Ubuntu Wiki

START MEETING
(09:03:28 PM) Vorian: let's get this show on the road
(09:03:32 PM) Vorian: who's here?
(09:03:35 PM) boredandblogging: Vorian: is there an agenda? I'm blind
(09:03:38 PM) ***boredandblogging raises hand
(09:03:53 PM) Vorian: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/USTeams/MeetingAgenda
(09:04:06 PM) H264: what channel is this in?
(09:04:08 PM) Vorian: (with other topics sprinkled in)
(09:04:10 PM) Vorian: this one
(09:04:19 PM) Vorian: !nicks
(09:04:20 PM) ubotu: Sorry, I don't know anything about nicks - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
(09:04:24 PM) Vorian: @nicks
(09:04:52 PM) H264: wait! I need to add something!
(09:05:00 PM) H264: (just kidding)
(09:05:13 PM) dthacker: do we have mootbot?
(09:05:24 PM) Vorian: nay
(09:05:39 PM) leftyfb: shouldn't atoponce and Joe_CoT be here since they were strong parties to the topics at hand?
(09:06:02 PM) boredandblogging: atoponce: ping
(09:06:05 PM) boredandblogging: Joe_CoT: ping
(09:06:07 PM) The-Kernel [n=thomas@dialup-4.246.221.181.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net] entered the room.
(09:06:07 PM) boredandblogging: wake up!
(09:06:09 PM) dthacker: I think Joe_CoT had a conflict. but don't quote me on that
(09:06:14 PM) ridgid [n=ridgid@h189.107.88.75.ip.alltel.net] entered the room.
(09:06:15 PM) claydoh [n=claydoh@66-252-52-203.dyn-adsl.midmaine.net] entered the room.
(09:06:25 PM) Vorian: "<dthacker> I think Joe_CoT had a conflict"
(09:06:47 PM) H264: heh
(09:06:54 PM) dthacker: I deserved that..... :)
(09:06:59 PM) Vorian: :D
(09:07:14 PM) H264: so, dthacker, did you look at those labels?
(09:07:21 PM) jimmacdonald [n=jim@138-212-223-66.gci.net] entered the room.
(09:07:25 PM) dthacker: 60% dl H264
(09:07:29 PM) H264: ah
(09:07:30 PM) Vorian: doctormo is here, and he had the first set of topics.
(09:07:48 PM) lousygarua: yup
(09:08:03 PM) ***Vorian thinks of a way to attract everyones attention
(09:08:19 PM) Vorian: without getting k-lined
(09:08:27 PM) H264: !big text :)
(09:08:29 PM) ubotu: Sorry, I don't know anything about big text :) - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
(09:08:34 PM) lousygarua: !jump around naked
(09:08:35 PM) doctormo: The meeting will be one sided without Joe_CoT and atoponce
(09:09:32 PM) Vorian: hmm
(09:10:07 PM) lousygarua: doctormo: what du mean by one-sided?
(09:10:15 PM) lousygarua: i don't know english
(09:11:12 PM) djennewe [n=djennewe@65-102-94-57.sxfl.qwest.net] entered the room.
(09:11:26 PM) Vorian: doctormo, I think we can get the discussion going at least
(09:12:11 PM) lousygarua: yup, 1 UTC is 1 UTC we shouldn't be late on schedule
(09:13:32 PM) doctormo: ok as you wish
(09:13:36 PM) Vorian: doctormo, what are your thoughts on the first topic?
(09:13:45 PM) Vorian: The form and way in which warnings are given out without a right to object or specific information.
(09:14:47 PM) doctormo: When someone in the group does something wrong there _must_ be a transparent and balanced processes for dealing with the problem. there must also be a right to apeal and to be heard.
(09:14:49 PM) lousygarua: warning about what?
(09:14:52 PM) zackboarman [n=root@host-65-80-116-152.owb.bellsouth.net] entered the room.
(09:15:07 PM) doctormo: I propose the following measures
(09:15:33 PM) lousygarua: doctormo: give example of smt wrong plz
(09:15:43 PM) Vorian: in a pm please
(09:15:45 PM) Vorian: :)
(09:15:53 PM) doctormo: lousygarua: you horribly murder the chair of a meeting
(09:16:09 PM) Vorian: lol
(09:16:14 PM) lousygarua: ok, what r ur measures then?
(09:16:51 PM) doctormo: 1) That all discussions about any and all problems be made on a public chatroom, mailing list or logged service.
(09:17:34 PM) doctormo: 2) That the person or organisation be formally invited to hear the objections though above medium.
(09:18:30 PM) doctormo: 3) That after each member of the meeting has had his say on the issue the person or org is invited to either appologies and to assert recopence or be heard in counter objection.
(09:19:23 PM) doctormo: 4) That the members agree on the course of action and solid reasons are given and recored for the action.
(09:19:27 PM) doctormo: end
(09:20:05 PM) Vorian: k
(09:20:20 PM) lousygarua: doctormo: ok so that's you ubuntu-way of solving murders
(09:20:52 PM) Vorian: can you be more specific about #1? It may be a bit easier for some to comprehend the others.
(09:21:05 PM) ***atoponce shows up a bit late
(09:21:18 PM) lousygarua: I guess it's just so the 'trial will get logged and
(09:21:19 PM) Vorian: or rather
(09:21:24 PM) atoponce: sorry for my tardiness
(09:21:30 PM) Vorian: np atoponce
(09:21:31 PM) ***atoponce reads the backlock
(09:21:33 PM) Vorian: welcome :)
(09:21:36 PM) Vorian: I have a couple of thoughts here...
(09:21:58 PM) Vorian: before we roll out the entire agenda
(09:22:06 PM) Vorian: The US Teams Mentor project is just that, a mentoring project.  This team is not a governing body.
