(12:01:15 AM) ScottK: If someone would post a link to an agenda it we have one, that'd be cool.
(12:01:23 AM) nixternal: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/MOTU/Meetings
(12:01:26 AM) nixternal: no items!
(12:01:34 AM) ajmitch: cool, let's go home
(12:01:36 AM) ajmitch: ;)
(12:01:36 AM) nixternal: except "agree on date and time of next meeting"
(12:01:56 AM) ***ajmitch has an item or two to add, if possible
(12:02:10 AM) ScottK: Sounds like you're on ajmitch.
(12:02:18 AM) ajmitch: we'll wait for the latecomers
(12:02:51 AM) ajmitch: if any show
(12:02:57 AM) nixternal: good, I am going to go grab a tea
(12:03:48 AM) gpocentek: OMG, the wiki pages have turn BLUE
(12:04:06 AM) ***gpocentek drops the 'k' from the url
(12:04:08 AM) Toadstool: heya everybody
(12:04:17 AM) ajmitch: hi gpocentek, Toadstool :)
(12:04:26 AM) nixternal: boo gpocentek
(12:04:28 AM) nixternal: hiya Toadstool
(12:04:29 AM) gpocentek: hello ajmitch :)
(12:04:34 AM) Toadstool: hey ajmitch
(12:04:37 AM) gpocentek: nixternal: ;)
(12:05:06 AM) nixternal: I forget that I have my browser automatically do wiki.kubuntu.org when I do ubw: in konqui
(12:05:10 AM) Rowan22: ah the meeting is the 16th
(12:05:12 AM) Rowan22: nevermind :P
(12:05:30 AM) ajmitch: ok, I trust everyone has been watching https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule
(12:05:31 AM) Toadstool: the agenda is quite… empty :)
(12:05:57 AM) ajmitch: so we have UVF coming up Real Soon Now, and not accepting any new packages soon after that
(12:06:15 AM) superm1: i thought new packages went till the 30th, but uvf was the 16th
(12:06:18 AM) ajmitch: therefore, there needs to be a nice focus on bugfixing before release
(12:06:28 AM) ajmitch: superm1: hence why I pasted the url
(12:07:05 AM) ***superm1 needs to learn to read the whole sentence ajmitch types
(12:07:13 AM) ajmitch: there's been great work on keeping the u-u-s queue short, and people have obviously been doing lots of bug work already
(12:07:15 AM) RAOF: Na, skimming is fine :)
(12:07:17 AM) ***nixternal has already started going through his packages and bugfixing
(12:07:35 AM) ajmitch: is the current TODO list good enough?
(12:07:40 AM) nixternal: should we schedule a REVU day or 2 prior?
(12:07:48 AM) ajmitch: nixternal: we'd need REVU for that
(12:07:54 AM) nixternal: oh ya
(12:07:59 AM) nixternal: that should be up any time now
(12:08:17 AM) Rowan22 is now known as Rowan
(12:08:19 AM) nixternal: the transfer has occurred iirc, they just need to finish recovering the backups
(12:08:24 AM) ajmitch: the box may be, but we then have to have revu working properly on there
(12:08:26 AM) Toadstool: where "any time now" means some time before 2010?
(12:08:34 AM) nixternal: yup :)
(12:09:02 AM) nixternal: well I have noticed some of the sites that were taken out come back momentarily, only to go back down (i.e. my LoCo site)
(12:09:14 AM) ajmitch: we used to have a plan to update the todo list weekly, to make sure that things were being caught
(12:09:35 AM) ***ajmitch can't really talk much, since he hasn't been active
(12:09:51 AM) Toadstool: me neither :/
(12:10:04 AM) nixternal: ajmitch: where is this todo list located? wanna make sure I am looking at the correct spot
(12:10:12 AM) nixternal: nevermind, I am
(12:10:15 AM) ajmitch: wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO
(12:10:20 AM) nixternal: it says bigger than anything in the top right hand corner :)
(12:11:16 AM) ajmitch: oh, and there's an expectation that gutsy+1 will be an LTS release :)
(12:11:34 AM) RAOF: Is that confirmed, or just a rumour?
(12:11:43 AM) ajmitch: a substantial rumour
(12:11:48 AM) ajmitch: based on reports from ubuntulive
(12:11:53 AM) superm1: it was announced at ulive
(12:12:10 AM) ScottK: Based on sabdfl said it in a speech isn't a bad source.
(12:12:19 AM) nixternal: it was anounced by sabdfl it will be
(12:12:21 AM) nixternal: hehe
(12:12:25 AM) ajmitch: I think we could almost count it as 'confirmed'
(12:12:28 AM) Toadstool: there were suggestions that we don't accept any REVU packages during gutsy+1 dev cycle (if it's an LTS) and focus on fixing/polishing what we already have
(12:12:31 AM) persia: Wasn't the plan always for LTS at Dapper+4?
(12:12:36 AM) Toadstool: what do you guys think?
(12:12:41 AM) nixternal: ajmitch: every 2 years iirc will be the next LTS
(12:12:53 AM) ajmitch: persia: no
(12:13:01 AM) persia: Toadstool: What about new packages from Debian?  Perhaps instead, only accept from REVU < DIF?
(12:13:03 AM) ScottK: Toadstool: I think we get a lot of new people in via new packages.
(12:13:04 AM) nixternal: Toadstool: I am all for that actually...
(12:13:09 AM) ScottK: It'd hurt recruiting.
(12:13:13 AM) ajmitch: persia: it was "when the underlying free software projects feel stable(ish)"
(12:13:26 AM) Toadstool: ScottK: that's a problem, yeah
(12:13:28 AM) persia: ajmitch: Ah.  That makes sense.
(12:13:29 AM) ajmitch: ScottK: I think we get a lot of new packages in, and a small fraction of those people stay around
(12:13:42 AM) RAOF: I think only accepting packages though debian sounds a good compromise.
(12:13:46 AM) Toadstool: persia: NEW from Debian are fine, they have a maintainer assigned
(12:14:08 AM) ***ajmitch thinks that it will be hard to do it that way
(12:14:12 AM) RAOF: We can still help people get into Debian.
