20070222
TZ UTC+1
=== ogra will be able to probably attend 10-20 mins (no promises, but it seems i'm currently not urgently needed)... in case you need me for WinFOSS 04:52 cjwatson ogra: let's put that agenda item first then, or you can just follow up to Henrik by mail 04:52 ogra oki 04:52 cjwatson ogra: it's a straight question, so if it can be given a straight answer, mail's fine 04:52 heno agreed 04:53 ogra i'm all for including WinFOSS, but kdeedu isnt moved yet and i know LaserJock is still submitting MIRs ... apart from thyt language packas go first ... 04:53 heno just need to know approximately how much disk space I have to play with (or not) 04:53 ogra so it depends on the final free space 04:53 ogra what the common need of WinFOSS ? 04:53 heno hm, and when do we know that? 04:54 heno from 15 to 100MB 04:54 heno depending on whether you want openoffice 04:54 Riddell need is giving out CDs to people who are unlikely to change operating system, edubuntu CDs tend to be more targeted than ubuntu/kubuntu CDs though 04:55 ogra heno, 100M *with* OO.o ? 04:55 heno right 04:55 ogra heh, i will have 100M for you then ... i was expecting 200 and upwards 04:55 ogra 100 is totally fine 04:56 ogra Riddell, we talk about the add-on CD ... which works on *all* *buntus 04:56 heno OK, that will compliment the other CDs well, as they don't have OOo ATM 04:56 heno I'll also look out for some educational stuff 04:56 Mithrandir pong 04:56 ogra heno, that'd be ubercool ! === dholbach hands ogra an '' 04:57 heno we can have a fixed set of OOo, Firefox and TB say, and other stuff that can optionally give way to language packs 04:57 ogra dholbach, thnks 04:57 heno it's easier to remove stuff than to create content in a hurry :) 04:57 ogra heno, right ... sounds fine, lets do it :) 04:58 heno \o/ 04:58 asac hi all 04:58 heno ok, that's one item settled *before* the meeting 04:58 heno any others ? :) 04:59 ogra i dont mind dropping one or the other exotic language :) its not called the language-cd ;) but i want as many as i can on it, to give benefit to everyone without bandwith 04:59 Riddell heno: are you going to redo the kubuntu winfoss sometime (removing scribus and kdepim)? 04:59 mdz morning 04:59 pitti ogra: width :) 04:59 pitti hey mdz 04:59 heno ogra: just the be clear, the 100 MB quoted is real CD space, not livefs space 04:59 heno Riddell: mostly done, just need to upload 05:00 cjwatson ogra: is this including WinFOSS on the first or the second CD? 05:00 ogra pitti, bah ... can't type today :) 05:00 ogra cjwatson, add-on 05:00 heno can do that after the meeting <- Riddell 05:00 cjwatson ogra: ok, small cdimage change probably required for that, let me know 05:00 ogra cjwatson, ok, will do ... 05:00 Riddell heno: cool 05:01 iwj Oops, wrong server. 05:01 mdz ok, let's get started 05:01 mdz everyone here? === mvo_ waves 05:02 asac me :) 05:02 _kyle ack. 05:02 tkamppeter hi === dholbach too === seb128 as well 05:02 rtg ack 05:02 cjwatson here === pitti waves === Mithrandir jumps up and down 05:02 bdmurray here 05:02 pkl_ here 05:02 heno here === highvoltage is here but just to listen 05:02 mdz seb128,doko,BenC,kwwii: ping 05:03 pitti * seb128 as well 05:03 BenC mdz: pwong 05:03 seb128 mdz: heh, I replied just after dholbach :p 05:03 dholbach do we know about sfllaw? 05:03 mdz seb128: yes, and I missed it due to an xchat bug! 05:04 seb128 iz GTK bog? :p 05:04 BenC mdz: Is that the one where it makes random lines invisible? 05:04 doko pong 05:04 mdz dholbach: sfllaw is not in attendance today 05:04 mdz BenC: in this case it omitted the '*' 05:05 mdz cjwatson: heard from Ken? 05:05 dholbach i talked to him today and pinged him 05:05 cjwatson I see dholbach has beaten me to it 05:05 cjwatson he was active on #ubuntu-devel not that long ago 05:05 dholbach excusez-moi :) 05:05 mdz seb128: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/temp/Screenshot-FreeNode:%20%23ubuntu-meeting.png 05:05 mdz seb128: when there are multiple /me's in succession, it omits the '*' from the succeeding ones 05:06 seb128 mdz: right, it does that here as well 05:06 mdz so when I scan for people I miss them 05:06 mdz ok, let's get started 05:06 mdz agenda is: 05:06 mdz (pitti) compiz in main or universe, and integration into live system 05:06 seb128 that's probably the "don't repeat the name when several line come from the same person" which gets confused 05:06 mdz (pitti) packaging of beryl, get it into universe 05:06 mdz (heno) Does Edubuntu need WinFOSS? 