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Ubuntu Open Week - Ubuntu and your Money - Kurt von Finck - Thu, Nov 6th, 2008

(04:57:07 PM) jcastro: This one is called Ubuntu and Your Money
(04:57:12 PM) jcastro: starring Kurt von Finck
(04:57:14 PM) jcastro: aka mneptok
(04:57:36 PM) mneptok: \o/
(04:57:40 PM) jcastro: "How to make smart buying decisions as a free software user. Covers hardware, software, support, and services. "
(04:57:46 PM) jcastro: I have been looking forward to this one!
(04:58:09 PM) NCommander: oooh
(04:58:09 PM) mneptok: jcastro: i was asked not to dance half naked on the tables. still looking forward to it?
(04:58:12 PM) NCommander: sounds interesting
(04:58:32 PM) mneptok: everyone ready?
(04:58:46 PM) jcastro: ok, I will paste questions from #ubuntu-classroom-chat
(04:58:54 PM) jcastro: so please post your questions there
(04:59:03 PM) jcastro: mneptok: take it away!
(04:59:11 PM) mneptok: LET'S ROCK!
(04:59:17 PM) mneptok: Hello everyone, my name is Kurt von Finck. I'm an Ubuntu Member, as well as a Senior Ubuntu System Support Analyst for Canonical. I'll be discussing how, as a user of Free Software, you can make informed and smart buying decisions.
(04:59:32 PM) mneptok: I want to point out that although I am a Canonical employee, I am speaking today solely as a community member. Canonical does not endorse hardware products that have not been through the certification process, and certainly does not make specific vendor recommendations. I'll be using some examples during the session, and these are just that, examples.
(04:59:53 PM) mneptok: Please pay attention to the methodology and principles involved, and do not assume that because I use Dell, Valusoft, Newegg, Amazon, or some other vendor as an example that this is an official endorsement by Canonical.
(05:00:10 PM) mneptok: You will hear me discuss some strategies you might use to advance the cause of Free Software. Clearly, Canonical would benefit from this, as well. But rest assured, my interest and purpose here is to inform and educate, and thus benefit all users of Free Software, not just Ubuntu users or Canonical's business interests.
(05:00:28 PM) mneptok: Also, I will be talking about Canonical's support offerings. For this section of the session, you may expect that I am acting as an official Canonical spokesperson. But please, remember that for other sections, I'm a community member.
(05:00:46 PM) mneptok: Finally, about questions. I'd like to save these until the end (please jcastro), and I will NOT be entertaining "what printer do I buy, mneptok?!?!" type questions. :) Sorry, but I think that's a rat's nest I'll sidestep. But feel free to ask about strategies for printer shopping (or similar).
(05:01:23 PM) mneptok: Phew! Caveats are out of the way! Let's go!
(05:01:48 PM) mneptok: First, I want to be clear that this session is not intended to provide an in-depth look at hardware and software support. It's a basic "best practices" guide to making informed decisions. Also, a lot of this content may be moot in a few years. This is more a "Current State Of Affairs" talk than it is a timeless reference guide.
(05:02:12 PM) mneptok: Let's start with hardware, which is traditionally the biggest hurdle new users of Free Software face. Being fairly active on IRC, I see a lot of new Ubuntu users coming to grips with the fact that the world that they have entered is rather different from the world of Windows which most of them have left. Let's do a quick comparison.
(05:02:38 PM) mneptok: In the world of Windows, you are strictly a consumer. Products are created for you, and you pay to be able to have the right to use them. This is a very traditional business model, and the idea of how profit can be created from such a model is well understood. Thus, most hardware manufacturers understand how they can profit from the Windows ecosystem, and they actively participate in it.
(05:03:00 PM) mneptok: Also, Windows has a vast majority of the market share for operating systems. This also encourages vendors to focus on providing solutions for Windows, as their potential profit center is much larger.
(05:03:25 PM) mneptok: However, as we all know, hardware does not "Just Work" on Windows. Sure, almost every device you can find has a Windows driver, but a substantial portion of these have a *not very good* Windows driver. The web is rife with examples of users encountering the frustration this causes. That new inkjet printer just doesn't provide output that looks quite right. The USB PCI card driver works, but somehow disables the internal USB. The ...
