NealMcBurnett (nealmcb) served as the facilitator since mathiaz was not available
items from last week
- kirkland noted that degraded RAID is pretty much done. kees and slangasek sponsored the last of the patches last week.
ACTION: ScottK will post a blog request for help with the ClamavSpamassasssin MIRs
other items from the roadmap - more spec updates?
- kirkland asked for help with init script status actions
UFW Package Integration - jdstrand
- jdstrand noted that ufw now has support for package integration, and answered question
nealmcb noted that August 28th is FeatureFreeze
- ACTION: tarvid to summarize drupal issues and propose something to the mailing list
Rails Integration and Rubygems
ACTION: NeilW to post again to get feedback on his rubygems & Passenger work
Agree on next meeting date and time
Next meeting will be on Tuesday, Aug 26th at 15:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting.
[16:00] <nealmcb> #startmeeting [16:00] <zul> hi [16:00] * nealmcb listens intently for mootbot [16:00] <ScottK-laptop> Heya zul. [16:00] <zul> hi ScottK-laptop [16:01] <nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting [16:02] <nealmcb> So we'll start without mootbot. ScottK-laptop, you'd like to do some specs right off, or after the normal preliminaries" [16:02] <nijaba> @now [16:02] <ubottu> Error: Please don't use @schedule during a meeting [16:02] <emgent> #schedule rome [16:02] <emgent> @schedule rome [16:02] <ubottu> Error: Please don't use @schedule during a meeting [16:02] <ScottK-laptop> After the normal preliminaries is fine. [16:03] <nealmcb> [TOPIC] items from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080812 [16:04] <nealmcb> james_w: did you do a blog post on removing multiuser options? [16:05] <james_w> hey [16:05] <ScottK-laptop> He did or I imagined reading it. [16:05] <james_w> sort of [16:05] <james_w> by the time I got round to writing it most of the works was done [16:06] <nealmcb> good job! I think foolano and kirkland won't be here for their action items. [16:06] <kirkland> nealmcb: hey, i'm hear [16:06] <kirkland> here [16:07] <nealmcb> kirkland: great. anything on degraded raid and the release notes? [16:07] <kirkland> nealmcb: I think degraded RAID is pretty much done. kees and slangasek sponsored the last of the patches last week. [16:07] <kirkland> nealmcb: to recap.... [16:07] <jdstrand> \o/ [16:08] <kirkland> nealmcb: we have now patched a) initramfs-tools to allow for configurably and interactively deciding whether to boot a degraded RAID [16:08] <kirkland> nealmcb: b) grub will detect and install multiple MBRs to disks in a mirror providing /boot [16:08] <kirkland> nealmcb: c) mdadm has the debconf entries to allow a sysadmin to switch BOOT_DEGRADED on/off [16:09] * nealmcb cheers [16:09] <kirkland> nealmcb: not to say that there aren't other RAID bugs and issues, but this is what we set out to solve at the end of UDS [16:09] <nealmcb> ScottK-laptop: is your spec thing part of the roadmap? [16:09] <kirkland> nealmcb: and I've asked the commenters to those bugs to open new ones for new issues (as the comment #'s are in the 100s) [16:09] <ScottK-laptop> nealmcb: It's the ClamavSpamassasssin one. [16:09] <nealmcb> [TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap [16:10] <kirkland> nealmcb: I need to update the release notes... i'll go do that now [16:10] <nealmcb> kirkland: thanks! [16:10] <nealmcb> ScottK-laptop: go ahead with ClamavSpamassasssin spec item [16:10] * ScottK-laptop looks around for some help. [16:11] <ScottK-laptop> Lots of people said they wanted these (clamav in particular), but except sommer, no one else has actually done anything. [16:11] <kirkland> ScottK-laptop: are you still looking for MIR-writers? [16:11] <ScottK-laptop> My time this cycle is very limited. [16:11] <ScottK-laptop> Yes. [16:11] <kirkland> ScottK-laptop: mathiaz, or I, or someone could ask for that in a blog entry [16:11] <ScottK-laptop> They aren't very technically hard, you just have to grind through the checklist. [16:11] <ScottK-laptop> kirkland: IIRC mathiaz did that already. [16:11] <arakthor> ScottK-laptop, how do I help with