20161018
Agenda
- Review ACTION points from previous meeting
- (jamespage) checkin with old iscsitarget users on relevancy with new kernels
- Development Release
http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-y-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
- Active work that may need wider communication
Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
- Upcoming Call For Papers
- Ubuntu Server Team Events
- Open Discussion
- Announce next meeting date, time and chair
ACTION: meeting chair (of this meeting, not the next one) to carry out post-meeting procedure (minutes, etc) documented at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase
Minutes
Review ACTION points from previous meeting
The discussion about "Review ACTION points from previous meeting" started at 16:03.
- No Status: (jamespage) checkin with old iscsitarget users on relevancy with new kernels
Yakkety Development
The discussion about "Yakkety Development" started at 16:05.
LINK: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
LINK: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-y-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
Release Bugs (16:09)
- Need to update this for Zesty
Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
The discussion about "Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)" started at 16:11.
LINK: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
- Everything looks covered at the moment
Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
The discussion about "Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)" started at 16:12.
- Finished yakkety ISO testing
- Focus on cloud-init integration test development
Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
The discussion about "Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)" started at 16:14.
- No update
Upcoming Call For Papers
The discussion about "Upcoming Call For Papers" started at 16:15.
- CFP for OSCON is Oct 25
- FOSDEM is Oct 31.
Ubuntu Server Team Events
The discussion about "Ubuntu Server Team Events" started at 16:20.
- No updates
Open Discussion
The discussion about "Open Discussion" started at 16:23.
- cpaelzer brought up QEMU 2.5 micro releases
- cpaelzer brought up VNIC offloads
LINK: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#New_upstream_microreleases fwiw, MRE is for (aiui) bugfix microreleases upstream
ACTION: cpaelzer investigating severity of issues covered by qemu 2.5. stable releases and ask other Teams on their input
LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjlyutCppcU&list=PLrninrcyMo3IkTvpvM2LK6gn4NdbFhI0G&index=10
ACTION: cpaelzer will try to ask Stephen Hemminger for more data on the netdev presentation
ACTION: powersj to update agenda to remove yakkety add in zesty
Assigned merges/bugwork (rbasak)
The discussion about "Assigned merges/bugwork (rbasak)" started at 16:43.
- Update sheet
- Remove this topic from copy/paste
Announce next meeting date, time and chair
The discussion about "Announce next meeting date, time and chair" started at 16:44.
Meeting Actions
- (cpaelzer) investigating severity of issues covered by qemu 2.5. stable releases and ask other Teams on
their input
- (cpaelzer) will try to ask Stephen Hemminger for more data on the netdev presentation
- (powersj) to update agenda to remove yakkety add in zesty and update copy/paste commands
Agree on next meeting date and time
Next meeting will be on Tuesday, May 31st at 16:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting. beisner will be chair.
Log
16:03] <powersj> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team [16:03] <meetingology> Meeting started Tue Oct 18 16:03:10 2016 UTC. The chair is powersj. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [16:03] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: [16:03] <powersj> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting [16:03] <powersj> (jamespage) checkin with old iscsitarget users on relevancy with new kernels [16:04] <powersj> anything here? [16:04] <jgrimm> powersj, if we don't get an update in next irc meeting, i'll work via email [16:05] <powersj> ok, moving on [16:05] <powersj> #topic Yakkety Development === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Yakkety Development [16:05] <powersj> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/ReleaseSchedule [16:05] <nacc> that should be Zesty now, right? [16:05] <powersj> done with this topic now? [16:05] <powersj> :) [16:05] <jgrimm> :) [16:05] <cpaelzer> nacc: it is not there yet [16:05] <powersj> any lingering or post-release yakkety issues? [16:06] <nacc> cpaelzer: which is not? [16:06] <jgrimm> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core [16:06] <jgrimm> just a reminder that the blueprint is open for business that we want to track ^^ [16:07] <rharper> jgrimm: we may want to add the /boot install outcome [16:07] <powersj> great! anything else for yakkety or zesty dev? [16:07] <jgrimm> rharper, agreed. i'll fix now [16:07] <nacc> jgrimm: would you be ok with adding putting the importer live to the blueprint? or should we keep it unofficial? :) [16:07] <rharper> I think rbasak was going to take that to ubuntu-devel as well [16:08] <jgrimm> rharper, yep [16:08] <jgrimm> nacc, feel free to use blueprint for it (or create new separate and link) [16:08] <nacc> jgrimm: thanks [16:08] <jgrimm> its not terribly formal.. however we feel it helps us be effective. [16:08] <nacc> absolutely [16:09] <jgrimm> rharper, added /boot to blueprit [16:09] <jgrimm> blueprint even [16:09] <powersj> ok moving on [16:09] <powersj> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-y-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server [16:09] <powersj> wwops [16:09] <powersj> #subtopic Release Bugs [16:10] <powersj> do we have rbasak? [16:10] <nacc> i recollect seeing in my scrollback he might be out [16:10] <jgrimm> ah, new stuff in the report at least [16:10] <powersj> ah yes he is out today [16:11] <jgrimm> powersj, i just did a quick look at the y report. all have owners or in progress that I don't see anything worth bringing up here. [16:11] <powersj> jgrimm: thank you! moving on [16:11] <powersj> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou) === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou) [16:11] <powersj> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server [16:12] <jgrimm> powersj, caribou unable to make it today, sent status ahead of time that he had nothing to bring up today [16:12] <powersj> making this easy on me ;) [16:12] <powersj> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj) === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj) [16:12] <powersj> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/ [16:12] <powersj> Yakkety ISO testing last week, few issues with ppc64el and ppc [16:13] <powersj> Focus is on cloud-init integration testing. Goal is still to have something working by Friday in our jenkins (linked above) [16:13] <powersj> any questions for me? [16:13] <smoser> powersj, woot! [16:13] <jgrimm> looks good. will be great to have cloud-init integration tests finally ! [16:13] <powersj> :) [16:14] <powersj> ok moving on then [16:14] <cpaelzer> I still feel too red on the migration tests powersj [16:14] <cpaelzer> is the ball currently with you or me ? [16:14] <powersj> cpaelzer: I agree - let me remind myself of status later today and send you mail [16:14] <cpaelzer> powersj: I'll let you remind yourself :-P [16:14] <powersj> :) [16:14] <powersj> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee) === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee) [16:14] * cpaelzer stops stropping people reminding things [16:15] <cpaelzer> stopping even [16:15] <smb> Nothing to report from here [16:15] <powersj> ok [16:15] <powersj> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers [16:16] <powersj> anything here? [16:16] <jgrimm> checking [16:17] <jgrimm> CFP for OSCON is Oct 25, FOSDEM is Oct 31. [16:18] <jgrimm> powersj, fwiw.. i usually rely upon the LWN CFP deadline page. [16:18] <powersj> jgrimm: good to know, I will go read that after this [16:19] <powersj> anything else from folks? [16:19] <rharper> jgrimm: link ? [16:19] <rharper> just # link it here [16:19] <jgrimm> #link http://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/ [16:20] <powersj> excellent, thank you! [16:20] <jgrimm> np [16:20] <powersj> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events [16:20] <smoser> is zesty open for uploads ? [16:20] <jgrimm> good question [16:20] <cpaelzer> smoser: not a few hours ago [16:20] <cpaelzer> smoser: I saw xnox having extra work since not all things were ready [16:21] <cpaelzer> smoser: so I wouldn't rush things today unless we hear a "go" [16:21] <nacc> i'm seeing stuff go into z-p on #ubuntu-release [16:21] <jgrimm> ooo > Unapproved: mistral (zesty-proposed/universe) [3.0.0-1 => 3.0.0-1ubuntu1] (no packageset [16:21] <nacc> but that might be an artifact of the copy forward? [16:21] <nacc> not sure [16:21] <nacc> the /topic says its still closed [16:21] <cpaelzer> well then it was resolved in the last few hours [16:21] <cpaelzer> but copy? [16:21] <jgrimm> so some bits getting close [16:21] <cpaelzer> yeah ack [16:22] <powersj> anyting for team events? [16:22] <powersj> anything rather [16:23] <powersj> ok, moving on [16:23] <powersj> #topic Open Discussion === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion [16:23] <cpaelzer> I have two topics for this one [16:24] <cpaelzer> One would be a discussion on proactive stable updates for qemu [16:24] <cpaelzer> I found that 2.5 got 2.5.1 and 2.5.1.1 upstream [16:24] <cpaelzer> FYI - http://paste.ubuntu.com/23344536/ [16:24] <cpaelzer> the