(12:14:12 AM) persia: Toadstool: Um.  There are *lots* of packages that only were uploaded to Debian once.
(12:14:38 AM) ajmitch: since there will be plenty of software that takes weeks to get through debian queues, and plenty of new crack that people will really love to have in
(12:14:57 AM) ajmitch: at this stage, some new crack may depend on stuff that only ubuntu had
(12:14:59 AM) Toadstool: crack in a LTS is evil :)
(12:15:05 AM) ajmitch: it'll happen
(12:15:10 AM) Toadstool: of course
(12:15:12 AM) ScottK: Maybe I have a disjointed perspective, but I wouldn't be here if it weren't for new package packaging.
(12:15:16 AM) ajmitch: we're talking about universe still
(12:15:25 AM) persia: For LTS polish, let's just have UniverseNewFreeze == DebianImportFreeze.  That allows some crack, but gives time to polish it.
(12:15:34 AM) ajmitch: persia: agreed
(12:15:48 AM) ScottK: The crack is equally unsupported in Universer LTS or not.
(12:15:49 AM) gpocentek: persia: good idea
(12:15:50 AM) ajmitch: sabdfl's vision for universe has always seemed to be that it's a crack dumping ground
(12:16:02 AM) RAOF: Will the LTS have an extended release cycle again?
(12:16:08 AM) ***ajmitch remembers the days of apt-get.org imports :)
(12:16:13 AM) ScottK: Then sabdfl can show up and package crack.
(12:16:16 AM) ***persia hopes for 6-month LTS release cycle
(12:16:35 AM) ajmitch: RAOF: if so, I heard that it may only be for a couple of weeks rather than 6
(12:16:35 AM) ***RAOF does too
(12:16:36 AM) ***nixternal sends persia over to Linspire
(12:16:39 AM) nixternal: ;)
(12:16:46 AM) ajmitch: but this was awhile ago that it was being discussed
(12:16:59 AM) ScottK: ajmitch: In my view the volunteers decide.  I'm only minimally interested in other's perspectives.
(12:17:00 AM) nixternal: 6 month LTS cycle would be insane
(12:17:22 AM) gpocentek: not if we freeze the archive for new packages soon in the cycle
(12:17:24 AM) RAOF: nixternal: We could just freeze earlier?
(12:17:30 AM) persia: Why insane?  If we set NUF and UVF early enough, it should be fine.
(12:17:37 AM) nixternal: true
(12:17:43 AM) persia: s/NUF/UNF/
(12:18:09 AM) ScottK: Here's a thought ...
(12:18:13 AM) Toadstool: freezing early could be an interesting trade-off between not accepting anything and what we usually do
(12:18:42 AM) ScottK: After Debian Import Freeze, no more NEW packages with MOTU for maintainer.  If it's going to get in, it needs an individual with an Ubuntu address to take responsibility.
(12:18:53 AM) ScottK: That ought to slow things up to the important stuff.
(12:19:02 AM) ScottK: Without completely closing stuff out.
(12:19:05 AM) RAOF: Sounds good.
(12:19:10 AM) persia: ScottK +1
(12:19:22 AM) nixternal: ya, that isn't to shabby of an idea actually
(12:19:26 AM) Toadstool: I'm all for it
(12:19:45 AM) ajmitch: ScottK: what about new packages synced from debian after DIF?
(12:19:50 AM) persia: Separately, I'd still like to suggest early UNF and UVF to give time for polish.
(12:20:04 AM) ajmitch: hello LaserJock sir
(12:20:05 AM) nixternal: shh, he's here
(12:20:12 AM) LaserJock: pfft
(12:20:16 AM) nixternal: hehe
(12:20:16 AM) LaserJock: hi all
(12:20:22 AM) Toadstool: hi LaserJock
(12:20:23 AM) nixternal: wasabi homeskillet
(12:20:36 AM) ajmitch: hi StevenK
(12:20:44 AM) ***StevenK waves
(12:20:51 AM) Toadstool: hi StevenK
(12:20:53 AM) ajmitch: ScottK: told you we should wait for latecomers :)
(12:21:20 AM) ScottK: ajmitch: If you run meetings by waiting for latecomers, that just gets you more latecomers for the next meeting.
(12:21:38 AM) ScottK: Besides, it was nice of them not to be here while we were volunteering them for stuff.
(12:21:48 AM) LaserJock: :-)
(12:21:50 AM) Toadstool: hehe
(12:22:17 AM) ajmitch: StevenK: what are your opinions on new packages for the next lts release?
(12:22:30 AM) ajmitch: assuming that you have opinions, of course ;)
(12:22:52 AM) persia: Regarding requiring non-default @ubuntu maintainers for NEW packages post DIF for gutsy +1, could we not just institute a two-approval MOTU sync request to cover that case?  I think the worry is more about REVU.
(12:23:08 AM) ajmitch: persia: we have a hard enough time getting stuff reviewed as it is
(12:23:37 AM) persia: ajmitch: Right.  I'm only talking about your case of Debian syncs post-DIF with an early UNF.
(12:23:59 AM) ScottK: persia: I meant for NEW to Ubuntu, not syncs from Debian.
(12:24:24 AM) ajmitch: ScottK: right, I meant importing packages that just made it into debian recently
(12:24:24 AM) persia: ScottK: What about syncs from Debian that are NEW to Ubuntu?  I thought that was ajmitch's corner case.
(12:24:41 AM) ajmitch: given the enthusiasm for pushing new stuff to debian instead of ubuntu
(12:25:13 AM) LaserJock: is there an agenda for today?
(12:25:19 AM) Toadstool: nope
(12:25:25 AM) persia: LaserJock: Only Default.  This is "other business" :)
(12:25:28 AM) ScottK: I think requiring a maintainer change for a new package from Debian sets us up to have to review a lot of stuff to see if it needs to be merged later.
(12:25:34 AM) ajmitch: the agenda is whatever we feel like discussing
(12:26:07 AM) ajmitch: ScottK: then don't require a maintainer change, I was asking whether you'd still allow them in, given that they'd be maintained in debian
(12:26:20 AM) ScottK: Yes I would.
(12:26:28 AM) ajmitch: until when?
