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Ubuntu Open Week - Kubuntu - reinventing Q+A the resource-limited way - Jonthe Echidna - Wed, Nov 5th, 2008

(12:59:05 PM) JontheEchidna: Ok! Let's rock this.
(12:59:16 PM) JontheEchidna: My name is Jonathan, you can call me Jon
(12:59:30 PM) JontheEchidna: I assume you are either idling here because you were in the last session
(12:59:40 PM) JontheEchidna: or you came here to listen to my type about Qa
(12:59:51 PM) JontheEchidna: which in this case is Quality assurance
(01:00:19 PM) JontheEchidna: Ever been bitten by a bug? Have you ever seen people complain about bugs in Kubuntu on the web?
(01:00:34 PM) JontheEchidna: I'm guessing most people have, but fear not! You can help
(01:01:03 PM) JontheEchidna: Starting in the middle of Intrepid we have started to try to make a process to help ensure that Kubuntu is good
(01:01:12 PM) JontheEchidna: and as a result it is easier than ever to jump in
(01:01:47 PM) JontheEchidna: To answer the question "How can I help improve the quality of Kubuntu" I will show what we at Kubuntu (should) do to handle bugs and make sure they get resolved
(01:02:17 PM) JontheEchidna: -Bug reports are the most direct means of feedback
(01:02:29 PM) JontheEchidna: Without them, we cannot know about bugs
(01:02:47 PM) JontheEchidna: Something that absolutely anybody can do is report bugs
(01:03:13 PM) JontheEchidna: you can't know how irritating it is to hear people say "omg kubuntu is so buggy" but then never say what was wrong :/
(01:03:34 PM) JontheEchidna: So bug reporting is a great way of helping to make sure issues get resolved
(01:03:57 PM) JontheEchidna: But, as anybody who has taken a look at the Ubuntu bug tracker may already know, we get a *lot* of bug reports
(01:04:10 PM) JontheEchidna: and bug reports do pile up over time....
(01:04:41 PM) JontheEchidna: so to be able to efficiently handle them all, we must triage them and otherwise get the number of reports down
(01:05:23 PM) JontheEchidna: Kubuntu is lucky that it generally only has to worry about bugs for KDE or KDE related packages and Kubuntu tools such as the restricted drivers manager
(01:05:43 PM) JontheEchidna: but we still have ~3000 bugs in launchpad that contain either the words "kde" or "kubuntu"
(01:05:55 PM) JontheEchidna: and at the moment we have 4 or 5 people triaging the whole thing
(01:06:33 PM) JontheEchidna: Here is what we do to handle bug
(01:06:35 PM) JontheEchidna: s
(01:06:47 PM) JontheEchidna: First, we look for duplicate bugs
(01:07:05 PM) JontheEchidna: Second, we see if the bug has proper information to be handled
(01:07:20 PM) JontheEchidna: We want to see at least: Kubuntu/KDE version
(01:07:31 PM) JontheEchidna: -good backtraces if the bug is a crasher
(01:07:52 PM) JontheEchidna: and instructions on how to reproduce are vital for non-crash bugs, and very nice even for bugs with a backtrace
(01:08:22 PM) JontheEchidna: If you see a bug that lacks any of the above, please request the information from the reporter and set the status to incomplete
(01:09:11 PM) JontheEchidna: If the backtrace for a crasher contains lots of (no debugging symbols found) lines, the user will need to install the approriate debugging symbol package
(01:09:35 PM) JontheEchidna: plasma and kwin have debugging symbols in kdebase-workspace-dbg
(01:09:47 PM) JontheEchidna: most other apps are easy to figure out since they belong to a KDE module
(01:10:04 PM) JontheEchidna: <Oxyhydrogen> QUESTION: what are backtraces? and how to get such a thing?
(01:10:14 PM) JontheEchidna: good question!
(01:10:36 PM) JontheEchidna: backtraces are logs that give information about where in a program's source code the crash happened
(01:10:57 PM) JontheEchidna: this can help pinpoint buggy code
(01:11:10 PM) JontheEchidna: and they help to find duplicates
(01:11:42 PM) JontheEchidna: continuing
(01:12:05 PM) JontheEchidna: Sadly, many people are what can be called "hit-and-run reporters"
(01:12:25 PM) JontheEchidna: They report a bug and assume that the developers are magical fairies that can fix anything
(01:13:02 PM) JontheEchidna: if nobody responds to a request for information within a month, we generally have to close the bug since it can't be investigated
(01:13:10 PM) JontheEchidna: and would be clogging the bugtracker otherwise
(01:13:45 PM) JontheEchidna: But what to do when we do get enough info to investigate the bug?
