Sunday, November 21st, 2010, 7:00pm (1900) PST
Discuss hosting for Ubuntu California Website
- Next steps for the California site
Ubuntu-Hours. Summary of how they are going and recommendations for successful hours. I (jdeslip) want to start an EastBay Hour once a month and want to know more.
- Discuss blocking of indexing of irc log.
If you have anything else you'd like to add to the agenda, or want to make some changes, please feel free to edit it. Please include an explanation of your item if it's not immediately apparent.
Our meetings are held for about 90 minutes every other Sunday at 7:00pm (19:00) PST / 03:00 UTC in our IRC channel, #ubuntu-us-ca on freenode. All interested people are welcome to join us. For questions or help connecting, check out the InternetRelayChat page or use the Web client linked from the Contact page.
1 [03:00] <pleia2> anyway, meeting time :) 2 [03:01] <pleia2> agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/10November21 3 [03:01] <pleia2> who all is here for the meeting? 4 [03:01] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: gotcha 5 [03:01] <jledbetter> o/ 6 [03:02] * dragon raises his hand 7 [03:02] <jtatum> \o 8 [03:02] <jdeslip> HERE 9 [03:02] <akk> o/ 10 [03:02] <nuboon2age_> o/ 11 [03:02] <philipballew> here 12 [03:02] <pleia2> ok, let's start off with any announcements of upcoming events 13 [03:03] <pleia2> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california just shows a couple ubuntu hours in lake forest 14 [03:03] <pleia2> presumably we'll be adding the regularly occurring ones for december, observing holidays, as the weeks go on 15 [03:03] <pleia2> anything else announcement-wise? 16 [03:04] <nuboon2age_> i've talked to people about doing something like an Ubuntu hour in Santa Cruz but haven't settled on a time/place yet 17 [03:04] <MarkDude> Penguin Hour 18 [03:04] <nuboon2age_> or Lindependence Hour or something like that 19 [03:04] <jdeslip> nuboon2age: involving Larry/ 20 [03:04] <jdeslip> ? 21 [03:05] <nuboon2age_> talked to Karsten, lcafiero in particular 22 [03:05] <pleia2> great, so you'll update the resources with announcements once you have the details nailed down 23 [03:05] <nuboon2age_> i've also been seeking a location in Palo Alto or Menlo Park, but haven't settled on a location yet 24 [03:06] <nuboon2age_> yes'm pleia2 25 [03:06] <pleia2> ok, we can probably discuss ubuntu hours further during that portion of the agenda :) 26 [03:06] <pleia2> Agenda item 1: Discuss hosting for Ubuntu California Website: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Website 27 [03:07] <pleia2> I posted to the list earlier this week and unfortunately there wasn't any discussion aside from jtatum's reply (thanks jtatum!) 28 [03:07] <jdeslip> If I remember last meeting, we were going to vote on hosting options this meeting. Do we want to put that off for further discussion? 29 [03:07] <nuboon2age_> on Dec 4th there's a peace Fair/holiday fair in San Jose where i'll be with Cameron S, repping for FLOSS 30 [03:08] <akk> I thought jtatum's comments made sense and didn't have anything useful to add. 31 [03:08] <jdeslip> It seems to me it basically comes down to a choice between pleia2's linode option and aaditya's appengine option. Is taht fair? 32 [03:08] <jtatum> jdeslip, i don't think we have to decide.. can do both 33 [03:09] <pleia2> jdeslip: yeah 34 [03:09] <pleia2> I spoke with jtatum briefly at the mt view ubuntu hour and we thought it might be acceptable to go with the linode for the basic site and then if we wanted to build some spiffy applications or other dynamic content (aside from planet and blog) we can go with appengine 35 [03:09] <akk> It's confusing to have multiple sites, though ... we already sort of have that confusion. 36 [03:09] <dragon> jtatum: what'd be the setup if we do both? 37 [03:09] <akk> Though yeah, using another site for fancy appengine stuff would be okay, just don't have multiple user-visible landing pages. 38 [03:09] <jtatum> main site links to app engine appsâ€¦ i think that's the general setup of appengine 39 [03:10] <eps> It looks like my suggestion to look at SFCCP fell through the cracks. 40 [03:10] <pleia2> essentially the ubuntu-california.org site will be a landing page for all resources (wiki, forums, mailing list, etc) 41 [03:10] <dragon> jtatum: that way we'd end up having two websites, unless we do iframes. 42 [03:10] <pleia2> eps: we asked you to email us the details so we could add it to the wiki, you never did :( 43 [03:11] <jledbetter> ohnoiframes 44 [03:11] <eps> I'm totally swamped and I can't edit the Wiki directly. 