2009-06-09

Agenda

Topics discussed at this meeting:

  • UDS BugSquad related topics -- BugSquad UDS atteendes

  • LP Improvements for triagers -- bcurtiswx

Minutes

TBD

LP Improvements for triagers

TBD

Open Discussion

Agree on next meeting date and time

Log

17:00   thekorn hi
17:00   bcurtiswx-mini  so, who runs these meetings? :P
17:00   andresmujica    last time was me!
* bcurtiswx-mini sits down then
17:01   andresmujica    so if anyone steps up, i can try it for the second time
17:01   BUGabundo       hey everyone.
* BUGabundo waves
17:01   andresmujica    o/
17:01   bdmurray        Hi
17:01   bcurtiswx-mini  \o/ whats that supposed to be
17:01   andresmujica    ok, let's start this
17:01   BUGabundo       1st time on this meeting so be gentle. thanks
17:01   andresmujica    (i supposed me waving :)
17:01   bcurtiswx-mini  i got yelled at when i wasn't here last time :P
17:01   andresmujica    #startmeeting
* charlie-tca waves
17:01   pedro_  heya
17:02   pace_t_zulu     o/
17:02   andresmujica    holly gosh, shouldn't the bot respond to startmeeting?
17:02   bcurtiswx-mini  idk, didn't for the server meeting
17:02   bcurtiswx-mini  <shrugs>
17:02   pace_t_zulu     mootbot is MIA
17:02   andresmujica    ok.
17:03   charlie-tca     it should, but maybe it is broke again
17:03   andresmujica    ok, np. So this is our second meeting, and the proposed topic is at
17:03   andresmujica    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting
17:03   andresmujica    and the last minutes from the previous meeting are at
17:03   andresmujica    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting/Minutes/2009-12-05
17:04   andresmujica    first my apologies for emailing too late the reminder to the ML.. it didn{ t make it into the the newsletter, but anyway we're here so let's start
=== jussi01 is now known as jussio1
=== jussio1 is now known as Android
17:05   andresmujica    [TOPIC] UDS BugSquad related topics -- BugSquad UDS atteendes
=== Android is now known as Tuhina
17:06   andresmujica    anyone of the attendes want to share some of the highlits from UDS related to bugsquad?
=== Tuhina is now known as jussi01
* bcurtiswx-mini pokes maco
17:07   bcurtiswx-mini  well i know maco went to UDS.. but i think shes @ work
17:08   BUGabundo       or school
17:08   BUGabundo       anyone else?
17:08   bdmurray        There were quite a few things I found interesting
17:09   bdmurray        making the greasemonkey triaging scripts into extensions and available in a PPA
17:09   bdmurray        a Bug Squad mentoring program
17:09   bdmurray        an Ubuntu Reviewers team for patches attached to bug reports
17:10   bdmurray        and some discussions about how to write apport package hooks and what packages to target
17:10   bcurtiswx-mini  to the Bug Squad mentoring program... i think we mentor each other in the bugs channel pretty well
17:10   bcurtiswx-mini  how would a mentoring program be different?
17:11   bdmurray        We talked about making it a bit more structured to make it easier for people to find a mentor and to help people are who are shy.
17:11   andresmujica    bdmurray: this is the spec right? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/SpecialisationWithinBugcontrol
17:12   bdmurray        andresmujica: that's right
17:12   bdmurray        pedro_: anything more to add on that?
17:13   bcurtiswx-mini  i like the idea, i just ask a ton of questions :).  how can i help build the spec up.. i can come up with a few ideas
17:13   pedro_  well what bdmurray said is mostly why we started to do the mentoring program
17:13   pedro_  that's based on the experience of previous months/years
17:14   pedro_  we clearly need a more defined and structured way to start helping new triagers who want to be involved in the bugsquad
17:14   pedro_  doing triage, participating in our activities, meetings, decisions, etc
17:14   bcurtiswx-mini  agreed
17:14   bdmurray        bcurtiswx-mini: we are still drafting the spec at this point in time
17:14   pedro_  the bugsquad is not just about doing triage and that's it, people need to get involved in the team as well
17:15   bcurtiswx-mini  bdmurray: understood, i would love to help build this "program" up
17:15   andresmujica    i' ve got a doubt about bugsquad membership, it would be open for everyone or it was decided to ask for some prereq ?
17:15   bdmurray        bcurtiswx-mini: great! feel free to add any thoughts to the end of the Discussion section of the spec
17:17   pedro_  andresmujica: IIRC we agreed on having it now as a close team and the requirements for join there would be: sign the coc and read the how to triage guide
17:17   bdmurray        I think we should talk about that a wee bit more, the 1st item is easy to verify the second hard.
17:18   bcurtiswx-mini  similar to bug control... they e-mail the list answering pre-made questions about the triage guide ?
17:18   andresmujica    yeap, maybe some questions as bug-control application
17:18   pedro_  right, maybe we could ask a few easy questions related to that guide
17:19   charlie-tca     At least that would let them know the guides exist.
17:19   bdmurray        I think that would add a lot overhead and might lean the other way
17:20   bdmurray        verify coc is signed, approve and in approval notification send links to triaging documentation and mentoring program
