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Dev Week -- Desktop Team overview -- seb128 -- Mon, Jul 12th, 2010

(03:00:47 PM) seb128: hey everybody
(03:00:49 PM) akgraner: Thank you apachelogger  - and welcom seb128
(03:00:57 PM) akgraner: seb128, if you are ready take it away!
(03:00:59 PM) seb128: hey akgraner ;-)
(03:01:05 PM) seb128: hey everybody else
(03:01:18 PM) seb128: so that session is the "Desktop Team overview" one
(03:01:24 PM) seb128: I'm Sebastien Bacher and I'm working on the Ubuntu desktop for 6 years now. I'm going to talk to you about the Ubuntu Desktop Team today
(03:01:33 PM) seb128: .
(03:01:44 PM) seb128: I'm not sure how technical the audience is today
(03:01:49 PM) seb128: I will start with an overview of the team
(03:01:56 PM) seb128: then speak about some of the work we do
(03:02:02 PM) seb128: then we can do questions and answers
(03:02:09 PM) seb128: .
(03:02:11 PM) seb128: So first who we are and we are doing?
(03:02:34 PM) seb128: So first who we are and we are doing, the Ubuntu Desktop Team is the team working on the desktop interfaces of the Ubuntu Desktop and the UNE edition
(03:02:40 PM) seb128: We basically:
(03:02:52 PM) seb128: - package the best softwares available and try to keep those uptodate
(03:03:04 PM) seb128: - triage desktop bugs reports
(03:03:16 PM) seb128: - try to fix as many issues as we can
(03:03:34 PM) seb128: - take decisions about what softwares are shipped by default
(03:03:52 PM) seb128: - try to improve the desktop experience as we can
(03:04:02 PM) seb128: .
(03:04:04 PM) seb128: Where to find the desktop team:
(03:04:08 PM) seb128: - #ubuntu-desktop on this IRC server
(03:04:16 PM) seb128: - ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com, https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop/
(03:04:33 PM) seb128: - launchpad (desktop-bugs and ubuntu-desktop teams)
(03:04:44 PM) seb128:  
(03:05:08 PM) seb128: So let's speak first about the packages we work on and how we update those
(03:05:24 PM) seb128: you can get a rough idea of the default set of things we work on there
(03:05:27 PM) seb128: - http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/versions.html
(03:05:59 PM) seb128: it basically lists packages the team is interested in with the current upstream and ubuntu versions
(03:06:20 PM) seb128: as you can set there are different set of color there
(03:06:25 PM) seb128: green is what is uptodate
(03:06:44 PM) seb128: everything is outdated either compared to debian or to upstream
(03:06:56 PM) seb128: ups
(03:07:00 PM) seb128: "everythin else"
(03:07:14 PM) seb128: so let's speak a bit about how we update those
(03:07:23 PM) seb128: the work is usually discussed on #ubuntu-desktop
(03:08:01 PM) seb128: but if you want to claim you are working on a desktop update you can also use the "Open Bug" column on http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/versions.html
(03:08:14 PM) seb128: our packages are usually stored in bzr
(03:08:53 PM) seb128: we do store only the debian directory so far because having the source there is usually quite slower and we didn't find real benefit since with the current technologies we still have to maintain patches in the debian dir
(03:09:14 PM) seb128: so the usual way to update those is to checkout the source
(03:09:22 PM) seb128: is lp:~ubuntu-desktop/gconf-editor/ubuntu
(03:09:33 PM) seb128: is -> ie
(03:09:55 PM) seb128: you get a debian directory while doing that
(03:10:12 PM) seb128: it's the base to do an update
(03:10:33 PM) seb128: so you can get it doing "bzr checkout lp:~ubuntu-desktop/gconf-editor/ubuntu"
(03:11:15 PM) seb128: then you can update the change to the current version doing "dch -v upstream_version-revision"
(03:12:02 PM) seb128: where "upstream_version" is the version from the upstream source and "revision" the ubuntu revision (typically -0ubuntu1 for an update)
(03:12:17 PM) seb128: the current version of gconf-editor is 2.30.0-2ubuntu1
(03:12:34 PM) seb128: so it means you would do "dch -v 2.30.1-0ubuntu1" for the next update
(03:12:55 PM) seb128: then run "bzr bd"