(01:14:07 PM) JontheEchidna: If the bug is not something we at Kubuntu have caused, the best course of action is to let KDE know about they bug
(01:14:37 PM) JontheEchidna: Once we get enough info, reports should be filed upstream and linked to our bugtracker
(01:14:46 PM) JontheEchidna: This is essential to getting bugs fixed
(01:15:01 PM) JontheEchidna: Because just like us, KDE can't fix bugs they don't know aobut
(01:15:19 PM) JontheEchidna: The first step when upstreaming a bug is to search the KDE bug tracker!
(01:15:37 PM) JontheEchidna: Duplicate bugs aren't nice to the bug triagers upstream
(01:16:05 PM) JontheEchidna: If you can't find the bug upstream then we can report it
(01:16:50 PM) JontheEchidna: KDE has a nice feature where you can report a bug to KDE from the About menu of the application. If you have the same version of KDE as the user reporting the bug, you can use this to save time filling out info about your software setup :D
(01:17:14 PM) JontheEchidna: Once you have posted the bug upstream, you will then need to link the bug back to launchpad
(01:17:29 PM) Milyardo_ is now known as Milyardo
(01:17:50 PM) JontheEchidna: Above the bug description in Launchpad there should be a button that says "Also affects project". From there you paste in the url to the KDE bug report
(01:18:23 PM) JontheEchidna: A more in-depth look at upstreaming bugs will be given by jcastro in the next session "Upstreaming bugs"
(01:18:40 PM) JontheEchidna: It is also important to keep an eye on the upstream bug
(01:18:59 PM) JontheEchidna: subscribe yourself to either the upstream bug or the launchpad bug with the upstream watch
(01:19:33 PM) JontheEchidna: As bugs get fixed upstream, the fixes do have to make their way back down to us
(01:20:08 PM) JontheEchidna: If an upstream bug is marked as Fixed, we can set the launchpad bug to "fix committed", because the fix has been committed upstream
(01:20:49 PM) JontheEchidna: If we are early on in the development cycle, the bugs will generally be taken care of when we update the KDE packages to the latest  KDE release
(01:21:39 PM) JontheEchidna: But if the last KDE release before our Final release has been made, then we should patch the bugs with the upstream fix to make sure they aren't in the final release
(01:22:17 PM) JontheEchidna: To do this we grab the patch from KDE. They generally tell us what svn revision we can find the patch in
(01:22:33 PM) JontheEchidna: And then we add that patch to our packages, following this method: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete#quilt%20%28example%20package:%20xterm%29
(01:22:50 PM) JontheEchidna: Once the patch is sponsored and uploaded, we can mark the bug fixed :)
(01:23:17 PM) JontheEchidna: Of course, if you have C++ skills you are emplored to attack any of the bugs either in Launchpad or the KDE bug tracker
(01:23:27 PM) JontheEchidna: This benefits both us and KDE
(01:24:17 PM) JontheEchidna: = Kubuntu bugs =
(01:24:36 PM) JontheEchidna: actually, before I get in to non-KDE bugs, are there any questions?
(01:25:35 PM) JontheEchidna: Continuing on...
(01:25:40 PM) JontheEchidna: oh, wait
(01:25:49 PM) JontheEchidna: QUESTION: what about bugs in old kde3 apps that won't get updates from upstream? (like kaffeine)
(01:26:15 PM) JontheEchidna: Unfortunately we can't do much to get upstream to fix bugs in unmaintained apps
(01:26:33 PM) JontheEchidna: If volunteers want to fix bugs, then by all means we do accept patches :)
(01:27:06 PM) JontheEchidna: But, as the topic suggests, we don't really have the resources to fix all the bugs ourselves
(01:27:32 PM) JontheEchidna: any more?
