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Ubuntu Open Week - Kubuntu - Richard Johnson - Tue, Oct 23, 2007

see also Thursday session.

21:08 -!- popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Current session:  Kubuntu - Richard Johnson
21:08 < Rudd-X> long live kubuntu!
21:08 -!- mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o popey] by popey
21:09 < nixternal> Rudd-X: same here, Chicago!!!
21:09 < dorto> it's 2:31AM here :(
21:09 < FADON> it already started?
21:09 < ajmitch> oh dear :)
21:09 < nixternal> can someone k/b ajmitch please, he is a troll
21:09 < Rudd-X> Guayaquil! represent!
21:09 < Rudd-X> :-)
21:09 < nixternal> kthxbye! :)
21:09 < ajmitch> nixternal: can do
21:09 < nixternal> lol
21:10 < FADON> 21:02 UTC
21:10 < nixternal> ok, let me start this out with a quick intro
21:10 < nixternal> Name: Rich Johnson, 33, Chicago, IL - Kubuntu, KDE, and Debian geek, Been with the Kubuntu project for about 2 years now, been using Linux since the Navy in 1994
21:11 < nixternal> ummm, I do dev, motu, and doc work mostly, and the chicago loco team
21:11 < nixternal> OK, that is out of the way
21:11 < nixternal> I want to take a quick poll
21:11 < nixternal> Who is here for the dev type stuff? Who is here for just the end user KDE rocks my socks stuff?
21:12 < dorto> ubunturos: yeah, India. You?
21:12 < Rudd-X> I'm here for both
21:12 < nixternal> groovy
21:12 < Daisuke_Ido> a little of column a, a little of column b
21:12 < Rudd-X> I want juicy dev porn
21:12 < Riddell> both!
21:12 < lieter> nixternal, last one
21:12 < Otenkiya> Mostly rocks my sox, a little dev.
21:12 < robc4> end user
21:12 < FADON> just like a user
21:12 < awkorama_> i'm here for very ulikely convincement to switch to kde
21:12 < nixternal> thanks Riddell :)
21:12 < Sanne> both
21:12 < ttread> both
21:12 < Rudd-X> sup jonathan
21:12 < peppych> to learn more so I would say both
21:12 < PwrKroll> both!
21:12 < BonesolTeraDyne> a bit of both
21:12 < ajmitch> the former
21:13 < moriancumer> user
21:13 < nixternal> alrighty, lets kick off with some dev talk....I am sure you all followed the 7.10 release closely
21:13 < nixternal> So as most of you know we added Strigi (hold down the boos), and we incorporated Dolphin (not D3lphin) as the default file manager
21:14 < nixternal> We were the first distro to release KDE 3.5.8, and actually the only one still to day, with a major release
21:14 < Riddell> ? it was D3lphin
21:14 < nixternal> well it is dolphin now, someone woke up and realised you don't spell it with a 3 :)
21:15 < Riddell> aye, we patched the name
21:15 < nixternal> alrighty, the past is done, lets talk about Hardy and what we are looking at for the next 6 months of development
21:16 < nixternal> since Hardy is going to be an LTS release, our main goal is definitely going to be stability
21:16 < nixternal> there are a lot of bugs with Kubuntu right now, and only a handful of developers...so if there is one thing you take out of this entire talk, it should be...We need you! There is plenty of work, not only for developers, but for people who just installed Linux today, or are going to install it tomorrow
21:17 < nixternal> let me retract that "lot of bugs with kubuntu"
21:17 < nixternal> there are a lot of K related bugs
21:18 < nixternal> which of course when we absorb the packages, Kubuntu absorbs the issues as well...granted the vast majority are minor and usually easy to work around, but we have some bugs that we are definitely interested in getting them worked out with Hardy
21:18 < nixternal> as for our plans, next weekend in Boston, most of our ideas will be on the firing line, or the drawing board in Boston at the Ubuntu Developer Summit
21:19 < nixternal> so as it stands, nothing is yet set in stone....so hopefully we will be able to get some user input this following week of likes and dislikes...because we create Kubuntu for you more so than we do for us
21:19 < nixternal> KDE 4
21:19 < nixternal> how many ofyou just woke back up?
21:19  * Rudd-X did
21:19  * Otenkiya raises her hand
21:20 < xjdriver69> me
21:20  * DShepherd yawns
21:20 < nixternal> I love how I can just throw that out and people perk right up like I dropped something in their drink
21:20  * daSkreech raises head
21:20  * BonesolTeraDyne ditches #kubuntu to hear this
21:20 < nixternal> hahaha
21:20 < Daisuke_Ido> i think i'm the only one not impressed so far :)
21:20  * begert__ drinks drink
21:20 < Daisuke_Ido> (with kde4, not nixternal :)
21:20 < nixternal> Riddell: you can throw in a little with this one as well, since you are the boss, but I would like to toss out my idea for Hardy, and I am sure, well I know we have talked about it
21:21 < nixternal> How about a Live CD with KDE 4 by default?
