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(11:05:18 PM) TheMuso: #startmeeting
(11:05:20 PM) MootBot: Meeting started at 04:05. The chair is TheMuso.
(11:05:20 PM) MootBot: Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
(11:05:29 PM) TheMuso: [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
(11:05:30 PM) MootBot: LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
(11:05:49 PM) TheMuso: LaserJock: I just asked who is here.
(11:06:34 PM) TheMuso: Does anybody have anything to say about he first agenda item, or should be postpone it for the next meeting?
(11:07:28 PM) TheMuso: Hrm, and since there are only a few of us, I'm wondering whether we should leave them for the list/the next meeting/
(11:07:45 PM) pochu: It sounds good to me, although it says "e.g." so it sounds as it should be discussed (or postponed)
(11:08:29 PM) pochu: TheMuso: we can wait a little to see if there is someone late
(11:08:46 PM) TheMuso: pochu: Yeah, perhaps I was a little hasty in starting things. :p
(11:09:10 PM) LaserJock: heh, we could at least have a quick discussion I suppose
(11:09:43 PM) TheMuso: LaserJock: About which one(s)?
(11:10:09 PM) LaserJock: all of them
(11:10:16 PM) LaserJock: if not a lot of people show up
(11:10:39 PM) TheMuso: Yeah, and its looking increasinly like they won't, but we can wait a bit.
(11:13:58 PM) TheMuso: Yay, another MOTU.
(11:14:05 PM) TheMuso: RAOF: You are here for the meeting, aren't you?
(11:14:12 PM) pochu: motus += 1
(11:14:16 PM) RAOF: TheMuso: Yes, I am.  Just a little late :)
(11:14:34 PM) TheMuso: Tis alright, we haven't started in urnist yet.
(11:14:36 PM) RAOF: Unless my UTC-foo is particularly bad.
(11:14:49 PM) TheMuso: RAOF: NO it isn't.
(11:15:19 PM) TheMuso: Well, what say we get started?
(11:15:58 PM) ***ajmitch isn't exactly here for the meeting, is almost beer o'clock :)
(11:17:49 PM) TheMuso: Or do you all think we should postponee?
(11:18:33 PM) RAOF: How many do we have?
(11:18:48 PM) TheMuso: nxvl, pochu, LaserJock, yourself, and myself.
(11:19:46 PM) RAOF: Hm.  Doesn't seem a particularly good turnout, but will postponing get a better turnout?
(11:19:49 PM) pochu: and half of ajmitch!
(11:19:59 PM) RAOF: The soper half :)
(11:20:04 PM) RAOF: s/p/b/
(11:20:13 PM) TheMuso: RAOF: Well I think the times rotate now, so the next one is more likely to land in a more suitable timezone.
(11:20:41 PM) ***LaserJock likes this time :-)
(11:20:47 PM) RAOF: TheMuso: So that means we should go ahead, surely.  The idea of rotating timezones would be so that everyone can participate.
(11:21:02 PM) TheMuso: RAOF: Yes I know.
(11:21:09 PM) TheMuso: Alright, lets go.
(11:21:11 PM) TheMuso: [topic] mailing list policy (e.g. all MOTUs must be subscribed to devel-announce, should be subscribed -motu and -devel, where to post announcements etc.)
(11:21:12 PM) MootBot: New Topic:  mailing list policy (e.g. all MOTUs must be subscribed to devel-announce, should be subscribed -motu and -devel, where to post announcements etc.)
(11:21:38 PM) TheMuso: Since whoever added that doesn't seem to be here, what does everybody think? It sounds rather self-explanetory.
(11:22:27 PM) LaserJock: are we wanting a wiki page that has the "You need to be sub'd to ubuntu-motu, ubuntu-devel, and ubuntu-devel-announce"
(11:22:29 PM) LaserJock: ?
(11:22:29 PM) RAOF: It does, yes.  I think it's obvious that MOTUs should be expected to be subscribed to at least -motu & -devel-announce, and almost certainly -devel.
(11:22:55 PM) pochu: I think the "must be subscribed to -devel-announce" is sensible.
(11:23:10 PM) TheMuso: I think devel-announce, and -motu certainly.
(11:23:18 PM) pochu: The others shouldn't be enforced IMHO
(11:23:27 PM) pochu: hmm, -motu maybe...
(11:23:39 PM) LaserJock: really?
(11:23:56 PM) LaserJock: I feel like both -motu and -devel should be required
(11:24:16 PM) TheMuso: LaserJock: Certainly -devel if you are about to/are a MOTU.
(11:24:23 PM) TheMuso: As you are more active in the development community.
(11:24:48 PM) pochu: well important things go to -devel-announce. The rest is discussion so I don't think we should enforce it.
(11:25:02 PM) pochu: Although we should encourage it, of course.
