- # Standing agenda items:
- Review action items.
- Update our team report.
- UDS - Blueprints?
* Who are we: Need a simple, easily translatable slogan to explain to others within the community who we are and why we do what we do. Ideas? Is there really understanding of what the NGO team does outside the NGO team?
* From Karmic to Lucid: What are NGO-specific papercuts that we can identify for action this cycle?
* Stakeholder profiles: Any way to easily consolidate NGO interviews done so far and identify what other NGO types should be interviewed? Is there any way to accommodate a broader tranche of collaborators by having such available in a collected, printer-friendly form?
* Training: What tools could be deployed in conjunction with other teams to make training within NGOs as painless as possible? What other efforts are underway by other teams that we should collaborate in the development of?
* Advocacy: What are Ubuntu-NGO advocating? Clearly define Ubuntu-NGO's role as a means of networking NGOs, rather than a hub-spoke relationship with Ubuntu-NGO, keeping the NGOs separate.
- andylockran and Pendulum: To work on What we do for the wiki and help make it clearer
- dholbach: to find out what date and time the session at UDS will take place and mail the list with how to participate remotely.
- czajkowski: To blog post and find us a slogan
- jdardon: is going to mail czajkowski so we can get the interviews back up and running
- czajkowski: continue NGO interview series starting with andylockran
18:02 < dholbach> who wants to drive the meeting? 18:02 < czajkowski> I can if you like ? 18:02 -!- Topic for #ubuntu-ngo: What is Ubuntu-NGO, ROOT is here | http://daniel.holba.ch/blog/?p=422 | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO |Join https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ngo | IRC Meeting Wednesday 11th November 18:00 UTC https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO/Meeting | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-ngo 18:02 -!- Topic set by czajkowski [n=cypher@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.czajkowski] [Tue Nov 10 10:27:45 2009] 18:02 < dholbach> sure 18:02 * AlanBell pours the wine 18:03 < dholbach> sounds like we're all in a good mood :) 18:03 < dholbach> who's all here for the meeting? 18:03 * highvoltage 18:03 * czajkowski 18:03 * AlanBell 18:03 * Pendulum 18:03 * skellat fumbles with IRC client 18:03 * andylockran 18:04 < czajkowski> well we can post mins to the list and on the wiki afterwards 18:04 < czajkowski> I know with timezones its hard to be here 18:04 < czajkowski> so this evenings/afternoon/todays agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO/Meeting 18:04 < andylockran> :) 18:05 < czajkowski> so * Review action items 18:05 < highvoltage> w/win move 4 18:05 < czajkowski> I note from the mailing list there has been a lotta discussion on packaging CiviCRM and bugs 18:06 < czajkowski> anyone care to discuss the actions items 18:06 < dholbach> yes, we were able to clear a few licensing issues with upstreams of a couple of php modules 18:06 < dholbach> so that should make it easier for us to get them into debian and ubuntu 18:06 < czajkowski> I know my interview series went down wel and I plan on talking to andylockran soon about his project 18:06 < dholbach> there's still some way to go, but I hope I can discuss a few ideas with asomething at UDS 18:07 < czajkowski> good stuff 18:07 < dholbach> and we can move over to testing the civicrm packages (and pester upstream with issues :-)) 18:07 < dholbach> we have like 2 or 3 civicrm upstreams on the ngo team list now 18:07 < dholbach> which is great 18:07 < dholbach> czajkowski: your interviews were great :) 18:07 < czajkowski> I intend to find out more about that seeing as tbh I'm rather i the dark there about it 18:07 * dholbach does not have more to report on action items 18:08 < czajkowski> * UDS - Blueprints 18:08 < czajkowski> Andrew Starr-Bochicchio created one https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-lucid-ngo 18:08 < czajkowski> and I hope we can build on it 18:09 < dholbach> did Mr Bacon schedule it? 18:09 < dholbach> also we should announce on the list when that session is going to be, so we get maximum remote participation 18:09 < czajkowski> dholbach: think so... he said he was doing it earlier on in the channel 18:09 < czajkowski> nods 18:09 < czajkowski> adn then go find the server team 18:09 < dholbach> ACTION: Daniel to send mail with NGO UDS Session time and date 18:09 < czajkowski> as some of the issues coming up maybe they could help with 18:10 < dholbach> definitely 18:10 < czajkowski> I was thinking of something along the lines of a papercut exercise 18:10 < czajkowski> there isn't 100 of them 18:10 * skellat scratches head and wonders if there is an initial whip count of who is attending UDS-L 18:10 < czajkowski> but some of the stuff we could work on that 18:10 * czajkowski shall be attending UDS 18:10 * andylockran won't be 18:10 < czajkowski> as is popey dholbach 18:10 < czajkowski> and Paolo is also 18:11 < dholbach> nice 18:11 < skellat> I've got a temp contract so I won't be leaving Ohio any time soon, alas 18:11 < dholbach> asomething too 18:11 < czajkowski> andylockran: you've added some thoughts on the Agenda here, would you like to discuss them and how we can work on them for UDS 18:13 < czajkowski> so one of andylockran comments was From Karmic to Lucid: What are NGO-specific papercuts that we can identify for action this cycle? 18:13 < dholbach> (also I'm sure we'll attract a bunch more future Ubuntu NGO team members at UDS :-)) 18:13 < czajkowski> and I know jono and co are working on roadmaps 18:13 < czajkowski> so I think it would be good to use this for us and possible give some structure to the group 18:13 < skellat> I forgot to sign a couple of those. Advocacy was Andy's. The others were mine. 18:14 < andylockran> czajkowski: yeah, my thoughts are with advocacy 18:14 < czajkowski> skellat: ahh thanks wasn't sure 18:14 < andylockran> and how to shape it as NGO 18:14 < czajkowski> skellat: well fire away and discuss so 18:15 < skellat> As noted on the agenda, a few things might help in the work. First is a slogan (one sentence) that sums up what Ubuntu NGO does so others understand. Second is collecting the interviews into an offline-friendly form so people can read them. I' 18:15 < skellat> I'm 28 and have trouble curling up to read e-material lately while books still work nicely. 18:16 < skellat> It may be just me but interview collections are easier to read in print than on-screen. 18:16 < czajkowski> skellat: any idea as to what the slogan could be ? nice idea 18:16 < skellat> Ubuntu NGO: Helping Integrate Freedom 18:16 < highvoltage> that sounds a bit cliche imho, but I can't think of something better right now so I won't judge :) 18:17 < AlanBell> I think it might include the word "charity" "volunteer" or "third sector" as I had to google to find out what an NGO was 18:17 < czajkowski> well yes in USA NGO doesnt exist, they are non profits 18:17 < Pendulum> voluteer is the best of those 3 words IMO 18:17 < dholbach> Ubuntu NGO Team, helping others to help. 18:17 < czajkowski> and in euope they are mostly ngos 18:17 < skellat> The reason I went with integrating freedom in the initial was that NGOs are freedom crusaders at times themselves and we spread the idea of software freedom. 18:18 < Pendulum> Ubuntu NGO: Helping Your Charity Donations Go Towards What's Really Needed ? 18:18 < highvoltage> dholbach: that's quite nice 18:18 < jdardon> in latam ngo is not always charity or donations is more like social consultants 18:19 < dholbach_> if only I had had some of AlanBell's wine, I'd be a bit more creative :) 18:19 < jdardon> execution of social projects, development in poor areas etc.. 18:19 * AlanBell passes dholbach_ a glass 18:19 -!- dholbach_ is now known as dholbach 18:20 < skellat> As I intended placing this on the agenda, it makes it easier for others to understand us if we had a slogan they can start with. It also helps show how we understand what we are doing ourselves. 18:20 < andylockran> I think my advocacy bit fits in here - in that Ubuntu NGO is inheritently different from ubuntu advocacy. 18:20 < czajkowski> true as I just had a nice pm saying that they have looked at the site and were a bit confused as to the role of us, so a slogan and an explaination would help 18:21 < skellat> andylockran: Agreed. I was going to edit the page to move the items closer. 18:21 < andylockran> I think we're reactive and providing a voice to the ubuntu community for NGOs, rather than providing a voice from teh ubuntu community to NGOs 18:21 < andylockran> if you get my drift? 