05:06 mdz (mvo) More people in the SRU verification-needed -> verification-done team? (the step after a fix was uploaded to -proposed, but before it can go to -updates). 05:06 mdz (bdmurray) How to deal with beryl bugs 05:06 mdz (bdmurray) Bug 83726 and similars - power saving mode in Live CD 05:06 Ubugtu Malone bug 83726 in xorg "[feisty] X Display in Power-Saving mode on Startup, LiveCD only" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/83726 05:07 mdz any changes, additions or deletions? 05:07 mdz seb128: yes 05:07 highvoltage hehe. mdz is in #ubuntu-women 05:07 heno the edubuntu winfoss question has been answered 05:07 ogra right ... 05:07 heno (with as yes) 05:08 mdz ok, will delete 05:08 heno *a 05:08 mdz pitti: your floor then 05:08 pitti so, as I wrote on distro-team, I'm not really happy with the state of compiz in main 05:08 pitti with my QA/MIR hat on 05:09 pitti so I talked to sabdfl about our goals for feisty 05:09 seb128 I talked with pitti about it and I think even if compiz has bug we should get it on the CD, because many users look for the cool effect and we should make easy for them to get it 05:09 pitti as you saw on the IRC quote, he would even be fine with having beryl/compiz in universe 05:09 pitti right 05:09 BenC I can confirm that compiz in feisty is very unstable, even compared to compiz-freedesktop(gandalfn) from edgy 05:09 seb128 those users are rather likely to go to some other distro if we don't make that easy 05:09 mdz seb128: yes, in fact that was a requirement from sabdfl 05:09 pitti so I see two options: 05:10 pitti we put it in main and on the CD and live with the brokenness 05:10 mdz pitti: he may have said that, but he contradicted himself in doing so, probably without knowing 05:10 seb128 BenC: weird, the package from feisty is made by gandalfn 05:10 pitti or we leave it in universe and change desktop-effects to install it if people want to enable it 05:10 BenC it's broken for me, whereas his packages on my edgy box are very stable 05:10 seb128 and the new version is not known to unstable 05:10 mdz he doesn't realize that it needs to be in main in order to be activated on the live CD 05:10 BenC cube breaks workspaces 05:10 BenC windows go missing 05:10 seb128 BenC: do you have an ATI card? 05:10 pitti so I'd like to know what we should do 05:10 BenC Intel 945 05:10 seb128 speaking about compiz packaging 05:11 seb128 I just merge sync 0.3.6 with Debian today 05:11 seb128 and synced compiz-extra from there 05:11 mdz pitti: it's important that users be able to switch it on in the default install and on the live CD 05:11 mdz it doesn't have to be bug-free 05:11 pitti mdz: alright, so this question is settled then 05:11 seb128 there is a gnome-compiz-manager to source NEW which is guy to configure compiz, I would appreciate some review help on it, it ships some xfree source files and there is probably cleanup required 05:11 mdz pitti: we can display a warning that it's experimental software 05:11 BenC seb128: I use that a lot 05:12 pitti mdz: it's not really a question of 'bug free', but rather 'is it usable at all', so I'd really add a disclaimer somewhere 05:12 mdz in fact I think desktop-effects already may 05:12 mdz many people are using it on Ubuntu anyway, so it is usable for some 05:12 pitti there's no disclaimer yet, but at least it has a nice handling of 'do you wnat to keep these settings' 05:12 mdz I believe Mithrandir is using it 05:12 kwwii sorry for being late 05:12 Mithrandir mdz: I was for a while, then got bored of not having enough workspaces and switched back to openbox. 