(11:25:07 PM) LaserJock: mdz and others have said that the design of -devel should be for *all* developers and -motu should be just motu specific stuff
(11:25:36 PM) LaserJock: so I think people are really missing out on important stuff if they aren't sub'd
(11:25:58 PM) TheMuso: LaserJock: Now that you put it that way, -devel is important enough, as some important discussions do come up from time to time, or someone wants something tested.
(11:26:38 PM) pochu: I still don't think we should force people to subscribe to a list because they might be interested in a few mails
(11:26:38 PM) LaserJock: it's not like they are high traffic
(11:26:57 PM) pochu: LaserJock: true that, due to the split in -devel-discuss for devel and -mentors for motu
(11:27:07 PM) TheMuso: nxvl: You still with us? Do you have any thoughts?
(11:27:22 PM) RAOF: pochu: Surely it's not *that* much of a burden?  I get ~40 Ubuntu mails/day on busy days, and I'm subscribed to all sorts of lists.
(11:27:29 PM) pochu: Messages: 205 <--- ubuntu-motu in January
(11:27:35 PM) TheMuso: Yeah the traffic is not high at all.
(11:27:47 PM) pochu: Messages: 105 <--- ubuntu-devel in January
(11:27:49 PM) TheMuso: on -devel
(11:28:11 PM) LaserJock: I just feel like if -motu and -devel are really burdens then I have some other questions
(11:28:21 PM) LaserJock: if you know what I mean
(11:28:26 PM) pochu: RAOF: lucky you ;) I get hundreds every day, but I'm subscribed to too many I'm afraid...
(11:28:37 PM) RAOF: So that'd be ~10 mails/day for -motu & -devel being mandatory.  That doesn't seem onerous at all.
(11:28:55 PM) LaserJock: I don't think we need to have some sort of penalty or ML cops or anything
(11:29:20 PM) TheMuso: No, I see it more as an encouragement.
(11:29:33 PM) TheMuso: As they'd get more out of the development community at least reading those lists.
(11:29:33 PM) RAOF: It would just be listed somewhere as expected behaviour.
(11:29:46 PM) TheMuso: RAOF: Yeah.
(11:29:49 PM) pochu: Well I'm saying all the time that we should encourage it, but not force it
(11:29:50 PM) LaserJock: but a wiki page that says that you *should* be sub'd is good, and generally saying it's assumed
(11:29:59 PM) pochu: Although -devel-discuss should be enforced.
(11:30:11 PM) TheMuso: devel-discuss?
(11:30:13 PM) TheMuso: You sure?
(11:30:20 PM) pochu: Err, -devel-announce
(11:30:29 PM) LaserJock: -devel-announce yes
(11:30:33 PM) RAOF: pochu: I thought d-discus was at least partially a honeypot :)
(11:30:35 PM) pochu: TheMuso: I'm considering unsubscribing from -discuss ;)
(11:30:36 PM) TheMuso: Right, I thought so.
(11:30:53 PM) pochu: RAOF: yeah sadly it is
(11:31:41 PM) TheMuso: So does anybody wan to volunteer to update the wiki?
(11:32:10 PM) LaserJock: do we have a good wiki page for that?
(11:32:37 PM) RAOF: LaserJock: That's what I was thinking.  I can't think of one, offhand.
(11:32:41 PM) ***TheMuso doesn't know, as he rarely looks at the MOTU part of the wiki these days.
(11:33:09 PM) TheMuso: Well perhaps its someting we tell new contributors who are regularly involved.
(11:33:15 PM) TheMuso: something
(11:33:33 PM) TheMuso: And, how do we enforce devel-announce?
(11:33:38 PM) TheMuso: We can't really enforce any of it really.
(11:33:55 PM) RAOF: Sign up ~ubuntu-dev to devel-announce? :)
(11:33:57 PM) LaserJock: sure we can
(11:34:16 PM) LaserJock: have a devel-announce admin sign up everybody in ~motu
(11:34:20 PM) LaserJock: :-)
(11:35:36 PM) TheMuso: Yeah, but I don't think its something we can force contributors to do.
(11:36:03 PM) RAOF: Why would we need to force contributors to do that?
(11:36:37 PM) RAOF: We can suggest it to them, and if they don't then, well, that's one of the reasons their work is filtered through MOTUs.
(11:36:42 PM) LaserJock: no, this should be a MOTU thing
(11:37:54 PM) pochu: LaserJock: then motus could just filter mails from whateverlist to /dev/null :P
(11:38:21 PM) LaserJock: well, that would be very  unfortunate
(11:39:11 PM) LaserJock: hmm, we need a "MOTU Reference" wiki page
(11:39:18 PM) LaserJock: I just get so lost
(11:40:21 PM) RAOF: Hey, maybe https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers is a good page?
(11:40:29 PM) LaserJock: well
(11:40:35 PM) LaserJock: that one is just so big
(11:40:47 PM) LaserJock: I need like the reference version
(11:41:01 PM) RAOF: "MOTUhood for dummies"
(11:41:14 PM) LaserJock: that links to all the stuff and has nice checklists so we don't forget
(11:41:17 PM) RAOF: That'd actually be a useful page, yeah.
