Ubuntu Wiki

Agenda

Topics discussed at this meeting:

• Triaging versus Bug Fixing/Closing in Karmic -- [Need more input]
• Tasks to do for the team -- andresmujica
• New bug-stuff to look forward to -- bcurtiswx
• Policy of what to do when bugsquad members need help but don't ask -- micahg
  • o They aren't using stock responses (and the replies aren't even close) o Changing status with no reply o Reply without specifying next step (i.e. what the reporter needs to do)

• Mentoring BugSquad members -- related to bug 414627 (malone) -- micahg

• Member adoption of packages -- micahg
• Open Discussions

Minutes

Triaging versus Bug Fixing/Closing in Karmic

As per last UDS the Desktop Team decided to spend more time fixing bugs than triaging, so those members willing to help in that effort should try to recreate bugs, documenting test cases, and forwarding upstream, as this duties are the most valuable ones.

Tasks to do for the team

There are always several tasks that need to be done in order to make the Team grow, so it was decided to use again the TODO list. In order to make the TODO list work, is really important to keep track of it periodically, and off course, update it with the tasks to do.

So from now on, with the Meeting minutes, the link would be sent so it can be reviewed and updated by the volunteers working on the available tasks.

New bug-stuff to look forward to

Just a general question about which is the procedure for develop a package-hook, as so few people are developing package-hooks just ping bdmurray and he'll look for it.

Policy of what to do when bugsquad members need help but don't ask

• They aren't using stock responses (and the replies aren't even close)
• Changing status with no reply
• Reply without specifying next step (i.e. what the reporter needs to do)

As the number of Bug triagers increases, sometimes the willingness to help of the new members leads to a bad triaging process or ignore basical procedures. So, if you find someone behaving incorrectly, or not following the standard procedures causing more harm than good, don't hesitate in getting in touch with him/her (lp-karma-suffix from firefox-lp-improvements packages would do the trick) and help improve him/her skills showing their errors and pointing them to the right documentation.

However one of the MOST important topics treated here was the previously discussed idea of making BugSquad a closed team, asking for a very basic requirements to join the team. It was discussed to make a general expiration of all members of the team, so they can join again after fullfilling the requirements. This would be addressed at the Mailing list so stay tuned and get ready.

Mentoring BugSquad members -- related to bug 414627 (malone)

Launchpad bug 414627 in malone "allow users to select another user to follow/watch" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/414627

Pedro has been working on a Mentorship program designed to help new BugSquad members in the triaging duties. The bug in mention asks for a way to follow someone else at LP (as Mentor an Mentee)

So in the next weeks we would have more information about this.

Member adoption of packages

As we ran out of time it was briefly discussed the need to find which packages doesn't have bug contact in order to offer those as candidates to be adopted by a triager.

Agree on next meeting date and time

Next meeting will be on Tuesday, September 8th at 16:00 UTC in #ubuntu-.