45 [03:11] <pleia2> there were a couple ideas that people didn't follow up with 46 [03:11] <jtatum> dragon, a lot of sites link to subdomains that you don't think of as two sitesâ€¦ :) ebay, yahoo, amazonâ€¦ et 47 [03:11] <jtatum> c 48 [03:11] <pleia2> eps: unfortunately we need *someone* to get the details for us so we can review it, I don't know anything about this proposal 49 [03:11] <dragon> jtatum: they do, but we'll have to make sure they share the same look-and-feel. 50 [03:11] <jtatum> keep the header and footer the same and nobody will think they're different sites 51 [03:11] <eps> SFCCP - www.sfccp.net - you can read about it on their web site. 52 [03:12] <eps> There are a number of advantages: (1) you can do pretty much anything you want in terms of software 53 [03:12] <dragon> jtatum: in that case, why would we even need it in two places? 54 [03:12] <pleia2> eps: it's not just simple hosting details we need, we need to know who is handling the relationship, administrative options, hardware, etc 55 [03:12] <eps> (2) you can have as many or as few administrators as you feel appropriate 56 [03:12] <pleia2> eps: can you reply to the mailing list thread? 57 [03:13] <jtatum> dragon: just saying we don't have to scrap appengine just because the main domain is hosted somewhere else 58 [03:13] <eps> (3) you'd be hosting Ubuntu *California* in *California*, not some embarrassing out-of-the-way place 59 [03:13] <jtatum> eps: linode is in california 60 [03:13] <jdeslip> so, it appears we are not ready for a vote, eh? 61 [03:13] <dragon> jtatum: sounds reasonable 62 [03:13] <eps> pleia2: no, I'm replying here, where the conversation is logged, and everyone gets to see it 63 [03:13] <pleia2> jdeslip: apparently not :( 64 [03:13] * pleia2 sighs 65 [03:13] <jtatum> surprised at all this discussion when *nobody* replied on the mailing list. 66 [03:13] <dragon> eps: I'm unable to follow your proposal. 67 [03:13] <jtatum> s/surprised/disappointed/. 68 [03:13] <pleia2> jtatum: +1 69 [03:13] <jledbetter> oh no he didn't 70 [03:14] <jdeslip> pleia2: how about we start a mailing list thread asking for specific (and detailed recommendations) which we can compile into another voting thread. 71 [03:14] <MarkDude> eps does have a point 72 [03:14] <eps> I've previously explained my problem with the mailing list 73 [03:14] <MarkDude> Is that not one of the intents of logging? 74 [03:14] <jdeslip> i.e. the only responses to the thread should be complete proposals 75 [03:14] <MarkDude> So others can see it? 76 [03:14] <akk> Anyone can see replies on the mailing list. 77 [03:15] <jdeslip> akk: agreed 78 [03:15] <pleia2> MarkDude: we've always logged meetings 79 [03:15] <eps> Well, if you've already made your decision, and you're just recruiting people to ratify it, we can do that. 80 [03:15] <nuboon2age_> btw, here's the announcement for the Peace Fair where Cameron Spitzer and i'l be repping for FLOSS on Dec 4th, http://www.sanjosepeace.org/article.php/20101108154316816 81 [03:15] <akk> That's a far more public way, because everyone can participate, not just people who are awake and logged in right now. 82 [03:15] <jdeslip> eps: No decision has been made - I quite frankly don't know what I'd vote for. 83 [03:15] <pleia2> eps: I appreciate your option, but we've been discussing this for months, 2 weeks ago we decided to get final proposals on the wiki, you made no effort since then to get us the details (not on irc, mailing list or wiki) 84 [03:16] <pleia2> we need to move forward at soem point 85 [03:16] <eps> The way I see it, there's no clear choice. Every option has advantages and disadvantages. 86 [03:16] <pleia2> until now, when we all thought our options were settled :( 87 [03:16] <eps> Then get the Wiki fixed. There's been a bug filed against moinmoin for longer than that. 88 [03:17] <pleia2> you could have emailed me (as I requested at the last meeting), or discussed it here 89 [03:17] <dragon> As far as I understand, we need to collect all the proposals on the wiki, not the mailing list. Why is mailing list in question at this point? 90 [03:17] <jdeslip> pleia2: eps: agreed we need to move forward. I think taking complete/final proposals in a mailing list thread and then voting on them by December 4th would be a good way forward. 91 [03:17] <eps> I *am* discussing it here. 92 [03:17] <pleia2> eps: now, after we closed the time for propsals a week ago 93 [03:17] <pleia2> dragon: we're trying to get feedback from folks on the mailing list too 94 [03:18] <eps> I've brought this up before; the logs will back me up. I'm not springing anything on you at the last minute. 