21:21 < Riddell> ooh, yes please
21:21  * daSkreech fires up his burner
21:21 < DShepherd> nixternal, that's usable? sure
21:21 < nixternal> Seeing as we will not release the LTS with KDE 4, but instead keep with the more stable KDE 3.5 branch
21:21 < Riddell> lets do that on the day of 4.0 release
21:22 < Rudd-X> I think that would be a great idea *if* the packages in the KDE4 livecd are the same packages in a publicly available tentative repo
21:22 < nixternal> Rudd-X: they would be
21:22 < Rudd-X> Riddell: that would be a major PR coup
21:22 < nixternal> we only use the Ubuntu repos, so what would be on said CD, would be available for everyone no matter what *buntu they installed
21:22 < daSkreech> Rudd-X: do you mean if they track the KDE4 repos?
21:23 < Rudd-X> I basically mean what nixternal just confirmed.  that we as users can use it as an everyday desktop choice, not just on livecds.
21:23 < nixternal> If I can push Riddell a little more, I would like to work on getting the Live CD started prior to the 4.0 release, maybe an RC release so we can get people to start filing bugs on it
21:23 < stdin> please keep the chat in -chat :)
21:24 < Riddell> how usable KDE 4 is of course depends on the KDE developers
21:24 < Riddell> it's a first rate platform which will last for years
21:24 < nixternal> so with that said, we will bring you KDE 4, on a Live CD, that you can install and run as your main system if you want to, but don't expect 5 years of support on it :)
21:24 < Riddell> 4.0 however won't be the most stable of desktops
21:24 < nixternal> hehe
21:25 < nixternal> that is true
21:25 < Daisuke_Ido> so...  am 8.04 LTS and an 8.04 regular release, depending on DE?
21:25 < nixternal> 4.1 will be the release that gets KDE 4 up to the specifications that the amazing KDE developers came up with
21:25 < nixternal> 8.04 LTS and lets say and 8.04 gift for the hollidays release?
21:25 < nixternal> s/and/an
21:26 < nixternal> OK, forget the spelling, because I messed up holidays as well
21:27 < Riddell> the 4.0 CDs will be an updated 7.10
21:27 < nixternal> That is going to be the really big bit of dev news really for Hardy...but I really want you to know, that if you are an aspiring developer, I mean if you just looked at a #include today, or an import pyqt4 today, we can definitely use your help, and teach you as we go
21:27 < nixternal> Riddell: OK, that is how we are going to do it then?
21:27 < Riddell> yep
21:28 < Riddell> dev news for hardy..
21:28 < nixternal> ya, that makes more sense, seeing that at the end of December, we won't even be at the halfway point with 8.04...good call
21:28 < Riddell> we hope to catch up more with bits we miss compared to Ubuntu
21:28 < Riddell> this will be the main spec for UDS https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyCatchup
21:29 < Riddell> current notes at the bottom
21:29 < nixternal> and you beat me to it :)
21:29 < nixternal> Riddell: mark Rudd-X down as a Python guy looking for work!
21:29 < Riddell> but we lack in printing, compiz, codec install (of course we had that first mind), printing support and a couple other areas
21:30 < Riddell> we can always use some of them
21:30 < nixternal> always
21:31 < nixternal> whoever is controlling questions, if there are dev questions, throw them in right nwo before we continue..is that cool?
21:31 < nixternal> nice lag
21:33 < nixternal> daSkreech: do me a fave, copy/paste the questions from chat into here?
21:33 < daSkreech> Sure
21:33 < nixternal> I am w/o mouse right now
21:33 < FADON> XD
21:33 < Rudd-X> QUESTION: Assuming we are going to KDE4 which has compositing already. Does it make sense to integrate compiz now?
21:33 < nixternal> and that is why I love KDE...no mouse, yet I can still do almost all of what I need
21:34 < nixternal> Rudd-X: for 3.5 branch of KDE, yes it does make sense, since there will still be some 3.5 users, they want their eye candy as well
21:34 < nixternal> stdin: bring the questions in here :) I can't c/p right now :)
21:34 < Rudd-X> <daSkreech> QUESTION: Are we allowed to know how many Businesses are requesting Kubuntu vs Ubuntu? And if they require changes what those changes are?
21:34 < stdin> nixternal: gotya
21:35 < nixternal> Riddell: ^^ that would be a Canonical question
21:35 < Riddell> Rudd-X: short answer is I've no idea, I don't work in support or bizdev
21:35 < nixternal> I can at least say there has been a few major roll outs of Kubuntu... the Canary Islands have their implementation as well as the French Parliament
21:36 < Riddell> longer answer is we have some big rollouts in Georgia and Canary Islands and French Parliament and various others
21:36 < nixternal> Georgia, the country, as well
21:36 < ubunturos> <BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: When will we get KOffice installed by default instead of OpenOffice?
