Ubuntu Wiki

09:05   Keybuk  let's get started
09:05   Keybuk  mdz is on holiday, and has no internet access
09:05   Keybuk  so it's just the two of us today
09:05   mjg59   Right
09:05   Keybuk  first, some administrivia
09:05   mjg59   Anyone for core-dev?
09:05   mjg59   Ah, ok
09:06   Keybuk  people will note that it's been two years since we started using LP to track developers
09:06   Keybuk  so we're starting to get people's team membership expire
09:06   Keybuk  if you're an active developer, you'll be renewed automatically
09:06   Keybuk  if you haven't been active for a while, you may need to reapply via TB meeting again
09:07   siretart        how is the 'activeness' measured? by a human or by soyuz looking at the last upload?
09:07   Keybuk  human
09:07   siretart        k
09:08   Keybuk  one of the TB members will react to the "seb128 has expired!" e-mail, and renew the membership :)
09:08   ogra    do trhe users get them too ?
09:08   Keybuk  yes
09:08   ogra    to have the ability to raise their hands  ?
09:08   ogra    ah, cool
09:09   ogra    i had some for edubuntu recently
09:09   Keybuk  anyway, onwards
09:09   Keybuk  core-dev
09:09   Keybuk  I have nobody in my list
09:09   Keybuk  is there anybody here who's applied for core-dev membership and thinks they should be?
09:10   Keybuk  clearly not
09:10   Keybuk  good
09:11   Keybuk  ubuntu-dev
09:11   Keybuk  again, I have nobody in my l.ist
09:11   Amaranth        https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-core-dev/+members shows 4 people
09:11   Keybuk  is there anybody here who's applied for ubuntu-dev membership and thinks they should be?
09:11   ogra    why is kylem on there ?
09:11   Keybuk  Amaranth: we only consider people who applied since the last TB meeting
09:11   Amaranth        ah, i see
09:11   ogra    he should be uploading already, shouldnt he ?
=== kylem eyebrows.
09:12   Keybuk  those that applied before are people who were turned down at a previous meeting with a "later"
09:12   Keybuk  ogra: playing "join all teams", I expect
09:12   ogra    heh
09:13   Keybuk  ok
09:13   Keybuk  nobody for ubuntu-dev today then
09:13   kylem   ogra, i didn't read far enough that core-dev implied -dev.
09:13   Keybuk  dholbach isn't around, so I assume we will not be discussing Council Greyskull today
09:13   ogra    well, no quorum anyway
09:14   Keybuk  siretart: you have an agenda item, the floor is yours
09:14   Keybuk  ogra: we have Q
09:14   ogra    two is enough ?
09:14   ogra    ah, right, its TB :) not CC
09:14   Keybuk  ogra: yes, TB Q has always been two
09:14   Keybuk  we assume a three man team, and require a simple majority
09:14   siretart        well, status update: I have contacted the techincal board again, this time via email about the ffmpeg issue
09:15   siretart        I filed a MIR about ffmpeg, requested it to be reapproved for main
09:15   Keybuk  yes
09:15   Keybuk  I didn't get the context of the e-mail
09:15   siretart        I'm still not sure what codecs are exactly problematic
09:16   siretart        until that issue is resolved, I'm proposing an interim solution: let's upload xine-lib with its internal partial copy of ffmpeg with no mpeg2 encoding capabilities
09:16   siretart        to main that is
09:16   Keybuk  what uses xine-lib?
09:16   mjg59   Ok. So I've a couple of questions about this, to begin with.
09:16   siretart        since we already have packages like libmad, I'd like to know what issues are to resolve
09:17   siretart        Keybuk: most notable kubuntu (amarok) and xubuntu
09:17   mjg59   1) Is mpeg2 the only actively-enforced-patent-encumbered codec in ffmpeg?
09:17   ogra    Keybuk, totem-xine
09:18   mjg59   We're getting very close to the point where we should drop totem-xine, but that's not strictly important
09:18   siretart        mjg59: 1) I refer to debian/patents.txt quoted on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionFFmpeg. Sam (and me neither) don't know about any further
09:18   Keybuk  ogra: don't we support totem-gstreamer instead?  and the theory of ffmpeg-in-main was that some of the ugly codecs could be in main too?