Log

16:40   andresmujica1   hi everyone.. 20 mins for Bugsquad meeting (it would be held at this channel)
=== grep_ is now known as grepory
17:00   hggdh   BONG BONG BONG
17:00   bdmurray        heh
* grepory dances
17:00   hggdh   (this is the bell)
17:01   pedro_  hi folks
* andresmujica1 waves
17:03   andresmujica1   :)
17:03   andresmujica1   ok, let's check what do we got
17:03   andresmujica1   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting
17:04   thekorn hi bugsquad!
17:06   andresmujica1   there are some topics proposed and some items in the agenda...
* andresmujica1 waves thekorn
17:07   andresmujica1   Triaging versus Bug Fixing/Closing in Karmic  (anyone knows more about this topic?  i don't recall whom proposed it)
17:07   bdmurray        Nor do I
17:07   pedro_  well.. that's something we talked about UDS with the desktop team
17:08   pedro_  they're going to spend more time doing bug fixing rather than triaging for the current cycle
17:08   pedro_  but i don't know who added that to the bugsquad meeting agenda, probably got confused by the title
17:09   hggdh   so, if I understand it right, the desktop team will need more help on triaging
17:09   pedro_  as always, yes ;-)
17:10   andresmujica1   something that concerns me is that the biggest triaging effort is mostly done by the devs themselves...   how can we help them more?
17:10   bdmurray        I think trying to recreate bugs, documenting test cases, and forwarding upstream are all a big help.
17:13   andresmujica1   ok... so ?
17:13   matti   :)
17:13   bdmurray        I think we should move to the next item since there doesn't seem to be much to discuss here
17:14   andresmujica1   ok. in the proposed topics we've got
17:14   andresmujica1   Tasks to do for the team
17:15   andresmujica1   from previous meetings we've discussed some ideas,
17:15   andresmujica1   the bug triaging classroom session for the Global Ubuntu Jam, we're looking for someone that can give the session.
17:16   andresmujica1   and the wiki page with the most important bugs per cycle
17:16   bdmurray        At one point in time we had a todo list at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/TODO
17:16   bdmurray        Perhaps we should revive that?
17:17   hggdh   sounds like a good idea
17:17   andresmujica1   yeap, definitely.
17:17   pedro_  yeap, would be good for keeping track of the tasks
17:18   pedro_  to know who is doing what
17:18   bdmurray        However, people have to actively monitor the wiki page
17:18   hggdh   which, I guess, comes smack on -control duties
17:18   bdmurray        Maybe sending monthly reminders of what's on it would be good?
17:18   andresmujica1   we can subscribe to the page
17:19   hggdh   also, but the reminders help
* hggdh had already forgotten about this page
17:19   pedro_  perhaps with the bugsquad meeting report? ;-)
17:20   andresmujica1   ok, i'm offering to update the TODO list with the tasks that have been talked within this meetings,  and yes, it can be sen with the report too
17:20   andresmujica1   sent
17:20   pedro_  person: No such object "https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~pvillavi". <- grgr love you lp
17:21   andresmujica1   ok.
17:21   andresmujica1   now:  New bug-stuff to look forward to -- bcurtiswx
17:21   andresmujica1   not here...
17:21   andresmujica1   i was wondering about package-hooks , where can i find a list of the ones that are being worked on ??
17:22   bdmurray        andresmujica1: what do you mean by being worked on?
17:22   andresmujica1   there's a TAG or someting at LP ?
17:22   bdmurray        The only one I know of being worked on is evolution atm
17:22   andresmujica1   i mean, i want to make an apport-hook but if someone already is working on it it would be better to find a different one..
17:23   bdmurray        I don't think that many people are working on them, so I'd just have at it
17:23   andresmujica1   ok. the standard procedure is to make the bug report and ping piti, right?
17:24   bdmurray        ping me actually
17:24   andresmujica1   ok
17:25   bdmurray        I'll chase getting them incorporated / uploaded
17:26   pedro_  that reminds me that i need to open some bug reports about the ones i wrote during the sprint
17:26   bdmurray        pedro_: yes, that'd be great!
17:27   andresmujica1   Policy of what to do when bugsquad members need help but don't ask -- micahg
=== erhesrhsrtb54vyh is now known as Elbrus
17:28   hggdh   and -- more importantly -- do not follow the rules
17:29   pedro_  send them an email explaining why what they did is wrong? include a link to our documentation and offering help if they have a question?
17:29   bdmurray        One issue here might be that the Bug Squad is an open team so there is no commitment to follow the rules
17:29   andresmujica1   They aren't using stock responses (and the replies aren't even close)
17:29   andresmujica1   Changing status with no reply