05:12 seb128 pitti: it works fine with intel cards 05:13 pitti mdz: right, intel cards are basically the only platform where it works 05:13 seb128 for ATI users we need "Option "XAANoOffscreenPixmaps" "true"", does anybody knows if we could add that option by default to xorg.conf or if that's a bad idea? 05:13 pitti seb128: I experimented with that and it seriously degraded performance, as well as introducing strange screen effects 05:13 seb128 and EXA? 05:13 mdz seb128: I don't, but I can tell you who can answer that question (email me) 05:14 seb128 mdz: ok, will do 05:14 pitti seb128: also, this should go into the non-free driver configuration tool that Keybuk wrote 05:14 seb128 pitti: well, the option is for the free driver 05:14 seb128 fglrx doesn't work for compiz 05:14 pitti seb128: ah, right 05:14 pitti seb128: well, but you can forget the free driver anyway, it's unusably slow 05:14 seb128 it's not for me 05:14 pitti alright, but no need to reiterate 05:14 seb128 I use the radeon driver and it works really fine on my desktop 05:15 ogra i'd like to point out that i'd lik to have a possibility to disable these options if we write them to xorg.conf 05:15 pitti I'm fine with mdz's word 05:15 mdz ok 05:15 mdz nsext 05:15 mdz (pitti) packaging of beryl, get it into universe 05:16 doko seb128: the FireGL ATI cards don't support it at all 05:16 ogra ltsp already had some probs were flash stopped working on certain cards because of the AIGLX stuff which you can only disable through hacking xorg.conf ... 05:16 pitti right, someone needs to do that 05:16 seb128 beryl has been packaged 05:16 pitti do we have anyone who is interested? 05:16 ogra which is no option in ltsp, it needs to be preseedable 05:16 seb128 and rejected for license problems 05:16 pitti right, the compiler stuff needs to be sorted out 05:16 seb128 upstream is going to fix them for 0.2 05:16 Mithrandir as well as the pixmaps. 05:16 cjwatson pixmaps we could tolerate 05:17 doko does it use icc? 05:17 Mithrandir doko: no. 05:17 mdz seb128: when is 0.2? 05:17 Mithrandir cjwatson: they're technically just large char * structs in a C file. I'm not sure that's ok, wrt GPL. 05:18 Mithrandir (it's almost certainly not the preferred form of modification) 05:18 seb128 mdz: no idea, I've read some mails but I don't follow beryl, I work on the compiz packages and that's enough for me 05:18 seb128 (and beryl is an evil fork) 05:18 cjwatson ok, if it's linked in then that could be problematic 05:18 cjwatson although I think that particular interpretation is probably excessively strict, given that the PFoM is probably an image file and pixmaps basically are that 05:19 mdz I don't think it's necessary to provide both compiz and beryl 05:19 Mithrandir cjwatson: there's no way to load it into an image editor. It's not an xpm. 05:19 iwj You mean xpm's ? That's just a compilable image format. 05:19 iwj Mithrandir: Oh, that's silly. === ogra has to leave the room .... 05:19 mdz we will only put one of them in the default install, and there it seems compiz is a better choice === ogra waves === _kyle blinks. 05:19 Mithrandir iwj: you can't load xpms into opengl textures without some kind of converter, and it's an opengl texture. 05:19 mdz for beryl we should accept it into universe 05:20 cjwatson it's probably a silly image format, but surely the translation is absolutely trivial? 05:20 Mithrandir mdz: but wait for somebody to package it, or have somebody package it? 05:20 cjwatson I sort of see your point, it just doesn't seem all that interesting 05:20 mdz Mithrandir: it's already packaged aiui 05:21 mdz there are packages out there 05:21 pitti so why cant' we put them into multiverse for now? 05:21 Mithrandir pitti: because it's undistributable. Sourceless GPL-ed files. 05:21 pitti doesn't make much of a difference even for desktop-effects integration (should we do that) 05:21 pitti Mithrandir: ah, right 05:22 Mithrandir "This file is autogenerated from $file; This file is under the GPL" ; no sign of $file. 05:22 pitti ok, so let's just ditch it for now 05:22 Mithrandir oh, and it'd have to go to multiverse anyway, because there is no free compiler for the shaders. 