21:36 < nixternal> ya
21:36 < nixternal> when KOffice is a tad bit more usuable for new users would be my answer
21:36 < Riddell> I don't get large amounts of commercial requests, a printer company asked me to review their PPD files for some reason
21:37 < nixternal> I use and prefer KOffice over OOo, but I have tested a lot of new users with it, and they didn't respond as well
21:37 < ubunturos> QUESTION:  Regarding KDE and its bugs... Any idea if KDE 4 is going to be a long-lived, stable platform that will have the chance to be ironed out?
21:37 < Riddell> most support is for server anyway of course
21:37 < nixternal> ubunturos: most definitely
21:37 < ubunturos> <BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: When will we get some games installed by default? At least we could include KMines.
21:37 < nixternal> I think when KDE 4 rolls out, you will see more free software developers jump on and help with the future development
21:38 < Rudd-X> <Rudd-O> QUESTION: Any special attention towards automating and easing enterprisey needs such as lockdown (kiosk) and profile predefinition tools (sabayon)?
21:38 < nixternal> holy smokes, I think that is a first I have seen the "games by default" question
21:38 < nixternal> Riddell: are there any plans for Games by default?
21:38 < Riddell> we have had parts of KOffice by default, Krita and Kexi, but those are first in line to be pushed off when we need more CD space
21:38 < Riddell> mm, games I'm unsure about
21:38 < Riddell> it comes down to do we want another language on the CD or do we want kmines
21:38 < Riddell> and I've always gone for more languages
21:38 < Riddell> I'm willing to be persuaded of course
21:39 < stdin> <Rob125> QUESTION: nixternal, can you go into a little more depth about aspiring developers and our use? If we're looking to contribute, what's the best possible way we can get involved or educate ourselves toward what's needed for Kubuntu?
21:39 < nixternal> there you heard it, persuade him
21:39 < Riddell> some of the KDE 4 games are beautifully slick
21:39 < Rudd-X> I think you would need to assess whether kmines will give you that extra delta X users compared to a new language
21:39 < nixternal> Rob125: one sec, and I will get that one, let me get Rudd's really quick about kiosks
21:40 < Riddell> Rudd-X: Gutsy was the first release to have Kiosk in main.  unfortunately the tool is not well supported upstream and there's no KDE 4 version in the works (it would be a good target for someone wanting to get into KDE development)
21:40 < nixternal> We have the OEM install so far, and I do know there is a Kiosk mode available for Kubuntu, only because our local courthouse uses Kubuntu and Ubuntu in Kiosk mode, and my church uses it as well
21:41 < Riddell> nixternal: they do?  excellent!
21:41 < nixternal> For Aspiring Devs:  There are many uses and of course each depends on your experience
21:41 < nixternal> Riddell: ya, I heard the startup sounds during jury duty last year
21:41 < nixternal> If you are fluent in Python or C++, then of course if you look at the notes that are in the Spec, you can see we will have plenty for one to do
21:42 < nixternal> but it doesn't stop there whatsoever
21:42 < nixternal> If you are just learning a language, like I am with Python, we can still use you and actually teach you along the way...Kubuntu has some of the greatest Devs I have had the priviledge of working with and are always helping new developers
21:43 < nixternal> you can start out with some bug triage to get familiar with the processes we endure
21:43 < nixternal> you can apply patches
21:43 < nixternal> you can help write full-fledged applications, like mhb did with Gdebi in Gutsy
21:43 < nixternal> or front-ends to be more precise
21:43 < Riddell> he wrote restricted manager too, go him!
21:43 < nixternal> packaging is another thing not only Kubuntu needs, but Ubuntu in general
21:44 < nixternal> oh ya, k-r-m was mhb as well...he would be the superdev of Gutsy w/o a doubt
21:44 < Riddell> nixternal: pst, merges!
21:44 < nixternal> that goes with the packaging of course...we have a lot of "K" packages that we need to merge from Debian
21:45 < nixternal> as it stands, there are probably less than 10 Kubuntu packagers to help maintain thousands of packages
21:45 < Riddell> http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html loads of packages!
21:45 < nixternal> of course we get a little help from the Ubuntu developers when they get some time, but even then, we are still under 100
21:45 < nixternal> I just merged bitlbee for Hardy, so that will be one less on that list :)
21:45 < Riddell> all needing merged with Debian
21:45 < stdin> <lieter> QUESTION: is it possible to attract also 'regular' ubuntu devs to the kubuntu project for a larger devbase? Or do you really need 'fresh blood'?