CVEs are already in by the security Team [16:24] <cpaelzer> 2.5 is Xenial = LTS [16:24] <nacc> cpaelzer: would this be a MRE kind of thing? [16:24] <nacc> Micro Release Exception [16:24] <cpaelzer> that is kind of what I'm wondering about [16:24] <rharper> I don't think so [16:25] <rharper> those are all bugs (just not filed against xenial) [16:25] <cpaelzer> I'd think since it is only bug fixes not [16:25] <cpaelzer> rharper: exactly [16:25] <nacc> rharper: ah ok [16:25] <cpaelzer> I would suggest I open a bug and work against that over the next time, but wanted to ask for any objections [16:25] <cpaelzer> like "we usually don't because ..." [16:25] <rharper> I think we should chat with the openstack team [16:25] <nacc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#New_upstream_microreleases fwiw, MRE is for (aiui) bugfix microreleases upstream [16:25] <rharper> they possibly have a similar cadence of changes/fixes [16:25] <cpaelzer> FYI - debian hasn't got to them since all releases are on 2.4.* or 2.6.* now [16:26] <nacc> that's what i followed for php7.0, e.g. [16:26] <rharper> nacc: ah, nice [16:26] <cpaelzer> nacc: interesting [16:26] <nacc> it just puts it on the SRU team radar to approve a 'new' upstream version (not normally allowed) in the SRU [16:26] <cpaelzer> ok, without objection I think I'll handle this as such microrelease [16:26] <rharper> cpaelzer: won't that increase delta? [16:27] <rharper> until sync? [16:27] <cpaelzer> rharper: it will increase the delta to something that isn't maintained - that is what I tried to say above [16:27] <nacc> cpaelzer: fyi, LP: #1569609 is how i filed it [16:27] <cpaelzer> Debian is either on <2.5 or >2.5 on all releases [16:27] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1569609 in php7.0 (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU] microrelease exception for src:php7.0" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1569609 [16:27] <nacc> and y is already on 2.6.x right? [16:28] <nacc> rharper: so this would only be for x, aiui [16:28] <cpaelzer> yes Y=2.6 [16:28] <cpaelzer> exactly [16:28] <rharper> well, why not T or P ? [16:28] <cpaelzer> it is only X for all of the Debian/Ubuntu world [16:28] <rharper> I guess I don't get why we're doing it now and only for X ? [16:28] <cpaelzer> rharper: I didn't check the same might apply for T (and update to 2.0) [16:28] <rharper> it's a nice to have [16:28] <nacc> because somebody cares enough to do it? :) [16:28] <rharper> not a care [16:28] <rharper> a _cost_ [16:29] <rharper> which we've not explored w.r.t impact on other choices [16:29] <nacc> i thought cpaelzer was saying the cost was we might get bugs for all of the bugfixes [16:29] <nacc> so we'd be backporting those individually to x [16:29] <rharper> but if we don't get those? [16:29] <nacc> i mean, they are known bugs in the upstream version x is based on [16:29] <rharper> so, in the past, it's been a judgement call during the process [16:29] <cpaelzer> nacc: right, I thought those are known issues and fixing bugs in non emergency mode as a batch would be worth it [16:30] <nacc> rharper: yeah, i'm not sure what makes the most sense [16:30] <rharper> let's continue the discussion w.r.t trade-offs of time vs. benefit; I think jgrimm and openstack folks should opine on the matter [16:30] <jgrimm> cpaelzer, have you done any looking at the bugs fixed to see if any of that list seem critical? [16:31] <rharper> we could discuss this next week and return here with our findings [16:31] <cpaelzer> jgrimm: just slightly, would need a bit more time to do so [16:31] <jgrimm> i do think i can be swayed, as qemu is critical component to our stack [16:31] <nacc> sounds like an action item :) [16:31] <cpaelzer> rharper: that is good, I'll analyze the severity and come back with it [16:31] <rharper> right, and getting some input from other teams [16:31] <rharper> will it increase churn? help them out? [16:32] <cpaelzer> #action cpaelzer investigating severity of issues covered by qemu 2.5. stable releases and ask other Teams on their input [16:32] <meetingology> ACTION: cpaelzer investigating severity of issues covered by qemu 2.5. stable releases and ask other Teams on their input [16:32] <nacc> yeah, the testing impact is a good point, it's an integration point [16:32] <powersj> cpaelzer: was that both of your topics? [16:32] <cpaelzer> that was one [16:32] <rharper> one more =) [16:32] <jgrimm> fwiw, the newton c-a, does _not_ include a y qemu. [16:33] <rharper> jgrimm: it won't until Z [16:33] <rharper> IIUC [16:33] * cpaelzer is moving to second topic [16:33] <rharper> they pull from archive until it goes out of support [16:33] <jgrimm> rharper, ack [16:34] <cpaelzer> that actually was brought up by rharper - which was TL;DR "We should follow-up on this:" in regard to VNIC offloads [16:34] <cpaelzer> I