(05:03:31 PM) mneptok: ... webcam operates, but the picture quality is far below what the hardware is capable of.
(05:03:46 PM) mneptok: If you have used Windows for any length of time, I'm sure you know the, "I know this is a good piece of hardware, but the driver renders it almost useless," sentiment.
(05:04:08 PM) mneptok: (That's almost worth a ;) but really it deserves a :/ )
(05:04:30 PM) mneptok: In the Free Software world things are quite different. Vendors that understand the open source model and embrace it are at a distinct advantage. First, if they open their drivers or hardware specifications, they allow a horde of skilled, yet unpaid, volunteers to work to refine and debug drivers. Second, their hardware drivers, if released under a GPLv2 compatible license, are allowed directly into the Linux kernel. In the case ...
(05:04:36 PM) mneptok: ... of the BSDs (Free, Open, Net, etc), the driver needs to be BSD compatible.
(05:05:00 PM) mneptok: Sadly, few vendors have taken this approach. But some have. Thus the situation roughly looks like this. If you use Windows, almost every device will work. However, few will work to their potential. If you use Linux, fewer devices work. But those that do work tend to do so fairly well. Make sense?
(05:05:26 PM) mneptok: Having your driver in the mainline kernel has distinct advantages. Let's use Intel as a victim ... err ... example here. :)
(05:05:46 PM) mneptok: A few years ago, Intel decided that they were first and foremost a hardware company. Thus, keeping drivers closed and secret was not in the best interest of their hardware business, which seeks as broad a base of adoption as possible. Intel released full design specs for their chipsets: CPUs, bridgesets, graphic adapters, and 802.11x, for example.
(05:06:10 PM) mneptok: The license Intel chose allows these open drivers to compiled into and distributed with the Linux kernel. This has a few effects.
(05:06:25 PM) mneptok: First, it means Linux developers started poking through the driver code and making improvements and tweaks, and/or filing bug reports against code they could see. This led to more robust drivers. Second, it means that if you have an Intel graphics adapter or wireless chipset, your devices "Just Work" in Linux. I have a Lenovo laptop with the Intel GMA965 graphics adapter and 4965BGN wireless chips. When I install Ubuntu, my ...
(05:06:31 PM) mneptok: ... wireless card works immediately, and I have 3D and compositing immediately.
(05:06:57 PM) mneptok: Contrast this to Broadcom, who regard themselves as purveyors of both hardware and software. They write their own drivers, and will not share the specs necessary to allow others to do driver development. Broadcom chooses not to write Linux or BSD drivers. Thus, getting Broadcom wireless working in Free Software has always been painful, and usually involves somehow "wrapping" the Windows driver so it works. Ugly.
(05:07:24 PM) mneptok: So, if you choose an Intel wireless chipset, you install Ubuntu, another Linux, or a type of BSD and everything works right away. If you choose a Broadcom chipset, you have no such guarantee. In fact, it is far more likely you will have problems than that you will eventually make things work.
(05:08:01 PM) mneptok: I am NOT disparaging Broadcom here. They have made a business decision. From OUR seats this decision seems flawed. But none of us are truly in a position to say for sure what the best business plan is for any company. Perhaps time will vindicate their position. Perhaps it will affirm ours. But until then, let's not cast aspersions needlessly. Let's keep a civil relationship with these businesses, so they continue to find our ...
(05:08:07 PM) mneptok: ... input credible and valuable. 'Nuff said.
(05:08:57 PM) mneptok: So, now that you have an idea of how this works, let's look at what manufacturers have made business decisions that make their products attractive to Free Software users.
(05:09:28 PM) mneptok: If you are buying a new machine on which to run Ubuntu it's tough to do much better than buying from an OEM that has partnered with Canonical. These vendors send their products through certification, and thus you may depend that they run Ubuntu without issue. A Dell, System76, Sylvania, or other product with Ubuntu pre-installed will give you a great "out-of-the-box" experience, for obvious reasons.
(05:09:55 PM) mneptok: You can look in on the Canonical certification process at: http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification
(05:10:18 PM) mneptok: This holds true for other Free Software offerings. eRacks, a server vendor, offers a variety of Free Software operating system options on their products; including Ubuntu, CentOS, OpenBSD, and others. It's a fairly safe bet that eRacks has tested their equipment and has determined that the products they sell you work with the OSes they offer as options.