18:21 < czajkowski> andylockran: I like it 18:22 < highvoltage> heh, anything I can think of sounds too lame to me (probably because I've seen so many ngo catch phrases and slogans before) 18:22 < Pendulum> andylockran: I think that makes a lot of sense 18:22 < skellat> Ubuntu NGO: Taking Software Freedom From Theory To Practice 18:23 < dholbach> maybe we can do a call for slogans via our blog? :) 18:23 < Pendulum> skellat: I like that a lot, actually 18:23 < highvoltage> that's not very ngo-specific though, the same could be said for commercial deployments (not that I want to nitpic) 18:23 * dholbach has been in naming/slogan meetings a lot already :) 18:23 < czajkowski> highvoltage: never :p 18:23 < czajkowski> skellat: nice 18:23 < dholbach> if you want to continue brainstorming that's totally cool with me though :) 18:24 < skellat> highvoltage: Don't worry. I'm just throwing ideas out. 18:24 < Pendulum> what about taking "software" out of it? 18:24 < Pendulum> so it's Ubuntu NGO: Taking Freedom From Theory To Practice 18:24 < highvoltage> I guess a description would already help a lot, but a nice slogan would be very cool for the elevator-type people who casually notices it somewhere 18:24 < skellat> Pendulum: That comes down to a question of what we do. Do we do service projects or do we tinker with software bits on the back-end. 18:25 < jdardon> we should start making a list of words that are related to the term NGO and part from there ? 18:25 < czajkowski> skellat: I think removeing software makes it more open and welcoming to get folks invovled 18:25 < issyl0> Hi all 18:25 < dholbach> hi issyl0 18:26 < skellat> czajkowski: That's fine, but we're working under the aegis of what is a software project. 18:26 < czajkowski> true 18:26 < highvoltage> lately I've noticed some people dismissing things as fundamentalist when you use terms like "freedom" or "free software" in slogans, etc. 18:26 < czajkowski> perhaps we should write these up on the blog and ask the mailing list/planet to help suggest a slogan ? 18:27 < highvoltage> (nm, forget I said that even) 18:27 < skellat> czajkowski: Agreed 18:27 < highvoltage> czajkowski: wider input would be nice 18:27 < dholbach> and discuss at the next meeting 18:27 < dholbach> that'd give us enough time for everything 18:27 < skellat> highvoltage: Actually...you raise a rather good point. I haven't figured out where the whole "fundamentalist" meme started but that would like to a Princess Bride quote... 18:27 < dholbach> re-blogging and re-microblogging the call for ideas would be nice 18:27 < Pendulum> Maybe come up with a good description before we ask for slogans? 18:28 < dholbach> of what the team is about? 18:28 < andylockran> sorry, reboot 18:28 < czajkowski> Pendulum: issyl0 you're both new, what are your 1st impressions of the ngo group, 18:28 < Pendulum> (especially if we're asking for outside help) 18:28 < Pendulum> yeah 18:28 < czajkowski> what it does or meant to do ? 18:28 < issyl0> I saw czajkowski's tweet about the meeting and didn't know what the ubuntu NGO was, so I looked it up, and found the website was very confusing and didn't explain clearly enough what the NGO team. Maybe simple.wp.org/wiki/NGO would have helped, instead of the longwinded enwp one... and I did read all the pages on the site, so re: the agenda question is there really understanding of what the ngo team does outside the ng 18:29 < skellat> Well, list the activities we're carrying out so far. We do packaging. We're slowly starting to look for NGO-specific papercuts. What else do we do? 18:29 < Pendulum> czajkowski: I'm not a good person to ask because my knowledge comes directly from you and not from the site. Mostly came along because NGOs and philosophies I picked up while active in those are a lot of why I'm interested in Ubuntu :) 18:30 < czajkowski> we are a resource lately for ngos to ask for help and advice 18:30 < issyl0> Er.. first impressions of the group.. confusing, didn't really (and still don't) understand what it's about :) 18:30 < andylockran> I think that's fair, given that the group is still very much in development 18:30 < jdardon> help NGO's to cut the digital breach ?? 18:31 < issyl0> andylockran, ah right 18:31 < dholbach> "The aim of the Ubuntu NGO team is to make it as easy as possible to make use of Ubuntu in charities, non-profits and NGOs and benefit from the best free software has to offer." or something? 18:31 < dholbach> I'm sure that 3-4 sentences should be fine :) 18:31 < andylockran> The main role so far has been packaging software that has been cited by NGO affiliates. 