(12:26:43 AM) ScottK: UVF at least.
(12:26:52 AM) ScottK: Yes, I'd say to UVF.
(12:27:01 AM) ***ajmitch can see 3 different freeze dates being juggled around here - debian import freeze, UVF, new package freeze
(12:27:33 AM) persia: So, the plan would be to not allow REVU NEW after DIF, and have identical UNF and UVF, but to have these earlier in the cycle (test 3?) to allow for more polish?
(12:27:57 AM) ScottK: But also we need some wiggle room for necessary exceptions.
(12:28:00 AM) Toadstool: sounds like a plan to me
(12:28:02 AM) RAOF: That's what I see.
(12:28:10 AM) ***ajmitch thinks that if we decide this, it should be communicated well to the outside community (eg forums)
(12:28:14 AM) persia: ScottK: Covered by FreezeExceptionProcess?
(12:28:21 AM) ScottK: I'd say use the UVFe process.
(12:28:22 AM) ScottK: Yes
(12:28:29 AM) ajmitch: lucky uvf team
(12:28:34 AM) ***persia thinks we have some time before the gutsy+1 cycle to review and communicate
(12:28:41 AM) ScottK: Saying No doesn't take long.
(12:28:52 AM) LaserJock: ScottK: +1
(12:29:03 AM) ScottK: We also need to get the core-devs to buy into this too.
(12:29:30 AM) ScottK: For Feisty, as an example, keescook uploaded apparmor to Universe VERY shortly before release.
(12:29:31 AM) ajmitch: good luck
(12:29:36 AM) persia: Even if core-dev doesn't follow these guidelines for main, we can have them for universe.
(12:29:59 AM) ajmitch: he means core-dev people uploading to universe
(12:30:04 AM) ajmitch: which often happens
(12:30:05 AM) ScottK: Not that it wasn't the right thing, but I think we need to get them to (generally) agree too.
(12:30:24 AM) ajmitch: in that case, if it breaks, they get to fix it
(12:30:46 AM) StevenK: Isn't that the universe way? You touched it last, etc etc
(12:30:50 AM) ScottK: Which kind of gets back to my if you upload it late, you get to put your name in the maintainer field idea
(12:30:57 AM) persia: Right.  Anyone want to formally add it to the agenda for the next meeting, with a draft proposal?  That seems the best way to get consensus (and a wider audience), and then we can send to -devel.
(12:31:20 AM) ajmitch: StevenK: sadly yes, and it happens a lot with revu
(12:31:29 AM) LaserJock: this is the NEW policy for Gutsy+1?
(12:31:35 AM) ScottK: Yes
(12:31:53 AM) persia: LaserJock: Only presuming it's LTS.
(12:31:58 AM) LaserJock: it is
(12:32:12 AM) StevenK: Oh, and to answer ajmitch's earlier question, I don't have an opinion about it at this point.
(12:32:35 AM) ScottK: I think we also need to work on removals prior to the LTS release too.
(12:32:37 AM) LaserJock: I'd really like us to limit NEW to specs and the like
(12:32:48 AM) ajmitch: LaserJock: tying everything new to specs?
(12:33:02 AM) StevenK: Even if Debian has gotten some really nice NEW stuff?
(12:33:06 AM) persia: LaserJock: The issue there is 1) Debian NEW, 2) recruiting, and 3) interest levels.
(12:33:07 AM) ***ajmitch can forsee a world of pain there
(12:33:15 AM) LaserJock: ajmitch: well, it makes sense if somebody is making a new package as a part of an approved spec that it should get in
(12:33:30 AM) StevenK: I agree with ajmitch. Limiting to specs will hurt. Badly.
(12:33:32 AM) persia: LaserJock: But should someone with a pet package need to get an approved spec to upload it?
(12:33:36 AM) ***ScottK can imagine telling people go upload to Debian, it's easier because there's less paperwork.
(12:33:40 AM) ajmitch: LaserJock: maybe using that limit when it comes to packages after the debian import freeze?
(12:33:46 AM) LaserJock: ajmitch: yes
(12:33:50 AM) ***persia can see for post-DIF
(12:33:56 AM) LaserJock: yes, yes
(12:34:00 AM) ScottK: Who has spec approval authority?
(12:34:04 AM) LaserJock: TB
(12:34:27 AM) LaserJock: I mean, I don't think we need a hard rule here
(12:34:27 AM) ScottK: I'd hate to see us punt Universe NEW decisions all the way to the TB.
(12:34:50 AM) ScottK: How about after DIF, if you want a NEW, you have to do a removal.
(12:34:55 AM) ScottK: that gets approved.
(12:34:57 AM) ScottK: first
(12:34:58 AM) LaserJock: well
(12:35:01 AM) persia: Actually, on review.  There's a reason UNF is so late in the cycle.  I don't think that TB would be happy with an earlier limit, given previous statements about universe stability.
(12:35:15 AM) LaserJock: ScottK: the spec is already approved by TB
(12:35:21 AM) ajmitch: persia: why wouldn't they be happier with it being earlier?
(12:35:24 AM) ScottK: Which spec?
(12:35:39 AM) LaserJock: ScottK: specs in general
(12:35:40 AM) LaserJock: sorry
(12:35:50 AM) persia: ajmitch: sabdfl's vision for universe has always seemed to be that it's a crack dumping ground
(12:35:55 AM) ScottK: That's what I don't like about it then.
(12:36:04 AM) LaserJock: ScottK: why?
(12:36:05 AM) ScottK: persia: So what?
(12:36:17 AM) ajmitch: persia: right, that's what I said earlier, but we do have to try & make some effort for QA where possible :)
(12:36:26 AM) ScottK: I don't think getting a mother may I to add a package at the TB level is a good/efficient idea.
(12:36:43 AM) ajmitch: it may take some negotiation to get this settled
(12:36:44 AM) ScottK: BTW, LP lets you set who the approver is.
(12:36:46 AM) LaserJock: ScottK: that's not how it would be, that's not what I"m saying
(12:36:49 AM) ScottK: OK.
(12:36:52 AM) persia: ajmitch: Sure.  I'm just not sure about the UNF == DIF unless there's a spec for non-LTS.  For LTS, it makes sense.