(09:22:36 PM) Vorian: The team was designed to do a few basic things
(09:22:45 PM) Vorian: 1) Mentor New or Struggling teams
(09:23:17 PM) Vorian: 2) Be a resource to bounce ideas around (more people, more diversity, more ideas)
(09:24:05 PM) Vorian: there once existed an #ubuntu-us-mentors channel
(09:24:22 PM) Vorian: this has been dropped for a month or more
(09:24:48 PM) lousygarua: Vorian: u from ubuntu-us?
(09:24:54 PM) Vorian: the idea behind it was to keep chatter (and my silliness) out of the main channel
(09:24:59 PM) doctormo: Any organisation, even a light one must be mindful of the way it conducts it's business when dealing with problems with public members.
(09:25:13 PM) Vorian: sure
(09:25:22 PM) doctormo: We might not need to be strict, but we absolutly need to be open, honest and accountable.
(09:25:24 PM) lousygarua: doctormo: i liked ur points, they were reasonable and juicy
(09:26:40 PM) Vorian: agreed
(09:27:10 PM) Vorian: but it is important to point out that we do not set policy for the LoCo project as a whole
(09:28:04 PM) lousygarua: each loco team has its own private policies, all in the spirit of ubuntu though
(09:28:09 PM) Vorian: As of the last CC meeting, the CC has agreed that the LoCo project should have a council to handle such things as were discussed last month
(09:28:12 PM) lousygarua: you can't enforce them to one thing or another :)
(09:28:12 PM) BaD_CrC left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(09:28:49 PM) Vorian: we are all accountable to follow the precepts of the CoC
(09:29:16 PM) etank: that is if we have all signed the CoC
(09:29:25 PM) etank: which we should
(09:29:26 PM) Vorian: true :)
(09:29:39 PM) doctormo: Vorian: it may be that the methods developed for the LoCoC would be the suggested methods for LoCo's themselves.
(09:30:04 PM) doctormo: I intend to adopt similar proposals for our team mailing list and irc channel
(09:31:09 PM) Vorian: It wasn't my intention to deflect your concern doctormo, I just wanted to start off with a bit of clarification.  :)
(09:31:19 PM) lousygarua: is there a wiki page for best-practise loco managing/directoring/how u call u it
(09:31:37 PM) lousygarua: where things like doctormo suggested are centralized?
(09:31:47 PM) Vorian: lousygarua, yes
(09:31:50 PM) Vorian: $loco
(09:31:51 PM) UncleSam: "loco" : Information on Ubuntu LoCo Teams can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams
(09:31:56 PM) Namer_Katan32 [i=qa@gateway/tor/x-987ee58e28a46b3b] entered the room.
(09:32:29 PM) etank: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto is good too
(09:33:08 PM) doctormo: So a page dedicated to conflict resolution, the methods and guides to be decided by whom ever is in the LoCoC
(09:33:10 PM) reliantfc3 [n=merinda@cpe-065-191-043-252.nc.res.rr.com] entered the room.
(09:33:22 PM) lousygarua: etank: thx
(09:33:39 PM) heathen [n=heathen@unaffiliated/heathen] entered the room.
(09:33:40 PM) Vorian: doctormo, that is how it works with existing councils
(09:34:02 PM) Vorian: ie: Fourm Council, IRC council, Community Council
(09:34:15 PM) heathen: hello
(09:34:25 PM) Vorian: most community council conflicts are handled behind the scenes
(09:34:32 PM) Vorian: howdy heathen
(09:35:14 PM) etank: even during CC meetings some things are handled with PMs
(09:36:29 PM) doctormo: If the conflict is handled between the two parties who have the conflict then it is at their discresion.
(09:36:58 PM) doctormo: If the conflict is being out sourced between two members other than the one it is against then there is a problem
(09:38:18 PM) Vorian: It is always best if two parties can come to a resolution without getting others involved
(09:38:32 PM) doctormo: Vorian: agreed
(09:39:06 PM) doctormo: I just want to make it clear that judge and jurry executions behind closed doors are a very bad thing
(09:39:23 PM) Vorian: doctormo, there are no longer closed doors
(09:39:38 PM) Vorian: and
(09:39:42 PM) lousygarua: yeah it's not like we're judging national-security-spies or smt
(09:40:08 PM) Vorian: the LoCo council meetings will be open for any and all according to the LoCo governance document
(09:41:19 PM) Vorian: I think when it comes to governance, your method could be very effective.
(09:41:27 PM) doctormo: OK, then I should not expect the kind of treatment I got last month on the mailing list right?
(09:42:29 PM) atoponce: doctormo: i think there should be no question as to why i handled the situation the way i did
(09:43:48 PM) doctormo: atoponce: This is not a question of why, this is a question about weather it was the right way to do it.
(09:44:28 PM) atoponce: is there any question about this? honestly, look at the tone of your email. Zelut certainly didn't deserve it, and it was out of line
(09:45:10 PM) doctormo: atoponce: that is not at issue here, this is not a hearing about the topic in question. we are talking about the handeling of such events.
(09:45:38 PM) Vorian: doctormo, that would be completely up to the admins of the mailing list
(09:46:01 PM) atoponce: you just said that you shouldn't expect the "treatment" that you got on the mailing list last month. i'm saying that the way i handled it was professional and totally in line
(09:46:07 PM) etank: sounds like a "golden rule" kind of thing to me
(09:46:21 PM) etank: treat everyone the way that you expect / want to be treated
(09:46:34 PM) doctormo: The admins of any mailing list have a duty to both protect and act in the best interest of their groups. as they are acting on behalf of a group of people such events should be both public and include the measures above.
(09:46:58 PM) doctormo: atoponce: I disagree and you have yet to counter directly my arguments
(09:47:21 PM) Vorian: repremands don't happen in public, that would not be the right way to handle an already inflamed situation.
(09:47:26 PM) nomasteryoda [n=nomaster@ip68-225-112-12.mc.at.cox.net] entered the room.