(05:10:55 PM) mneptok: So, if you're buying a new machine, and want the easiest path to a system supported by Free Software, choose a vendor who has chosen Free Software. But what about if you're choosing a vendor without Free Software offerings, building your own, or adding components to an existing machine? Whose products do you choose? Again, choosing a vendor who has chosen to support Free Software is the best course of action.
(05:11:35 PM) mneptok: Intel is the poster child here. If you are buying a new machine you can't do much better than choosing Intel graphics and wireless. Intel's realization that they are first and foremost a hardware company, and that they trust the worldwide community of developers to help create robust driver sets for their products, makes them the clear choice of Free Software users.
(05:12:21 PM) mneptok: However, Intel does not provide much in the way of aftermarket products. Meaning, it's relatively easy to choose a motherboard with integrated Intel devices, but less easy to locate add-in Intel devices. The exception, mini-PCI Express wireless devices, proves the rule.
(05:12:38 PM) mneptok: http://www.amazon.com/Intel-wireless-3945ABG-Network-Connection/dp/B000EDQOK8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1225993082&sr=8-1
(05:12:45 PM) mneptok: http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Wifi-Link-Mini-Card/dp/B000QAY00K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1225994628&sr=8-2
(05:13:09 PM) mneptok: You can add-in Intel wireless, but Intel provides no add-in graphics. So, if you're looking at adding graphics and wireless options that are supported by Free Software, things become a little more complicated.
(05:13:45 PM) jcastro: andresmujica: please hold questions until the end
(05:13:55 PM) mneptok: For graphics, the two big players are nVidia and AMD/ATI. It used to be (just a few months ago) that nVidia was a somewhat better choice. nVidia does not offer Free drivers. They offer the same kind of driver support for Linux that they offer for Windows. Namely, they provide a closed-source driver that enables 3D and other advanced features.
(05:14:20 PM) mneptok: This approach is commonly called a "binary blob." The vendor supplies a driver, but does not provide access to the source code. Many Free Software advocates find this approach reprehensible, for obvious reasons. However, being pragmatic, users have needs, and if nVidia's binary approach suits your needs, then by all mean avail yourself of it.
(05:14:58 PM) mneptok: ATI used to use the same methodology. However, their binary drivers were not as robust as nVidia's in many cases, and that made nVidia somewhat of a better choice. However, the game has changed, as AMD has announced that they will be opening the source to their drivers over the coming months and years. Thus, while at this time last year nVidia seemed the better choice for add-in graphics, this seems to have changed.
(05:15:43 PM) mneptok: Understand, though, that binary blobs means work for the end user after installation. Ubuntu will not distribute code without source as part of the base distribution, and thus you'll need to add restricted drivers after you install to enable things like 3D (necessary for things like Compiz).
(05:16:14 PM) mneptok: Also, be sure to look at the binary blobs before choosing a card. The latest and greatest card may not have support in the drivers provided by the most recent Ubuntu release. Choose a card you can confirm has support in the current Ubuntu restricted packages.
(05:16:48 PM) mneptok: As concerns wireless, the best bet for aftermarket PCI cards are those based on the Atheros chipsets. Atheros is now opening their drivers, and prior to this decision the MadWiFi project reverse engineered Atheros drivers while Atheros turned a blind eye to the potential legal issues (thanks Atheros!). If you're shopping for wireless, and Intel has no options for you, look at the MadWiFi site and compare some of your choices to ...
(05:16:54 PM) mneptok: ... the Compatibility section of their site.
(05:16:58 PM) mneptok: http://madwifi-project.org/wiki/Compatibility
(05:17:51 PM) mneptok: As an example, if you are looking to purchase a Cardbus wireless adapter for use with Ubuntu, the SMC SMCWCB seems to be a good choice according to MadWiFi user reports. Newegg has this card for ~US$26.
(05:18:00 PM) mneptok: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833129133
(05:18:11 PM) mneptok: Carefully read MadWiFi's compatibility listings. Then look at your preferred vendor's site or retail location and ensure you choose something reported to have worked. Do not trust brand names. Trust specific models and chipsets. This holds true for most devices, not just wireless.
(05:18:32 PM) mneptok: On to printing!
(05:18:51 PM) mneptok: This one is actually pretty easy. OpenPrinting.