that? [16:11] <kirkland> ScottK-laptop: I've been very pleased with the community response to my blog entries requesting help [16:11] <kirkland> ScottK-laptop: :-S [16:12] <ScottK-laptop> arakthor: Let's chat on #ubuntu-server. I'll explain. [16:12] <arakthor> ok [16:12] <ScottK-laptop> kirkland: I think it must intimidate people, but it's really not that hard. [16:12] <nealmcb> ScottK-laptop: or perhaps you could explain to everyone in a blog entry? or get someone to do that? [16:12] <kirkland> ScottK-laptop: timeconsuming, yes. but hard, no. [16:12] <nijaba> kirkland: and we have an installer option to install a mirror properly? [16:13] <kirkland> nijaba: -> #ubuntu-server [16:13] <ScottK-laptop> nealmcb: If the blog were open to community postings, I'd be more inclined, but that's another issue. [16:13] <jdstrand> ScottK-laptop: wrt clamav in particular (I mentioned this in the last meeting that I was in, but your weren't), I think it would be a great idea to have apparmor profiles for clamd and freshclam. [16:13] <zul> nijaba: eh mirror? [16:13] <jdstrand> ScottK-laptop: this will likely help in getting them accepted into main [16:13] <nealmcb> ScottK-laptop: last week I thought mathiaz invited others to post to the blog [16:13] <ScottK-laptop> jdstrand: I agree, I just would lneed someone to do them. [16:13] <jdstrand> ScottK-laptop: I have a working profile that I can contribute [16:13] <ScottK-laptop> jdstrand: Excellent. [16:14] <nealmcb> <mathiaz> I can create an contributor account for anyone interested in publishing a post on the ubuntuserver blog [ [16:14] <ScottK-laptop> jdstrand: Are they somewhere were I can get them. [16:14] <jdstrand> ScottK-laptop: I'm currently using clamsmtp, so we'd need to get milter and amavis bits going [16:14] <ScottK-laptop> nealmcb: Thanks. I wasn't here last week. [16:14] <ScottK-laptop> jdstrand: Right. [16:14] <jdstrand> ScottK-laptop: not yet, but I can make them available [16:14] <ScottK-laptop> jdstrand: I can test with amavisd-new. [16:15] <nealmcb> ScottK-laptop: so should I give you an action to get a blog account and post :) [16:15] <jdstrand> ScottK-laptop: I can't imagine it'd be much more than just adding the spool dir for each... [16:15] <ScottK-laptop> nealmcb: Not needed, but if you want to. [16:15] <jdstrand> ScottK-laptop: I'll post them somewhere and ping you [16:16] <ScottK-laptop> jdstrand: Thanks. [16:16] <ScottK-laptop> That's it. Please note the plea for help in the minutes. [16:16] <nealmcb> [ACTION] ScottK will post a blog request for help with the ClamavSpamassasssin MIRs [16:17] <nealmcb> [TOPIC] other items from the roadmap - more spec updates? [16:18] <zul> calendaring spec is still being worked on but a little progress has been made [16:18] <kirkland> nealmcb: Init Script Status Actions... [16:19] <kirkland> nealmcb: I'm working on the remaining unpatched ones here... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InitScriptStatusActions [16:19] <nealmcb> kirkland: great - thanks [16:19] <nealmcb> zul - looking for help? [16:19] <kirkland> nealmcb: great initial response by the community after the blog post, though new patches are getting fewer and farther between [16:19] <kirkland> nealmcb: I'm going to try and finish the rest of the server ones by the end of the week [16:20] <kirkland> nealmcb: I'd recommend the very capable individuals here in this meeting to help by fixing any init scripts that they know and love on their own servers ;-) [16:21] <nealmcb> kirkland: right - another good way to get involved with some easy patches [16:21] <zul> nealmcb: nope im good [16:21] <nealmcb> hear-ye hear-ye :) [16:21] <kirkland> nealmcb: yes, for sure, very easy, and very obvious/functional [16:21] <nealmcb> soren: anything on Ubuntu VM Builder? [16:23] <soren> Not since last meeting, I think. [16:23] <nealmcb> [TOPIC] UFW Package Integration - jdstrand [16:24] <jdstrand> as of yesterday, ufw now has support for package integration [16:24] <nealmcb> :) [16:24] <sommer> cool [16:24] <jdstrand> basically, packages can declare themselves to ufw, and users can then use these 'profiles' in ufw rules [16:24] <ScottK-laptop> jdstrand: Any chance we'll get the "Hey, you're about to cut off the ssh connection you're connecting through" option for Intrepid? [16:24] <nealmcb> note the ufw updates hot off the keyboards of jdstrand at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap [16:25] <jdstrand> eg, apache2 registers itself with ufw, and a user can do: [16:25] <jdstrand> ufw allow Apache [16:25] <jdstrand> or [16:25] <jdstrand> ufw allow 'Apache Full' [16:26] <jdstrand> ScottK-laptop: I am considering that a 'normal bug'. I may be able to get to it, but it's on my todo list [16:26] <ScottK-laptop> OK. [16:26] <jdstrand> people can read all about the ufw application integration at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFirewall [16:26] <ScottK-laptop> I think in the spirit of "Ubuntu" we really ought to have that. [16:26] <ScottK-laptop> I thought it was Uncomplicated Firewall? [16:26] <jdstrand> what is needed though, is for people to update packages to 'register' themselves with ufw [16:27] <jdstrand> ScottK-laptop: it is, unfortunately, I don't have an 'uncomplicated todo list' :P [16:27] <kirkland> jdstrand: do you have an instructional wiki page on how to do that? [16:27] <jdstrand> I will, as always, accept patches :) [16:27] <ScottK-laptop> Of course. [16:28] <jdstrand> kirkland: I am writing it now [16:28] <jdstrand> (well, not _now_, but after the meeting) [16:28] <kirkland> jdstrand: with a list of packages that need to be registered? [16:28] <nealmcb> what happens when multiple packages claim a port? [16:28] <jdstrand> nealmcb: ufw doesn't care who claims what [16:28] <jdstrand> nealmcb: eg, a profile might look like: [16:29] <jdstrand> [Apache] [16:29] <jdstrand> title=Web Server [16:29] <jdstrand> description=Apache v2 is the next generation of the omnipresent Apache web server. [16:29] <jdstrand> ports=80/tcp [16:29] <nealmcb> so they would basically be aliases for ways to open the port? [16:29] <jdstrand> so 'boa' might have a similar decalration [16:29] <jdstrand> a user can use 'ufw allow Boa', and it'll just open up that port-- if later apache is installed, it's still open [16:29] <jdstrand> nealmcb: yes [16:30] <nealmcb> what if someone thinks they can open apache but close lighttpd? [16:30] <jdstrand> 'ufw status' shows these aliases. eg: [16:30] <jdstrand> To Action From [16:30] <jdstrand> -- ------ ---- [16:30] <jdstrand> Apache DENY Anywhere [16:30] <jdstrand> but, ufw now has 'status verbose', that will show what is actually open (ie without the alias) [16:31] <nealmcb> (both on port 80) - do both show up in the ufw status? both closed? [16:31] <jdstrand> nealmcb: if you did both 'Apache' and 'Boa', they both show up, and rule ordering then is in effect (eg, if one was ALLOW and the other DENY) [16:31] <nealmcb> of course they'll have other problems with two active web servers :/ but it might be confusing [16:32] <NeilW> jdstrand: how does ufw shut off the access if the package is uninstalled? [16:32] <jdstrand> nealmcb: the actually iptables rule is identical, with the exception that there is a tag (using -m comment) that links the iptables rule to an application profile [16:32] <nealmcb> hmm - the allow/deny stuff will add to the confusion. perhaps warning about overlaps would be better? [16:32] <ScottK-laptop> See you all later. [16:33] <nealmcb> ScottK: thanks! [16:33] <nealmcb> jdstrand: but probably not a big deal for now.... [16:33] <jdstrand> NeilW: by default, installed a program will not automatically do anything. however, you can use 'ufw app default allow|deny' to change that [16:34] <NeilW> jdstrand: yes, I'm thinking that a user has switched it on, and then uninstalled the package - leaving a hole. [16:34] <jdstrand> NeilW: then there is an opportunity for applications to add themselves to the running firewall during postinst [16:34] <jdstrand> NeilW: on package removal, the iptables rule remains until the user deletes it [16:35] <NeilW> So we need to pre/postrm check it. [16:35] <jdstrand> NeilW: for the most part, there isn't a lot of 'I'll do this automatically for you' [16:35] <jdstrand> NeilW: what can be done is that if you choose to change the port in