17:03 MootBot Meeting started at 17:03. The chair is liw. 17:03 MootBot Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] 17:04 liw we don't have much of an agenda prepared 17:04 liw [TOPIC] post-release bug status 17:04 MootBot New Topic: post-release bug status 17:04 heno I just posted a straw man one now 17:04 liw https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam -- right, at the bottom of the page now 17:05 heno my favourite bug graph this week http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/plots/update-manager-month-unconfirmed.png 17:05 liw what's the situation with bugs now, almost a week after the release? 17:05 liw uh oh, that doesn't look good 17:05 heno poor mvo really gets flooded just after release 17:05 liw mvo? 17:06 heno we should help out with these I think 17:06 bdmurray I think some of them are invalid, just temporary issues with mirrors, etc 17:06 heno bdmurray: can you try some bughelper duplication-finding magic on those? 17:06 mvo liw: hello 17:06 liw do I read that graph correctly: it shows the number of new, untriaged bugs each day? 17:07 heno are there lots of apport-generated ones? 17:07 mvo that is quite possible 17:07 mvo yes, those are mostly auto-generated 17:07 mvo we have e.g. ~50 duplicates for a adept bug, let me dig the bugnumber 17:08 heno liw: right, see http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/update-manager.html for the interactive version 17:08 mvo https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/154771 17:08 bdmurray 153500 maybe? 17:08 ubotu Launchpad bug 154771 in update-manager "Kubuntu 7.10 Upgrading to Kubuntu 7.10 and after gives error and says Distribution is Up To Date" [Undecided,Confirmed] 17:08 liw is there automation for finding duplicated, automatically reported bugs? 17:08 mvo bdmurray: yes, that is the other one 17:08 heno http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/ for other packages 17:08 MootBot LINK received: http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/ for other packages 17:09 mvo the problem with the update-manager bugs is that each update problem gets to this package first 17:09 bdmurray liw: I believe ther is for crash reports 17:09 pedro_ liw, for stacktraces yes, don't know if there's one for that kind of issues 17:09 heno mvo: so you don't sound too worried 17:09 mvo even if its really a bug in e.g. a postinst 17:10 mvo its certainly not good 17:10 mvo our upgrade is fragile, mostly because of the fact that for ~2000 installed package ~4000 maintainer scripts gets run and some are really fragile 17:11 mvo it used to be a upgrade error if e.g. invoke-rc.d can't stop a daemon 17:11 mvo -> maintainer script failre, upgrade error 17:11 liw mvo, do you think the fragility could be lessened by more vigorous pre-release testing using automated tools? === asac___ is now known as asac_ 17:11 bdmurray mvo: did you find anything out about the medibuntu repo ones? 17:12 heno mvo: I guess you and liw should talk a bit about upgrade testing at UDS 17:12 mvo same for .e.g python. if python-central is not able to compile py modules (e.g. because of locally installed stuff) the upgrade may fail 17:12 mvo liw: to a certain extend yes 17:12 mvo liw: one big issue is that we do not test universe packages enough for upgradability 17:12 heno mvo: what's the limiting factor on test coverage; coding tests or HW to run on? 17:12 Lutin bdmurray: what are the medibuntu-related ones ? 17:12 cjwatson we made python a bit less fragile in the gutsy cycle by at least ensuring that debconf doesn't fail to configure in that case 17:12 liw mvo, we should test universe packages as well, certainly 17:13 mvo liw: but then its a problem with our paradigma, maintainer script fails -> upgrade fails 17:13 heno imagine if we wanted to run a silly amt of permutations of upgrade scenarios 17:13 mvo heno: time 17:13 heno mvo: as in dev time? 17:13 bdmurray bug 153948 is an example 17:13 ubotu Launchpad bug 153948 in rosetta "Launchpad translations take a plain '%' char as a format string when it's not a format string" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153948 17:13 mvo cjwatson: yes, I think we do better than before (with invoke-rc.d as well) 17:13 mvo bdmurray: no, sorry 17:13 bdmurray Lutin: bug 153958 is an example 17:13 ubotu Launchpad bug 153958 in update-manager "update-manager problem when upgrading from Feisty to Gutsy" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153958 17:13 mvo heno: dev time to setup the tests 17:14 mvo heno: the currently available auto-upgrade tester could test universe as well, the code is there 17:14 Lutin bdmurray: this url has been deprecated for months 17:14 mvo heno: but it takes time to generate the base image for the upgrade test and especially in universe quite a few packages fail to install 17:14 heno I wonder how many of the bugs we are getting involve universe packages 17:14 bdmurray Lutin: well, apparently not everyone knows that 17:15 liw it would be possible to set up piuparts for example to break invoke-rc.d and see what happens, might be an interesting thing to do 17:15 mvo heno: the other issue is that the upgrade takes a lot of time with a lot of packages 17:15 mvo heno: I did tests with ~12000 installed packages