(03:13:21 PM) seb128: that will download the new tarball source for you and start a build
(03:13:22 PM) jorge is now known as jcastro
(03:13:50 PM) seb128: it's likely that some changes will not apply or that you will need to update build-depends
(03:14:25 PM) seb128: in which case you need to do the required changes in the debian directory
(03:14:41 PM) seb128: that should be enough to get you quickly started on trying to build something and updating versions
(03:15:02 PM) seb128: I don't want to start now on patch system and packaging details, you will have other sessions about that this week and there is wiki documentations
(03:15:09 PM) seb128: but let me know if you have extra questions later on
(03:15:22 PM) seb128: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bzr has details on the current team workflow
(03:15:25 PM) seb128:  
(03:15:31 PM) seb128: out of updates we do work on desktop bugs
(03:15:49 PM) seb128: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+packagebugs
(03:15:59 PM) seb128: this url has the lists of components the desktop-bugs is watching
(03:16:11 PM) seb128: as you can see it's quite a lot
(03:16:38 PM) seb128: if you want to help on some of those feel free to talk to us on #ubuntu-desktop or to ping pedro_ from the bugsquad
(03:16:58 PM) seb128: we welcome any help to triage those and especially to raise the issues that should be adressed in priority during the cycle
(03:17:21 PM) seb128: since the team working on solving those issues has limited manpower and can't work on everything it's important to prioritize issues
(03:17:24 PM) seb128:  
(03:17:34 PM) seb128: we also do take decisions about softwares selections
(03:18:10 PM) seb128: those discussions are usually made on our list, or IRC channel and decisions taken at UDS
(03:18:15 PM) seb128: the lists is https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-desktop/
(03:18:30 PM) seb128: if you have any suggestions for the desktop or UNE feel free to come discuss with us
(03:19:03 PM) seb128: we do discuss other changes, design decisions, etc on those lists
(03:19:30 PM) seb128: so that was a sort of overview of what the team is doing right now
(03:20:13 PM) seb128: there is lot to cover in packaging and other areas but I don't think one hour writting there would be enough and would probably not be that useful
(03:20:27 PM) seb128: so let's do questions and answers now if something has any questions
(03:21:01 PM) seb128: I can continue describing some of the details of our work later one if we run out of questions
(03:21:12 PM) seb128: if you have questions use #ubuntu-classroom-chat
(03:21:18 PM) seb128: <tech2077> QUESTION: with Gnome-shell, when should be expect a stable version, 10.10 ro 11.04
(03:21:28 PM) seb128: that's an excellent questions
(03:21:34 PM) seb128: so GNOME3 is quite exciting
(03:21:39 PM) seb128: but it's lot of work at the same time
(03:22:01 PM) seb128: they do plan to have GNOME3 ready around the same time we will roll 10.10
(03:22:14 PM) seb128: but it's adding lot of changes:
(03:22:19 PM) seb128: gsettings (dconf)
(03:22:21 PM) seb128: gtk3
(03:22:25 PM) seb128: gnome-shell
(03:22:36 PM) seb128: new gobject introspection
(03:22:50 PM) seb128: so lot of technologies changes, lots of softwares to update
(03:23:20 PM) seb128: we do believe their schedule is really challenging and while it's exciting we don't have the ressources to follow on everything this cycle
(03:23:51 PM) seb128: we do plan to work as well as we can but it's going to take 2 cycles
(03:24:04 PM) seb128: so we do plan to have the platform ready this cycle
(03:24:08 PM) seb128: ie gtk3 available for 10.10
(03:24:16 PM) seb128: the new introspection stack, dconf
(03:24:26 PM) seb128: but gtk3 will not be on the CD this cycle
(03:24:37 PM) seb128: it's going to be challenging to have 2 gtk stacks on the CD
(03:24:46 PM) seb128: gnome-shell will be in universe for 10.10
(03:25:06 PM) seb128: then next cycle we will try to move to GNOME3
(03:25:10 PM) seb128:  
(03:25:19 PM) seb128: <Krysis> QUESTION: Will Unity replace the Gnome Shell vision?
