PM) sistpoty: nope
(08:38:06 PM) Fujitsu: If we can advertise enough, sounds good.
(08:38:31 PM) persia: Fujitsu: Would you be willing to send announcements, get something in UMN, and on the fridge?
(08:38:53 PM) Fujitsu: I've got no idea how to do the last two, but I can probably work it out.
(08:38:58 PM) minghua: The worst case would be just no participation.  So no objections.
(08:38:58 PM) Fujitsu: UWN, you mean?
(08:39:17 PM) persia: Fujitsu: Thanks a lot (and yes, UWN - my frequency analysis seems to be broken)
(08:39:53 PM) persia: OK.  Next item: setting dates for the next REVU days.  Are Mondays good?  Shall we do two again, or is one better?
(08:41:17 PM) TheMuso: Two is good, and I think we need a list of packages that are close to being uploaded.
(08:41:27 PM) TheMuso: ready for upload even.
(08:42:18 PM) minghua: A wiki page that an MOTU can say "this looks good to me, asking for a second advocate?"
(08:42:34 PM) minghua: Or is that already possible to filter on REVU page?
(08:42:40 PM) persia: minghua: That's visible in REVU for any uploads with (1) in place.
(08:43:16 PM) TheMuso: But I am thinking of packages that don't have an advocate yet, but could, with a little work from the uploader.
(08:43:43 PM) minghua: persia: I see.
(08:44:12 PM) minghua: Would be nice to have (0.5). :-P
(08:44:45 PM) sistpoty: patches are welcome :P (and an active maintainer replacing me as well *g*)
(08:44:47 PM) persia: How about a change to REVU practices, asking REVUers to report advocation on #ubuntu-motu?
(08:45:08 PM) TheMuso: Sounds ok to me.
(08:45:31 PM) ***ScottK says hi.
(08:45:35 PM) ***persia volunteers to update the REVU wiki page to reflect that
(08:45:36 PM) sistpoty: hi ScottK
(08:46:50 PM) persia: OK.  Unless there is more discussion, we'll have REVU days on the 16th and 23rd.  Any volunteers to send an annoucement about them?
(08:48:03 PM) ***sistpoty can do this
(08:48:08 PM) persia: sistpoty: Thanks.
(08:48:25 PM) persia: Next Item: Setting a time & date for MOTU Q&A sessions.
(08:48:43 PM) ***TheMuso was around for a previous one, and didn't see any action.
(08:48:49 PM) TheMuso: i.e one this last week.
(08:48:53 PM) ajmitch: again, have these been useful?
(08:48:59 PM) TheMuso: ajmitch: aye
(08:49:07 PM) TheMuso: as in, the same question.
(08:50:03 PM) persia: Shall we stop advertising special sessions, instead encouraging people to ask in #ubuntu-motu anytime?  Would announcing that the Q&A session is underway in #ubuntu-motu help?
(08:50:20 PM) Fujitsu: Shall we start running around and panicing because we have almost no new contributors?
(08:50:32 PM) ***ajmitch tends not to visit Yet Another Channel
(08:50:35 PM) ajmitch: Fujitsu: yes
(08:50:47 PM) TheMuso: I think if people have a question, encourage them to ask it, and if they aren't going to be around, for them to possibly leave a mail address so somebody can contact them?
(08:50:49 PM) persia: ajmitch: We moved them to #ubuntu-motu in the last meeting.
(08:51:05 PM) minghua: And worse, we are losing old ones.
(08:51:18 PM) persia: Fujitsu: I've seen a couple new names in the past month.  It's just slow, probably because of school schedules in much of the world.
(08:51:21 PM) Fujitsu: Right, we're pretty much dead. Yay.
(08:52:03 PM) Kioshen: Well I thing you guys do a pretty good job already trying to bring new people in
(08:52:09 PM) Kioshen: s/thing/think
(08:53:31 PM) Kioshen: Prodding people to go at #ubuntu-motu for questions should be enough, maybe do a special session at the start of a new cycle too
(08:53:58 PM) sistpoty: Kioshen: sounds like a good idea to me
(08:54:18 PM) Kioshen: I really liked the Open Week thingie too
(08:54:56 PM) Kioshen: maybe not that big but at the start of a cycle it should be enough to kick start interest
(08:55:19 PM) persia: OK.  Let's have a last session at 0:00 and 12:00 UTC for July, and create a proposal for active Q&A during the beginning of the cycle to be discussed at the next meeting, as I don't think stopping Q&A sessions should happen without an agenda item.