(12:37:09 AM) ScottK: LaserJock: Are you saying TB approves a spec that describes our plan?
(12:37:10 AM) ajmitch: persia: right, we're mostly trying to talk about LTS, I thought
(12:37:26 AM) LaserJock: ScottK: I'm saying, that specs get approved by the TB
(12:37:36 AM) ajmitch: ScottK: no, he means that for software that is being packaged, there will most likely be a spec approved weeks/months earlier
(12:37:38 AM) LaserJock: in order to implement them sometimes you gotta add a NEW package
(12:37:41 AM) persia: Ah.  My confusion then :)  For LTS, I'm happy with post-DIF NEW requiring a spec.
(12:37:54 AM) LaserJock: I think we should give people ample time to get those packages in
(12:38:00 AM) ScottK: OK.
(12:38:10 AM) ajmitch: except in the case that there's some new & shiny software released upstream that just missed DIF
(12:38:24 AM) ScottK: For which we have the freeze exception process.
(12:38:26 AM) persia: ajmitch: That's why we have Freeze Exceptions
(12:38:27 AM) RAOF: That's what UVFe is for.
(12:38:28 AM) ajmitch: LaserJock: right, we're just trying to find a decent balance
(12:38:36 AM) ***ajmitch gets jumped on
(12:38:42 AM) ScottK: I do think we need an explict focus on pre-LTS release removals.
(12:38:59 AM) LaserJock: so, NEW open until DIF, then UVFe (keeping in mind specs) until UVF?
(12:39:05 AM) ajmitch: removing broken junk?
(12:39:09 AM) ScottK: Yes.
(12:39:20 AM) persia: ScottK: How many removals do you see pending?  I went through the Ubuntu-only packages a couple months ago, and only found about 10 that needed to go.
(12:39:21 AM) ajmitch: so renaming UVF :)
(12:39:46 AM) LaserJock: well, UVF=NewPackagesFreeze
(12:39:46 AM) persia left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(12:39:57 AM) ScottK: persia: Dunno, but the gpgme package (not gpgme1.0) package has got to go as an example.
(12:39:57 AM) LaserJock: oh, no
(12:40:05 AM) LaserJock: DIF=NewPackagesFreeze
(12:40:36 AM) persia [n=persia@d165.HtokyoFL32.vectant.ne.jp] entered the room.
(12:40:55 AM) LaserJock: I'm just pretty emphatic that we need more time to work out bugs
(12:40:57 AM) ScottK:  persia: Dunno, but the gpgme package (not gpgme1.0) package has got to go as an example.
(12:41:13 AM) LaserJock: when people see LTS they really think it's LTS regardless of whether it's Universe or not
(12:41:19 AM) StevenK: ScottK: Sure, but we can do that prior to Gutsy releasing.
(12:41:37 AM) ScottK: StevenK: I agree, but I'm sure there is other cruft that can and should be killed.
(12:41:43 AM) ajmitch: LaserJock: yes, and we get yelled at by users
(12:41:44 AM) ScottK: We just don't normally focus on it.
(12:42:15 AM) LaserJock: I think after Beta maybe we should do the binary purge
(12:42:26 AM) ajmitch: yay for purges
(12:42:31 AM) persia: LaserJock: I'll agree to the need for time, but there's still also a need for new.  The time is the reason for considering early UNF, but without any NEW, we'd not be as interesting to the desktop crowd.
(12:42:57 AM) persia: ScottK: When you find cruft to be killed, please file a removal bug.
(12:42:57 AM) LaserJock: I don't think so much
(12:43:06 AM) StevenK: I've been doing NBS since Gutsy opened.
(12:43:13 AM) LaserJock: persia: what NEW is that exciting?
(12:43:14 AM) ScottK: persia: I will when I find it.  I just don't normally look for it.
(12:43:47 AM) LaserJock: I just think we just need to get a little picky about the packages we accept
(12:43:48 AM) persia: LaserJock: For gutsy?  There's all the media stuff, the ubuntustudio stuff, the mobile stuff, etc.  For gutsy+1, I don't know yet.
(12:44:05 AM) LaserJock: sure
(12:44:16 AM) LaserJock: but I think that stuff should be spec'd, no?
(12:44:24 AM) ajmitch: not everything can be forseen
(12:44:34 AM) LaserJock: no, that's what we have exceptions for
(12:44:43 AM) ScottK: And requiring to much paperwork will drive down participation.
(12:45:01 AM) ajmitch: stuff with specs has to go through the exact same exception process, just slightly more streamlined
(12:45:03 AM) ScottK: Remember that MOTUs can throttle NEWing very easily by just not reviewing.
(12:45:07 AM) LaserJock: well, I don't think we need a lot of participation in NEW
(12:45:15 AM) LaserJock: ScottK: but then we look bad
(12:45:24 AM) persia: If we have a better spec process (or just one with better documentation), I'm up for specs for NEW, but only post DIF.  Prior to that, we just want the latest everything cool, or we lose the everything cool moniker.
(12:45:31 AM) Toadstool: ScottK: I'd better have a little less new participation and a rock solid LTS release to be honest
(12:45:41 AM) LaserJock: I'd rather say to people, "Heah, we're trying to focus on LTS, so where only taking important NEW packages"
(12:45:49 AM) Toadstool: +1
(12:46:16 AM) superm1: how do you then deem what an important NEW package is LaserJock ?
(12:46:20 AM) ScottK: Toadstool: Agreed, but we need to continue to bring people in and sustain community interest, so there is a balance.
(12:46:22 AM) LaserJock: one, is specs
(12:46:34 AM) ScottK: One is do I want it;-)
(12:46:34 AM) LaserJock: and then I think MOTU can be wise about it
(12:46:38 AM) ***persia thinks defining "new" as "approved spec" is tricky, especially for the archive open.
(12:46:49 AM) LaserJock: Debian doesn't just accept every package either
(12:47:04 AM) LaserJock: people ask on debian-mentors all the time "How is this different than Y"
(12:47:11 AM) LaserJock: etc.