17:29   andresmujica1   Reply without specifying next step (i.e. what the reporter needs to do)
17:29   pedro_  i tend to do that most of the times
17:30   hggdh   heh
17:30   pedro_  " Changing status with no reply" < - i hate this
17:30   bdmurray        I try to do what pedro recommends
17:30   pedro_  everytime you do that, a kitten die
17:31   hggdh   OMG, we are running out of kittens!
17:31   bdmurray        That's what I added the contact user hyperlink into lp_karma_suffix
17:31   bdmurray        The idea being you'd see something inappropriate and contact them directly
17:31   bdmurray        However, I think it is important to verify that the person is in fact a member of bug squad
17:32   hggdh   so. I suggest -control starts contacting -- in a nice way -- the -squad member that are doing that, as we find them
17:32   hggdh   s/member/&s/
17:32   andresmujica1   what happened with the discussion about making bug squad a closed team, with some minimal requirements to join?
17:33   bdmurray        That needs to be discussed on the mailing list, particularly what to do with existing members
17:33   bdmurray        Do we just wipe out the team and start over or ...?
17:34   hggdh   best would be to keep on with the existing members, and add an expiry
17:34   hggdh   and request an acceptance of the (new) rules
17:34   andresmujica1   if you don't touch a bug for 3 months set a 30 days expiration ..
17:34   pedro_  andresmujica1, that'd be tricky to do
17:35   bdmurray        Adding an expiration for all members would be easy though
17:35   hggdh   of course, this will also add on overhead for the bug-meisters
17:35   hggdh   since only them (looking at Brian, directly) can do it
17:35   bdmurray        hggdh: for managing the team?  I've written some launchpadlib scripts for managing teams so its not so bad
17:36   bdmurray        Way better than it used to be!
* hggdh retracts the observation ;-)
17:36   pedro_  There are 2046 direct members of the "Ubuntu BugSquad" team <- wow
17:36   andresmujica1   how many bugsquad members are actively triaging ?  is it possible to now?
17:37   bdmurray        andresmujica1: yes, but its somewhat hard
17:37   hggdh   So. We intend to make -squad closed; -sqaud member should follow the rules, including subscribing to the ML
17:38   andresmujica1   i would agree with that.  Even with a general expiration after some ML messages explaining why...
17:38   bdmurray        and what it means to be a member of the bugsquad
17:39   hggdh   +1
17:39   pedro_  I'm agreed with that
17:40   hggdh   any other vote? Otherwise we are agreed, and move on
17:41   andresmujica1   ok
17:41   andresmujica1   so
17:41   andresmujica1   Mentoring BugSquad members -- related to bug 414627 (malone) -- micahg
17:41   ubot4   Launchpad bug 414627 in malone "allow users to select another user to follow/watch" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/414627
17:41   micahg  so, I was thinking to make mentoring a more official feature of bug control
17:41   hggdh   this is something MIcah and I discussed: would help a lot on following new -squads, or proposed -controls
17:41   pedro_  I'd *love* to have that on launchpad, it helps quite a lot on Gnome Bugzilla
17:42   micahg  yeah, that feature would be nice
17:42   pedro_  and would be perfect for the mentoring program we're trying to build
17:42   hggdh   pedro_, exactly the same point I raised with Micah
17:42   micahg  but I realized that it's possible to a point right now
17:42   micahg  if you're subscribed to the package in questions, you can filter by commentor
17:42   bdmurray        It's not big brother-ish?
17:42   micahg  bdmurray: maybe it should be limited to admins
17:42   hggdh   bdmurray, it may deteriorate to BB, without control
17:42   micahg  and no, there's nothing private about non-private bugs are there?
17:43   bdmurray        It implies that I don't trust you and need to watch your every move
17:43   hggdh   it does. This is the point
17:43   micahg  bdmurray: well, not trust is different than training I woudl think
17:44   micahg  why is this different than a seasonsed person standing over another while training?
17:44   andresmujica1   hmm, i'd see it the other way around.. i want to follow the example from someone else...so i watch how he's doing it
17:44   micahg  and the person should know that you're watching I would think
17:44   hggdh   we need to verify. Andre did that with me, for example, when I started in Gnome. I see no problems, since all bugs are viewwable by anyone
17:44   micahg  andresmujica1: I think both ar egoof
17:44   micahg  *good
17:45   hggdh   it is similar to anyone proposing to MOTU, for example (but without the help of 'following'
17:46   micahg  anyway, you can kind of do it now if you subscribe to all bug mail and filter by commenter
17:46   hggdh   and accept thousands of email per day, of course
17:46   micahg  but this would make it so that you can do it more easily