(03:25:21 PM) seb128: no
(03:25:27 PM) seb128: unity has been made for small screens
(03:25:36 PM) seb128: where gnome-shell is for desktop environments
(03:25:43 PM) seb128: we do believe those have different needs
(03:25:50 PM) seb128: so unity is what UNE will be using
(03:25:58 PM) seb128: where the desktop will keep using GNOME
(03:26:16 PM) seb128:  
(03:26:16 PM) seb128: <Guest71922> QUESTION: Since Gnome-shell is being worked on to include Ubuntu's panel design, will we see Compiz support in gnome-shell at all? (I realize gnome-shell wont be default in 10.04)
(03:26:17 PM) seb128:  
(03:26:29 PM) seb128: right it won't since that version is out for a bit now ;-)
(03:27:08 PM) seb128: I doubt compiz will be used in gnome-shell though since they have mutter used as wm there
(03:27:28 PM) seb128: you should talk to the gnome-shell guys if you think they should support compiz though
(03:27:29 PM) seb128:  
(03:27:36 PM) seb128: <penguin42> QUESTION: Is there an effort to ensure that VMs/machines without fast 3D cards will still get good support in the days of gnome-shell etc?
(03:27:45 PM) seb128: well
(03:28:09 PM) seb128: gnome-shell said from the start they would not impose limits for their softwares just to support "old configurations"
(03:28:17 PM) seb128: so gnome-shell will not support those no
(03:28:38 PM) seb128: the current desktop will still be around and we will keep a fallback solution available at runtime for those configurations
(03:28:58 PM) seb128: it will likely keep being similar to the current desktop
(03:29:06 PM) seb128: I doubt much work will go into that though
(03:29:08 PM) seb128:  
(03:29:26 PM) seb128: <Krysis> QUESTION: Since alot of users enjoy Compiz to a certain extent, seeing it lifted from Ubuntu seems a bit drastic, if this happens do you think a new ubuntu distro will be made to include the older gnome?
(03:29:43 PM) seb128: who said it would be lifted?
(03:29:47 PM) seb128: it will still be available
(03:30:08 PM) seb128: not sure what you are concerned about but mutter do similar effects
(03:30:21 PM) seb128: so gnome-shell or unity will have nice effects as well
(03:30:47 PM) seb128: <Guest71922> Question: Will we see Compiz like compositing via mutter, at least some point in time?
(03:30:53 PM) seb128: similar question
(03:31:08 PM) seb128: not sure you will see as many effects or crazy things in those
(03:31:20 PM) seb128: but the default compiz configuration is quite limited in effects it uses
(03:31:38 PM) seb128: the new desktop will likely keep a limited "bling" as well
(03:31:49 PM) seb128: the desktop should be nice to use
(03:31:59 PM) seb128: not acting as a crazy demo box ;-)
(03:32:10 PM) seb128: but those who like compiz will still be able to install it
(03:32:50 PM) seb128: <Krysis> seb128: so it'll be compatible with gnome-shell? I meant that if gnome-shell becomes default, instead of re-installing the older gnome to work with compiz, will there be a distro that maintains that gnome isntead of moving to gnome-shell.
(03:33:06 PM) seb128:  
(03:33:33 PM) seb128: not sure it will be a distro, but nothing stop you to install compiz and use it, it's on package to install
(03:33:42 PM) seb128: on -> one
(03:33:54 PM) seb128: doesn't seems to warrant doing another distribution
(03:34:04 PM) seb128: it will rather be an effect level in the appearance capplet
(03:34:13 PM) seb128:  
(03:34:14 PM) seb128: <mickstephenson52> QUESTION: Since unity uses mutter does that mean that unity and compiz won't work together either
(03:34:38 PM) seb128: right
(03:35:01 PM) seb128: you can use compiz and unity
(03:35:05 PM) seb128: some people have been doing it
(03:35:19 PM) seb128: but you will lack some of the effects and integration the unity team work on
(03:35:27 PM) seb128: you can still use the unity bar and launcher though
(03:35:44 PM) seb128: but if you prefer doing desktop manager yourself using compiz nothing stops you
(03:36:05 PM) seb128:  
(03:36:09 PM) seb128: other questions?