the profile, you can run 'ufw app update <profile>' and it will update all rules referencing the profile to use the new port [16:36] <nealmcb> sound like some sort of dynamic package dependency - has that topic ever come up? [16:36] <jdstrand> nealmcb: dynamic package dependency? [16:36] <jdstrand> nealmcb: ufw works just fine without or without profiles installed or used [16:37] <jdstrand> nealmcb: I will detail how to update packages to 'register' themselves with ufw [16:37] <jdstrand> nealmcb: it isn't all that different from packages providing their own apparmor profiles [16:38] <nealmcb> I'm wondering if there are other cases of one package associating itself with another package, after install, such that the user would get warned about the situation when uninstalling the 2nd package [16:38] <jdstrand> nealmcb: can you provide a specific example? [16:38] <nealmcb> No - must a thought - apparmor sounds related [16:39] <nealmcb> anything else on specs? [16:39] <jdstrand> nealmcb: perhaps if I describe where help is needed, it will be more clear [16:39] <nealmcb> jdstrand: I'm sure it will, since this is so new to me :) [16:40] <jdstrand> I need community members to update packages to 'register' themselves with ufw. there are a few priority packages in ServerTeam/Roadmap, mostly ones in the server tasksel list [16:40] <nealmcb> sommer: anything on documentation? [16:40] <jdstrand> this is great for developing packaging skills, and not too hard [16:40] <sommer> almost have the ldap section converted to the new cn=config backend [16:40] <nealmcb> jdstrand: want to do a blog post? [16:40] <nijaba> jdstrand: you may want to send an email on #ubuntu-devel, don't you think? [16:41] <nealmcb> right [16:41] <jdstrand> sommer: most probably-- the man page is pretty clear, you can look at that and let me know what you think [16:41] <sommer> jdstrand: sure... I've been meaning to get with you about ufw :) [16:41] <jdstrand> the basic idea is to have a package install a profile into /etc/ufw/applications.d [16:41] <jdstrand> adjust control to 'Suggests: ufw [16:41] <jdstrand> ' [16:42] <jdstrand> then adjust maintainer scripts to run 'ufw app update --add-new <profile>' on install, and cleanup after itself on purge [16:42] <jdstrand> I'm going to of course document all this, and plan to send an email to ubuntu-server [16:43] <jdstrand> nealmcb: sure, and ubuntu-devel [16:43] <jdstrand> nealmcb: the package dependencies are very loose-- ufw doesn't have any, and packages only Suggests ufw [16:44] <tarvid> after 20+ installations and 100+ updates, i feel qualified to return to the drupal on ubuntu issue [16:45] <nealmcb> sommer: thanks for the ldap stuff - anything else there? [16:45] <nealmcb> tarvid: cool - lets do that in Open Discussion - hold a bit [16:45] <sommer> nealmcb: that's pretty much it since the last meeting [16:45] <jdstrand> this package integration isn't too exciting with something as simple as apache, but with samba, it is pretty cool [16:45] <nealmcb> [TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule [16:45] <jdstrand> ufw allow Samba [16:45] <jdstrand> that will open up all kinds of stuff :) [16:45] <jdstrand> anyhoo, that's about it [16:46] * nealmcb hugs jdstrand [16:46] <nealmcb> drumroll.... August 28th FeatureFreeze [16:46] * jdstrand hugs nealmcb back :) [16:46] <nealmcb> Anything else we need to review as we prepare for the big feature freeze? Remember, it gets harder to put cool stuff in after that..... [16:47] <NeilW> Rails support [16:48] <nealmcb> rails, drupal, and hey, how about django (near 1.0...) [16:48] <nealmcb> tarvid: why don't you go ahead now - you started first [16:48] <nealmcb> [TOPIC] Drupal [16:50] <tarvid> there have been 9 updates and major upgrade in the past year [16:50] <tarvid> most of them are security related and the update process from ubuntu is to slow to be responsive to the security needs [16:51] <tarvid> plus the package in the repository installs in var/www [16:51] <tarvid> I nver use the debian/ubuntu package anymore [16:51] <tarvid> do we want to take a fresh approach? [16:51] <nijaba> tarvid: what would you suggest? [16:52] <tarvid> installation