18:31 < czajkowski> dholbach: yes thats much simplier and easier to understant 18:31 < Pendulum> That's a good first sentence 18:31 < czajkowski> *understand 18:31 < skellat> dholbach: That works. 18:31 < issyl0> dholbach, yeah that's good. :) 18:31 < andylockran> yeah, I like that 18:31 < dholbach> that took all my remaining brain power 18:31 < dholbach> thanks guys :) 18:32 < issyl0> Hehe 18:32 < jdardon> ;) 18:32 < Pendulum> a couple sentences fleshing out how we do it is probably what's needed to flesh it out to a proper description 18:32 < skellat> dholbach: Better now than on a stage somewhere in front of people having to think that up 18:32 < andylockran> Yeah, I reckon that needs a wiki :) 18:32 * andylockran would volunteer but currently in CLI mode 18:33 < dholbach> ok, who's going to work on that "call for slogans" blog post? 18:33 * skellat could do so later today 18:33 < czajkowski> who would like to updat the wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NGO with what dholbach said and fleshing it out with what we do, in a nice easy to read manner? 18:33 < czajkowski> I'll do the call for slogans post this evneing on the NGO blog 18:33 * skellat could combine such with the other writing bit 18:33 < dholbach> that would also get back some action on http://ubuntungo.wordpress.com/ :-) 18:33 < Pendulum> If someone gives me bullet points other than "we make pachages", I can do it this evening :) 18:33 < andylockran> czajkowski: I'll flesh it out if someone can stick the first bit up :) 18:34 < czajkowski> Pendulum: andylockran can ye work to flesh it out so ? 18:34 < czajkowski> please 18:34 < czajkowski> and I'll send ye cookies!! 18:34 < highvoltage> dholbach: that kind of fits in with the usual ubuntu project definitions as well :) 18:34 < czajkowski> andylockran: in you case I'll send you a working lock 18:34 < andylockran> hehe, no worries :) 18:34 < issyl0> Heh 18:34 < andylockran> Pendulum: sounds good. 18:34 < dholbach> Pendulum: we're interested in 1) documenting free software best-practices for NGOs, 2) making offline media easier, 3) packaging NGO-specific apps, 4) talk about how NGOs using Ubuntu make the world better, 5) ... ? 18:34 < czajkowski> dholbach: I'll update the ngo blog 18:34 < andylockran> Pendulum: you put up some ideas and I'll develop them in the morning. 18:35 < andylockran> or just follow dholbach's lead :) 18:36 < dholbach> 5 should probably be something with "areas without internet" 18:36 < dholbach> unfortunately we never figured out what we want to do there :) 18:36 < andylockran> dholbach: regarding point 4 - do you think it's best to have those methods of communication kept within the ubuntu framework (i.e. wiki, blog, planet .etc) what other ubuntu projects already do.. or do you think we need to adjust and have some kind of NGO outreach plan. 18:36 < andylockran> dholbach: areas without internet.. I've come across just that project :) 18:36 < Pendulum> something about helping NGOs who want to incorporate free software to begin? 18:36 < czajkowski> well if ngos could use launchpad to track issues I'd like to see that 18:37 < skellat> andylockran: Since the Ubuntu realm is different from that occupied by NGOs, I'd say liaison links would be needed at least to start 18:37 < andylockran> should I go into it now, or create a wiki citing the scenario 18:37 < dholbach> andylockran: up until now czajkowski and xdatap01 (or whatever Paolo's nick is) worked on NGO stories, where they did a great job of interviewing NGOs using Ubuntu 18:37 < highvoltage> dholbach: we had some ideas last time round, I just didn't even have a moment the last 6 months to really do anything about it 18:37 < dholbach> czajkowski: yes 18:37 < andylockran> yeah, I really like the interview stuff 18:37 < czajkowski> andylockran: need to get to yours before UDS 18:37 < czajkowski> need time and no irc distractions 18:38 < andylockran> so is it a case of continuing them, and making it more sustainable by using other volunteers to help czajkowski out. 18:38 < andylockran> czajkowski: sure. 18:38 < czajkowski> well actually I need ngos to interview 18:38 < dholbach> I guess we're all open to new suggestions 18:38 < czajkowski> even if they dont use ubuntu but use oss we want to hear about it 18:38 < dholbach> but for the future I think it's good if we have sort-of-owners for projects :) 18:38 < andylockran> czajkowski: do they even need to be using OSS ? 