(09:47:29 PM) atoponce: what arguments? you have yet to apologize to Zelut, or anyone else on the list for the tone and nature of your email
(09:47:42 PM) atoponce: i didn't repremand you on list
(09:48:18 PM) atoponce: i warned you that i considered the email trolling, and that it would not be tolerated
(09:48:19 PM) lousygarua: i'm sorry but not all are familiar with the issue with atoponce
(09:48:27 PM) atoponce: it was a warning, and you left the list at your own accord
(09:48:30 PM) doctormo: atoponce: again that topic is not at issue here, if you would like to talk about that issue could you add it to the agenda
(09:48:52 PM) Vorian: please
(09:48:58 PM) Vorian: let's not do this
(09:48:58 PM) atoponce: i'm confused then. what is the issue?
(09:49:14 PM) Vorian: doctormo what specifically do you want us to do?
(09:50:16 PM) doctormo: any "reprimand" that is not a warning on the side (and trust me atoponce your warning was not friendly or on the side) to be made both public and for the party to have a form of appeal
(09:50:47 PM) atoponce: i warned you
(09:50:52 PM) Vorian: how can you appeal a warning?
(09:50:55 PM) atoponce: and it was on the side
(09:50:56 PM) Vorian: no action was taken
(09:50:57 PM) atoponce: off list
(09:51:31 PM) doctormo: atoponce: perhaps you need to just include friendly.h
(09:51:47 PM) atoponce: i do? should we paste the text of your email?
(09:52:35 PM) doctormo: atoponce: an on side warning is considered a friendly reminder that it is considered by that person and no one else that there are issues. atoponce  warning was neither friendly or on his own behalf.
(09:53:14 PM) atoponce: what? it wasn't on my behalf? huh/
(09:53:16 PM) atoponce: ?
(09:53:30 PM) atoponce: i sent the email to you. me. no one else
(09:54:00 PM) doctormo: atoponce: the warning you gave me was on the behalf of the list, with a threat of administration privilages being used against me for non complience.
(09:54:00 PM) Vorian: is that really what this is about?
(09:54:22 PM) dantalizing_ [n=dan@wsip-70-184-147-28.ga.at.cox.net] entered the room.
(09:54:23 PM) heathen: ok, seriously, can this be aired out somewhere else?
(09:54:47 PM) lousygarua: yeah i go with heathen :)
(09:54:50 PM) ridgid: *agrees with heathen*
(09:54:50 PM) lousygarua: it's kinda offtopic
(09:55:00 PM) ***Flannel thought that was the original topic.
(09:55:04 PM) Jacob left the room (quit: "later").
(09:55:07 PM) Vorian: If so, doctormo I recomend that you take this issue up with the individual(s) in another way
(09:55:17 PM) etank: actually i think that this is what the whole thing is about
(09:55:18 PM) atoponce: heathen: it sure can. this meeting *should* be about liability coverage and tax exemption
(09:55:33 PM) etank: +1 atoponce
(09:55:45 PM) heathen: i'm not trying to be an ass (it comes naturally) I'm just saying, I'm not sure *this* is the point of what we should be discussing.
(09:55:46 PM) Vorian: I am willing to moderate a discussion if both parties agree
(09:56:04 PM) atoponce: let's move on
(09:56:15 PM) doctormo: I would like to stick to the items on the agenda, I think I have my answer: atoponce and the admins of the list are not accoutnable and the ubuntu lists are not religable for community participation
(09:56:44 PM) heathen: doctormo: why the backhanded comment?
(09:56:44 PM) doctormo: +1 Vorian
(09:56:54 PM) heathen: do you really need to have the last word?
(09:56:55 PM) etank: +1 heathen
(09:56:58 PM) Vorian: doctormo, atoponce and myself are the admins of the us mailing list
(09:57:33 PM) etank: the ubuntu lists seem to be working well for everyone else
(09:57:56 PM) atoponce: and they're working fine for us. we've had 1 incident, and it was handled fine
(09:58:05 PM) atoponce: let's move on
(09:58:11 PM) doctormo: lets
(09:58:12 PM) heathen: *ANYHOW* Agenda item 1
(09:58:27 PM) Vorian: heathen, that was item 1
(09:58:31 PM) Vorian: ok
(09:58:33 PM) Vorian: next item
(09:58:35 PM) Vorian: The limiting of activities to avoid legal and financial responsibilities.
(09:58:41 PM) heathen: lol
(09:58:44 PM) heathen: ok 22
(09:58:45 PM) heathen: 2
(09:58:47 PM) heathen: i quit
(09:58:52 PM) leftyfb: limiting?
(09:59:10 PM) leftyfb: there's talk of limiting the activities LoCo's choose to take part in based on them spending money?
(09:59:12 PM) etank: what does that topic entail?
(10:00:13 PM) atoponce: i have no problem with a team seeking financial support, and i'll help then every way i can to get that support
(10:00:14 PM) Vorian: this is the source of the conflict discussed in agenda item #1
(10:00:32 PM) lousygarua: item #2 is how to do financial stuff with our teams, what is legal or not
(10:00:37 PM) atoponce: money can help with a lot of things, but it certainly isn't required, i think
(10:01:32 PM) etank: i tend to think that dealing with money is something that each team needs to decide how to do on their own so that it is taylored to their team
(10:01:44 PM) atoponce: +1 +1 +1
(10:01:48 PM) doctormo: Money isn't required to run a club of users; but it's absolutly required for an active LoCo; most of this money currently comes from the pockets of the members and mostly the leaders.
(10:02:00 PM) etank: but it would be good to have a guide as a starting point it said team is interested in dealing with it
(10:02:19 PM) Vorian: etank, was our (ohio team) shizzle fantastic at OLF?
(10:02:24 PM) lousygarua: I'd like to have a guide to show people on what they can donate to
(10:02:35 PM) etank: Vorian: oh heck yeah it was
(10:02:38 PM) Vorian: guess how much we spent?