(03:36:28 PM) seb128: <Guest71922> QUESTION: ok, giving you a break from Compiz, what can you tell us about the windicators, and the new decoraters? Suggestion if I may, I love the new theme but if I could adjust the window border/header to fit a darker theme that would be awesome
(03:36:33 PM) seb128: thanks ;-)
(03:37:01 PM) seb128: we do plan to keep working on gtk changes for csd
(03:37:05 PM) seb128: client side decoration
(03:37:21 PM) seb128: it means it will gtk drawing its decorations directly
(03:37:24 PM) seb128: rather than compiz
(03:37:49 PM) seb128: but that's quite some work to do and we will need to think about non gtk softwares
(03:38:01 PM) seb128: so while this work continue it will not likely go in 10.10
(03:38:13 PM) seb128: the changes are often discussed on the ayatana list though
(03:38:27 PM) seb128: so feel free to join them to discuss it with them
(03:38:28 PM) seb128:  
(03:38:37 PM) seb128: <Ram_Yash> <question>how do you select different software to added to desktop?
(03:38:56 PM) seb128: we try to listen to our users requests
(03:39:15 PM) seb128: there were some requests for a video editor for a while so we got pitivi in lucid
(03:39:29 PM) seb128: we try to see what nice softwares are out there and what users like
(03:39:43 PM) seb128: if you have any suggestion feel free to come discuss those with us
(03:39:56 PM) seb128: chromium has lot of users so we consider it for UNE this cycle
(03:40:10 PM) seb128: it's also faster and might fit better on the devices UNE target
(03:40:35 PM) seb128: we are consider shotwell as well for photo management since it's a very nice software
(03:40:49 PM) seb128:  
(03:40:51 PM) seb128: <joshas___> QUESTION: What happened to netbook-launcher-efl? Why isn't it used in UNE?
(03:41:38 PM) seb128: not sure if the question is "why is it not used by default in UNE"?
(03:42:00 PM) seb128: while it's nice efl is not a technologies used a lot in Ubuntu or maintained
(03:42:07 PM) seb128: it also has limitations
(03:42:21 PM) seb128: we do believe unity to be a better experience
(03:42:39 PM) seb128: it's based on quite some design work, modern technologies and actively being worked
(03:42:51 PM) seb128: users feedback has been welcoming it so far
(03:43:06 PM) seb128: so let's see how it goes
(03:43:28 PM) seb128:  
(03:43:28 PM) seb128: <Krysis> QUESTION: as far as functionality Pitivi is alot premature in comparison with software such as OpenShot, was Openshot a consideration?
(03:44:15 PM) seb128: I've to admit I don't know openshot
(03:44:41 PM) seb128: nobody came with a suggestion to use it previous cycle but pitivi has quite some user tractions
(03:44:51 PM) seb128: if you think we should consider openshot feel free to email the mailing list
(03:44:57 PM) seb128: or come discuss on the IRC channel
(03:45:07 PM) seb128:  
(03:45:12 PM) seb128: <Guest71922> QUESTION: How will the rootless xserver mean for performance, standard and with GPU card, or is that a different deartment.
(03:45:20 PM) seb128: sorry but I don't know about performances impact
(03:45:35 PM) seb128: you are welcome to ask on #ubuntu-x though
(03:45:49 PM) seb128: I would assume it should not have one to be consider as a valid alternative to use
(03:46:09 PM) seb128:  
(03:46:10 PM) seb128: <Ram_Yash> QUESTION: Are there any plans to support HDMI Videos and Desktop screen splitters?
(03:46:25 PM) seb128: not that I know about but another question that would be rather for #ubuntu-x
(03:46:35 PM) seb128: the ubuntu xorg team has limited manpower though
(03:46:47 PM) seb128: so I don't think there is any effort coming from ubuntu itself on that topic
(03:46:48 PM) seb128:  
(03:47:00 PM) seb128: <Guest71922> QUESTION: What's the deal concerning BTRFS and possibly BURG?
(03:47:09 PM) seb128: I don't know about burg
(03:47:19 PM) seb128: but the foundation team is considering btfs for 10.10
(03:47:23 PM) seb128: btrfs
(03:47:30 PM) seb128: not really a desktop question though
(03:47:45 PM) seb128: there is a blueprint about it if you are interested
(03:48:00 PM) seb128:  
(03:48:01 PM) seb128: <inquata> QUESTION: What are the plans for the Menu Bar? This is – usability-wise – one of the most crucial parts of the desktop. Currently, it seems clunky and crowded.
(03:48:11 PM) seb128: inquata, hum,  what menu bar?
(03:48:27 PM) seb128: if you mean the application etc menus?