21:46 < nixternal> Both...I think fresh blood brings fresh ideas
21:46 < nixternal> I even enjoy the younger generation of developers, because they have a nack for stuff that me being an old time doesn't see
21:47 < ubunturos> <daSkreech> QUESTION: Are you planning on upping the number of Developers for Kbuntu?
21:47 < nixternal> ie. compiz and such...not a fan of it, but there are definitely millions who are
21:47 < nixternal> I finally left a black/green terminal after more than 10 years :)
21:48 < nixternal> I wonder if he meant Paid Developers or Volunteer Developers
21:48 < Rudd-X> I think he meant both
21:48 < nixternal> well we always plan on upping volunteer developers, and I know a lot of us try to recruit new developers
21:48 < nixternal> the paid devs is on Mr. Kubuntu himself to answer
21:49 < nixternal> see, Kubuntu has a small developer community...so as a developer, you don't have to worry about getting lost in the mix
21:49 < nixternal> we know our devs are volunteers and we try not to stress them, we let them do as they wish and if they can't do it and can pass it on, we totally celebrate that
21:49 < Riddell> if someone wants to sponsor more developers that would be great, I don't believe Canonical has any plans to do so currently
21:50 < ubunturos> <frank23> QUESTION: Does kubuntu always aim for feature-parity with ubuntu? Right now, kaffeine doesn't ask to install video codecs when you try to play an unsupported video like totem does in ubuntu. Does kubuntu have the feature where you plug in a printer and its automagically setup ?
21:50 < nixternal> we are a very fun community behind the scenes loaded with some very talented people, and some of the greatest personalities you could imagine
21:50 < nixternal> frank23: that is what our plans are for Hardy
21:50 < FADON> ubuntu still being ubuntu, kubuntu has his own way
21:51 < nixternal> as a matter of fact, if you read https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyCatchup you will see everything you just asked
21:51 < stdin> <begert__> QUESTION: how does being a KDE developer differ than being a Kubuntu developer?
21:51 < nixternal> well with Kubuntu you are concentrating more so on the release, but you are keeping upstream, KDE in this instance in the back of your mind
21:51 < nixternal> and being a Kubuntu developer, will more than likely lead you to becoming a KDE developer
21:51 < nixternal> it did for me at least
21:52 < nixternal> even though I am just a mouse compared to the giants
21:52 < nixternal> KDE devs are developing for KDE and KDE only, all application type work
21:52 < stdin> <Rudd-O> QUESTION: what is the singgle biggest factor (repeating hurdle, consuming task) that would multiply our packaging forces, to reuse Debian efforts?
21:53 < nixternal> Kubuntu devs are taking what the KDE devs do, and tweak it a bit, and make sure it gets to the user in the best possible condition
21:53 < nixternal> we do reuse debian efforts, and debian reuses ours
21:53 < nixternal> the single biggest factor though, would be the lack of people getting into development
21:54 < nixternal> remember that Ubuntu attracts a lot of new users who aren't familiar with the free software world
21:54 < nixternal> so we need to let them know it is safe, it is fun, and you will learn
21:54 < nixternal> Juan (Jucato) is a perfect example of that
21:54 < nixternal> in less than 2 years he is one of Kubuntu's greatest assetts
21:55 < nixternal> and when I say 2 years, I mean he installed Linux for the first time just 2 years ago
21:55 < nixternal> no prior dev expiernce at all
21:55 < ubunturos> <Rudd-O> QUESTION: Any special attention towards automating and easing enterprisey needs such as lockdown and profile predefinition tools?
21:55 < nixternal> keeping people interested, preventing them from burning out, are also some steep hurdles
21:55 < nixternal> OEM
21:56 < Riddell> kiosktool is in main as I say, but it needs attetion upstream
21:56 < nixternal> I haven't heard much from KDE about those, but there are plenty of utilities that you ask about available for Linux, and I can attest that they work fine with KDE
21:56 < nixternal> we have to use them at the university, so I know
21:57 < nixternal> Riddell: I think Rudd-X wants to help develop that, he does ask about it quite a bit ;)
21:57 < Rudd-X> I asked only once :-)
21:57 < nixternal> man, there are some good questions in the queue
21:57 < Rudd-X> I'm just reporting a bug, as a matter of fact
21:57 < ubunturos> <Daisuke_Ido> QUESTION: Would a Western/Eastern edition of (k)ubuntu be feasible?  english on all, split the languages, and you have the ability to have more software by default?
21:58  * Riddell doesn't understand that question
21:58 < Daisuke_Ido> we hashed it out in the other channel, disregard
21:58 < ajmitch> I think it's producing 2 CDs & splitting langpacks amongst them
21:58 < nixternal> it is feasible, but would require numerous seeds in order to accomplish such a task
21:59 < Riddell> there are geographic derivatives of Kubuntu such as ArabicLinux, but Kubuntu itself should be as general as possible
21:59 < ubunturos> <FayZee> QUESTION: I love KDE and I love lot's of programs. That's one of the reasons I go for Knoppix when I want to run live. Has anyone considered making a rich Kubuntu for a large capacity memory stick at a premium price?