(10:02:39 PM) lousygarua: i mean, they can donate MY loco team, or donate Canonical or the ubuntu foundation i dunno the bodies
(10:02:51 PM) Vorian: $0
(10:03:16 PM) doctormo: Vorian: now I know that's a lie, you sent me money for the case badges
(10:03:21 PM) greg-g: where did that cool 5'x7' Ubuntu banner come from?
(10:03:30 PM) Vorian: doctormo, I made that money back in 30 minutes
(10:03:31 PM) etank: it just will take a little leg work from the memebers of the teams
(10:03:41 PM) dantalizing_ left the room (quit: "Ex-Chat").
(10:03:46 PM) doctormo: Vorian: money flowed
(10:03:52 PM) atoponce: doctormo: i don't think money is required for an active loco. we've been active for more than 2 years, and have always found free meeting places and activities
(10:03:54 PM) Vorian: doctormo, and we really didn't need those
(10:04:01 PM) Vorian: It was icing on the cake :)
(10:04:01 PM) atoponce: we have over 20 come to our meetings *every* meeting
(10:04:15 PM) Vorian: anyway
(10:04:28 PM) atoponce: it doesn't hurt though, that's for sure
(10:04:37 PM) Vorian: how about this idea
(10:04:39 PM) atoponce: we could do more with it, i'm not saying we can't
(10:04:41 PM) doctormo: Oh I agree that general membership and meetings can be held without much if any money or investment.
(10:04:44 PM) dantaliz1ng [n=dan@wsip-70-184-147-28.ga.at.cox.net] entered the room.
(10:04:49 PM) doctormo: But that is not the only thing we want to do
(10:04:59 PM) atoponce: i would love to get team t-shirts, mugs, mouse pads, etc
(10:04:59 PM) dantaliz1ng is now known as dantalizing
(10:05:33 PM) doctormo: As I see it there are a number of issues to do with materials
(10:06:08 PM) atoponce: i think cds and printing are negligable
(10:06:15 PM) doctormo: When it comes to things like t-shirts, mugs, mouse pads and the like; I see little reason why we can not organise a case badges type project and get a job lot produced for our teams
(10:06:22 PM) H264: I would like to see a list of things that money is typically used for (CDs, typical table costs, banners... etc.)
(10:06:28 PM) atoponce: i bought 100 cdrs for $15. hardly breaking the bank there
(10:06:46 PM) doctormo: atoponce: did you burn them all your self? time is not free either
(10:06:58 PM) leftyfb: atoponce , that's still $15
(10:07:03 PM) Vorian: how about this
(10:07:04 PM) leftyfb: $15 is $15, not $0
(10:07:17 PM) atoponce: true
(10:07:22 PM) leftyfb: it adds up
(10:07:23 PM) atoponce: and no, i didn't burn them all
(10:07:31 PM) lousygarua: atoponce: in my team i will just email costs+stuff to the mailing list and see who can donate what
(10:07:32 PM) leftyfb: a pack of 100 can go in a few months
(10:07:37 PM) leftyfb: quicker at a conference
(10:07:40 PM) atoponce: i haven't burned 1 yet. but, if people need them, they're available
(10:07:57 PM) lousygarua: atoponce: if everyone puts a few bucks u can buy... stuff
(10:08:10 PM) atoponce: at my lug meetings, we do have an accountant, where we ask for donations
(10:08:30 PM) doctormo: I have a whole stack of printable cd and dvds which I could burn ubuntu to and print on the covers.... but it would take a long time to get qualities that are useful. at the moment each one is precious to me.
(10:09:08 PM) atoponce: we keep around $50 in the bank at any given time
(10:09:11 PM) atoponce: it works
(10:09:18 PM) leftyfb: to be honest, I feel each team should deal with money on their own if they can and not if they can't. Canonical should provide cd's and flyers to official teams. But I will argue the fact that to be a successful team, to reall get out there and make some noise and make a difference, money needs to be put forward. Whether it comes back or not is not the case.
(10:09:24 PM) atoponce: all it really goes towards, however, is food. :)
(10:09:54 PM) doctormo: atoponce: having a bank account is usefull
(10:09:56 PM) atoponce: leftyfb: i partially agree. i agree that it's up to the team to raise the funds
(10:10:26 PM) atoponce: but i don't agree that to make some noise and make a difference, money is required. at least not in great amounts
(10:10:39 PM) leftyfb: i never said an amount
(10:11:02 PM) doctormo: atoponce: it isn't large amounts of money, it's the availability of the money when it's needed
(10:11:29 PM) doctormo: Vorian made back his money on the badges, but what if he really had $0 and couldn't pull for personal?
(10:11:48 PM) atoponce: i guess i'm having a hard time seeing what it's needed for, though. where does money come into play to make a team super-successful?
(10:11:58 PM) leftyfb: we've given you examples
(10:12:05 PM) leftyfb: we can restate them and add more if you like
(10:12:21 PM) atoponce: printing cds can be distributed amongst the team
(10:12:21 PM) ridgid_ [n=ridgid@h158.135.28.71.ip.alltel.net] entered the room.
(10:12:31 PM) leftyfb: but they aren't
(10:12:33 PM) atoponce: everyone do 10, and if you have 10 peoule, there's 100
(10:12:40 PM) claydoh left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(10:12:45 PM) atoponce: same with printing labels
(10:12:49 PM) Flannel: atoponce: Except how is that different than 10 people pitching in and spending money to get 100?
(10:12:56 PM) leftyfb: It's like pulling teeth to get cd's from Canonical
(10:13:01 PM) leftyfb: blank cd's aren't cheap
(10:13:06 PM) leftyfb: labels's are free
(10:13:08 PM) leftyfb: nothing is free
(10:13:10 PM) leftyfb: this is money
(10:13:13 PM) atoponce: no different. however, it's easier to get word out on the list, then meet to get donations
(10:13:15 PM) leftyfb: I don't get why you don't see this
(10:13:20 PM) etank: leftyfb: actually you can go to shipit and get them pretty easily
(10:13:21 PM) doctormo: we don't have 10 canon ip5000's to do nice CDs though
(10:13:26 PM) atoponce: my point is it's negligable
(10:13:36 PM) atoponce: i burn 10 cds. what is that? a buck?