17:20   bcurtiswx-mini  bdmurray: ok, what about a "trial" period, like bug control
17:21   bcurtiswx-mini  after 90 days ping a bug squad admin to update the membership
17:21   bdmurray        sounds good to me
17:21   andresmujica    and check bugs triaged in that period
17:22   bdmurray        I think that'd be part of the mentoring program
17:22   andresmujica    should a new member must have a mentor?
17:22   bdmurray        No, I don't think so
17:23   bcurtiswx-mini  so , by request, a mentor?
17:24   bdmurray        If I understand correctly - new members could request a mentor yes
17:24   bdmurray        But it would not be required
17:24   bcurtiswx-mini  i think it may be help to have bug squad newbies build up their wiki pages and review that upon 90 days are up
17:25   bcurtiswx-mini  put a couple triaged bugs in there?
17:26   charlie-tca     We make them do that to join bug-control, I would think to stay in bug-squad it should not be the same.
17:26   bdmurray        Reviewing the bug control applications takes a lot of time, but maybe we can make a streamlined simplified process for the Bug Squad
17:27   bdmurray        charlie-tca: I agree
17:27   andresmujica    the point is that bugsquad needs a lot of members that can do a good triage work, so with mentoring and some commitment to be members they can grow and get more involvement.
17:27   bdmurray        Anyway, we can discuss this more in the spec / on the mailing list
17:27   andresmujica    yeap.
17:27   hggdh   perhaps one way is to have mentors assigned to newbies
17:28   hggdh   b.g.o does something similar, at least with evo
17:28   andresmujica    there were some more topics at uds that worth mentioning,  kernel bug handling, Desktop Bug workflow and Symptom based bug reporting
17:29   micahg  I think mentoring helped me get acclimated faster
17:30   andresmujica    as the mentoring program is so new and it's a volunteer work, i believe we can let it move and it would reacht the point were new members can be assigned to a mentor..
17:31   andresmujica    if needed..
17:31   bdmurray        Right, I've some concern about the quantity of mentees versus mentors
17:32   bcurtiswx-mini  ask for volunteers in the two ML's ?  its going to be difficult to coordinate best times to meet too.. since were from all around the world
17:32   bcurtiswx-mini  i'd recommend assigning people from the same time zones.. or close time zones
17:33   pedro_  bcurtiswx-mini: that's the idea, yes
17:33   hggdh   the issue is mentoring is a voluntary action, right now. We, er, mentor by answering questions on IRC. Perhaps stress IRC presence?
17:34   andresmujica    ok, as the time moves, i'd propose to discuss that remaining points in the ML, and as the spec is being drafted it surely can be greatly improved.
17:34   pace_t_zulu     hggdh: +1
17:35   andresmujica    about the kernel bug handling, i believe it's important to note that a bug bankrupcy was discussed, as the high volume of kernel bugs (around 5000) is really hard to manage, and is not feasible to triage them all and solved
17:36   BUGabundo       5k?
17:36   andresmujica    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/specs/KernelKarmicBugHandling
17:36   micahg  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux
17:36   BUGabundo       that's what the kernel team gets for prefering to have all kernel bug filed in separate
17:36   andresmujica    so the kernel team is discussing what should be the best path of action...
17:37   micahg  well, I"m sure that at least 20% are from old kernels if not more
17:37   andresmujica    yeap,
17:38   hggdh   so. What can we do about that?
17:38   micahg  I would suggest getting rid of any bug not touched before hardy was released
17:38   bcurtiswx-mini  kernel hug day?
17:39   micahg  just mark invalid
17:39   andresmujica    probably be aware of the issue and check the kernel bug policies page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies
17:39   micahg  in case someone has a real issue, they can reopend
17:39   bdmurray        I'd rather people focus on kernel bugs coming in today, tomorrow, the next day, rather than the old crufty stuff
17:39   charlie-tca     micahg: what would you do with dapper, which is still supported on servers for two years?
17:40   pedro_  bcurtiswx-mini: the team is organizing kernel hug  days almost every Tuesday since a few weeks ago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/BugDay
17:40   micahg  charlie-tca: it doesn't even show up in the versions provided
17:40   pedro_  in fact there's one today
17:40   charlie-tca     That makes it more wrong, then
17:40   bcurtiswx-mini  pedro_: maybe have them announced on the bug squad list?
17:41   andresmujica    http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20090609.html
17:41   bdmurray        charlie-tca: the dapper bugs are reported about linux-source-2.6.15
17:41   ogasawara       unless a dapper bug is an omg kittens are dieing or a security fix it's likely Won't Fix
17:42   charlie-tca     bdmurray: my point was you can't just invalid a bug because it is before hardy. It could be valid against dapper
17:42   ogasawara       and the kernel bug day announcement was sent to ubuntu-qa, ubuntu-bugcontrol, kernel-team, and ubuntu-bugsquad
17:42   hggdh   ogasawara, then we *could* close these as wont fix, correct?