21:59 < nixternal> you could always do what some other countries do, and that is create your own Kubuntu with exactly that...I have been impressed seeing the different countries doing that
22:00 < nixternal> Kubuntu will always be free!
22:00 < nixternal> free in every sense
22:00 < nixternal> I have seen "Ubuntu" sticks floating around, so I am sure a Kubuntu stick wouldn't be to difficult
22:00 < nixternal> and honestly, I would love to have one in my pocket...much easier than carrying around a CD :)
22:00 < Riddell> Canonical isn't really into selling software, but there's plenty of shops selling Kubuntu CDs and I'd welcome it on a memory stick too
22:01 < nixternal> I haven't tried it on a memory stick, I want to now...man, I would need more than 4gb, that is expensive :)
22:01 < Riddell> nixternal: CDs are 700MB, that's all that's needed
22:02 < nixternal> ya, but I want to run Kubuntu from the stick, not the iso
22:02 < Rudd-X> I tried it on memstick, and I lug it around all the time.  I use it to fix my poweredge (no cd drive) when I can't boot it.
22:02 < nixternal> that is exactly how we did the Ubuntu one, and it was slow
22:02 < stdin> <frank23> QUESTION: Appart from catching up feature-wise with ubuntu, are there major new features planned for Kubuntu 8.04. Will bug fixing and stabilizing be a major priority?
22:02 < Rudd-X> I think I used isolinux or ms-sys to make the stick boot from the files copied on the disk.
22:03 < nixternal> Bug fixing, stabalizing, and catching up will be huge, but of course we are always open to what the users want and we will listen
22:03 < Riddell> the major new feature will be KDE 4.0
22:03 < Riddell> (for the brave!)
22:03 < nixternal> if we can't get it on the disc, we can put it elsewhere so it is easy for you to get, as long as it is free of course :)
22:04 < stdin> <ttread> QUESTION: Where should an aspiring developer go for more info?
22:04 < nixternal> #kubuntu-devel
22:04 < nixternal> we sit in there and watch Riddell dance and drink irn all day long!
22:04 < ryanakca> wow
22:04 < Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu too
22:05 < nixternal> which of course needs to be updated, so if someone wants to help do that, there you go :)
22:05 < Riddell> :)
22:05 < nixternal> for people who are brand new and want to get in and working towards being a developer, we have plenty of small jobs, and seeing as I do the documentation, any help is tremendous help in that arena especially if you read and write english at least as bad as I do
22:06 < nixternal> translations!!!! translations!!!! but I will talk more about that on Saturday during the documentation talk
22:06 < nixternal> Just so everyone knows, Kubuntu has our philosophies, and that is what I love, but we also have the users that we need to make happy, so user input is a huge must
22:06 < nixternal> that is where fresh blood really comes in handy
22:07 < nixternal> like I said, if you just installed Linux, or you are running Apple or Windows and want to know what this Linux is, even if you don't like it, tell us how to make it better so in the future you will like it
22:07 < stdin> and help your fellow man/woman in #kubuntu (sorry for the plug)
22:07 < nixternal> hahaha, most definitely
22:08 < nixternal> see if you can top Jucato in the amount of help he has doled out...which I thing is a tough one to beat
22:08 < nixternal> in 2 years, I didn't even equal him in 6 months
22:08 < nixternal> wow, jcastro no 2nd class citizen man! :)
22:08 < frank23> nixternal: what is the schedule for hardy kubuntu documentation? I had helped out for the dapper kubuntu docs. This time around, I'd like to at least proofread the documention. things tend to get outdated when they don't get reviewed as I noticed in the gutsy docs
22:08 < nixternal> you guys got some ideas, some feedback. let it roll
22:09 < hydrogen> make adept not suck.
22:09  * hydrogen hides :)
22:09 < nixternal> frank23: I will probably start working on it again in the next 2 or 3 months, when we know for sure what is going to be set in stone
22:09 < nixternal> hydrogen: hahaha, I was going to say "that's impossible", but I know there is a plan somewhere on doing just that
22:10 < nixternal> I have just started using Adept here again just to check it out, and I will see it has gotten better
22:10 < hydrogen> mm, searching is still a "please just shoot me in the head" type of thing
22:10 < hydrogen> but, i'll stop disturbing
22:10 < nixternal> ya, it really is filtering and not searching
22:10 < hydrogen> back to being productive!