from drupal.org is straight forward but using apt-get would be consistent with server users [16:52] <tarvid> we would have to package major modules as well [16:52] <tarvid> is that a good project for Ubuntu? [16:53] <nijaba> tarvid: Drupal is sure quite widely used, even on ubuntu.com [16:53] <tarvid> i do watch the security announcements daily [16:54] <tarvid> a user space install requires a dns entry (or hosts) an apache stanza, a user account [16:54] <nealmcb> tarvid: what are the current versions in ubuntu and upstream? How does upstream do updates - patches to versions we have? or new versions? [16:55] <tarvid> there is one drupal module drush which can take over the update issue [16:56] <tarvid> pool/universe/d/drupal5/drupal5_5.7-1ubuntu1_all.deb [16:56] <tarvid> current version is 5.10 and 6.4 [16:57] <tarvid> there are newer but still vulnerable versions in intrepid [16:57] <nealmcb> who is packaging it for ubuntu? [16:58] <tarvid> Maintainer: Ubuntu MOTU Developers <firstname.lastname@example.org> [16:58] <tarvid> Original-Maintainer: Luigi Gangitano <email@example.com> [16:58] <nealmcb> ahh - it is "drupal5" package [16:58] <tarvid> drupal5 is not all bad, drupal6 is not mature and drupal7 is in test [16:58] <nealmcb> http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=names&keywords=drupal [16:59] <nijaba> tarvid: so, if I understand you correctly, we should provide security updates more often and provide packages for the main modules? Would you be willing to work on this? [16:59] <tarvid> i work on drupal daily on ubuntu servers [16:59] <tarvid> with a small amount of discipline and personal development I could take on packaging [17:00] <tarvid> there are some policy issues [17:00] <tarvid> drupal provides patches for current versions but only for the previous release so we see version upgrades all the time [17:01] <tarvid> major version upgrades are difficult as modules are decommited and replaced frequently [17:01] <nealmcb> tarvid: have you talked with Luigi or other packagers? They'd probably welcome patches :) [17:01] <tarvid> I don't do patches, I do minor version upgrades [17:01] <nealmcb> but yeah - backporting patches is a pain [17:01] <tarvid> and we would have to do both d5 and d6 and soon d7 [17:02] <jdstrand> tarvid: I'm not clear on what you are proposing-- use 'drush', which automatically update the drupal install? [17:02] <tarvid> drush will update the modules but not the core [17:03] <jdstrand> (I am unfamiliar with drupal) [17:03] <tarvid> the drupal procedure for core is safe but odious [17:03] <jdstrand> (well, it's packaging/update procedures) [17:03] <tarvid> i have gotten away with overwriting and existing installation with new core on d6, on d5 you have to preserve the old config file [17:04] <tarvid> there is no way of automating d5 to d6 upgrades [17:04] <jdstrand> tarvid: ok, so drush for modules, and minor version updates for core? [17:04] <tarvid> that has worked for me, I have screwed that up with major version upgrades [17:05] <tarvid> and the apache boys do not like what you have to do with apache config "allow all" [17:05] <jdstrand> tarvid: so you are suggesting a new packaged minor version upgrade for -security each time core has a security vulnerability? [17:05] <tarvid> that would work and might be the easiest route [17:05] <tarvid> the user will get punished for patching drupal core [17:06] <tarvid> if the proprieties are observed, it is safe [17:06] <jdstrand> tarvid: assuming the user does it on his/her own [17:06] <jdstrand> tarvid: is it that much more of a pain to backport a patch than to prepare a new package version, and all the extra testing involved? [17:06] <tarvid> many drupal users are not sophisticated and avoiding disaster would be a kind thging to do [17:07] <jdstrand> the main problem I see is that drupal is community supported (ie universe), but not getting as much attention as is apparently required... [17:07] <tarvid> maybe, drush for example depends on the version numver to decide what to download when asked to install a module [17:07] <nealmcb> we want to get to rails also - can we take this to #ubuntu-server or the mailing list [17:08] <tarvid> there is also a netbeans beta for php and drupal which would be nifty to offer [17:08] <jdstrand> tarvid: we have a procedure for micro version updates at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions [17:08] <macd> nealmcb, Im here with regards to rails, not sure if NeilW is or not [17:09] * NeilW waves [17:09] <nealmcb> macd: nice - NeilW is also [17:09] <macd> Oh, Hi there, I just wandered in [17:09] <nealmcb> so moving on.... [17:09] <tarvid> netbeans does rails also [17:10] <tarvid> and i have a masochistic urger for java server alongside php [17:10] <nealmcb> [ACTION] tarvid to summarize drupal issues and propose something to the mailing list [17:10] <nealmcb> ok? [17:10] <tarvid> will do and let you move on. [17:10] <nealmcb> :) [17:10] <nealmcb> [TOPIC] Rails Integration and Rubygems [17:10] <nealmcb> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080722 and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080729 [17:10] <nealmcb> NeilW, macd ^? [17:11] <NeilW> Essentially I need some guys with commit privileges to review the Passenger package. [17:11] <NeilW> Mathias has done a sterling job so far. [17:11] <macd> NeilW, you updated it last week right? [17:12] <NeilW> It's bang up to date with the 2.0.3 release which is as far as Passenger goes before Feature Freeze. [17:12] <macd> NeilW, for sure there [17:13] <macd> What about RubyGems do we have any upstream communication, or are we just going to try and move away from upstream there? [17:13] * macd recalls those are being the 2 major things outstanding [17:14] <NeilW> Upstream are going to release 1.3.0 in the next few days. I have good communication with the Rubygems developers. [17:14] * nealmcb guesses that this is not about the top google hit for passenger rails [amtrak], though he can highly recommend amtrak as a civilized way to travel :P [17:15] <NeilW> I have a Rubygems package in place that allows Passenger to work properly. [17:15] <nealmcb> http://www.modrails.com/ [17:16] <nealmcb> aka "phusion passenger" [17:16] <macd> NeilW, does the upstream 1.3.0 fix the path issues that have been an issue? [17:17] <NeilW> No, that is entirely down to policy. [17:18] <NeilW> So do we want Passenger in Intrepid? [17:19] <macd> I think that is the overall goal [17:19] <NeilW> Anybody else? [17:19] <macd> then the next release move towards a rails app server install task [17:19] <nealmcb> so you were asking for review - so you think mathias will be able to do that in time, or are you looking for other help [17:19] <NeilW> I need 2 AFAIK [17:19] <macd> nealmcb, it needs at least 2 acks, mathiaz is only 1 ;) [17:20] <nealmcb> ahh [17:20] <macd> so a few other reviewers would be great [17:20] <nealmcb> can you all post something about it to the list or blog also? sounds of interest to lots of folks [17:20] <NeilW> Which list? [17:21] <nealmcb> firstname.lastname@example.org [17:21] <nealmcb> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-server [17:21] <NeilW> I did that a while ago and didn't get a lot of takers. [17:22] <NeilW> The Ubuntu Ruby guys are well hidden! [17:22] <NeilW> Happy to have another go though. [17:22] <macd> or just non-existant ;) [17:22] <NeilW> I think there is a wider discussion about Ubuntu and Ruby [17:22] <nealmcb> I don't remember hearing about passenger before, sounds interesting [17:22] <macd> I think I sent something out on the MOTU list a few weeks ago too [17:23] <macd> asking for package reviewers [17:23] <nealmcb> anyway - thanks! [17:23] <nealmcb> [TOPIC] Open Discussion? [17:23] <nealmcb> I know we're over time, but if there is some burning issue... [17:23] <NeilW> soren: Is anything happening with Cobbler [17:24] <zul> soren: ^^^ [17:26] <nealmcb> [TOPIC] Next meeting - same time same place next week? [17:27] <sommer> sure [17:27] * nealmcb is glad to see signs of life :) [17:27] <nealmcb> OK folks - thanks! [17:27] * nijaba agrees [17:27] <nijaba> thanks nealmcb [17:27] <nealmcb> :) [17:28] <sommer> thanks nealmcb, later on all :) [17:28] <nealmcb> now the hard part - minutes! Unless someone else wants to do that....