05:22 mdz ok, we don't believe it to be redistributable now, so we can't include it yet 05:22 siretart there are beryl packages sitting in debian/NEW atm 05:22 mdz but someone should monitor that situation and ensure that it gets into universe when it's fixed 05:23 cjwatson monitor> and push if necessary 05:23 mdz siretart: since you're watching it, would you be willing to see that it gets into universe as well? 05:23 gnomefreak beryls already in universe only thing that isnt in feisty is beryl-core 05:24 pitti gnomefreak: only beryl-manager 05:24 gnomefreak oh 05:24 gnomefreak ah thought i saw more 05:24 pitti and it's not "really" there because it's uninstallable 05:25 pitti ok, I don't think we need further discussion right now 05:25 siretart mdz: I'll monitor the situation in debian and arrange things (syncs, etc) as soon as they're ready over there 05:25 mdz siretart: great, thank you 05:25 Mithrandir siretart: please keep me up-to-date on what's going on too, please? 05:25 mdz (mvo) More people in the SRU verification-needed -> verification-done team? (the step after a fix was uploaded to -proposed, but before it can go to -updates). 05:26 mvo it seems that currently only simon is doing this verification. if he is sick or on vacation then the process is stuck. I would like to suggest bdmurray as a backup (if he agrees of course) 05:26 siretart no idea how long it'll take, though. the new queue seems to be growing lately, and I'll probably not be able to work actively on beryl packaging. 05:26 siretart Mithrandir: will do 05:26 mdz mvo: why yes, I think we do need help there; thank you for volunteering! ;-) 05:26 dholbach /query mvo 05:26 pitti http://tinyurl.com/2yx8aj, btw 05:26 mdz mvo: bdmurray is occupied at the moment 05:27 pitti i. e. lots of stuff pending ATM 05:27 cjwatson I already asked bdmurray about this and he preferred not to for the moment 05:27 mdz yes, simon has dropped the ball on this and we need someone else to pick it up 05:27 bdmurray I think I might be able to now 05:28 mvo mdz: I'm ok with doing it as long as I'm not the only one in charge 05:28 mdz it's also important that we do SRUs *only* for serious bugs 05:28 pitti right 05:28 pitti unfortunately edgy has many of those :( 05:28 mvo but that filtering happend before the verfication-needed -> done step 05:28 pitti however, the list is not as bad as it seems, some of them affect universe which have their own team 05:29 cjwatson mvo: we haven't been as strict in the past 05:29 mvo I wouldn't want to do my own SRUs for example 05:29 mdz mvo: it would be good if you could help with it, since you (alone?) are able to verify that the upgrade test succeeded 05:30 mdz which should be a prerequisite for any other verification 05:30 mvo mdz: as I said, I'm fine iwth it. its just that I do not want to verify my own SRUs. I mean, I did that before the upload already :) 05:31 mdz mvo: perhaps bdmurray would be your backup for the ones you produce yourself 05:31 mvo mdz: sounds good 05:31 mdz bdmurray,cjwatson: ? 05:31 mvo mdz: scott (as my manager) may need to agree too 05:31 bdmurray mdz: that works for me 05:31 pitti mdz: if Simon is officially not doing them any more, do you want me to update the process on the wiki page? 05:31 cjwatson I'm ok with that if Brian's happy 05:32 cjwatson yes, Simon is officially not doing them any more 05:32 mvo pitti: I will follow your example and do SRU days 05:32 mdz pitti: yes, it should use a team instead 05:32 pitti we can probably just eliminate that step (mailing Simon), looking by tags does fine 05:32 mdz mvo: please review this proposal with Scott when he is well and confirm 05:32 mvo mdz: I will. thanks 05:32 mdz pitti: sure, if that works for mvo and brian, that's fine 05:32 pitti ACTION: mvo and pitti to discuss new SRU process, update wiki 05:33 pitti ^ and brian 05:33 mdz ok, sounds good 05:33 mdz (bdmurray) How to deal with beryl bugs 05:33 mdz bdmurray: ->same as for other universe bugs :-) 05:34 pitti mdz: but its not in universe 05:34 mdz pitti: but it will be 05:34 mdz is the problem that beryl bugs are being filed in launchpad before the package is there? 