(05:19:01 PM) mneptok: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/OpenPrinting
(05:19:13 PM) mneptok: OpenPrinting is a project to document the current status quo for printing from Free operating systems. The project was recently brought under the aegis of the Linux Foundation. Their printer database is the best resource for Free Software users looking to purchase a printer they can depend upon.
(05:19:31 PM) mneptok: http://openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi
(05:19:53 PM) mneptok: Determine your needs (e.g. laser vs inkjet, scanning, faxing). Create a short list from your favorite vendor (e.g. Amazon, Newegg, Best Buy). Then look up the models on your short list in the OpenPrinting database. Your choices will narrow, and eventually become clear to you.
(05:20:56 PM) mneptok: Other sites exist that provide a database of devices that work (or do not) in Ubuntu. One example is the Linux USB Device database, which catalogs USB devices and their current support status in Linux:
(05:21:08 PM) mneptok: http://www.qbik.ch/usb/devices/
(05:22:33 PM) mneptok: What about software? Of course, most Ubuntu users do not purchase much software, and instead use the Free Software offerings provided by the package system. If you find yourself considering a purchase of commercial software, ensure you know the vendor's position with regards to Free Software.
(05:22:56 PM) mneptok: In some cases, using an RPM (Red Hat Package Manager) based distribution may be preferable, as this is what the software vendor uses. In some cases (e.g. IBM's db2), Ubuntu may be a better choice as the software vendor has taken steps to ensure compatibility with Ubuntu.
(05:23:26 PM) mneptok: This is a good rule of thumb no matter what OS you use, be it Free Software or not. Know the product. Know the vendor's preferences for OS versions. Know your support options.
(05:24:06 PM) mneptok: What about buying Ubuntu? As many of you may know, Ubuntu is now being offered for purchase at Best Buy. Why would you pay for what you can download for free? Well, precisely because of those support options. Ubuntu is being offered at Best Buy by a company named Valusoft. Valusoft offers 60 days of *starter* support if you buy their CD at Best Buy.
(05:24:50 PM) mneptok: Let's be fair. Valusoft is not going to help you configure a multi-domain mail and web server. :) But they'll help you get things working as best as Ubuntu can on your hardware. They can answer basic questions about installation. Spending that US$20 may be a good idea for someone entirely new to Linux.
(05:25:40 PM) mneptok: Which brings me to other types of support. When you choose Free Software, if you need support, make sure you know what your options are. For instance, if you choose to pay for an entitlement to Red Hat Enterprise Linux, you may rest assured that Red Hat will provide you with support. If you choose Fedora or CentOS, you will need to rely upon either the user community or third-party expertise for support.
(05:26:13 PM) mneptok: Ubuntu falls somewhere in the middle. Like Fedora or CentOS, use of the software does not cost you. Neither does availaing yourself of the free community resources (e.g. IRC or the Ubuntu Forums). You may also purchase commercial support and consulting services from qualified third parties. Some of them are listed in the Ubuntu Marketplace:
(05:26:21 PM) mneptok: http://webapps.ubuntu.com/marketplace/
(05:26:51 PM) mneptok: However, you are also able to purchase support from the corporate entity that helps drive the project, namely Canonical. We have desktop and server contracts, and 9*5 and 24*7 contracts. Our contracts cover 10 cases or 1 year, whichever comes first. And we only guarantee support for packages in the Main repository. Other work is on a "best effort" basis.
(05:27:27 PM) mneptok: As an example, I am currently helping a customer sort out issues with the RealPlayer plugin for Firefox. It may be that "it's broken, and I can't help you further," is the final answer. But this would not be the case with the Totem plugin, which is in Main. However, I'm not going to hang up on a paying customer. I won't let him stand between me and customers with problems with supported packages, but I'll make the effort to help ...
(05:27:33 PM) mneptok: ... him.
(05:28:17 PM) mneptok: Also, Canonical support is not a consulting service. We offer break/fix support. So, "What is Apache and how do I configure it?" is not a support question. "I am running Apache and mod-mneptok reliably crashes the daemon. This is an Apache module you provide by default," will really set off the alarm bells in our office. :)
(05:29:15 PM) mneptok: Canonical support contracts are available in the Canoncial web shop at:
(05:29:18 PM) mneptok: http://shop.canonical.com
(05:29:38 PM) mneptok: WHEW! Didjya get all that?  :D
(05:29:47 PM) jcastro: time for questions?