(12:47:13 AM) ***nixternal can testify to that
(12:47:18 AM) ScottK: LaserJock: Debian accepts any package that's legal and you can convince a DD to upload.
(12:47:38 AM) LaserJock: people should, in some way think about the usefulness of what they're uploading
(12:47:41 AM) ***nixternal can attest to that as well (it includes sneaking around and using an insider)
(12:47:46 AM) LaserJock: sometimes I get the idea that people just upload to upload
(12:48:00 AM) persia: I thought I read somewhere that Debian was only supposed to have one o two good examples for any purpose, whereas Ubuntu didn't have that restriction (but this might have been in the apt-get.org sync days, so may no longer be correct).
(12:48:27 AM) gpocentek: LaserJock: that's true
(12:48:27 AM) LaserJock: persia: Main has that restriction, I don't know that Debian does
(12:48:51 AM) LaserJock: I'm just saying that I think we can emphasis the things that will help us get LTS in shape
(12:49:13 AM) nixternal: we could always add one more repository to our current 4 :)   incoming - let it be known that the packages have not been tested fully except that they build and have worked for those who have tested :)
(12:49:14 AM) LaserJock: and get people who are wanting to contribute directed that way
(12:49:39 AM) ajmitch: nixternal: well we'll have PPAs if people want to upload & build stuff :)
(12:49:52 AM) gpocentek: PPA?
(12:49:58 AM) ScottK: ajmitch: Ubuntu does not have PPAs.  Launchpad has PPAs.
(12:49:59 AM) LaserJock: ajmitch: uggg
(12:50:04 AM) ajmitch: personal package archives, part of launchpad
(12:50:09 AM) RAOF: ajmitch: properly unsigned, so people get warned
(12:50:10 AM) persia: LaserJock: Makes sense.  From a community perspective, a focus on bugfix/polish rather than merge/sync/new might change the recruitment, but does meet LTS needs.
(12:50:13 AM) nixternal: yup, but go tell someone in #ubuntu to browse the PPAs for new software...or someone who is interested in MOTU'land to setup a PPA
(12:50:16 AM) ajmitch: ScottK: I'm sorry, I forgot your hatred of LP
(12:50:24 AM) ScottK: Not hatred.
(12:50:31 AM) ScottK: I think it's an important distinction.
(12:50:36 AM) LaserJock: persia: I'm not convinced that it affects recruitment that much
(12:50:38 AM) ScottK: LP is a separate Canonical product
(12:50:40 AM) LaserJock: I could be wrong though
(12:51:00 AM) ScottK: If there is package X in a PPA, what does it have to do with Ubuntu the distro?
(12:51:09 AM) LaserJock: it's built on Ubuntu
(12:51:16 AM) LaserJock: it in an Ubuntu repo
(12:51:19 AM) ajmitch: because a package in a PPA is built against the packages in a specific ubuntu release
(12:51:21 AM) persia: LaserJock: Hard to say.  Depends on the nature of contributors, I suppose.  It probably doesn't hurt to change the focus once in a while, just to have a good mix of people.
(12:51:25 AM) ScottK: It's NOT an Ubuntu repo
(12:51:36 AM) nixternal: OK, recruitment...it isn't like I have seen a ton of people coming in and contributing...so because of that the "it hurts recruitment" isn't all that strong..unless of course I am missing all of these new recruits
(12:51:49 AM) LaserJock: ScottK: it's built on Ubuntu packages and has Ubuntu repo structure
(12:52:05 AM) persia: nixternal: It's a timing thing.  There were heaps of people after UbuntuOpenWeek, and the same should be expected for the next release.
(12:52:08 AM) ScottK: Yes, but it's got no controls, no review, nothing.
(12:52:28 AM) nixternal: persia: that is true...but how many are sticking around?
(12:52:29 AM) ScottK: It's no different than I put random crack in a repo on my web server.
(12:52:29 AM) LaserJock: ScottK: no, but that's what people will be using
(12:52:34 AM) persia: A PPA is an Ubuntu-compatible archive, targeted to the development release, and provided by Launchpad.
(12:52:46 AM) ScottK: Agreed.  Not part of Ubuntu.
(12:52:54 AM) LaserJock: persia: targeted towards any Ubuntu release
(12:52:57 AM) StevenK: ScottK: Exactly. It just means you get to use the PPA Xen buildds.
(12:53:02 AM) persia: LaserJock: Really?  Cool!
(12:53:03 AM) LaserJock: ScottK: no, but people don't care
(12:53:10 AM) nixternal: recruitment for one or two packages is somewhat of a waste of resources...I think recruitment wise we need to seek the long term recruit how has some fairly decent goals
(12:53:26 AM) ScottK: Personally, I think we are going get all kinds of complaints about PPA stuff breaking systems and people will not understand the distinction.
(12:53:26 AM) LaserJock: anyway, we *can* use PPA for "official" Ubuntu activities
(12:53:34 AM) RAOF: persia: Yeah, amaranth's been using his PPA to temporarily backport compiz to gutsy.
(12:53:42 AM) nixternal: now you want to see recruitment, take a look at the Ubuntu doc project in the past week and a half..now that was some insane recruitment
(12:53:45 AM) LaserJock: ScottK: yep, I've expressed that complaint many times to LP devs
(12:53:46 AM) persia: nixternal: I'd disagree.  I come from bugfixing, but there are many very active contributors who do lots of things that came from NEW packaging.
(12:53:47 AM) RAOF: persia: Ugh. s/gutsy/feisty/
(12:54:14 AM) LaserJock: persia: you sure? One that really did mostly NEW?
(12:54:28 AM) ***persia points at ScottK
(12:54:31 AM) LaserJock: it seems like the people that stick with it end up doing more bug fixing
(12:54:32 AM) nixternal: persia: so you are looking at an "overall" contribution recruit then..gotcha
(12:54:33 AM) ScottK: Exactly.
(12:54:37 AM) ***RAOF started off with NEW
(12:54:54 AM) gpocentek: LaserJock: but most people start with NEW packages
(12:54:54 AM) ScottK: Most of the people I've seen apply for MOTU after me showed up doing new packages
(12:54:56 AM) ***gpocentek did
(12:55:01 AM) nixternal: see, in the 2 years around here, I have seen the same faces, or at least the same nicks sitting over there ->
(12:55:03 AM) LaserJock: gpocentek: but should they?