(01:28:37 PM) JontheEchidna: I would like to note that if a KDE3 app such as Kaffiene *does* turn out to have a security bug or such, that we will provide patches for that for supported distros
(01:28:45 PM) JontheEchidna: up until the support for that distro ends
(01:29:07 PM) JontheEchidna: Hardy should have another year of security updates to ensure that Linux stays secure
(01:29:48 PM) JontheEchidna: So, that's basically what we do to handle bugflow
(01:30:15 PM) JontheEchidna: We always would like help, and not only with bugs
(01:30:47 PM) JontheEchidna: If you are interested in helping everybody's favorite Debian-based KDE distro, we'd be glad to include you in our community
(01:30:55 PM) JontheEchidna: you can find us in the #kubuntu-devel channel
(01:31:31 PM) JontheEchidna: If you're interested in actually fixing bugs, that can be very simple too, once you gain experience
(01:32:07 PM) JontheEchidna: In fact, Friday at 15:00 UTC there will be a session by Daniel Holbach about bugfixing
(01:32:33 PM) JontheEchidna: "the thing with kaffeine is that the maintainer uploaded some patches to the svn but said that he won't release another old qt3 version, cause the qt4 port will get ready in time. and i was wondering if i might get one of the atsc scanning fixes in the current ubuntu package"
(01:32:43 PM) JontheEchidna: This actually raises a very good point
(01:33:03 PM) JontheEchidna: If you know patches that have been included in svn, please file bugs at Kubuntu about this!
(01:33:29 PM) JontheEchidna: If somebody finds the time we'll gladly include patches coming from upstream
(01:33:58 PM) JontheEchidna: although, I think we're still one minor version behind the latest kaffiene release... eheh
(01:34:30 PM) JontheEchidna: If you'd like to help participate in updating patches, we're always looking for new packaging people too!
(01:34:59 PM) JontheEchidna: We will train you in the secret art of BatPackaging!
(01:35:32 PM) JontheEchidna: and maybe one day any one of your could be preparing packages for the newest KDE release
(01:35:57 PM) JontheEchidna: <mtron_x86> thanks for the info. i thought that i need to get the patch in debian first
(01:36:08 PM) JontheEchidna: This is handled by us actually
(01:36:27 PM) JontheEchidna: At the beginning of each Ubuntu/Kubuntu cycle we merge our packaging with Debian
(01:36:45 PM) JontheEchidna: we take changes that debian has made to their packages since their last merge
(01:37:00 PM) JontheEchidna: and we also tell them what our changes have been, in case they want to include them too
(01:37:59 PM) JontheEchidna: Anyway, if you'd like to participate in packaging or merging, you can always join in the fun at #kubuntu-devel
(01:38:10 PM) JontheEchidna: This is also handy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete
(01:38:32 PM) JontheEchidna: Oh! I almost forgot to give out resources for forwarding bugs upstream!
(01:39:00 PM) JontheEchidna: Unfortunately, due to limited manpower, we still have several dozen bug reports lying around that need to be forwarded upstream
(01:39:32 PM) JontheEchidna: This is a handy tool to check which packages are in need of bugs being forwarded: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport
(01:39:49 PM) JontheEchidna: and this is a list of most kde-specific bugs that need forwarded
(01:39:52 PM) JontheEchidna: http://tinyurl.com/5b4nwo
(01:40:02 PM) JontheEchidna: <Oxyhydrogen> QUESTION: whom would I have to talk to in #kubuntu-devel?
(01:40:09 PM) JontheEchidna: Anybody really!
(01:40:30 PM) JontheEchidna: Riddell, apachelogger (who is unsuspiciously absent), vorian, myself
(01:40:44 PM) JontheEchidna: the great thing about kubuntu is the community in my opinion
(01:41:42 PM) JontheEchidna: in fact, it was Nightrose who got me in to Kubuntu, by suggesting that I notify people about the problems I was seeing in the KDE4 edition of Hardy
(01:41:49 PM) JontheEchidna: things sorta snowballed from there...
(01:42:00 PM) JontheEchidna: <knome> QUESTION: Is apachelogger affiliated with the Apache project?
(01:42:16 PM) JontheEchidna: I have no clue actually. If he wasn't so unsuspiciously missing you could ask him
(01:42:46 PM) stdin: he's more of an Amarok guy
(01:43:20 PM) JontheEchidna: Amaroklogger doesnt' quite roll off the tounge...
(01:43:24 PM) JontheEchidna: :P
(01:44:06 PM) JontheEchidna: <Oxyhydrogen> QUESTION: do a lot of you also work on KDE/Amarok/others?
(01:44:17 PM) JontheEchidna: Several of us do, in fact.