(05:29:49 PM) mneptok: In conclusion:
(05:29:58 PM) mneptok: - Do research. Know what you're buying. Rely upon the experiences of other users to guide your buying decisions.
(05:30:09 PM) mneptok: - Do not expect to grab any old printer (or mp3 player or other device) and be guaranteed of a satisfactory experience in Linux.
(05:30:18 PM) mneptok: - Know your support options. Know what is supported.
(05:30:30 PM) mneptok: And finally, SPEAK UP! :) Tell vendors you use Ubuntu (or Red Hat or Fedora or NetBSD or SuSE). Tell them you make choices based on an OEMs commitment to providing support for Free Software users. Tell them Canonical (or Red Hat or Novell) has ways to help them get certified and working. Tell them it's time to be open!
(05:30:55 PM) mneptok: Thanks a lot for your attention! I hope this was somewhat helpful to everyone. Let's open the floor to questions! Jorge! Who's my first victim?!  >:)
(05:31:01 PM) jcastro: QUESTION: What happened with the recently Broadcom linux drivers?  http://www.broadcom.com/support/802.11/linux_sta.php
(05:31:46 PM) mneptok: these drivers, like the nVidia drivers, are binary blobs.
(05:32:14 PM) jcastro: (just tell me "next" when you want another question)
(05:32:25 PM) mneptok: a user of these chipsets will face the same hurdles. you'll need to install Ubuntu, then use the wired connection to run updates and install restricted drivers.
(05:33:21 PM) mneptok: if you're OK with that, Broadcom's slightly more open attitude may be palatable to you.
(05:33:27 PM) mneptok: next q?
(05:33:30 PM) jcastro: QUESTION: Apart from the FSF database are there any other resources to find out which hardware works with  Free Software? So not just "works with Ubuntu", which doesn't say anything about blobs or proprietary  software.
(05:34:03 PM) mneptok: there's the OpenPrinting db for printers, and the USB Device DB for USB. i use these extensively.
(05:34:42 PM) mneptok: be aware, the FSF db will not list devices supported by blobs. so that may be a bit misleading as to "what works" and "what works with Free Software."
(05:35:11 PM) mneptok: that answer your question?
(05:35:18 PM) mneptok: (if so, next!) :)
(05:35:22 PM) jcastro: QUESTION: notwithstanding the fact that i love wikis, don't you think perhaps hardware compatibility might  deserve some more organized infrastructure? we have a "hardware compatibility report" utility currently in  Ubuntu, could that be expanded? If users were able (and encouraged by default) to give their hardware's
(05:35:27 PM) jcastro:  compatibility a "scoe" and comments, which would then end up on some public DB, hwhich other users could then  browse, could that
(05:35:32 PM) jcastro: not provide some good community buying advice?
(05:35:36 PM) jcastro: long question!
(05:35:54 PM) mneptok: that smells like LjL. hence, i will have to put on my Batgirl costume to answer ...
(05:36:06 PM) jcastro: heh, it is
(05:36:30 PM) LjL: :>
(05:36:31 PM) mneptok: i agree, a centralized database would be an excellent thing.
(05:37:21 PM) mneptok: i'd like to see such a thing for all Free Software variants. imagine checkboxes [x] Ubuntu || [x] Fedora || [ ] NetBSD
(05:37:51 PM) mneptok: the FSF runs something like this, but as i said, "what works" is sorta different than "what works with pure Free Software"
(05:38:18 PM) mneptok: i imagine most users want "what works," which is a choice i believe they are rightly entitled to make.
(05:38:54 PM) mneptok: so yes, such an idea has a lot of merit, IMO. perhaps we could start such a thing focused on Ubuntu, but expand it to embrace other communities.
(05:39:13 PM) mneptok: any more questions?
(05:39:16 PM) jcastro: <QUESTION> what about the diference between madwifi and ndiswraper ...
(05:39:46 PM) mneptok: MadWifi is a project to reverse engineer drivers for Atheros chipsets.
(05:40:12 PM) mneptok: the drivers supplied by the MadWifi project are designed and built for Linux
(05:41:08 PM) mneptok: ndiswrapper is not a driver. it's a wrapper, or a layer, that acts between the Windows driver and the Linux kernel.