(10:13:41 PM) atoponce: i'll skip lunch tomorrow
(10:13:48 PM) etank: let each member order some and then you have enough for a nice event
(10:13:49 PM) leftyfb: etank , They won't give me more than 3 and if I asked for some 2 months before, they won't give me 3 more.
(10:14:02 PM) doctormo: atoponce: you burn 10 horrible looking CDs that give ubuntu a bad name
(10:14:16 PM) leftyfb: burned cd's don't make a good impression
(10:14:17 PM) atoponce: ubuntu will send me 5 for free
(10:14:20 PM) leftyfb: they're not professional
(10:14:23 PM) etank: i have done special orders before and never had a problem getting them
(10:14:27 PM) leftyfb: nobody will take it seriously
(10:14:35 PM) atoponce: my point is, it's negligable
(10:14:38 PM) atoponce: that's all
(10:14:42 PM) claydoh [n=claydoh@66-252-52-203.dyn-adsl.midmaine.net] entered the room.
(10:14:49 PM) atoponce: spread out the chore, and it comes to pennies per person
(10:14:54 PM) greg-g: but approved teams get larger quantities of professional prints
(10:14:59 PM) leftyfb: banners for conferences?
(10:15:00 PM) leftyfb: booths?
(10:15:01 PM) atoponce: there isn't anything, per person, that would demand tons of money
(10:15:03 PM) doctormo: atoponce: it must be nice to be rich, pulling money out of the air; but this still needs to have guides in the wiki for it
(10:15:12 PM) atoponce: oh brother
(10:15:27 PM) doctormo: atoponce: the other point is why none of this advice is in the wiki anyway
(10:15:33 PM) greg-g: leftyfb: banners for a conference can be provided by canonical if certain things are met (ask Vorian)
(10:15:52 PM) leftyfb: we're not talking about amounts of money. We're talking ANY money
(10:15:54 PM) etank: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamDealingWithMoney
(10:15:55 PM) claydoh left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(10:16:01 PM) etank: there is a wiki page for ya
(10:16:03 PM) lousygarua: i can probably get an open-source-phile printing-house to print my banners and stuff, while sponsoring the printing-house
(10:16:21 PM) leftyfb: lousygarua , get them to sponsor all the LoCo's
(10:16:25 PM) leftyfb: we're all not so lucky
(10:16:48 PM) lousygarua: leftyfb: i don't have such printing-house yet but i will sure try to get one. connections - you know
(10:16:53 PM) doctormo: Besides who is going to help me with my taxes this year, I have a weird looking $4k earnings jump, the fact that it was all spent is not something the government cares about. there was no organisation to get the tax relife so I have to pay income tax for those badges.
(10:17:01 PM) Vorian: leftyfb, there was a day and time when we were not so lucky either
(10:17:08 PM) Vorian: we made our own luck
(10:17:10 PM) ridgid_: does this not work for getting cd's? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoGettingCds
(10:17:24 PM) Vorian: ridgid, that works for approved teams
(10:17:50 PM) doctormo: Vorian: we have the MIT media lab, it is useful; don't worry we are using it.
(10:17:51 PM) etank: so it seems that the first thing on the agenda should be getting to an Approved state
(10:17:53 PM) lousygarua: how does a team get 'approved'? they become big and amazing?
(10:17:57 PM) greg-g: and non-approved teams can still do activities/projects, enough to get approved, and then will be able to get those cds from canonical
(10:18:18 PM) doctormo: greg-g: I feel like I'm playing ATITD here
(10:18:19 PM) etank: +1 greg-g
(10:18:20 PM) Vorian: doctormo, I'm not following you
(10:18:30 PM) Flannel: lousygarua: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoGettingApproved
(10:18:32 PM) doctormo: Vorian: which part?
(10:18:38 PM) Vorian: <doctormo> Vorian: we have the MIT media lab, it is useful; don't worry we are using it.
(10:18:39 PM) dthacker: hi, been afk.  I'm already sourcing CD's and will have prices in about 2 weeks
(10:19:10 PM) claydoh [n=claydoh@66-252-52-203.dyn-adsl.midmaine.net] entered the room.
(10:19:13 PM) leftyfb: Again, i'm not trying to get money or get money given to LoCo's. I still feel teams should get money on their own and not spend it if they don't have it. But again my point is, things can and do cost money. Whether it's $1 or $100. Whether it's 1 person paying or 20. Whether one team feels the purchase is useful or not, it doesn't matter.
(10:19:15 PM) H264: pressed CDs with uber cool labels :)
(10:19:19 PM) lousygarua: Flannel: thx for link
(10:19:54 PM) greg-g: leftyfb: right, and some "best practices" for handling donations is a good idea
(10:19:59 PM) lousygarua: bottom line - what leftyfb is saying is that teams should take care for finanical stuff alone
(10:20:15 PM) leftyfb: maybe with some guidance
(10:20:15 PM) lousygarua: and that's the right way to do it bcoz each country has it's own taxes and stupid financial laws
(10:20:33 PM) etank: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamDealingWithMoney
(10:20:39 PM) greg-g: leftyfb: it is hard when none of us are accountants
(10:20:39 PM) doctormo: I think what we are saying is that we should be allowed to share advice on how to run out finanaces on the wiki without invoking the wrath of ubuntu-us and the CC
(10:21:05 PM) doctormo: greg-g: finding one of those would be nice
(10:21:08 PM) lousygarua: the important thing to get to LoCo managers is that you shouldn't buy cheap cd's and write "UBUNTU! :)" on them bcoz it looks cheap and horrible. you should invest some more and make it official and beautiful.
(10:21:26 PM) dthacker: is married to one, but she want's paying customers.... funny that.