and dpkg eat ~500 mb of real mem 17:15 Lutin bdmurray: unfortunately :/ 17:16 liw mvo, that's thankfully a problem that can be solved by throwing hardware at it 17:16 mvo liw: if invoke-rc.d is broken, every upgraded daemon fails and that makes the upgrade fail (or at least it gives scary errors) 17:16 heno mvo: right, I'm thinking it would be cool to combine this with other tests, like server testing that needs HW anyway 17:16 mvo right 17:16 liw mvo, right, the point would be to see how much stuff breaks by that kind of thing 17:17 mvo right 17:17 heno so just to wrap up the topic: 17:17 Lutin bdmurray: does this kind of bug _break_ the upgrade ? I wouldn't believe it 17:17 mvo I didn't managed to analyze the bugreports fully yet, but from what i have seen over the weekend it seem a lot of errors are releated to getting the upgrades because of server overload (especially mirrors) and then packages breaking during the upgrade === asac_ is now known as asac 17:18 heno bdmurray, pedro_, ogasawara: would you say the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming? 17:18 ogasawara heno: yes 17:18 pedro_ i thought it would be worse 17:19 pedro_ we indeed get a lot of reports during the weekend but nothing alarming 17:19 heno ok, great 17:19 heno next topic? 17:19 bdmurray my concern is us fallling further behind in the next 2 weeks though 17:19 liw [AGREED] the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming 17:19 MootBot AGREED received: the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming 17:20 liw [TOPIC] mobile platform test cases 17:20 MootBot New Topic: mobile platform test cases 17:20 heno bdmurray: with UDS and AllHands getting in the way, true 17:21 heno any one here have experience with the mobile platform? 17:21 liw not me 17:21 ogasawara heno: I don't 17:21 pedro_ i dont... 17:22 bdmurray I've used a mobile device before. ;) 17:22 heno we need some better test plans there; But I'll email some people 17:23 heno (it was worth asking :) ) ; ok, next topic 17:23 liw [TOPIC] testing plans for hardy 17:23 MootBot New Topic: testing plans for hardy 17:24 heno I seem to remember we had various long-term issues we wanted to discuss last week, but cut short 17:24 heno hence the general testing and bug topics on the agenda 17:25 heno has everyone going to UDS looked at the proposed topics and subscribed? 17:25 liw I'm trying to find the log from the previous meeting 17:26 liw I've looked at and subscribed to all relevant UDS topics I know of 17:26 heno you need to subscribe to the specs to be scheduled for the meetings * ogasawara needs to subscribe then 17:26 heno yeah, please do that before UDS starts 17:26 liw http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071017_1719.html -- that should be our previous meeting 17:26 MootBot LINK received: http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071017_1719.html -- that should be our previous meeting 17:27 heno I'll go through the list later today and subscribe other distro people to things that seem relevant as well 17:28 liw nothing much in that log, though 17:28 liw I'll re-iterate my intention of concentrating, to the extent possible, on automating tests, starting with using existing tools of various kinds 17:29 liw anyone else? 17:29 heno right; system-level stuff before new year (est.) and then make a start on gui-based testing after new year 17:29 liw anything else? 17:29 liw yeah, like that 17:30 heno I have another topic: QA resource page 17:31 liw let's do the remainign one in the wiki first 17:31 liw [TOPIC] bug management plans for hardy 17:31 MootBot New Topic: bug management plans for hardy 17:31 liw I have the feeling we should try to keep the number of untriaged bugs and the number of open bugs as low as possible -- it's easier to do triage if there's only a small number of bugs to work on 17:31 liw but I haven't participated in triage at all yet 17:32 heno a noble goal 17:33 liw let's see if it is a practical one as well 17:33 liw anything else about bug management? 17:33 heno that either means cloning more triagers, tightening policy (closing more bugs), making it more difficult to file bugs, etc. 17:33 bdmurray I think writing some bughelper clue files for previous high profile bugs to identify duplicates and cleanup some packages might be worthwhile 17:34 heno which may all be valid choices 17:34 heno bdmurray: 'clean up some packages' -> the clue files for them? 17:36 bdmurray Like mvo mentioned an update-manager bug earlier, lets write a clue file for that and other update-manager bugs and see how many dupes we can find and what affect that has on the number of update-manager bugs 17:37 heno bdmurray: right, this is a good time for that as we're not under the pressure of a release 17:37 davmor2 Sorry I'm late :( 17:37 bdmurray well, we also need to keep an eye out for sru candidate bugs 17:37 bdmurray but I think some of the reports may help with that 17:38 davmor2 SRU? 17:38 bdmurray stable release update 17:38 davmor2 ta 17:40 liw anything else on this topic? 