22:10 < nixternal> hehe
22:11 < ubunturos> a small request, nixternal: use the nick while answering questions (if x asked it, x: answer) - *request*
22:11 < Daisuke_Ido> a qt package manager that's more like synaptic? >_>
22:11 < nixternal> ubunturos: no problem
22:11 < popey> time is pretty much up
22:11 < popey> but you're free to carry on
22:11 < nixternal> popey: carrying on here :)
22:11 < Rudd-X> adept dies on me sometimes
22:12 < stdin> we KDE users like to rock hard :)
22:12 < Daisuke_Ido> adept just makes me cry
22:12 -!- mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo LjL AndrewB] by ChanServ
22:12 < Riddell> it's unclear what will happen to adept with KDE 4
22:12 < nixternal> OK, so it seems like Adept is something we definitely need to work on
22:12 < Riddell> it may get ported, or we may start from scratch using something like packagekit
22:12 < hydrogen> mm
22:12 < nixternal> oh ya, I forgot about PackageKit
22:12 < Rudd-X> yeah!  what about packagekit?
22:13 < Rudd-X> that is one of the "projects to watch"!
22:13 < Riddell> well, packagekit is interesting, but currently very incomplete for apt and without an apt maintainer
22:13 < Rudd-X> is it gonna be integrated?
22:13 < frank23> adept... well it's better than kynaptic anyways ;)
22:13 < nixternal> heh
22:13 < Rudd-X> i just made a quick addition about adept in the helpingkubuntu page
22:13  * Mez bashes head on wall  at the mention of kynaptic
22:13 < ubunturos> adept helped me solve a problem, I couldn't otherwise
22:13 < nixternal> lol
22:14 < nixternal> Mez: I haven't been ignoring you :)
22:14 < nixternal> well, I have, just didn't want to sound mean
22:14 < nixternal> hehe
22:14 < Mez> nixternal, I know, I didnt realise you were doing your talk - tis cool...
22:14 < nixternal> what do you guys/gals want to see in Hardy?
22:14 < nixternal> besides Adept :p
22:14 < ttread> nixternal: When an app fails to launch, I get the bouncing cursor for 30 sec or so... and then nothing.  Any way to get better feedback to the user?
22:14 < ryanakca> nixternal: better eGroupWare support in Kontact ;)
22:14 < ubunturos> more K apps ;)
22:15 < Mez> ttread, er, I believe in gutsy that apport is worknig for kde aps ;)
22:15 < Rudd-X> ttread: how hard would it be to show a nice message with stdout/err of apps that returned with a != 0 external code?
22:15 < nixternal> only way I can think of is launching it from the command line to see why it bugs up on you
22:15 < nixternal> ryanakca: amen!
22:15 < Daisuke_Ido> for the end user, a better way to install themes (window decorations, etc)
22:15 < Riddell> ttread: that's hard to do because KDE doesn't know if the app has sucessfully quit or just not started, but it's an upstream issue not Kubuntu specific
22:15 < Daisuke_Ido> so many questions about installing from kde-look :\
22:15 < frank23> qtparted has a very long lasting bug. It streches to several times the width of the screen on a big drive.
22:15 < Rudd-X> Riddell: but kde apps that start sucessfully fork and return 0
22:15 < frijolie> how do you get rid of the bouncing cursor?
22:15 < frijolie> that's annoying
22:15 < ryanakca> frijolie: somewhere's in System Settings...
22:15 < Rudd-X> frijolie: in your startup notification settings
22:16 < Rudd-X> don't bother with system settings yet, use kcontrol directly
22:16 < pointwood> Riddell: stability, stability, stability ;)
22:16 < Rudd-X> type notif in the search box and you will see
22:16 < ryanakca> frijolie: in some dark corner covered in cobwebs that nobody ever goes in
22:16 < pointwood> @ what I want from hardy
22:16 < Riddell> Rudd-X: true, well patches welcome :)
22:16 < Riddell> pointwood: funny thing about bugs, we have people helping with features but for some reason bug fixing is boring :)
22:16 < stdin> frijolie: "system settings > keyboard & mouse > mouse > Visual feedback on activation" (it's well hidden)
22:16 < Mez> Rudd-X, system settings is quite good for what it is IMO
22:17 < stdin> oh wow, 1 second quicker...
22:17 < nixternal> so good in fact that it is the new systems manager for KDE 4
22:17 < Mez> but not as flexible as kcontrol
22:17 < nixternal> not yet
22:17 < hydrogen> speaking as a developer as well as a user.. I think it would be nice if kubuntu could either work out a way to install debug symbols by default for packages, or at least make it really easy to install them
22:17 < Rudd-X> and I think not as complete either
22:17 < nixternal> but it will be
22:17 < Rudd-X> hydrogen: yes!  debug symbols!