(10:21:38 PM) Vorian: lol
(10:21:40 PM) doctormo: dthacker: maybe we can find a socialist one
(10:21:43 PM) leftyfb: But. It would be nice eventually if Canonical could help out the teams with more cd's more often, flyers and possibly banners for conferences for established teams that have proven they are going to utilize these in a big way. I know some of these are in the works, but some are not.
(10:22:10 PM) dthacker: lousygarua: which is why I'm sourcing professional printed cd's and envelopes.  doctormo has inspired me.
(10:22:14 PM) greg-g: lousygarua: I kind of think that the "UBUNTU! :)" cds are ok for starting teams, and then when they are approved, it isn't a problem (as much) anymore
(10:22:23 PM) Vorian: Canonical already provides one of the best operating systems for free, let's not forget that.
(10:22:25 PM) etank: CD numbers have dropped from Canonical recently
(10:22:28 PM) doctormo: dthacker: are you? we should work together
(10:22:33 PM) H264: etank: could we put an array on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamDealingWithMoney with come common things bought with approx price and time needed?
(10:22:41 PM) dthacker: I'll get prices, and I'll see if there is a demand  for them at the price I get.
(10:22:51 PM) doctormo: Vorian: I manage to provide some of that code too lets not forget that
(10:22:52 PM) etank: for flyers go to system76
(10:23:10 PM) Vorian: great :)
(10:23:18 PM) etank: H264: sure go for it
(10:23:21 PM) Vorian: I just sit here on irc
(10:23:31 PM) dthacker: doctormo: the more the merrier.
(10:23:36 PM) H264: etank: but is that a good idea? :P
(10:23:50 PM) ***lousygarua feels the open-source+ubuntu spirit in the air
(10:23:58 PM) etank: H264: anything that is constructive and helpful is great
(10:24:02 PM) etank: H264: go for it
(10:24:02 PM) dthacker: I don't want to be the CD czar, just the CD errand-boy
(10:24:22 PM) H264: etank: I'll have to sometime then...
(10:24:28 PM) doctormo: We need to sort out a CD project, this should be our next target as a consumer block (you all know what that is right?)
(10:24:30 PM) heathen: dthacker: that's more dangerous, thus the "Dont shoot the messenger" saying
(10:24:59 PM) dthacker: I've lobbied unsuccessfully  for Canonical to change policies so now I'm in DIY mode.
(10:25:12 PM) greg-g: so, is the concensous that Yes, LoCos use some money sometimes, and it might be nice if they had some tips on how to make it legit and B) the ubuntu-us mentoring team is that the group that is going to say how to manage money?
(10:25:26 PM) leftyfb: I would only want pressed cd's. Burned cd's don't play well on older or aging hardware. Pressed cd's work on everything than can read at all.
(10:25:32 PM) lousygarua: doctormo: don't canonical put the svg with the happy ppl online?
(10:25:39 PM) doctormo: greg-g: no, but mentoring should include information about money
(10:25:41 PM) greg-g: *the ubuntu-us mentoring team is NOT the group...
(10:25:47 PM) doctormo: lousygarua: do we need to use that?
(10:25:47 PM) dthacker: leftyb: quality is job one
(10:25:53 PM) etank: greg-g: much better :)
(10:26:19 PM) leftyfb: greg-g , I like that statement
(10:26:27 PM) lousygarua: doctormo: no but it can be a good starting point to edit and make it ''beautifuller''
(10:26:44 PM) leftyfb: things like tips of getting flyers from system76
(10:27:12 PM) greg-g: Zelut made a nice post about the System76 stuff this week, and that info is on their website, under "Community"
(10:27:16 PM) doctormo:   lousygarua: you have not seen my versions?
(10:27:17 PM) ridgid left the room (quit: Connection timed out).
(10:27:42 PM) greg-g: it is really easy, you don't even have to be a LoCo, just someone who wants to promote Ubuntu
(10:27:50 PM) leftyfb: an official wiki page or something for teams about projects they can do, and ways to advocate. Some of which cost money and advice on how to earn the money or how to get the materials from certain places for free and what the restrictions are.
(10:27:54 PM) doctormo: http://dohickey-project.com/tmp/UbuntuFeisty/ <- CD Artwork
(10:28:03 PM) lousygarua: doctormo: emmm sorry but nope. i didn't get to organizing my first ubuntu meeting yey on my loco
(10:28:20 PM) leftyfb: greg-g , that post won't be read in 6 months or when the next release is out
(10:29:05 PM) greg-g: leftyfb: then we should make a "marketing materials for LoCos" wiki with a link to System76
(10:29:12 PM) doctormo: And we do need to move as a US consumer block on some issues like CDs
(10:29:20 PM) leftyfb: one other tidbit .. for requesting cd's. We're 2 weeks away from Gutsy.....
(10:29:21 PM) leftyfb: ShipIt is currently closed
(10:29:22 PM) leftyfb: We'll be back in a few days, shipping Ubuntu 7.10 (Gutsy Gibbon) CDs.
(10:29:35 PM) leftyfb: "but the delivery may take up to ten weeks"
(10:29:59 PM) etank: leftyfb: once you are an approved team you will get a shipment faster
(10:30:05 PM) greg-g: that is logistical, you can't make 10,000+ cds of a distro over night
(10:30:20 PM) etank: should receive them within a few weeks of the release
(10:30:24 PM) doctormo: And what I absolutly want to avoid is people beating the drum that LoCos shouldn't ever need money; it puts people off doing anything and harms moral.
(10:30:24 PM) ***dthacker waves his magic wand
(10:30:25 PM) greg-g: well, you CAN, but, yeah, the priority goes to approved team
(10:30:50 PM) etank: greg-g: true
(10:31:09 PM) greg-g: doctormo: I agree with you, but I also see how they are just wanting to prevent some pain later on when the money issues blow up
(10:31:52 PM) doctormo: greg-g: I can see that, but if it's a choice between some hard lessons well learned or sitting on your hands; I opt for blow up
(10:32:21 PM) greg-g: kind of, except when it ruins a state LoCo and the reputation of Ubuntu in that area because of it
(10:32:26 PM) atoponce: i guess i've never experienced the "hard lessons" and i've lead my local lug for 6 years, and have helped ubuntu-utah for 2
(10:32:41 PM) greg-g: "that official team just screwed us and its members over because of bad accounting, don't use ubuntu" or something
(10:32:54 PM) leftyfb: atoponce: your team is approved?