17:41 heno next? 17:41 liw [TOPIC] QA resource page 17:41 MootBot New Topic: QA resource page 17:41 liw heno? 17:41 heno I just posted this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources 17:42 heno I'd like us to bring up a few on-line resources about QA at these meetings each week 17:42 heno there is lots we can all learn out there 17:42 heno as a new team I think that would be valuable 17:43 liw I agree 17:43 heno We could all just add links to that page, but I'd like them to be mentioned here in some way 17:43 heno a long list of links is not that useful 17:44 liw mentioning them here would be good 17:44 liw also, perhaps adding a few words of description to each link? 17:44 liw [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources 17:44 heno I wonder if we could ask each person to bring one item to the meeting each week and say two lines about it? 17:44 MootBot LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources 17:45 liw I'd rather have people mention anything they happen to find 17:45 heno it could be an article, research paper, good blog entry about QA, video, etc. 17:45 liw in a repeating topic that happens every week 17:45 heno ok, that works too 17:45 davmor2 sounds good :) 17:46 liw I'll add that topic to the agenda now so we don't forget 17:46 bdmurray And what is the purpose? I'd have to stop doing something else to do this. 17:46 heno these are not required reading of course, just recommended :) 17:46 heno bdmurray: if you don't feel it helps you then you don't need to 17:47 heno you might want to glance at what is being posted though 17:47 bdmurray I'd certainly like to, but I'm quite uncertain where to fit it in 17:47 liw I follow programming.reddit.com and they fairly often have testing stuff there, so I'd be more than happy to mention anything there 17:48 heno bdmurray: you mean about finding links or looking at other people's submissions? 17:48 bdmurray heno: both. ;) 17:48 davmor2 I think an useful links that further the cause can only be a good thing :) 17:48 heno right, the google tech talks are quite long, about an hour 17:50 heno bdmurray: you could post an informative bug search from your weekly work that new community people might find useful 17:51 bdmurray heno: okay, I'll see what I can come up with 17:53 liw so: anyone is welcome to bring what they have, and anyone is welcome to make what use they can of what is brought -- are we in agreement? :) 17:53 heno I guess this is something I'm used to fro my university days; lunch-time talks 17:53 heno I think so 17:53 liw any other topics? 17:53 heno any other business? 17:53 heno :) 17:54 heno oh, the open week sessions went really well! 17:54 bdmurray When will the next meeting be? 17:54 heno bdmurray, pedro_, liw: well done! 17:54 liw bdmurray, good point 17:54 heno hm, we should schedule one during UDS 17:54 davmor2 yes, Is there a way that we can log our hardware fully? So that it gets added to bugs and reports save having to add it each time? 17:54 heno with in-person and voip 17:55 liw heno, would it be best to do that scheduling on site when we know what the uds schedule looks like? 17:55 heno right, should we punt that decision to Monday? 17:55 liw davmor2, the reportbug(-ng) program could perhaps be adapted to report bugs to launchpad 17:56 liw heno, I'd say we should punt to Monday 17:56 heno davmor2: I'd like to start using hwtest for this 17:56 davmor2 any links for hwtest? 17:56 heno it produces an XML file that we can store different places 17:57 heno it should be an ubuntu app * heno looks for it 17:57 heno when did we remove that from the menus? 17:58 bdmurray I thought it was run once thing 17:58 davmor2 okay cool. I'm thinking that in testing senario's it may speed things up if every tester with intel cpu is having issues where as everyone with amd's are fine same for 32 and 64 bit etc. 17:58 bdmurray That is why it isn't in the menu 17:59 bdmurray However, I don't recall seeing it when doing Gutsy installs 17:59 heno I think it was there in the old days, but removed for the reason you stated 18:00 heno let's take that question to the mailing list ... 18:00 liw anything else for this meeting? 18:00 heno bdmurray: should that be announced somewhere, should we just start using it? 18:01 davmor2 heno are you on about ubuntu device database? 18:01 bdmurray heno: that what? 18:01 heno davmor2: yes 18:01 heno bdmurray: ubuntu-qa mailing list 18:01 davmor2 it's hidden in system tools 18:01 heno (sorry, unclear) 18:02 davmor2 ubuntu-qa has a mailing list ? 18:02 bdmurray davmor2: yeah, I haven't looked at it in a bit and no is subscribed but we thought we would start using it for this 18:03 bdmurray so I need to double check the config then we can start using it 18:03 heno bdmurray: can you post some info to the bugsquad list and place a link in the wiki, etc. when it's ready? 18:04 heno or we can just subscribe and go? 18:04 stgraber sorry, was afk for quite a long time :) 18:05 bdmurray why don't we just start using it and see what happens 18:05 heno davmor2: let's play with that app a bit and brainstorm on the new list 18:06 heno ok cool 18:06 davmor2 where's the sign up point? 18:06 heno anything else? 18:06 liw how does one subscribe? 18:06 bdmurray https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality 18:07 davmor2 request sent :) 18:08 pedro_ subscribed :-) 18:08 heno ok, I think we're done 18:08 liw subscribed 18:08 liw #endmeeting 18:08 MootBot Meeting finished at 18:08.