22:17 < Mez> hydrogen, pitti has a debug symbols archive somewhere
22:17 < nixternal> hydrogen: packagename-dbg if it is available for that package
22:18 < Rudd-X> it should be an option directly on adept
22:18 < nixternal> that would be for Ubuntu in general
22:18 < Mez> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-September/000195.html
22:18 < hydrogen> nixternal: yea, I realize they can be gotten, it would be nice if they were there by default though
22:18 < stdin> hydrogen: there is, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/ddebs/ is an archive will -dbgsym ddebs for all packages
22:18 < Riddell> hydrogen: that's an interesting idea
22:18 < nixternal> Rudd-X: good idea!
22:18 < Rudd-X> something that we don't need to do manually with intervention
22:18 < nixternal> Riddell: Rudd-X said it should be an option in Adept
22:18 < nixternal> that is a good idea actually
22:18 < Riddell> yes, or apport
22:18 < Rudd-X> not so much an option
22:18 < peppych> Have to go now, thanks nixternal for the session and thanks to all for this other great OW day, I cant wait tomorrow. see you all
22:18 < Rudd-X> as a setting that defaults to off but when you turn it on, all subsequent packages you install get their -dbg appended to the trnasaction
22:18 < hydrogen> because getting backtraces that are full of ?? is not all that helpful, and sometimes crashes are not easily reproducable
22:18 < nixternal> thanks peppych
22:18 < vyoman> for how long do you see KDE 3.x to continue after the launch of version 4?
22:18 -!- mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-v stgraber] by ChanServ
22:19  * hydrogen is thinking till at least 4.1
22:19 < Rudd-X> hydrogen: yes, the precious backtraces I get are useful
22:19 < nixternal> vyoman: I thought it was done, but I heard it will continue until 4.1 is a viable replacement
22:19 < Rudd-X> is there a way to combine saved cores with separately downloaded or even installed debug symbols ?
22:19 < nixternal> > or >> :)
22:19 < Rudd-X> nixternal: rofl
22:19 < nixternal> hehe
22:20 < nixternal> I wondered the same thing actually, as that would make it less of a mess when I am going through them on LP for sure
22:20 < vyoman> i am thinking that much work on the next release could be lost when moving to version 4
22:20 < hydrogen> othre than that.. I've been very happy with gutsy so far
22:20 < BonesolTeraDyne> Here's an idea: A lauchpad front-end in an application. YOu could view and search bugs\answers\ect without having to go to the site in a browser
22:20 < Rudd-X> LP should be able to combine them and show the proper symbols
22:20 < Rudd-X> but I don't think that's easy
22:20 < Rudd-X> and it would requiore a HUGE symbosl archive
22:20 < stdin> I think LP re-runs backtraces with debugging symbols when bugs are reported from apport
22:20 < nixternal> vyoman: it is a loss we are willing to make, even though I think changes we make now will be easy to carry into KDE 4
22:20 < hydrogen> compiz by default in hardy would be nice
22:20 < stdin> but I have no clue how that's done
22:20 < Riddell> Rudd-X: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/DebuggingProgramCrash might help
22:21 < Rudd-X> Riddell: thanks
22:21 < Daisuke_Ido> hydrogen: as hardy is designed for stability, i wouldn't hold my breath if i were you
22:21 < Rudd-X> 80% gnome-system-tools
22:21 < pointwood> my bet is that bling will come when kde4 becomes default
22:21 < hydrogen> Daisuke_Ido: its been definatly improving
22:21 < Riddell> BonesolTeraDyne: bughelper
22:21 < hydrogen> pointwood: well, kde4 will have compositing built in
22:21 < pointwood> integrated into kwin
22:21 < nixternal> hydrogen: if they can get the KDE bugs worked out with Compiz, then it will defintely be looked into, at least add an easy option to enable it
22:21 < pointwood> hydrogen: exactly
22:21 < Rudd-X> haha festival pronounces kwin "queen"
22:22 -!- mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+v nixternal] by ChanServ
22:22 -!- mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+v Riddell] by ChanServ
22:22 < hydrogen> one thing I would really like to see.. and I realize that its not that easy, is for kubuntu to not lag a release or so behind when it comes to the new user friendly applications
22:22 < BonesolTeraDyne> Riddell: I mean an all in one, not just for bugs
22:22 < stdin> hydrogen: that's why we need more developers
22:23 <+nixternal> hydrogen: we would like to see that too, but of course we need help in ensuring that
22:23 < hydrogen> it would be really nice if they started pioneering the new apps, but having it by the same release would be nice enough
22:23 < stdin> hydrogen: like Balmer says "Developers!!! Developers!!! Developers!!! AHHHH!"
22:23 <+nixternal> omg, the monkey dance
22:23 < pointwood> ugh! bad pics in my head! get rid of them!
22:23 <+nixternal> haha
22:23 < hydrogen> nixternal: well, yea.. the thing that I see is that a lot of times the feature is not announced as being part of the next release of gnome until after the freeze
22:23 < hydrogen> which is too late to make a kde frontend
22:24 <+nixternal> ahhhhh, I see what you are saying...yes
22:24 <+nixternal> ie. Gdebi :)
22:24 <+Riddell> hydrogen: anything specific in mind?