(10:32:58 PM) atoponce: yes
(10:33:18 PM) leftyfb: what things did you accomplish that awarded you the aproval?
(10:33:53 PM) leftyfb: If you don't mind me asking
(10:33:54 PM) atoponce: we held regular meetings, and worked with schools to get their district switched over to edubuntu
(10:34:07 PM) atoponce: which we're still working on
(10:34:24 PM) ***lousygarua pounders
(10:34:25 PM) leftyfb: That's it? Basically the only 2 things that were on your approval form?
(10:34:33 PM) lousygarua: isn't hte finanical issue closed?
(10:34:37 PM) atoponce: well, we were in the swing for 9 months or so
(10:34:42 PM) lousygarua: LoCo teams should handle their own money
(10:34:47 PM) atoponce: we had about 80 on the mailing list, and 10 showing up to meets
(10:34:49 PM) greg-g: lousygarua: +1
(10:34:49 PM) lousygarua: move to issue #3 IMO
(10:35:11 PM) dthacker: and if they are handling there own money they are responsible for financial controls.
(10:35:14 PM) lousygarua: greg-g: oooooooooh my first IRC vote!
(10:35:26 PM) greg-g: lousygarua: :) you're welcome
(10:35:27 PM) atoponce: lousygarua: +2 :)
(10:35:28 PM) leftyfb: I'm curious as to what projects a team might take part in to help get approved that don't cost a dime.
(10:35:29 PM) etank: +1 leftyfb
(10:35:40 PM) lousygarua: atoponce: ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh excitement!
(10:35:41 PM) etank: +1 lousygarua i mean
(10:35:44 PM) greg-g: meetings, release parties
(10:35:50 PM) dthacker: leftyb: demos, classes, installfests,
(10:35:52 PM) atoponce: leftyfb: i would suggest advocation to corporations and schools
(10:36:04 PM) atoponce: release parties and install fests are good too
(10:36:18 PM) atoponce: hit up a cafe, or something, and you can rent the space for free
(10:36:25 PM) atoponce: or a library, or university
(10:36:30 PM) leftyfb: both are coming up in less than 2 weeks
(10:36:32 PM) dthacker: panera was free for the release party
(10:36:35 PM) greg-g: yep, we are going to a bar/restuarant for our release party
(10:36:39 PM) leftyfb: we have both planned already
(10:36:43 PM) etank: basically, show that you are active and doing something for the community (Ubuntu and otherwise)
(10:36:45 PM) atoponce: greg-g: that's the way to go
(10:36:46 PM) zackboarman left the room.
(10:36:55 PM) leftyfb: greg-g : ditto
(10:36:58 PM) doctormo: I suggest a page on the wiki to organise group buying
(10:37:05 PM) dthacker: +1
(10:37:07 PM) Vorian: I'm sorry, but I have to go
(10:37:08 PM) greg-g: atoponce: heck yeah, good local Michigan beer too :)
(10:37:09 PM) leftyfb: our installest will be in the MIT media labs
(10:37:12 PM) dthacker: for group buying
(10:37:14 PM) atoponce: greg-g: heh
(10:37:23 PM) lousygarua: are we on issue #3 yet?
(10:37:34 PM) atoponce: let's move on
(10:37:37 PM) etank: later Vorian
(10:37:38 PM) nomasteryoda: leftyfb, hey thats' too far for me to drive.... LOL down in Ga
(10:37:40 PM) ***atoponce takes the reigns
(10:37:48 PM) nomasteryoda: yeaha!
(10:38:05 PM) greg-g: so, the CoC
(10:38:08 PM) atoponce: Flannel: you're up
(10:38:13 PM) atoponce: meh
(10:38:22 PM) Flannel: Me? No.  I'm not nealmcb
(10:38:24 PM) atoponce: nealmcb, who isn't here
(10:38:30 PM) atoponce: i know. my bad
(10:38:35 PM) Vorian: \o/
(10:38:38 PM) Vorian: meeting over
(10:38:42 PM) Vorian: :)
(10:38:43 PM) greg-g: :)
(10:38:55 PM) atoponce: so, neal isn't here, but let's discuss it anyway
(10:39:12 PM) Flannel: there is *a* neal here though.  I can pretend to change my surname if you want.
(10:39:13 PM) lousygarua: what is wrong about the CoC? i like my CoC
(10:39:34 PM) jimmacdonald left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(10:39:40 PM) etank: read the CoC (and sign it if you agree with it) then treat others the way you want to be treated
(10:39:43 PM) etank: tada
(10:39:46 PM) atoponce: lousygarua: nealmcb wanted us to keep a positive attitude to the meet
(10:39:58 PM) atoponce: etank: exactly
(10:40:07 PM) atoponce: has everyone here read the CoC, and/or signed it?
(10:40:13 PM) lousygarua: oh, we are rather positive i suppose
(10:40:14 PM) ***etank has
(10:40:14 PM) ***greg-g has
(10:40:17 PM) atoponce: thus, becoming an 'ubuntero'?
(10:40:18 PM) ***lousygarua has
(10:40:30 PM) leftyfb: i have read and signed it
(10:40:55 PM) atoponce: let's go over it quickly, then we'll move on
(10:41:07 PM) etank: it is pretty much common sense
(10:41:07 PM) dthacker: yes, the night I founded the LoCo I became an Ubuntero
(10:41:15 PM) atoponce: "be considerate"
(10:41:35 PM) heathen: what CoC?