95 [03:18] <nuboon2age_> i have to say that *does* look like a good proposal. as are the others 96 [03:18] <pleia2> jdeslip: ok, so I'll send a pretty much identical post to the list as my one last week, with eps' additional option? 97 [03:18] <pleia2> eps' proposal is a colo, so we also need hardware details 98 [03:18] <jdeslip> eps: discussing it on this channel does not constitute have submited a proposal 99 [03:18] <dragon> pleia2: yes, but that's not required as long as the proposal is documented in one place and is easy enough to refer to and follow, correct? 100 [03:18] <pleia2> and who is donating it 101 [03:19] <eps> The main downside with my proposal is non-zero cost. If there's something you can get for free, you don't have to think about how you're going to pay for it. 102 [03:19] <jdeslip> pleia2: I think a similar email with the final/complete proposals from the wiki page would be good. Making it clear that we are now seeking a vote. 103 [03:19] <pleia2> eps: think can you get that info this week? 104 [03:19] <eps> I have *zero* time to devote this week. 105 [03:19] <pleia2> jdeslip: ok 106 [03:19] <jdeslip> (as oppossed to further discussion) 107 [03:20] <pleia2> eps: how long do we need to wait for your full proposal? 108 [03:20] * MarkDude is aware that logging has always happened for meetings. 109 [03:20] <pleia2> I don't mind waiting another week, but I'd really like to move forward on this soon 110 [03:20] <pleia2> as the plan was to decide tonight 111 [03:21] <jledbetter> pleia2, +1 112 [03:21] <eps> All I can do right now is make you aware this option exists. Everything you need to know is already online. You may need to solicit a hardware donation, which I can't coordinate. 113 [03:21] <pleia2> ok, well for each proposal we need someone who can take ownership of coordinating it 114 [03:21] <eps> Anyone can follow up on this. 115 [03:22] <jdeslip> eps: unfortunately that isn't really good enough :/ - if you (or anyone else) wants an option considered, you have to champion it 116 [03:22] <jledbetter> pleia2, And if someone can't then maybe that means we can vote tonight? 117 [03:22] <akk> If we're not going to have another proposal, does that mean we can vote tonight? 118 [03:22] * akk high-fives jledbetter 119 [03:22] <jledbetter> boo yeah ;) 120 [03:22] <pleia2> +1 121 [03:22] <MarkDude> +1 122 [03:23] <jdeslip> I think a decision tonight would be fine, considering that nobody (except jtatum) had anything to add on the previous mailing list thread 123 [03:23] <pleia2> regarding using linode AND appengine - it would be similar to ubuntu-california.org planet.ubuntu-california.org gallery.ubuntu-california.org ... or for a live example, see: ubuntupennsylvania.org 124 [03:23] <dragon> I vote +1 for voting tonight if we don't have any more proposals to follow. 125 [03:23] <eps> I think you need to decide what your requirements really are before attempting to evaluate solutions. Otherwise, you're going to get stuck trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. 126 [03:23] <pleia2> I figure whatever appengine site we create it would be reallyneatthing.ubuntu-california.org 127 [03:24] <dragon> pleia2: such as www.ubuntu-california.org 128 [03:24] <jtatum> we can come up with a billion reasons to torpedo this OR we can do this NOW and get something online. i vote linode 129 [03:24] <pleia2> we already have california.ubuntuforums.org wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california.. etc 130 [03:24] <dragon> s/$/?/ 131 [03:24] <jdeslip> eps: I take it you do not have plans to submit a complete/final proposal this week? If not let's vote 132 [03:24] <pleia2> dragon: I think we need ubuntu-california.org and www.ubuntu-california.org to be the same site 133 [03:25] <jdeslip> I see three options being championed at this point with complete info on the wiki: 134 [03:25] <dragon> pleia2: agreed 135 [03:25] <nuboon2age_> i'd be okay with the idea of using linode for basic stuff and appengine for spiffy stuff 136 [03:25] <jdeslip> 1> 1. linode 137 [03:25] <jdeslip> 2. app-engine 138 [03:25] <jdeslip> 3. the linode-app-engine mix 139 [03:25] <pleia2> we should put canonical in the voting pot 140 [03:25] <jdeslip> 4. canonical 141 [03:25] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: +1 142 [03:25] <MarkDude> I wont be able to vote for the nogo on logging indexing for this channel- I need to run an errand. Please include my vote, I dont like the indexing :) 143 [03:26] <akk> Clarification: if we vote for linode that somehow precludes ever mixing in app-engine? 144 [03:26] <akk> I'm not sure what the difference is between 1 and 3. 