(12:55:09 AM) ScottK: I'm not saying they should, but they do.
(12:55:11 AM) RAOF: Not entirely "very active", though :/
(12:55:16 AM) LaserJock: I think it's sorta crazy to dump people into NEW first thing
(12:55:20 AM) persia: I'd disagree that "most people" come from either side.  I've seen lots of examples of both.
(12:55:21 AM) gpocentek: LaserJock: not only NEW
(12:55:25 AM) gpocentek: LaserJock: agreed
(12:55:25 AM) LaserJock: some people while be able to handle it
(12:55:31 AM) LaserJock: *will
(12:55:33 AM) ***ajmitch started off with new packages in debian :)
(12:55:55 AM) LaserJock: but as far as getting contributors, I think we're better of encouraging bug fixing and merging
(12:56:03 AM) gpocentek: it seems easier for people to start with NEW
(12:56:04 AM) LaserJock: as we *need* a lot of that done
(12:56:14 AM) nixternal: LaserJock: it is crazy, but truthfully, packaging from scratch is a great way to learn...if I didn't start messing around by grabbing everything from KDE-Look.org and packaging it on my own, merges and syncs would have gotten me nowhere (works for me(tm) kind of point though)
(12:56:22 AM) persia: I think it's easier for people to make a small modification.  They don't need to understand debian/ as much.
(12:56:22 AM) ScottK: But for recruiting, what we need done, doesn't matter.
(12:56:27 AM) gpocentek: LaserJock: we all agree anout that, the question is, how do we do that ? :)
(12:56:35 AM) ScottK: It's what people want to do that causes recruiting.
(12:56:38 AM) gpocentek: s/anout/about/
(12:56:45 AM) LaserJock: gpocentek: giving people small, easy, and specific things to do
(12:57:09 AM) gpocentek: we have already wiki pagesn docsn links for that
(12:57:11 AM) persia: merges / syncs are a poor way to learn, but real bugfixes (spelling mistakes, desktop files, one-line changes, etc.) are a good way.
(12:57:19 AM) gpocentek: it doesn't seem to brin lots of people
(12:57:23 AM) gpocentek: bring*
(12:57:28 AM) LaserJock: saying "Go after this giant bug list" is about as bad as sending them to NEW packages
(12:57:45 AM) nixternal: that is good, but by doing so we need to make sure we aren't keeping the same crew on small merges...it would be nice if the receptionists would start to hand out more difficult tasks after say a month, or if it is noticed this new recruit is kicking arse, bump up the difficulty
(12:57:45 AM) gpocentek: yes that's right
(12:57:58 AM) persia: gpocentek: Depends on the viewpoint.  There's a number of people who add a small patch to a bug, and these people could get more involved.  Some are discouraged because the patch sits for a while.
(12:58:07 AM) ajmitch: nixternal: sure, if there are people with the time & ability to coordinate
(12:58:35 AM) persia: I also think getting more contributors to package/review the ~2500 patches outstanding on LP would be a useful introductory activity.
(12:58:36 AM) nixternal: I am willing to help out a little bit if I can...but I am only one person, well 2 if you count weight :)
(12:59:42 AM) ajmitch: I wonder how many people I'd count as then :)
(01:00:10 AM) nixternal: I would say >200 pounds you are reaching the 2nd person mark
(01:00:20 AM) LaserJock: we need to develop the tools/process to make this work, I think it can be done
(01:00:27 AM) LaserJock: ajmitch's critical bugs list was great
(01:00:33 AM) LaserJock: our tags on LP help
(01:01:03 AM) LaserJock: I think what we need mostly is a momentum push to hit something hard
(01:01:05 AM) ajmitch: persia: of course most of those >2500 bugs with patches should have u-u-s or u-m-s subscribed
(01:01:21 AM) ***ajmitch wonders how many people used that rc bugs list 
(01:01:44 AM) ***ScottK uses it.
(01:01:52 AM) persia: ajmitch: I'd disagree.  Most of them aren't debdiffs.
(01:02:17 AM) ajmitch: persia: then there should be some way to get them in the right form & uploaded
(01:02:30 AM) LaserJock: ajmitch: well, we have to push it, just having it exist is enough sometimes
(01:02:41 AM) LaserJock: regarding your list
(01:02:46 AM) nixternal: I see 290 bugs with patches..unless there is an even greater list
(01:03:10 AM) persia: ajmitch: Sure.  I've been pointing people at the patch tag, and the advanced search for patch attached to get new submissions to the U-U-S queue, although lately I haven't had as much time to feed people.
(01:03:11 AM) nixternal: it would really be nice if I could click on package in the bugs list and sort by package
(01:03:36 AM) ***ajmitch thinks that http://django.ajmitch.net.nz/rcbugs/ should be bookmarked instead of the other one
(01:03:41 AM) persia: nixternal: Are you searching attached patch, or patch tag?
(01:03:57 AM) persia: ajmitch: Is that ready for regular use now?
(01:04:14 AM) ajmitch: persia: it's just on my home box, as the other list has always been
(01:04:20 AM) nixternal: the link from the TODO
(01:04:24 AM) ajmitch: unless people really complain about the speed
(01:04:52 AM) LaserJock: this is why I think we could really use django on tiber
(01:05:07 AM) LaserJock: and develop some pages for these things
(01:05:11 AM) ajmitch: because that was something I knocked together in a few minutes?
(01:05:20 AM) ScottK: ajmitch: Would it be possible to add comments on that like we have on DaD?
(01:05:27 AM) ajmitch: ScottK: look on the RHS
(01:05:46 AM) ScottK: Right.  Nevermind.
(01:05:48 AM) ScottK: Cool.
(01:05:54 AM) ajmitch: ScottK: the only change from the original rc bugs page was the addition of comments
(01:06:23 AM) ***ajmitch was going to setup django on imbrandon's box for this
(01:06:33 AM) ***ScottK adds a comment.