17:42   ogasawara       hggdh: in my opinion, yes
17:43   hggdh   OK. Anyone against?
17:43   charlie-tca     thanks for clearing that, ogasawara
17:43   bdmurray        Again I think closing old bugs is less useful than triaging new bugs
17:43   andresmujica    some magic script can do it instead of us..
17:43   ogasawara       as for closing old stale kernel bugs, I've got some scripts I'm going to run to clear them out
17:43   hggdh   bdmurray, I agree, but there's still the reporter needing some sort of ACK
17:44   BUGabundo       hggdh: just one Q: how about those that remain past the old release, and are not identified as such ?
17:44   micahg  bdmurray: I agree also, but it can be mentally disheartening to see such a large number of bugs in a package and never seem to make decent headway
17:44   hggdh   BUGabundo, this is actually a question of quantity vs quality. There is only so much we can do
17:45   BUGabundo       I know
17:45   bdmurray        True but it'd be better for the release as a whole if we worked with the "live" bug reports and work on getting those fixed
17:45   hggdh   and a nicely written automagic script can tell the reporter to reopen if needed
17:46   BUGabundo       I guess the closing message could/will ask the subscribers to reopen if they persist
17:46   micahg  indeed bdmurray, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that
17:46   hggdh   +1. I understand ogasawara will run his magic on the old bugs
17:47   micahg  btw, I just ran a search for dapper in the linux package and came up with 144 bugs
17:47   hggdh   ogasawara, sorry. *her* magic.
17:48   ogasawara       hggdh: :)
17:48   ogasawara       for those interested in helping triage, I recently updated the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies
17:49   micahg  OT - Just got a compliment on the apport-collect command from a user
17:49   ogasawara       note the added importance of having bugs test with the mainline kernel build as well
17:49   bcurtiswx-mini  ogasawara: is that in the "debugging proceedures" page?
17:49   ogasawara       bcurtiswx-mini: I'll have to check.  if not I'll add it.
17:49   bdmurray        The DebuggingProcedures page could use some reorganizing
17:50   bcurtiswx-mini  yeah, and additions
17:50   bdmurray        bcurtiswx-mini: additions as in links to existing pages or new pages added?
17:51   andresmujica    another interesting discussion held at UDS was the Symptom Based Bug Reporting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/SymptomBasedBugReporting, that would be an extension to apport hooks that would try to get some common information about the issue by asking questions to the reporter... mr pitti is working on that ...
17:51   bdmurray        andresmujica: he blogged about it today or yesterday
17:52   bcurtiswx-mini  bdmurray: well, idk of all the wiki pages we have on debugging this and that.  but the list seems small from the different amount of packages we have.. so if i don't find a debugging page, i resort to finding basic triage info.. and i am afraid its not enough for devs and to mark as triaged
17:52   bdmurray        oh, that was the interactive hook
17:53   andresmujica    ohh, that's great!!    http://martinpitt.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/interrogation-with-apport-hooks-qt-developer-needed/
17:54   andresmujica    so, we've got 5 more minutes...
17:55   bcurtiswx-mini  yay for going to the 2nd discussion topic :P, to which i have no info for anyways
17:55   andresmujica    LP Improvements for triagers -- bcurtiswx
17:55   andresmujica    hehe
17:56   bcurtiswx-mini  that was more of a question, than a "i know this" thing
17:56   bdmurray        bcurtiswx-mini: well, we did have a meeting with the launchpad bugs team at UDS
17:56   andresmujica    there were some talks about it at UDS... duplicate bug handling, related bugs, what else?
17:56   bdmurray        some of the things we talked about were negated tag searching, bug nominations
17:56   bcurtiswx-mini  bdmurray: about that greasemonkey made FF extension.. sounds like a great idea
17:57   bdmurray        searching for bugs with bzr branches, displaying patches in bug listings
17:57   bcurtiswx-mini  what about running apport collect on all bugs reported against jaunty and karmic when reporters use the launchpad page to report
17:58   bcurtiswx-mini  is that possible?
17:58   hggdh   you mean forcing code on the local machine?
17:58   bdmurray        Instead we are trying to get people to just report bugs via ubuntu-bug / Report a Problem
* hggdh apriori is against
17:58   bdmurray        Additionally with the symptom based bug reporting this will make much more sense
17:58   bcurtiswx-mini  hggdh: not forcing, lol.. you'd ask first and get their permission through a form
17:58   bdmurray        er, be much more beneficial
17:59   andresmujica    ok, time is rover...
17:59   hggdh   <sigh/>
18:00   andresmujica    so, i' ll summarize to the mailing list..
18:00   bcurtiswx-mini  well, bdmurray suggested using the ML more... maybe a good idea ;-) since we've got tons to talk about still
18:00   andresmujica    yeap
18:00   andresmujica    hope it was benefical to every one!
18:00   andresmujica    thanks for the assistance
18:00   andresmujica    #endmeeting

BugSquad/Meeting/Minutes/2009-06-09 (last edited 2009-07-07 15:57:20 by adsl190-2489057)