(11:41:50 PM) LaserJock: so it's not "I need to learn how to ..." but "I need to remember how to ..." ;-)
(11:41:57 PM) RAOF: Updated with "current/impending freeze: <url> (exception process <url>)", etc.
(11:42:05 PM) LaserJock: yep
(11:42:23 PM) RAOF: "Where's that useful page about reviewing new library packages again?"
(11:42:28 PM) RAOF: Etc.
(11:42:32 PM) TheMuso_: Sorry, just got booted and reconnected.
(11:42:47 PM) TheMuso_: What did I miss?
(11:43:01 PM) RAOF: I didn't see you get booted, so I don't know.
(11:43:14 PM) LaserJock: TheMuso_: what was the last you saw?
(11:43:15 PM) RAOF: Last thing you saw?
(11:43:17 PM) TheMuso left the room (quit: Nick collision from services.).
(11:43:42 PM) TheMuso_ is now known as TheMuso
(11:44:02 PM) RAOF: LaserJock & I have been musing that a "Daily MOTU tasks quick reference guide" wiki page would be nice.
(11:44:12 PM) TheMuso: < RAOF> Why would we need to force contributors to do that?
(11:44:47 PM) RAOF: TheMuso: http://pastebin.com/mcce1ddb
(11:45:11 PM) TheMuso: RAOF: thanks.
(11:46:59 PM) TheMuso: So... What should we do? Perhaps raise it on the list?
(11:47:22 PM) RAOF: Unless someone here wants to volunteer to write such a page, yes.
(11:48:14 PM) RAOF: The result of this discussion is "MOTUs are expected be subscribed to at least -motu, -devel, and -devel-discuss.  Also, a MOTU Reference wiki page wourld be good", yes?
(11:49:18 PM) TheMuso: Does everybody agree with RAOF assessment of the discussion?
(11:49:49 PM) LucidFox: I agree.
(11:51:10 PM) TheMuso: Ok, I'll take that as a yes, as we are almost out of time.
(11:52:34 PM) TheMuso: [agreed] MOTUs are expected to be subscribed to at least -motu, -devel, and -devel-discuss. A MOTU wiki reference page would also be useful.
(11:52:35 PM) MootBot: AGREED received:  MOTUs are expected to be subscribed to at least -motu, -devel, and -devel-discuss. A MOTU wiki reference page would also be useful.
(11:52:42 PM) TheMuso: Moving along...
(11:53:09 PM) TheMuso: 
should Ubuntu Membership be a general requirement for MOTUship? (see the [WWW] MOTU Council thread for more details)
(11:53:22 PM) TheMuso: [topic] should Ubuntu Membership be a general requirement for MOTUship? (see the [WWW] MOTU Council thread for more details)
(11:53:23 PM) MootBot: New Topic:  should Ubuntu Membership be a general requirement for MOTUship? (see the [WWW] MOTU Council thread for more details)
(11:55:01 PM) TheMuso: So, shoudl this also be something that gets put to the list?
(11:56:16 PM) ***TheMuso thinks again that we postpone to either the next meeting, or to the list.
(11:56:25 PM) RAOF: As I see it, the only reason why Ubuntu Membership should not be a requirement for MOTU would be if the process for aquiring UM is swamped by applicants.
(11:56:39 PM) RAOF: TheMuso: That seems reasonable.  Send to list.
(11:58:03 PM) TheMuso: Anybody got anythign else to say? Otherwise I say we leave this and the other items either for the list, or the next meeting.
(11:58:16 PM) superm1: are some folks from motu-release present right now?
(11:58:26 PM) superm1: i've got some things to mention at least to them
(11:58:38 PM) TheMuso: Yes, I am, but we as a group haven't had a chance to talk about anything yet.
(11:58:55 PM) superm1: I'll hold off then until everyone on the team talks then
(11:59:02 PM) superm1: carry on :)
(11:59:25 PM) TheMuso: Anybody?
(11:59:27 PM) TheMuso: going....
(11:59:30 PM) TheMuso: going..
(11:59:34 PM) TheMuso: going.
(02/15/2008 12:00:13 AM) TheMuso: gone.
(12:00:58 AM) pochu: Adjourned!
(12:01:12 AM) TheMuso: [agreed] Discussion of whether Ubuntu membership should be a general requirement of MOTUship, as well as feature freeze policy, should be discussed either on the MOTU mailing list, or at the next meeting.
(12:01:13 AM) MootBot: AGREED received:  Discussion of whether Ubuntu membership should be a general requirement of MOTUship, as well as feature freeze policy, should be discussed either on the MOTU mailing list, or at the next meeting.
(12:01:17 AM) TheMuso: #endmeeting
(12:01:18 AM) MootBot: Meeting finished at 05:01.