(08:55:20 PM) Kioshen: the mentors program should keep people going
(08:56:03 PM) persia: s/July/July 26/
(08:56:03 PM) sistpoty: right... have there been any ubuntu-school sessions lately (I guess I was thinking at these actually)
(08:56:19 PM) Fujitsu: motu-school? I haven't seen one of them this year.
(08:56:23 PM) TheMuso: Me neither.
(08:56:45 PM) sistpoty: ha... even got the name wrong *g*
(08:56:59 PM) Kioshen: maybe fleshing out more the recipe section should be better
(08:57:21 PM) Kioshen: people could look it up whenever they could
(08:57:23 PM) minghua: Recipe is persia's recent work, right?
(08:57:35 PM) persia: minghua: No, dholbach deserves credit for that.
(08:58:38 PM) ajmitch: Fujitsu: other times that we've tried school sessions few people were interested
(08:58:56 PM) Fujitsu: ajmitch: I noticed that :(
(08:58:59 PM) TheMuso: I wonder whether most people perceive the barrier of entry to doing MOTU work is way to high...
(08:59:12 PM) sistpoty: ajmitch: I guess people would be interested if sessions were e.g. before merges on the topic how to merge etc.
(08:59:21 PM) TheMuso: ...and that we don't use things like checkinstall *shudder*
(08:59:35 PM) ajmitch: TheMuso: good point, we should switch to checkinstall
(08:59:35 PM) Fujitsu: TheMuso: I know, we need to accept checkinstalled packages.
(08:59:36 PM) sistpoty: (as in at the begining of a new work period of a cycle)
(09:00:01 PM) TheMuso: Fujitsu, ajmitch, I just think people don't understand why we do it the supposed hard way.
(09:00:15 PM) TheMuso: And think its too hard in any case.
(09:00:18 PM) ***Fujitsu wonders where Debian gets all its contributors.
(09:00:18 PM) ajmitch: because we're mean
(09:01:10 PM) ajmitch: debian is known as a more technical distro
(09:01:12 PM) Kioshen: Fujitsu: because it's upstream for so many people ?
(09:01:29 PM) minghua: TheMuso: I also feel the barrier of keep doing MOTU work is a bit high, as policies and procedures keep changing.
(09:02:01 PM) TheMuso: minghua: Yeah, but with software evolution, and collaboration, things are always going to keep changing.
(09:03:08 PM) minghua: Fujitsu: Because Debian has "if you want to maintain this package, you'd better be using it and care about it a lot" policy.  I don't know how they got that many people either, though.
(09:03:20 PM) persia: Any volunteers to draft a recruitment plan for discussion, perhaps including motu-school, Q&A sessions, Ubuntu Open Week, and MOTU/Recipes?
(09:03:29 PM) minghua: Probably just because they have existed forever.
(09:03:58 PM) minghua: TheMuso: I know there's not much can be done about it.  I am not complaining, either.
(09:04:31 PM) sistpoty: minghua: iirc debian wondered how ubuntu did get that much contributors not too long ago, right?
(09:04:49 PM) Fujitsu: sistpoty: Debian is very deceived, then.
(09:05:07 PM) sistpoty: or we are as well? *g*
(09:05:16 PM) minghua: sistpoty: I don't recally such a thing. :-P
(09:05:27 PM) minghua: s/recally/recall/
(09:05:36 PM) Kioshen: Probably most distro is always looking for more people :)
(09:06:15 PM) sistpoty: ok, back to topic, shall we?
(09:06:25 PM) persia: OK.  Getting back to the agenda: Any objections to 0:00 and 12:00 UTC on 26th July (two weeks from the last)?  Any volunteers to draft a proposal to replace MOTU Q&A sessions?
(09:07:13 PM) ScottK: we need a proposal to stop scheduling them?