17:47   hggdh   question is: what incentives are there to become a bugsquad?
17:48   hggdh   (since I can comment on any bug, anyway)
17:48   micahg  only to say that they're dedicating themselves to helping
17:48   bdmurray        hugs?
17:48   micahg  but I see where you're going hggdh
17:49   hggdh   perhaps as a pre-req to become a -control?
17:49   micahg  bugsquad should get more help from -control
17:49   micahg  that's how I learned
17:50   hggdh   yes, and this is the mentoring we are trying to start
17:50   micahg  and it encouraged me to keep going
17:51   andresmujica1   ok, we've got a few minutes, so let's wrap up ...
17:51   micahg  maybe we should resurrect the wiki page for mentoring
17:51   hggdh   and start the official mentoring soon
* hggdh pokes pedro_ ;-)
17:52   pedro_  hggdh, just waiting for the response from charlie-tca, if he doesn't answer at the end of this week we might look for someone else to fit there
17:52   pedro_  we cannot wait forever
17:53   pedro_  micahg, there's a plan for starting a more structured mentoring program: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/SpecialisationWithinBugcontrol
* micahg is looking
17:54   pedro_  would be really good if everybody could look at the spec and add comments about it
17:54   micahg  on the comment page
17:54   micahg  ?
17:54   micahg  I don't see a comment page
17:54   pedro_  micahg, feel free to add those at the bottom
17:54   hggdh   just add a Comment header, and we will go from there
17:55   micahg  +1 on the idea
* micahg is already specialized :)
17:56   andresmujica1   ok, let's go to Open Discussion  and let the adopting package topic for the next meeting
17:56   micahg  would comments per category be better?
17:56   bdmurray        wrt to adopting packges I have a question
17:57   bdmurray        Would it be interesting to know what packages nobody is subscribed to?
17:57   pedro_  a big yes ;-)
17:57   micahg  bdmurray: my guess would be most
17:57   micahg  unless people are subscribed to -bugs
17:58   micahg  or maybe not...
17:58   andresmujica1   hmm.. sure.  even get in touch with main developer and help him subscribe to its package...
17:58   hggdh   micahg, I think commenting at the bottom is better -- all comments together
17:58   micahg  ok
17:58   bdmurray        micahg: but if you knew netcat had nobody subscribed to its bug reports and it only has <5 open bugs might that help you choose a package to adopt?
17:59   micahg  yeah, that's a good point
17:59   micahg  maybe both stats together would be good
17:59   bdmurray        and that it is synced with debian so valid bugs should be forwarded upstream ...
17:59   hggdh   I think it would -- I would not be afraid of being overwhelmed, and this plays a role
18:00   micahg  the question is how do we cover 20k pkgs with 125 people?
18:00   hggdh   we do not. There is only so much we can do. But we *can* start
18:00   bdmurray        exactly
18:00   micahg  ok, makes sense
18:01   hggdh   and it will be better than *not* doing anything
18:01   micahg  my plan has always been adopt a package, get the bugs under control, then adopt another
* micahg is still working on the first bunch :)
18:01   hggdh   its a good plan :-)
18:02   hggdh   well, you started with FFox, what did you expect LOL
18:02   micahg  when I started, there were only 1600 FF bugs, now there are 2k :(
18:03   hggdh   one thing we might try is to have more than one for large (in terms of bugs) packages
18:03   hggdh   if we can get it for these large packages, it is already a victory
18:03   micahg  well, that's where mentorhelp
18:03   hggdh   yes
18:04   micahg  you get 2-3 people training on bugs in a large package
18:05   hggdh   So. Comments are needed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/SpecialisationWithinBugcontrol
18:05   hggdh   the sooner, methinks, the better
* micahg will comment tonight
18:05   hggdh   andresmujica1, back to you ;-)
18:06   andresmujica1   ok, about the upcoming Developer week, anything we can help on?
18:08   hggdh   bdmurray, pedro_ ?
18:08   bdmurray        I'm all set thanks for asking
18:10   pedro_  well, just help on welcoming the new people (if there's any) after the talk here at the channel
18:10   hggdh   ROLF
18:11   andresmujica1   ok, anything else we should discuss after closing ?
18:12   bdmurray        andresmujica1: you'll send out minutes correct?
18:12   andresmujica1   yeap
18:12   andresmujica1   starting right now.
18:12   bdmurray        and the next meeting will be on 8 September?
18:13   andresmujica1   if everyone agrees, it would be Sept 8th
18:13   micahg  +1
18:13   andresmujica1   same hour same channel?
18:13   pedro_  sure
18:13   bdmurray        that sounds good to me
18:14   andresmujica1   ok, thanks everyone :)
18:14   pedro_  thanks!
18:15   bdmurray        thanks!
18:15   hggdh   thank you, andresmujica1
18:15   micahg  thanks andresmujica1