05:34 cjwatson ok, bugs on software not in the archive should be rejected 05:34 mdz agreed 05:34 pitti bdmurray: they are assigned to random packages ATM? 05:34 cjwatson i.e. stuff we don'tt ship 05:34 mdz I thought this was about the future 05:35 bdmurray pitti: some end up w/o no package at all 05:35 cjwatson AFAIK it's about bugs that are there right now 05:35 cjwatson when Brian last asked me about this I hadn't realised that beryl-manager wasn't the whole thing 05:35 mdz as Colin says, bugs for software not in the archive have to be rejected 05:35 bdmurray there seem to be packages in lp for beryl-core and beryl-manager 05:36 mdz it's a bit awkward in this case because we *want* it in the archive, but nonetheless we have to wait. we can't even ask whether they're using the proper version when we don't provide one yet 05:36 cjwatson bdmurray: since that isn't all of beryl, we need to find out from the submitter where their beryl packages come from 05:36 bdmurray so accept beryl-manager bugs, we said it is in the archive earlier, but not beryl-core bugs? 05:36 seb128 I'm rejected beryl bugs quite often with a comment saying to contact people shipping the packages they are using 05:36 cjwatson if it's regarding those pieces of beryl that we ship, then we shouldn't reject the bugs, but otherwise they have to go 05:37 pitti since beryl-manager is uninstallable ATM anyway, should we just remove the binaries for now maybe? 05:37 pitti and re-add them when it actually becomes useful? 05:38 seb128 looks like a good idea 05:38 mdz bdmurray: assuming they're using our packages, yes 05:38 mdz bdmurray: but that seems unlikely given that it isn't installable :-) 05:39 bdmurray okay, so we'll point them at the beryl project bug tracker and reject them then. 05:39 mdz ok 05:39 mdz (bdmurray) Bug 83726 and similars - power saving mode in Live CD Ubugtu Malone bug 83726 in xorg "[feisty] X Display in Power-Saving mode on Startup, LiveCD only" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/83726 05:39 bdmurray I've seen quite a few bugs similar to that and wanted to know if anyone had any ideas about it. 05:41 mdz bdmurray: do I understand correctly that the problem is only when booting the live CD? booting the installed system with the same packages works fine? 05:41 mdz if that's not clear, we should confirm that 05:41 bdmurray mdz: checking, I think I read someone had the problem after install too 05:42 bdmurray 85930 indicats it happening after install 05:42 bdmurray 86592 has a possible resolution 05:43 mdz bdmurray: do you know when the problem began? is it a regression in feisty? in a particular milestone? 05:43 mdz bug 86592 05:43 Ubugtu Malone bug 86592 in xorg "Live CD Installer causes screen to turn off when X starts" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/86592 05:44 bdmurray I see someone indicating it happened for them on Herd 3 05:44 bdmurray I don't recall seeing it for Herd 2 05:45 mdz bdmurray: if it's a regression, the best approach is to find out where it regressed. that will help isolate the bug 05:46 bdmurray mdz: okay 05:46 mdz bdmurray: I /msg'd you an upstream contact who might be able to help 05:47 mdz bdmurray: does this give you enough to move forward with the bug? 05:47 bdmurray mdz: yes, I believe so 05:48 mdz bdmurray: thanks for bringing it up. I think reviewing outstanding serious bugs where we're stuck is a good idea for this meeting 05:48 mdz especially where you come upon something which is not maintained directly in Ubuntu 05:48 mdz that's the end of the discussion agenda 05:49 mdz only one outstanding action from the previous meeting: iwj to write up summary of experiences debugging udev 05:49 mdz iwj: ? 