09:18   siretart        Keybuk: gxine as well
09:18   ogra    Keybuk, right, totem-xine isnt in main either, sorry
09:19   siretart        Keybuk: xine uses ffmpeg not only for codecs. some plugins use the 'libpostproc' library, which has nothing to do about decoding. I expect some other packages as well
09:19   mjg59   siretart: I'm not sold on the "libmad is in main, so ffmpeg should be"
09:19   mjg59   It's equally plausible that libmad being in main is an error
09:20   mjg59   We quite clearly don't ship a useful mp3 player in main, and that's defined as policy
09:20   siretart        mjg59: demotion of libmad would cause quite some trouble, looking at the reverse build-deps
09:20   Keybuk  http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-output/feisty/rdepends/libmad/libmad0
09:21   siretart        mjg59: anyway, if the decision is to demote libmad, then I'd request to demode xine-lib as well. this would however deeply annouy kubuntu and xubuntu users
09:21   Keybuk  I'm not sure why it's still a build-depend
09:21   Mithrandir      mjg59: *cough*; xmms *cough*
09:21   zul     Mithrandir: er...its still kind of brroken
09:21   mjg59   Mithrandir: Seriously? That can't be deliberate.
09:22   Mithrandir      mjg59: done so since warty.
09:22   mjg59   Sigh.
09:22   mjg59   Ok.
09:22   Keybuk  note that main != CD
09:22   mjg59   Let's just ignore the current state of reality. It clearly isn't useful.
09:22   Mithrandir      it might very well be an error, but we quite clearly do, just not in a default install.
09:22   Keybuk  we certainly don't ship any MP3 players on the CD
09:22   Keybuk  that's definitely legally naughty
09:23   mjg59   Right. So.
09:23   Keybuk  on the FTP site is legally wishy-washy because users initiate the download
09:23   siretart        as mentioned, I have already prepared new xine 1.1.3 packages, with the ffmpeg plugin split out to libxine1-ffmpeg. Xine loads its plugins at runtime using dlopen, which makes this convinient
09:23   mjg59   Keybuk: Do we have legal advice on that?
09:23   Keybuk  mjg59: that's my understanding, otherwise we wouldn't ship them in universe
09:23   siretart        so even if we promote ffmpeg and xine-lib uses that, we don't need to put ffmpeg on the CD
09:23   Keybuk  my understanding is that main vs. universe is legally no different, but CD vs. FTP is
09:24   siretart        this was an argument in my email, right
09:24   mjg59   Keybuk: Ok. You're in a better position to check that than I am - is it possible to verify that, just to make sure that we're not doing it unwittingly?
09:24   Keybuk  main vs. universe is simply a matter of which team (core-dev vs. dev) supports the package
09:24   mjg59   Right, clearly there's no legal distinction between main, universe and multiverse
09:25   Riddell people may assume that since main is supported it can be freely used without worrying about getting a patent licence
09:25   Riddell (or they may not)
09:25   mjg59   So based on current practice, providing a xine-lib including ffmpeg would be fine for main, just not for ship
09:25   Keybuk  mjg59: previous legal issues have been somewhat clouded by people shouting "WE'RE GOING TO JAIL!" over the top of sensible discourse  ;)
09:25   Keybuk  mjg59: assuming that xine-lib, xmms, etc. aren't in main by mistake :p
09:26   Keybuk  none of them are seeded, so I'd be willing to believe an FTP master was especially asleep one day
09:26   Riddell we need xine-lib
09:26   mjg59   Keybuk: Well, that pretty much definitely would be "aren't on the FTP server by mistake"
09:26   Riddell and xmms is orders of sabdfl I believe
09:26   Keybuk  but yes, given that xmms and libmad are in main, I don't see the reason that ffmpeg isn't
09:26   mjg59   I'm going to attempt to summarise this, and propose the next step.
09:27   Keybuk  siretart has filed an MIR, that's a request for the archive admins to promote it
09:27   siretart        xmms and ffmpeg are pretty unrelated. xmms uses libmad, which bring in the same legal concers as ffmpeg though
09:27   Keybuk  actually
09:27   Keybuk  sorry
09:27   Keybuk  that's a request for the security team to review it
09:27   Keybuk  so the next step is for pitti or keescook to review the source to determine whether we can provide security support for ffmpeg
09:27   mjg59   (*) Current policy appears to be that patent-encumbered code may be distributed in main, but not in ship.
09:27   Keybuk  if they approve it, then it's a request for the archive admins to promote it once it has been seeded
09:27   Keybuk  anyone in core-dev can modify the seeds
09:28   Keybuk  mjg59: that is my understanding, yes
09:28   mjg59   (*) Based on this, it would be reasonable for a version of xine-lib containing ffmpeg code to be in main. However, any package that becomes part of ship must *not* contain this code.
09:28   siretart        I don't think anyone not in the desktop team dares to touch the seeds ;)
09:28   Keybuk  siretart: hmm, most of core-dev have touched them ?
09:29   siretart        aha? - interesting :)
09:29   mjg59   (*) Therefore, assuming the accuracy of the first observation, the TB has no reason to deny the inclusion of ffmpeg code in main *providing* that the technical implementation allows the ffmpeg code to be split from the core xine-lib binary package
09:30   Keybuk  it may be worth posting that as a summary, and requesting the Community Council's input
09:30   mjg59   (This is predicated upon the accuracy of the first observation. The TB should also internally determine that adequate legal advice has been obtained by Canonical)
09:30   siretart        mjg59: I assume you mean 'binary code' and not 'source code' here
09:30   mjg59   siretart: Either
09:31   Mithrandir      having stuff in main we can't ship on the CDs is a bit bad since people can easily end up including it by mistake by promoting something else.