22:24 <+nixternal> but we were slow on that one
22:24 < hydrogen> Riddell: restricted-manager, update-manager
22:24 < vyoman> developers: I think the QT java bindings could help, tapping into the java dev could be huge
22:24 < Rudd-X> hang on gonna get some beerz
22:24 <+nixternal> vyoman: we have them \o/
22:25 < stdin> how long did it take to have a "working" version upgrade system for Kubuntu? ;)
22:25 < vyoman> ai ;)
22:25 <+nixternal> Qt Jambi is in Gutsy!!!
22:25  * nixternal uses it
22:25 < Mez> stdin, do we have one yet?
22:25 < Mez> mine keeps telling me that gutsy's available
22:25 <+nixternal> Mez: I hope so, I just documented it
22:25 < stdin> Mez: yep, upgraded my feisty deskrop today
22:25 < Mez> (any time I get a gutsy update)
22:25 < BonesolTeraDyne> Mez: Mine too, even though I'm running Gutsy.
22:25 < stdin> having -proposed enabled helps
22:26 <+nixternal> nice wallop there, #sandiegofire if anyone is affected by the fires right now...to late for my aunt, she lost her crib yesterday
22:29 <+Riddell> any more questions?
22:29 < vyoman> I would like to see harddisk encryption in the next release, its a must in gov and enterprise for laptops, can kubuntu do that alone or is it a joined effort with ubuntu?
22:29 < Daisuke_Ido> how many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?
22:29 < Daisuke_Ido> sorry...  i had to :\
22:29 < FADON> I only want to know, what is going to happen with konqueror in the future
22:29 <+nixternal> crunch
22:29 <+nixternal> FADON: nothing, it is staying!
22:29 <+Riddell> vyoman: that's an installer issue so common to all variants, d-i may be able to do it already I'm not sure
22:29 < stdin> vyoman: that has to be a low level thing, in the base system
22:30 < vyoman> got ya thanks
22:30 <+nixternal> FADON: Dolphin will just be a simpler file manager, Konqi will still do what it does, and do it better
22:30 < Daisuke_Ido> vyoman: i would imagine that would be joint.  maybe the guys behind truecrypt would be useful?
22:30 < FADON> great :D
22:31 <+Riddell> looks like we're about done
22:31 < Fujitsu> Daisuke_Ido: The alternate/server installer *buntu 7.10 supports disk encryption, and Ubiquity hopefully will for 8.04 LTS.
22:31 <+nixternal> rock on!
22:31 <+Riddell> thanks nixternal, top session
22:31 < Fujitsu> s/installer/installer in/
22:31 <+nixternal> thank you Riddell for the help :)
22:31 < stdin> ooh, here's a question (more for Riddell), how much support does Kubuntu receive from Canonical compared to Ubuntu?
22:32 <+Riddell> stdin: you mean commercial support offering sold by canonical?
22:32 <+nixternal> hey everyone, kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com for development stuff, kubuntu-users@lists.kubuntu.org for support, and http://www.kubuntuforums.net for forums support
22:32 < stdin> Riddell: well that, and the time/money canonical devote to kubuntu
22:32 <+nixternal> if you have ideas and what not, we will open up a wiki page, if it hasn't been done already, so you can add your ideas....you all had great questions and some really great ideas
22:32 < hydrogen> of course I did
22:33 < hydrogen> i'm great after all
22:33 < FADON> in my opinion, i've seen much more forums and blogs about ubuntu instead of kubuntu, is like not all the people knows about "the other offers"
22:33 <+Riddell> stdin: hard to break down since we're just variants of each other and 90% the same, most work applies to both.  but I'm the only person paid to work full time on it by Canonical
22:33 <+Riddell> stdin: in regards to commercial support offering, they're both entirely supported, buy some now from shop.canonical.com!
22:34 < andrei> QUESTION: will there be kubuntu backpacks at the Canonical Store ? :D
22:34 -!- mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Mez] by ChanServ
22:34 < FADON> they always are there
22:34 -!- Mez changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Sessions will resume at 15.00 UTC on Wednesday 24th October
22:34 < stdin> I want one of those huddies from shop.canonical.com, but kubuntu branded :)
22:35 <@Mez> stdin, speak to sealne
22:35 < popey> or gerry carr
22:35 <@Mez> I remember scott saying something about him possibly making some up
22:35 -!- mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-vv nixternal Riddell] by Mez
22:35 < FADON> ok, tomorrow 12 Hs argentina, during the lunch :P
22:35 -!- mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Mez] by ChanServ
22:36 < Riddell> andrei: you'd need to ask Gerry the marketing man (gerry.carr@canonical)
22:36 < Riddell> or /msg sealne for t-shirts indeed