(10:41:36 PM) atoponce: "be respectful"
(10:41:46 PM) atoponce: "be collaborative"
(10:41:54 PM) atoponce: "when you disagree, consult others"
(10:41:54 PM) nomasteryoda: "be ubuntu"
(10:42:04 PM) atoponce: "when you are unsure, ask for help"
(10:42:13 PM) atoponce: "step down considerately"
(10:42:16 PM) atoponce: is that all of them?
(10:42:22 PM) lousygarua: +"buy and eat sushi"
(10:42:28 PM) atoponce: heh
(10:42:29 PM) lousygarua: (or make it yourself)
(10:42:35 PM) leftyfb: link please for heathen
(10:42:42 PM) nomasteryoda: "be in the spirit of Ubuntu" ... no really, that should be there
(10:42:43 PM) heathen: thanks
(10:42:53 PM) heathen: hush yoda
(10:43:00 PM) etank: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
(10:43:01 PM) atoponce: the CoC is a CC license, so you can use it as your loco mission statement, if you want
(10:43:02 PM) nomasteryoda: err, ok
(10:43:07 PM) heathen: none of that comman sense ;)
(10:43:09 PM) lousygarua: ok what did neal mean on issue #4?
(10:43:16 PM) lousygarua: [quote]Establishing a collaborative spirit, open to new ideas, while also getting things done
(10:43:17 PM) atoponce: we use it for our local lug
(10:43:28 PM) etank: dispute resolution --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductDisputeResolution
(10:43:59 PM) atoponce: lousygarua: basically, extending the CoC. we can't let stuff, like taxes and legal foo, in the way of building teams and chugging along
(10:44:12 PM) atoponce: we need to remember that we all have work to do, and should keep doing it
(10:44:25 PM) etank: we should be building each other up
(10:44:30 PM) atoponce: +1
(10:44:34 PM) etank: as individuals and as teams
(10:44:40 PM) etank: we all have the same goal
(10:44:44 PM) greg-g: GO TEAM!
(10:44:50 PM) atoponce: heh
(10:44:57 PM) etank: hence UBUNTU
(10:45:45 PM) lousygarua: basically if u have some development/programming experience, with all of the TODO lists and stuff, you can apply the 'good coding habits' on managing the team also
(10:46:10 PM) Flannel: lousygarua: you want me to intent my members?
(10:46:37 PM) lousygarua: Flannel: i'm sorry i don't know english again
(10:46:52 PM) lousygarua: ohhhh indent :)
(10:46:55 PM) lousygarua: YES INDENT THE MALL
(10:47:01 PM) lousygarua: s/mall/m all/
(10:47:11 PM) atoponce: finally, i think we can agree that if a team would like to pursue financial help, they are entitled to, it just won't come from this project is all
(10:47:39 PM) atoponce: we probably should send a couple people after canonical, however, getting some of this wrapped up
(10:47:47 PM) atoponce: i feel we've made a lot of progress on it, however
(10:47:51 PM) etank: +1
(10:47:52 PM) atoponce: which i'm glad of
(10:48:29 PM) lousygarua: atoponce: i think someone can volunteer to nagging canonical and just inform the loco mailing list on achivements
(10:48:30 PM) atoponce: canonical will definitely have answers to questions that this project, or locos in general, may not have
(10:48:39 PM) lousygarua: we don't have to decide who does what right now
(10:48:42 PM) atoponce: lousygarua: perfect. you up to it? :)
(10:48:49 PM) atoponce: no. we don't
(10:49:04 PM) lousygarua: i like nagging canonical, but i don't understand anything about financial stuff
(10:49:08 PM) lousygarua: so no :)
(10:49:14 PM) atoponce: heh
(10:49:34 PM) atoponce: well, we can worry about that later, if it comes up again
(10:49:49 PM) atoponce: i feel we made some resoluttions tonight in some areas
(10:49:54 PM) atoponce: so thx
(10:50:19 PM) greg-g: thank you
(10:50:28 PM) ***greg-g feels good about the meeting overall
(10:50:33 PM) atoponce: let's keep building our teams, going for approval, and leading the way for ubuntu in the united states
(10:50:35 PM) lousygarua: did it end?
(10:50:41 PM) doctormo: yep
(10:50:46 PM) doctormo: bye bye
(10:50:46 PM) lousygarua: atoponce: yep either
(10:50:50 PM) atoponce: we've covered all agenda items
(10:50:57 PM) lousygarua: ciao, good meeting
(10:51:02 PM) greg-g: g'night all
(10:51:03 PM) atoponce: is there anything else that needs to be discussed?
(10:51:14 PM) doctormo: let me know atoponce when Vorian wants to do a meeting etc; I'll be available via the ubuntu-ma irc channel or mailing list
(10:51:15 PM) atoponce: speak now, or forever hold your peace
(10:51:15 PM) ***greg-g waits....
(10:51:27 PM) atoponce: doctormo: sounds good
(10:51:38 PM) etank: did this settle everyones issues?
(10:51:43 PM) doctormo left the room ("Konversation terminated!").
(10:51:47 PM) etank: or at least start to
(10:52:06 PM) atoponce: etank: i think there are still some disagreements, but headway was made for sure
(10:52:20 PM) etank: i sure hope so
(10:52:39 PM) etank: discussion is good for growth
(10:52:45 PM) greg-g: did we need a log for this one?
(10:52:52 PM) ridgid_ left the room ("Leaving").
(10:53:00 PM) etank: but it can go to long and start to be harmful too
(10:53:26 PM) atoponce: i've got the log
(10:53:36 PM) greg-g: good deal
(10:57:56 PM) heathen: is it over?
(10:58:10 PM) ***greg-g nods
(10:58:12 PM) etank: heathen: i think so
(10:58:22 PM) heathen: good, i can stop being a voice of reason
(10:58:28 PM) heathen: that was out of sorts for me
(10:59:15 PM) etank: haha
(10:59:24 PM) etank: night all
(10:59:26 PM) etank left the room (quit: "I'm out of here. Talk to ya later.").
(11:01:52 PM) lousygarua: gnight
END MEEETING