18:39 < czajkowski> andylockran: well yes as I want to then show ngos who dont how they can 18:39 < skellat> andylockran: It would useful to know why they DON'T use it...we might never have seen the reasons otherwise 18:39 < czajkowski> and yes there are issues 18:39 < Pendulum> czajkowski: have you interviewed my mate? (have to admit I'm behind on reading your interviews) 18:39 < czajkowski> skellat: I also list the issues they find 18:39 < czajkowski> server documetnation 18:39 < czajkowski> accounting 18:39 < czajkowski> quickbooks 18:39 < czajkowski> change over from system, training, etc 18:40 < czajkowski> have all been documented and dinda was very helpful with training advice 18:40 < andylockran> yeah, the interviews were an eye opener for me 18:40 < czajkowski> Pendulum: anna asked for advice on how to "Switch over" some of her systems 18:40 < czajkowski> so I'd love to interview her before she starts and then afterwards and see how she got on 18:40 < dholbach> maybe regarding the ngo related bugs we could use a bug tag, so we could keep track of them (without having to subscribe to the lot of them and spam the list) 18:40 < highvoltage> czajkowski: with the interviews, have you gotten an idea of the biggest problems that they face? 18:40 < Pendulum> czajkowski: I was just thinking that :) 18:40 < skellat> Excellent. The reason I threw in the bit on training was I thought I saw something Martin Pitts was working on that we would want to ensure we weren't at cross-purposes on relative to training. 18:41 < andylockran> highvoltage: see 18:39 18:41 < czajkowski> tonight I will copy all of the NGO interviews on my blog over to the NGO 18:41 < czajkowski> to have them in one place, but you'll see from the comments on mine there are issues www.lczajkowski.com 18:42 < andylockran> seems like we're making progress on the direction we want to go in, and the means in which we expect to acheive that 18:42 < jdardon> czajkowski: i have worked on a couple of NGO's here in Guatemala. so if you need anything 18:42 < czajkowski> jdardon: yes! I'd like to talk to them :D 18:43 < czajkowski> I think with this meeting wwhich is why I wanted it before UDS together with the blueprint we cn work on a road map for the team 18:43 < andylockran> I guess the next phase is consolidating that, and having a pitch for UDS, which is essentially going to be.. if you're an NGO, we need to talk with you.. we need to know what you like and don't like about what you currently use, and here's what we can offer now. 18:43 < czajkowski> and in the next 6 months really make some progress 18:43 < czajkowski> jdardon: if you want you can email me details email@example.com 18:44 < skellat> A question then arises: How ambitious do we want to be during the cycle from K to L? 18:44 < Pendulum> czajkowski: if you end up getting overloaded with NGOs and need someone else to interview as well, I'd be happy to help out :) 18:44 < jdardon> czajkowski: ok, im thinking , if you passed me the questions, I can contact them and gather all the info for you 18:44 < czajkowski> skellat: I like projects, and this is my main one at present so I'm just jumping in and finding stuff to do :D 18:44 < dholbach> skellat: as I said before, I think we should try having owners of projects within the team for this cycle :) 18:44 < czajkowski> Pendulum: yes tghat would be awesome!!!!! 18:44 < czajkowski> dholbach: great idea 18:45 < czajkowski> jdardon: great can you just email me a blank email so I can reply please 18:45 < dholbach> who should at least be responsible to keep track of what's happening and inviting others in to help with small tasks within that project 18:45 < czajkowski> nods 18:45 < andylockran> skellat: I think the ambition is to get some established NGOs looking at alternative software, and being the guides helping them through. 18:46 < jdardon> czajkowski: done it 18:46 < skellat> andylockran: Ah. My main worry was just to ensure any goals we set are realistic within the time we've got. That's all. 18:46 < andylockran> I guess there are already commercial entities doing migrations, on behalf of some NGOs - and we need to somehow try and integrate those too, without compromising the profitable nature for the consulting company. 18:47 < czajkowski> skellat: I think this next 6 months we;ll have a better guideline of where we want to be and achieve, the last 6 months were great, but we're new and can expand and work on it 18:47 < andylockran> But yeah, the first step is finding out from NGOs what would benefit them, then trying to get that into ubuntu.. 