(01:06:43 AM) ajmitch: if we have access for it on tiber, it should be possible to move stuff there
(01:06:48 AM) persia: nixternal: Try https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.has_patch=on&search=Search (which is down to ~1000 in the past couple months)
(01:07:12 AM) ajmitch: ScottK: the [-] is for removing the comment
(01:07:13 AM) nixternal: OK...I will put some of these on my todo list
(01:08:40 AM) ***persia must leave soon.  Can we set time & date for next meeting?
(01:08:50 AM) ajmitch: 2 weeks from now, +- 8 hours?
(01:08:56 AM) ajmitch: or +- 12 hours?
(01:09:13 AM) ScottK: persia: Time for a quick PM?
(01:09:14 AM) ***persia likes +344 hours
(01:09:35 AM) nixternal: hehe
(01:09:36 AM) superm1: 14.3 days?
(01:09:48 AM) nixternal: figures you would bust out the calculator :)
(01:09:59 AM) ajmitch: why would you use a calculator for that?
(01:10:31 AM) ajmitch: objections? :)
(01:10:32 AM) nixternal: ajmitch: look at time lapse between the +344 hours and the response of 14.3 days :)
(01:10:38 AM) ajmitch: heh
(01:10:52 AM) superm1: or me walking back into the room and seeing that :)
(01:10:55 AM) ajmitch: it's not hard to work out in your head what it is...
(01:10:57 AM) nixternal: hehe
(01:11:39 AM) nixternal: heh, one of these days you will slow down as well :)
(01:11:56 AM) ajmitch: never
(01:12:29 AM) nixternal: I got the worse news of my life yesterday while getting my haircut
(01:12:38 AM) ajmitch: gray hair?
(01:12:48 AM) nixternal: she said my top was thinning...then images of LaserJock smacked me in the face ;p
(01:12:49 AM) LaserJock: ajmitch: I think it'd be good to do django on whatever the new server is we're getting to replace tiber
(01:12:55 AM) LaserJock: nixternal: ouch
(01:12:58 AM) ajmitch: LaserJock: sure
(01:12:59 AM) nixternal: ;)
(01:13:02 AM) ajmitch: oh that's harsh
(01:13:13 AM) ajmitch: LaserJock: time to replace revu? :)
(01:13:21 AM) LaserJock: ajmitch: perhaps so
(01:13:25 AM) ***ajmitch has nothing better to do this weekend, surely...
(01:13:39 AM) nixternal: ya, but he lost his the cool way...I am loosing mine top dead center...I will be damned if I let it go...I am going to create the Ubuntu Combover!
(01:13:44 AM) LaserJock: I'm thinking django is going to be a bigger in Ubuntu soonish
(01:13:50 AM) ajmitch: he lost his by being a grad student
(01:13:52 AM) nixternal: django is nice
(01:14:04 AM) LaserJock: ajmitch: actually I have
(01:14:07 AM) nixternal: I lost mine from drinking with the monkeys in gibraltor
(01:14:41 AM) ajmitch: django is ok, I'm not going to say it's the bestest thing evah
(01:14:45 AM) nixternal: you know what...mine has been thinning since I started going back to school as well..this isn't cool
(01:15:06 AM) ajmitch: so, with this wonderfully off-topic discussion, ANY OTHER BUSINESS? ;)
(01:15:28 AM) ajmitch: meeting time is friday 24th, 1200 UTC
(01:15:48 AM) ***persia volunteers for announcements.
(01:15:54 AM) ScottK: How about revu being down?
(01:16:18 AM) ajmitch: ScottK: nothing we can do about it yet, sysadmins are working hard to restore stuff
(01:16:46 AM) ScottK: RIght, but in the meantime if two MOTUs review a package and collaborate, it's still cool to uploade, right?
(01:16:56 AM) ScottK: upload even
(01:17:06 AM) LaserJock: I'd think so
(01:17:11 AM) LaserJock: REVU is a tool, not a process
(01:17:40 AM) ScottK: Agreed.
(01:17:47 AM) ScottK: Just thought I'd throw it out there.
(01:17:50 AM) ***persia suggests two comments in the needs-packaging bug for later review.
(01:18:14 AM) LaserJock: well, for me personally I just get a "verbal" ok for my NEW packages
(01:18:44 AM) LaserJock: but it makes sense to do a bit more for nonMOTUs
(01:18:50 AM) persia: LaserJock: Sure.  But you've Charisma :)
(01:19:18 AM) ***ajmitch doesn't do NEW packages generally
(01:19:33 AM) LaserJock: ajmitch: get some spec to implement
(01:19:35 AM) LaserJock: :-)
(01:19:56 AM) ajmitch: in the next 2 days, sure
(01:19:59 AM) ScottK: There are just a few packages that people have really worked hard on that were close and I'd hate to see them miss out because REVU went POOF.
(01:20:13 AM) LaserJock: sure
(01:20:18 AM) LaserJock: hmm
(01:20:30 AM) LaserJock: maybe we should just use ubuntu-motu-mentors
(01:20:34 AM) LaserJock: like debian-mentors
(01:20:42 AM) ajmitch: we still have ~3 weeks
(01:20:44 AM) nixternal: I was just going to say that
(01:20:48 AM) ***ScottK isn't subscribed.
(01:21:09 AM) nixternal: we can post a couple of blog posts telling people to send tarballs of their packages to the list for the time being since revu is down
(01:21:14 AM) LaserJock: people can do a RFS or whatever
(01:21:18 AM) nixternal: or see if we can get a temp list setup in the meantime
(01:21:29 AM) nixternal: but I am sure the answer will be "revu will be up shortly"
(01:21:46 AM) LaserJock: ubuntu-motu-mentors is *designed* for this kind of thing
(01:21:54 AM) ajmitch: revu doesn't really need a lot to run
(01:21:58 AM) ***persia doesn't like the idea of sending tarballs to the list.  There's got to be a better way to share the packages.
(01:22:01 AM) ajmitch: most things happen as 1 user
(01:22:09 AM) nixternal: have them do an ITP on LP, and then have them file RFS?
(01:22:26 AM) ScottK: Plus with mail, interesting things can happen with 7 bit/8 bit conversions and MD5 sums too.