(01:44:43 PM) JontheEchidna: Smarter works upstream with KDE and hacks on accessibility apps
(01:45:12 PM) JontheEchidna: Nightrose and apachelogger do a lot of work with amarok
(01:45:19 PM) JontheEchidna: making packages for Kubuntu
(01:45:27 PM) JontheEchidna: and Nightrose is actually an amarok team member
(01:45:59 PM) JontheEchidna: Riddell contributes patches upstream when he's not too busy being the almighty Kubuntu robot
(01:46:14 PM) JontheEchidna: I have started working with mornfall of the Adept project
(01:46:41 PM) JontheEchidna: and we also have a few gnomies on our team :P
(01:47:08 PM) JontheEchidna: Kubuntu really is a mixture of some of the best people in the Free-software world
(01:47:26 PM) JontheEchidna: <knome> QUESTION: Do you cooperate with the Ubuntu/Xubuntu teams
(01:47:33 PM) JontheEchidna: Good question too
(01:47:58 PM) JontheEchidna: Recently NCommander has been contributing to Kubuntu. He's an Xubuntu dev too
(01:48:15 PM) JontheEchidna: I haven't heard him complaining about what we do, so we must be doing something right :P
(01:48:38 PM) JontheEchidna: I think our relations with Ubuntu could be better, but both sides will have to work at that
(01:49:23 PM) JontheEchidna: <knome> QUESTION: What do you think about many people being unsatisfied with the new KDE4 desktop compared to the 3.x series?
(01:49:44 PM) JontheEchidna: Now that is the million-$CURRENCY-question, now isn't it...
(01:50:02 PM) JontheEchidna: Personally I think anybody who doesn't like KDE4 is a hater :P
(01:50:19 PM) JontheEchidna: nah, some people have valid reasons for not likign KDE4
(01:50:39 PM) JontheEchidna: People are creatures of habit
(01:51:22 PM) JontheEchidna: and even though the KDE team has done a great accomplishment rewriting as much of KDE as they have done in 8 months (they have done most of it) I recognize that it's not all there yet
(01:51:35 PM) JontheEchidna: but at the same time I recognize that things will get better
(01:51:47 PM) JontheEchidna: in addition, we'll also see things in KDE4 that we never coudl have seen in KDE3
(01:52:23 PM) JontheEchidna: <Oxyhydrogen> QUESTION: what was the overall reaction to Kubuntu 8.10?
(01:52:31 PM) JontheEchidna: I'd like to think that the overall reaction is good
(01:52:51 PM) JontheEchidna: You do have a very vocal minority that frequents such places as dot.kde.org
(01:53:20 PM) JontheEchidna: where the announcement thread turned into a 300-post complaint about KDE4 not being ready
(01:53:40 PM) JontheEchidna: but I've also heard very positive things about Kubuntu 8.10 even from people who thought they wouldn't like it
(01:54:01 PM) JontheEchidna: <knome> QUESTION: Are you going to offer something shiny with the next Kubuntu release and try to make new users or to make KDE4 more stable and maybe suitable for the people who stopped using Kubuntu again?
(01:54:12 PM) JontheEchidna: I'd say... both!
(01:54:26 PM) JontheEchidna: The next KDE4 release itself is going to come with many shiny things
(01:54:36 PM) JontheEchidna: Desktop cube effect
(01:54:42 PM) JontheEchidna: panel autohiding
(01:54:52 PM) JontheEchidna: and lots of neat polished features and enhancements
(01:55:04 PM) JontheEchidna: but at the same time we'd like to emphasis on stability
(01:55:17 PM) JontheEchidna: which is what this whole session is about, really
(01:55:27 PM) JontheEchidna: we're running out of time, so the next question is the last
(01:55:36 PM) JontheEchidna: <xjazz> QUESTION: what do you plan to realize in 9.04?
(01:56:02 PM) JontheEchidna: This is a rought draft of things we're going to discuss as possible features for 9.04: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuUDSJauntySpecs
(01:56:16 PM) JontheEchidna: I must emphasize that not all of those features will be pursued
(01:56:42 PM) JontheEchidna: but this is a wishlist the devs have put together for discussion at the developers summit
(01:58:00 PM) JontheEchidna: Next up we have Jorge Castro with his session "Upstreaming bugs"
(01:58:08 PM) jcastro: thanks JontheEchidna!
(01:58:12 PM) JontheEchidna: I'll be happy to answer further questions in #kubuntu
(01:58:21 PM) JontheEchidna: ...to a degree though :P