09:32   mjg59   Mithrandir: This situation already exists. We should ensure that it is hard.
09:33   mjg59   If you feel it's practical, I'd be happy for us to suggest that it be a requirement that the archive allow packages to be tagged as "not ship", or something similar
09:31   Keybuk  I would also add:
09:33   Keybuk  (*) This constitutes a recommendation of the TB, however this recommendation is not binding and the Archive Administrators are permitted to deny this.
09:33   siretart        like putting the binary package 'ffmpeg' (ffmpeg command line utilities) and libxine1-ffmpeg
09:33   siretart        to universe?
09:33   mjg59   Having libxine1-ffmpeg in main should be fine
09:34   Keybuk  why would having ffmpeg in main be not fine?
09:34   mjg59   It's just important that it never somehow end up in ship
09:34   Keybuk  they're useful utilities
09:34   siretart        indeed, they are
09:35   mjg59   Keybuk: Do you want to mail this to people, or shall I?
09:35   Keybuk  mjg59: can you
09:35   mjg59   Ok
09:35   mjg59   Anyone have anything else to add?
09:35   siretart        yes
09:35   Keybuk  siretart: your next step, anyway, is to talk to pitti and keescook and have the MIR approved
09:35   siretart        I'd like an answer to my interim proposal
09:35   Keybuk  regardless of any patent issues, you need their approval
09:35   Keybuk  I don't see how your interim proposal helps anything?
09:35   siretart        read: upload xine-lib and make it use the internal (decoding only) copy
09:36   siretart        Keybuk: it allows having xine-lib 1.1.3 sooner in the archive
09:36   Keybuk  is there a critical or urgent bug this fixes?
09:36   siretart        allowing Riddell to upload a newer amarok
09:36   mjg59   siretart: Given what we've concluded, I don't see any reason for that to be something we need to cover here
09:36   siretart        and buying us additional testing
09:36   mjg59   Do whatever you think is best
09:36   mjg59   With the previous proviso of ensuring that ffmpeg code never appears in ship
09:36   Keybuk  amarok is shipped
09:37   siretart        I think uploading with ffmpeg is best for ubuntu, so we finally get goodies like WMV9 on amd64 :)
09:37   Keybuk  it's part of ubuntu-desktop
09:37   Keybuk               ^
09:37   Keybuk               k
09:37   Keybuk  so that's forbid, under our current reading
09:37   mjg59   siretart: Would the ffmpeg code be in a separate binary package?
09:37   siretart        Keybuk: that's no problem. the ffmpeg code in libxine1-ffmpeg does not need to be in ship. amarok just depends on libxine1
09:37   mjg59   I believe you implied it would be
09:37   siretart        mjg59: yes, I already have such packages ready
09:37   mjg59   Yes, then that's fine. Just ensure that nothing depends on libxine1-ffmpeg.
09:38   siretart        as seen in https://code.launchpad.net/people/siretart/+branch/xine-lib/xine-lib.ubuntu.1.1.3
09:38   siretart        yepp, willdo
09:38   mjg59   Ok. I think we're done with this.
09:38   siretart        thanks
09:38   Keybuk  you may want to check the new source with pitti/keescook
09:38   Keybuk  especially if it contains a complete copy of ffmpeg
09:39   Keybuk  just to make sure it wasn't removed for security reasons
09:39   Keybuk  ok, that's the end of the agenda on my screen
09:39   Keybuk  any other business?
09:40   Keybuk  ok, done
09:40   Keybuk  unless we hear a scream from elmo at this point
09:41   mjg59   Right. I'll email a summary.
09:41   Keybuk  thanks
09:41   Keybuk  I'd mail it to the TB and CC
09:42   siretart        well, he (as debian ftpmaster) has approved it for debian/main
09:42   mjg59   Keybuk: Do I want to mail archive admins?
09:42   siretart        at least, he didn't object
09:42   Keybuk  can do
09:42   Keybuk  siretart: the Debian package has had all of the encoding ripped out, no?
09:42   mjg59   Do we have a list for them?
09:43   Keybuk  ubuntu-archive@lists.ubuntu.com
09:43   siretart        Keybuk: not all. the 'problematic' ones (to the best knowledge of the package maintainer)
09:43   Robot101        siretart: as a slight aside, do you know how this list of "problematic" encoders was arrived at?
09:44   siretart        Robot101: see my mir. the files README.Debian and patents.txt do have a nice summary
10:19   Keybuk  mjg59: nice summary
10:19   Keybuk  personally I'd like to just enable mp3 support in main once and for all :)