(01:23:27 AM) persia: nixternal: That sounds better to be (with s/ITP/needs-packaging tag)
(01:23:33 AM) persia: s/be/me/
(01:23:48 AM) nixternal: ya, that would work actually
(01:23:53 AM) RAOF: Couldn't we get them to use PPA far this?
(01:24:03 AM) superm1: RAOF, not everyone has PPA access yet
(01:24:08 AM) nixternal: doesn't PPA require you to register/apply for it?
(01:24:20 AM) persia: nixternal: That's how it was done pre-REVU, which really doesn't scale, but perhaps handles this interim time period.
(01:24:20 AM) superm1: the beta ends at the end of the month i believe
(01:24:21 AM) nixternal: I applied on Monday I think..and still haven't heard anything
(01:24:22 AM) RAOF: Oh, yeah.  Sorry, I forgot you need to be a LP beta tester.
(01:24:34 AM) RAOF: superm1: Yup.   3 weeks
(01:24:45 AM) nixternal: you have to be more than an LP beta tester...you have to apply for the PPA beta as well
(01:24:50 AM) RAOF: nixternal: Unless you're not a beta tester, it's active.
(01:25:05 AM) nixternal: I am a beta tester and it isn't active for me...at least not that I have noticed
(01:25:09 AM) ***nixternal looks again
(01:25:14 AM) superm1: or you could have been grandfathered in if you activated it early
(01:25:16 AM) RAOF: nixternal: I got confused by that.  Check out dogfood.launchpad.net
(01:25:34 AM) LaserJock: nixternal: PPA is open to beta testers only right now
(01:26:01 AM) ajmitch: nixternal: you need to be 'special'
(01:26:02 AM) LaserJock: but all beta testers do have access to PPA
(01:26:03 AM) RAOF: nixternal: And it's *only* available from your dogfood login.
(01:26:31 AM) nixternal: ahhh, there we go
(01:26:34 AM) nixternal: thanks RAOF
(01:26:43 AM) LaserJock: anyway, people putting packages on random web space for a while won't kill us
(01:26:52 AM) persia left the room.
(01:26:59 AM) LaserJock: so interim I think using the -mentors list should be good
(01:27:03 AM) LaserJock: just to keep things rolling
(01:27:33 AM) ajmitch: ok, someone can inform the masses about it
(01:28:35 AM) ajmitch: don't all volunteer at once
(01:28:59 AM) ajmitch: we may want to hold revu days still
(01:29:28 AM) nixternal: see..not everyone has access to server space though...that is why I think LP would work for the time being possibly a little bit better
(01:30:03 AM) nixternal: tell the people to attach their .orig.tar.gz, .dsc, and diff.gz to a bug report, tag it, and subscribe u-u-s to it?
(01:30:26 AM) ajmitch: as long as it's not huge, i guess that could work
(01:30:44 AM) LaserJock: nixternal: yeah, that's fine for small ones I think
(01:30:53 AM) LaserJock: I'm not sure if LP has an attachment limit or not
(01:30:55 AM) nixternal: is it possible to create a temp "revu" tag?
(01:31:09 AM) LaserJock: why?
(01:31:40 AM) LaserJock: people can't give a "needs-packaging" bug number to -mentors ?
(01:35:11 AM) nixternal: I guess they could
(01:35:39 AM) LaserJock: I mean, this isn't complicated
(01:35:52 AM) LaserJock: "Give use a place to get your package, here are some suggestions:"
(01:35:57 AM) LaserJock: *us
(01:37:07 AM) LaserJock: I think in some ways we can learn a bit from Debian here
(01:37:35 AM) ScottK: As an example, I put someone's package on my web space today, gave him a link to the .dsc and told him he could tell potential reviewers to dget it from there.
(01:37:41 AM) LaserJock: I like how they handle NEW
(01:38:08 AM) ajmitch: hey tritium
(01:38:25 AM) tritium: hey there ajmitch
(01:38:38 AM) ajmitch: you just caught the end of a MOTU meeting :)
(01:39:05 AM) tritium: I did?  Damn, sorry.
(01:39:24 AM) LaserJock: sorry?
(01:39:28 AM) LaserJock: you made it!!
(01:39:34 AM) tritium: The end, though
(01:39:41 AM) tritium: What good am I?
(01:40:26 AM) LaserJock: moral support
(01:40:54 AM) tritium: I noticed in an email my launchpad membership is due to expire soon.
(01:41:20 AM) ajmitch: which team?
(01:41:28 AM) tritium: dev and motu
(01:41:41 AM) ajmitch: and you still want to be a MOTU, I take it? :)
(01:42:08 AM) tritium: Of course I do, but how useful have I been?  Not very...
(01:42:19 AM) ajmitch: looks like it just expired today
(01:42:28 AM) ajmitch: so it'll need to go to the TB
(01:42:56 AM) tritium: Ah, boy.
(01:43:00 AM) ajmitch: looks like quite a few expired today
(01:43:06 AM) ajmitch: including some active core-devs
(01:43:07 AM) tritium: For me, or others?
(01:43:20 AM) ajmitch: for others
(01:43:25 AM) tritium: Gotcha.
(01:43:30 AM) Mithrandir: ajmitch: people in core-dev are automatically in -dev, so that shouldn't really matter
(01:43:33 AM) ajmitch: 11 expired from motu today
(01:43:41 AM) ajmitch: Mithrandir: I know, they've got a little bit of grace time
(01:43:49 AM) ajmitch: Mithrandir: I'll expire from both fairly shortly
(01:44:04 AM) Mithrandir: slacker :-P
(01:44:14 AM) ajmitch: yeah :P
(01:44:21 AM) ajmitch: morning, btw
(01:44:38 AM) Mithrandir: indeed, it's morning today as well.
(01:44:45 AM) Mithrandir: strange that it always comes around at this time of day.
(01:44:57 AM) ajmitch: for a few people, at least
(01:51:35 AM) tritium: Damn, I didn't respond in time
(01:52:58 AM) ajmitch: did it ask you if you wanted to renew?
(01:53:23 AM) tritium: There was a link to click in the email notification, but I responded too late.

MeetingLogs/MOTU/20070810 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:59:39 by localhost)