18:47 < czajkowski> nods 18:48 < andylockran> I'm in quite a nice place, being an ubuntu advocate in an NGO - but one problem I see is despite my enthusiasm, I was unable to volunteer our NGO for the whole accounting sandbox that AlanBell was going to setup. 18:48 < czajkowski> why not? 18:49 < andylockran> the decision doesn't rest on me. 18:49 < andylockran> I asked to take on responsibility for the accounting and it was denied to me. 18:49 < czajkowski> well UI guess that could happen in any organisation 18:50 < andylockran> but that would have been a fantastic opportunity to use AlanBell's approach. 18:50 < czajkowski> nods 18:50 < czajkowski> I may blog that 18:50 < AlanBell> jurisdiction is important for accounting 18:50 < czajkowski> speak of the devil :p 18:51 < czajkowski> ha anyone got any furhter comments to make for the team at UDS 18:51 < czajkowski> dholbach: will mail once we have a confirmed date and time and tell you what room we're in so folks can join the channel for remote participation 18:51 < dholbach> with the announce of the sesion time, I'll add a call for more topics 18:51 < skellat> czajkowski: Set a deadline so that the slogan can debut in Texas? 18:52 < dholbach> I personally would try to leave a bit more time for responses, but I don't want to be a blocker on the decision 18:52 < andylockran> Yeah, so it's integral to our success that the top of the organisation sees the potential of such development... however, the hardest part is that much of the inconvenience and time will be spent by a few for the benefit of the many. Whilst that's something I love (being an OSS advocate), I can also understand from a traditional charity accountant perspective why investing such time isn't necessarily beneficial directly to the charity. 18:52 < highvoltage> czajkowski: I think it's great that so many people are interested in ubuntu-ngo, besides that I've been too sleep-deprived the last two weeks to be able to add something incredibly constructive :) 18:52 < skellat> dholbach: I'll go with that. 18:52 < jdardon> czajkowski: what im seeing , is the need of a diagnostic of IT on NGO's, we can work on it, then execute on several NGO's and have a better vision of the actual needs 18:53 < dholbach> highvoltage: we have 100 people in the LP team now 18:54 < czajkowski> skellat: so blog post today and debut slogan ont he day of the UDS meeting???? 18:54 < highvoltage> dholbach: nice :) 18:54 < andylockran> kewl.. next item :) 18:55 < czajkowski> also re last meeting was "kutukepik: how to write the wiki for ngo area " done??? 18:55 < czajkowski> or am I going blind as a bat ? 18:55 < andylockran> I'm guessing kutukepik ain't here :) 18:55 < skellat> czajkowski: Good point. I mixed up my dates. 18:56 < czajkowski> ok so to recap 18:56 < mhall119|work> what accounting stuff are you guys talking about? 18:56 < Pendulum> czajkowski: there does seem to be a wiki for the NGO team so I assume it's at least partially done 18:56 < czajkowski> dholbach: will find out date and time 18:56 < dholbach> yep 18:56 < czajkowski> andylockran: and Pendulum will work on What we do for the wiki 18:56 < czajkowski> I'll blog post and find us a slogan 18:56 < czajkowski> jdardon: is going to mail me so we can get the interviews back up and running 18:56 < czajkowski> I'm to poke andylockran re interview 18:57 < czajkowski> Pendulum: aye 18:57 < dholbach> nice 18:57 < czajkowski> have I missed anyting? 18:57 < andylockran> sounds good 18:57 < dholbach> that sounds like a great start 18:57 < czajkowski> doing the mins also at present 18:57 < czajkowski> if anyone has any furhter thoughts re UDS please do let us know! 18:58 < dholbach> I'm glad all you guys are part of this 18:58 < andylockran> only comment I'd make is that the functional ROI of a questionnaire and a phone'd interview are pretty much similar 18:58 < czajkowski> andylockran: eh? 18:58 < andylockran> however, it's integral that we do the phone /live interviews to be able to react to what the people are saying, and build a relationship 18:59 < czajkowski> ahhh ok 18:59 < andylockran> sorry, should explain my train of thought. 18:59 < czajkowski> Right if that's it folks, thanks for coming and I'll post this to the mailing list once I've it written up!! 18:59 < czajkowski> Kudos for taking part!! 18:59 * dholbach hugs y'all 18:59 < dholbach> thanks czajkowski! 18:59 < dholbach> thanks all! 18:59 < czajkowski> dholbach: you're already speaking texas! :)