(09:07:21 PM) ScottK: Why not just stop.
(09:07:30 PM) persia: ScottK: Yes, or at least a non-fixed agenda item to remove them from the fixed agenda items.
(09:07:45 PM) ***ScottK moves we just decide to do that now.
(09:07:49 PM) persia: ScottK: It may be that someone not attending this meeting has an interest in the Q&A sessions.
(09:07:50 PM) Fujitsu: Right, anybody have any objections to destroying MOTU Q&A sessions?
(09:08:02 PM) sistpoty: how about raising the topic on the ML and setting it as topic for next meeting as well?
(09:08:10 PM) persia: sistpoty +1
(09:08:13 PM) Fujitsu: sistpoty: +1
(09:08:16 PM) ScottK: Well I think the level of interest has been pretty well established by the lack of attendence.
(09:08:16 PM) Kioshen: sistpoty: +1
(09:08:33 PM) ScottK: -1: Bureacratic overkill.
(09:09:22 PM) minghua: ScottK: As long as you are not asked to write the mail to list, why object?  Maybe -0?
(09:09:32 PM) persia: sistpoty's suggestion passes, with four voting in favour, 1 voting against, and 85 abstentions
(09:09:54 PM) Fujitsu: 85?
(09:09:57 PM) ScottK: Well I think one reason people are reluctant to contribute is to many rules and to much process.
(09:10:03 PM) TheMuso: sistpoty: +1
(09:10:09 PM) ScottK: 84
(09:10:19 PM) Fujitsu: Woah, 90 with upload privileges...
(09:10:28 PM) persia: Fujitsu: No, just meeting attendees.
(09:10:49 PM) ajmitch: heh
(09:10:49 PM) minghua: ScottK: I agree.  But I think without those rules and processes, things will get worse.
(09:10:57 PM) Fujitsu: persia: Yes, but I just noticed we had so many MOTU.
(09:11:02 PM) ScottK: It's a balance.
(09:11:11 PM) ***minghua doubts ubotu has voting right. :-P
(09:11:13 PM) Fujitsu: minghua: Worse?
(09:11:13 PM) sistpoty: ScottK: I don't mind a vote now... I just haven't made up my mind enough to even vote a clear +1 yet
(09:11:20 PM) Fujitsu: How can things get much worse?
(09:11:32 PM) TheMuso: Fujitsu: no procedures/policies?
(09:11:45 PM) Kioshen: Fujitsu: QA seems relevant to me
(09:11:51 PM) Fujitsu: Some of them are necessary.
(09:11:59 PM) Fujitsu: Kioshen: Q&A, not QA.
(09:12:02 PM) minghua: Fujitsu: You don't think that if we say "MOTU can upload however he/she likes, no policy at all", things won't get worse?
(09:12:12 PM) Kioshen: Fujitsu: QA as in Quality Assurance
(09:12:31 PM) Fujitsu: Kioshen: Right, but that's not what we're talking about here...
(09:12:39 PM) Fujitsu: minghua: We need some policy, sure.
(09:12:56 PM) minghua: Fujitsu: Yeah, so as ScottK said, it's a balance.
(09:13:30 PM) ***Fujitsu has to run off and unload the dishwasher now, so brb.
(09:13:32 PM) persia: That's it for our agenda.  Thanks for attending.  Anyone willing to draft the minutes?
(09:13:42 PM) minghua: I agree the current policies/procedure is a bit higher than needed and scares away people, but I don't know where the balance it.
(09:13:43 PM) ***ScottK thinks the less required structure (like mentors is not required) we have that doesn't affect package quality the better.
(09:14:18 PM) minghua: I volunteer for drafting minutes, if no one else does.
(09:14:25 PM) ajmitch: minghua: thanks
(09:14:26 PM) persia: minghua: Thanks.
(09:14:51 PM) sistpoty: thanks everyone and thanks persia for hosting and minghua for the minutes :=
(09:14:56 PM) sistpoty: +)
(09:14:59 PM) TheMuso: Thanks folks.
(09:15:10 PM) TheMuso: Now we return you to your scheduled programming...

MeetingLogs/MOTU/20070714 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:38:44 by localhost)