05:50 iwj I still haven't done that; I've been doing autopkgtest all this last week. 05:50 iwj ... which has gone well. 05:50 Riddell mdz: are you able to look over bug 84717 sometime and give your approval? requested by pitti Ubugtu Malone bug 84717 in update-manager "SRU: updates necessary for Kubuntu Upgrade Tool in Edgy" [Undecided,Needs info] https://launchpad.net/bugs/84717 05:51 mdz Riddell: ->release team 05:51 pitti Riddell: heh, I had the sentence prepared as well :) 05:51 Riddell mdz: ok 05:51 mdz Mithrandir: I need for you to write/update the documentation for freeze exceptions 05:51 Riddell Mithrandir: ^^ :) 05:51 mdz Mithrandir: it's at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess 05:52 pitti mdz: this would be an outright rejection for a normal SRU; if we do this, then I'd like an official commitment for us that we want to break SRU policy to achieve this goal 05:52 Mithrandir mdz: yes, it's partially blocked on getting a ubuntu-release mailing list. I'll document the rest of it and tell people to mail me for the time being. 05:52 mdz ACTION: Tollef to update FreezeExceptionProcess, particularly to send requests to the release team 05:53 heno can community members subscribe to that (planned) list? 05:53 mdz iwj: is it likely that the udev documentation will get done in the next week? iirc it was already carried over once 05:53 iwj mdz: Yes. 05:53 Mithrandir heno: that's the idea, yes. 05:53 iwj I didn't want to get too distracted this week since I was making good progress. 05:53 heno cool 05:53 Mithrandir heno: I see no point in keeping it secret at least. 05:54 mdz ok 05:54 mdz any other business? 05:54 cjwatson I think it should still be primarily a contact point for the release team rather than a discussion list, though 05:54 heno Mithrandir: it will be an announce-only list? === pitti hugs Riddell for getting apport integrated into KDE 05:54 cjwatson based on experience from debian-release, I recommend making that clear in the charter 05:54 mdz I agree with cjwatson 05:55 mdz developer discussion stays on -devel 05:55 mdz -release should reach only the release team for contact purposes 05:55 Mithrandir heno: what Colin says; it's a contact list and not a discussion list. 05:55 heno so perhaps it should be moderated even for subscribers 05:56 Mithrandir I'll probably end up mailing various reports to it as I write the bits to generate them 05:56 mdz heno: no one will be subscribed to it except the release team 05:56 Riddell pitti: I'm feeling the love. did you say you had updates from michael hoffman for apport-qt? 05:56 mdz it's just a mail expander 05:56 heno People might want to subscribe to be notified about the release process but not to get random contact mails 05:56 pitti Riddell: not new ones, they have all been merged into trunk 05:56 pitti Riddell: if anything still looks weird, please file bugs 05:56 mdz heno: only things intended for the release team only should be sent to that address 05:56 heno so perhaps we need a testing-announce list 05:56 mdz if it's of general interest, it should go elsewhere 05:57 mdz I've suggested that we need a list for automated checks 05:57 pitti Riddell: the behaviour under Gnome isn't very representative due to some bugs in the theme/gtk-qt bridge stuff 05:57 mdz we have several sources of automated checks alerady 05:57 Mithrandir should we take the list discussion after the meeting? I don't see it being useful for the whole team? 05:57 heno right 05:57 cjwatson agreed 05:57 mdz michael's upgrade tester, ian's package tester, the installation testing done in montreal 05:58 mdz they should all go to one place which anyone can monitor 05:58 mdz Mithrandir: ok 05:58 mdz last call for other business 05:58 mdz ok, adjourned 05:58 mdz thanks, all 05:58 seb128 thank you 05:58 dholbach thanks 05:58 mdz cjwatson: would you post the action items? 05:58 pitti thanks guys 05:58 asac thanks 05:58 BenC thanks! 05:58 bdmurray thanks 05:59 cjwatson mdz: yes 05:59 cjwatson only three this week 05:59 mvo thanks
MeetingLogs/UbuntuDev/20070222 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:36:13 by localhost)