(03:48:39 PM) seb128: it's neither in gnome-shell or unity
(03:48:52 PM) seb128: they both have different way to interact with softwares
(03:49:21 PM) seb128: there is no effort to work on improving the menus that I know about though
(03:49:39 PM) seb128: unity has a "place" view to browse application
(03:50:02 PM) seb128: ie a grid with filters you can use
(03:50:33 PM) seb128: hum, ok ;-)
(03:50:46 PM) seb128: <inquata> seb128: Ok, who do I need to talk to if I’m interested in improving the Menu Bar for the standard desktop?
(03:50:55 PM) seb128: the ubuntu-desktop mailing list
(03:51:08 PM) seb128:  
(03:51:08 PM) seb128: <Ram_Yash> QUESTION: Why do minimize/maximize, screen size increase/dec, close button are changed for all the browser different normal window format? is that successful adoption?
(03:51:25 PM) seb128: I'm not sure to understand the question
(03:51:39 PM) seb128: you mean why the lucid theme changes the side and order of buttons?
(03:51:41 PM) seb128: design choice
(03:52:06 PM) seb128: users get used to it after some days it seems
(03:52:28 PM) seb128: it's sort of nice and allow extra changes that will come like windicators
(03:52:43 PM) seb128:  
(03:52:44 PM) seb128: <mickstephenson52> QUESTION: IMO one of the biggest papercuts the gnoem desktop in general has is that the clipboard doesnt function correctly with non gnome applications, if you install glipper you can fix this but atm it is broken by default. Will this problem ever be resolved?
(03:52:57 PM) seb128:  
(03:53:01 PM) seb128: excellent question
(03:53:05 PM) seb128: to be honest I don't know
(03:53:12 PM) seb128: that's not a topic we focussed on until now
(03:53:20 PM) seb128: I think there is a gsoc project about it
(03:53:27 PM) seb128: it = clipboard
(03:53:35 PM) seb128: but that's probably something we should try to fix
(03:53:46 PM) seb128: you should come with suggestions or requests for comments on the list
(03:53:53 PM) seb128: that would maybe motive some people to get that done
(03:54:30 PM) seb128:  
(03:54:32 PM) seb128: <Guest71922> QUESTION: I know the min/max/close is on the left for a reason now so I want be picky on that but I'm worried about future conflicts because when I change to another theme, they go back to the right.
(03:54:55 PM) seb128: let's see how it goes with those theme, they will maybe just not have windicators or improvements on
(03:55:11 PM) seb128: but there is no reason the side of theme should be an issue
(03:55:17 PM) seb128: it's a gconf key, you can change it for any theme
(03:55:24 PM) seb128: so we could force it for other themes as well
(03:55:25 PM) seb128:  
(03:55:45 PM) seb128: <mickstephenson52> seb128: My suggestion would be for zeitgeist to index your clipboard histroy and for gnome to use that, and allow you to choose what is currently in your clipboard using an indicator
(03:56:06 PM) seb128: nice suggestion, somebody should raise it on the ayatana list for comments
(03:56:19 PM) seb128:  
(03:56:20 PM) seb128: <pratik_narain> <question>so are the windicators a theme specific feature or generic ubuntu desktop feature
(03:56:30 PM) seb128: they will not be theme specific no
(03:56:33 PM) seb128:  
(03:56:49 PM) seb128: ok, we have a few minutes for remaining questions
(03:56:57 PM) seb128: <Ram_Yash> QUESTION:ANy possiblities of adapting APPLE themes?
(03:57:03 PM) seb128: dunno about that one
(03:57:14 PM) seb128: there is no reason you could make themes similar to the apple ones
(03:57:55 PM) seb128:  
(03:57:59 PM) seb128: ok, no other question?
(03:58:10 PM) seb128: thanks everybody then!
(03:58:43 PM) seb128: hum
(03:58:44 PM) seb128: <Guest71922> Question: We can turn off internet to any given app with the on/offline windicator now right?
(03:58:55 PM) seb128: there is no windicator right now
(03:59:08 PM) seb128: but seems something they could be doing
(03:59:14 PM) seb128: ok
(03:59:16 PM) seb128: that's it
(03:59:19 PM) seb128: thanks everybody
(03:59:28 PM) seb128: it's time for the next session
(03:59:31 PM) akgraner: Thanks seb128! Great Session!