think here is the right place to discuss, unless you prefer doing that via ML [16:35] <cpaelzer> #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjlyutCppcU&list=PLrninrcyMo3IkTvpvM2LK6gn4NdbFhI0G&index=10 [16:35] <rharper> sure; at netdev 1.2 there was a discussion on vnic performance and specifically offload features, in KVM and containers [16:35] <cpaelzer> I checked Xenial and Yakkety and we were already at the recommended setting [16:35] <rharper> exercised on top of 16.04 [16:35] <rharper> I wanted to see the paper/slides so I could get the data [16:35] <cpaelzer> the question is what else could/should we (not?) do based on that [16:36] <cpaelzer> rharper: getting data would be nice - just to see if there are any outliers that we want to care for [16:36] <rharper> yeah [16:36] <rharper> exactly [16:36] <rharper> specifically VM to VM and container to container (LXD) vs. say docker (libnetwork ) [16:36] <rharper> bridge mode vs. something else [16:36] <cpaelzer> what is good is that the most common "huge" case for us will be openstack and that is optimized a lot for east/west traffic in VM/VM [16:37] <rharper> right [16:37] <cpaelzer> about 4 times faster than what they had, but getting access to the data would allow to get from "I assume" to "we know" [16:37] <cpaelzer> and for the container east/west I'm interested to know about [16:37] <cpaelzer> rharper: will you kindly inquire that data? [16:37] <rharper> yeah, I need to look around for more details [16:38] <rharper> the other performance (which I don't know if the video covered) [16:38] <rharper> is small-packet-performance, latency [16:38] <cpaelzer> rharper: the video did not cover the others [16:38] <cpaelzer> rharper: I had it running in background [16:38] <cpaelzer> rharper: didn't come back to it [16:38] <rharper> I ran across an interesting KVM paper on that; [16:38] <cpaelzer> rharper: wait that was Stephen Hemminger right? [16:38] <rharper> yes [16:39] <cpaelzer> I'll likely meet him on Thursday on DPDK Userspace [16:39] <cpaelzer> while I feel buried I tihnk I'll define another action for me [16:39] <cpaelzer> at least to kindly ask for more there [16:39] <rharper> sure [16:39] <cpaelzer> #action cpaelzer will try to ask Stephen Hemminger for more data on the netdev presentation [16:39] <meetingology> ACTION: cpaelzer will try to ask Stephen Hemminger for more data on the netdev presentation [16:39] <powersj> any other actions? [16:40] <cpaelzer> I stalled you long enough - I'm done [16:40] <powersj> any other topics? [16:40] <jgrimm> nacc, .. import status? [16:40] <powersj> yes - shall I update the agenda to say "zesty" instead of "yakkety"? [16:40] <jgrimm> powersj, yes please! [16:40] <brauner> have we agreed on zesty as the new release name? [16:41] <powersj> #ACTION powersj to update agenda to remove yakkety add in zesty [16:41] <meetingology> ACTION: powersj to update agenda to remove yakkety add in zesty [16:41] <rharper> #link http://www.linux-kvm.org/images/d/df/02x11-AspenMario_Smarduch-Migrating_NFV_applicatoins_to_KVM_Guest.pdf [16:41] <jgrimm> brauner: Zesty Zapus [16:41] <nacc> jgrimm: i need to sync with rbasak on tagging and we should be ready for 1.0 [16:41] <powersj> brauner: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/ [16:41] <nacc> jgrimm: importer seemed to run fine last night on the packages we care about, i wanted to confirm with rbasak that all the MRs we did last cycle are tagged [16:42] <jgrimm> cool.. we can start assigning out some merges once done and zesty open for business! [16:42] <nacc> jgrimm: my plan is to update all the lpusip trees by EOW and then we will look to flip over to lpusdp [16:42] <jgrimm> great! [16:42] <nacc> working on documentation today [16:43] <powersj> last call! [16:43] <powersj> #topic Assigned merges/bugwork (rbasak) === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Assigned merges/bugwork (rbasak) [16:44] <powersj> since he is out, just a friendly reminder to update the sheet! [16:44] * jgrimm thought he killed that from agenda [16:44] <powersj> lol it is in the copy and paste page [16:44] <jgrimm> ahhh [16:44] <powersj> I'll remove it [16:44] <jgrimm> thanks [16:44] <powersj> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair [16:44] <powersj> Same time, same place [16:44] <powersj> beisner will be our host [16:45] <powersj> that's all folks! [16:45] <powersj> #endmeeting === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology [16:45] <meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Oct 18 16:45:06 2016 UTC. [16:45] <meetingology> Minutes: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-10-18-16.03.moin.txt [16:45] <rharper> powersj: thanks ! [16:45] <nacc> powersj: thanks! [16:45] <jgrimm> thanks powersj [16:45] <powersj> o/
MeetingLogs/Server/20161018 (last edited 2016-10-18 17:27:07 by powersj)