(05:41:56 PM) mneptok: when you use MadWifi drivers you are only using software designed for Linux. when you use ndiswrapper, you use a driver designed for Windows, with what amounts to a traffic cop standing between that driver and the Linux kernel.
(05:42:14 PM) mneptok: next q?
(05:42:43 PM) jcastro: QUESTION: which languages can I get Canonical support in? Can I call you up in Dutch?
(05:43:39 PM) mneptok: currently we officially offer support in English, French, Spanish, and German
(05:43:56 PM) mneptok: so yes, you can speak Deutsch. ;P
(05:44:04 PM) mneptok: (not Dutch) ;)
(05:44:18 PM) jcastro: QUESTION: Is Canonical approaching hardware manufacturers and encourage them to open their?
(05:44:25 PM) jcastro: I assume he means "drivers" at the end of that
(05:45:06 PM) mneptok: i can't say for sure what we're doing in that regard, because that touches on a part of Canonical's business that i do not work in directly.
(05:45:18 PM) mneptok: and if i did, i imagine i couldn;t say anything, anyway. ;)
(05:45:23 PM) jcastro: For lists of supported hardware on Ubuntu see  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport - To help debugging and improving hardware detection, see  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingHardwareDetection
(05:45:33 PM) jcastro: Someone asked about a wiki page for hardware support
(05:45:35 PM) mneptok: but here's my best assumption, based on what i know of the industry ...
(05:45:38 PM) jcastro: so I am putting that in there for reference
(05:46:05 PM) mneptok: say Mnep-O-Net makes wireless controllers.
(05:46:25 PM) mneptok: and they release only binary drivers for Windows. and those chipsets are in *everything*
(05:46:55 PM) mneptok: now, Canonical approaches this company and says, "You need to make Linux drivers available, or open your drivers."
(05:47:12 PM) mneptok: as CEO, i'd ask "why? what we're doing now seems to be working just fine."
(05:47:23 PM) mneptok: and what could Canonical say to that?
(05:47:43 PM) mneptok: (answer: "pretty please? sabdfl will take you on a jet ride. honest!")
(05:48:08 PM) mneptok: not compelling (although sabdfl looks great at 20K feet, man)
(05:48:12 PM) mneptok: BUT ...
(05:48:33 PM) mneptok: say Canonical approaches someone like ... hmmm .... Dell.
(05:49:07 PM) mneptok: and then it's Dell that asks, because they want to keep using the same supply chain for Linux models as they do for Windows models.
(05:49:43 PM) mneptok: now the Mnep-O-Net CEO asks "why?" and Dell says "because we'd like to keep buying 50 million units per year, if we can. if not, Intel over there has ....."
(05:50:21 PM) mneptok: my guess is that this is the approach our team is taking. i have no evidence to base this on, but it seems logical.
(05:50:30 PM) mneptok: make sense?
(05:50:42 PM) jcastro: QUESTION: Are there any other support options beside telephone (chat, remote desktop, ...)?
(05:51:20 PM) mneptok: we handle cases via phone and the web. we have a web support portal that allows customers to create and update cases, and analysts to repsond to them.
(05:51:41 PM) mneptok: we do not currently use IRC, IM, or other real time Internet methods.
(05:52:21 PM) mneptok: any more questions?
(05:52:28 PM) jcastro: time for one more!
(05:52:33 PM) mneptok: woohaa!
(05:53:50 PM) jcastro: wow, I guess you were so thorough that there are no more questions
(05:54:11 PM) mneptok: or people fled when they realized who i was :)
(05:54:24 PM) mneptok: well, thanks everyone!
(05:54:27 PM) charlie-tca: Good information. Thank you.
(05:54:37 PM) samgee: thanks mneptok
(05:54:47 PM) mneptok: i'm an IRC junkie. feel free to find me in Ubuntu channels.
(05:55:01 PM) mneptok: i may not reply right away (paying customers and all) but i will reply.
(05:55:11 PM) jcastro: ok thanks Kurt!
(05:55:15 PM) samgee: whoo, free support :)
(05:55:17 PM) jcastro: thanks everyone for joining in today
(05:55:20 PM) mneptok: thanks for a great OpenWeek Jorge!