145 [03:26] <pleia2> akk: no 146 [03:26] <nuboon2age_> ty MarkDude, i caught that. 147 [03:26] * MarkDude might be aback in time :) 148 [03:26] <MarkDude> Resistance is not futile :D 149 [03:27] <pleia2> akk: I think voting 3 means from the get-go we consider app-engine in every decision as far as our applications 150 [03:27] <pleia2> so if we want a blog, we look at wordpress on linode and appengine options 151 [03:27] <pleia2> I'd really like an option other than gallery2 for photos, if appengine could do something cool with photos I'd love it 152 [03:28] <eps> I'm confused about something: the description of Option 3 says "free application hosting" while the Google App Engine site says $8-$1000/mo. 153 [03:28] <MarkDude> app engine +1. We are geeks, lets just not go for the simplest idea to implement 154 [03:28] <pleia2> eps: the 8-1000 is business hosting, we're using the free options 155 [03:28] <akk> Whereas if we vote for 1, we look at what runs on wordpress unless someone comes forward and says "Hey, there's this great appengine solution that you should consider too"? 156 [03:28] <akk> s/runs on wordpress/runs on linode/ 157 [03:28] <pleia2> akk: yeah, I guess 158 [03:28] <dragon> I vote for 2. AppEngine 159 [03:29] <pleia2> we will do a formal vote in a few minutes 160 [03:29] <pleia2> MarkDude: we're not all geeks, that's part of the great thing about the ubuntu community :) and we use ubuntu, so shouldn't we host on a server that runs ubuntu? 161 [03:29] <dragon> pleia2: AppEngine runs on Ubuntu ;) 162 [03:30] <pleia2> ah, I didn't realize they released details like that 163 [03:30] <MarkDude> Well lets have an AOL style site then :) 164 [03:30] <MarkDude> Im just saying shiny is good for this particualr instance 165 [03:30] <pleia2> akk: is that slightly more clear? 166 [03:30] <jdeslip> Ok again: 167 [03:31] <jdeslip> 1. Linode - emphasis on wordpress / gallery2 apps 168 [03:31] <dragon> pleia2: they normally don't, but one of the officials ended up talking about it in a public meeting. 169 [03:31] <jdeslip> 2. Appengine hosting and apps 170 [03:31] <MarkDude> From what has been outlined the content wot be a blog, so eyecandy to attract people- like compiz is good 171 [03:31] <jdeslip> 3. Linode - but emphasis on appengine apps 172 [03:31] <jdeslip> 4. Canonoical 173 [03:31] <MarkDude> writing in fire is not useful, but it attracts people nonetheless :) 174 [03:32] <dragon> pleia2: I'd also like to propose the use of voting bot in this loco. I've seen it in action in other Ubuntu channels, though I'm unaware about its downsides. 175 [03:32] <pleia2> MarkDude: thanks, can you add design ideas at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Website/Design so we can keep track of your ideas? 176 [03:32] <pleia2> dragon: we can request mootbot be added here for meetings (I tend to like it) 177 [03:32] <pleia2> it does voting, as well as basic meeting minutes 178 [03:32] <dragon> +1 for having mootbot in -us-ca 179 [03:33] <nuboon2age_> +1 180 [03:33] <pleia2> any objections to moving forward with voting on hosting? 181 [03:33] <jdeslip> nope - lets do it 182 [03:33] <nuboon2age_> none here 183 [03:33] * dragon grabs the buzzer and prepares to vote 184 [03:33] <jdeslip> I'm tallying 185 [03:33] <pleia2> ok 186 [03:33] <pleia2> 1. Linode - emphasis on wordpress / gallery2 apps 187 [03:33] <pleia2> +1 188 [03:33] <jtatum> +1 189 [03:34] <akk> +1 190 [03:34] <pleia2> (if you miss the option because you weren't paying attention, it's ok, you can nudge jdeslip to add you to whatever option) 191 [03:34] <dragon> sorry for the interruption, but wouldn't it be easier to let people type 1, 2, 3, or 4 instead of doing +1 to each option? Or are we allowing voting for more than one option? 192 [03:34] <nuboon2age_> if i could vote twice i'd vote for both #1 and #2 (and am fine with #3 also) 193 [03:35] <pleia2> dragon: I'd say we can vote for more than one option 194 [03:35] <pleia2> 2. Appengine hosting and apps 195 [03:35] <eps> +1 196 [03:35] <dragon> nuboon2age, isn't 3 a mix of 1 and 2? ;) 197 [03:35] <nuboon2age_> yes dragon. :-) 198 [03:35] <nuboon2age_> so mine would be +1 to #1 and +1 to #2 199 [03:36] <pleia2> dragon: fwiw, voting with mootbot is done the way I'm doing it, so getting people used to this method is probably good :) 200 [03:36] <dragon> ah gotcha 201 [03:36] <jdeslip> (so yes, you can vote twice) 202 [03:36] <pleia2> can everyone vote with +1 to make it easy for jdeslip to count? anymore for for option 2? 203 [03:37] <jdeslip> so far we have 1 with 4 votes and 2 with 2 votes 204 [03:37] <dragon> +1 205 [03:37] <pleia2> 3. Linode - but emphasis on appengine apps 206 [03:37] <jdeslip> (and again you can vote more than once - so if you voted for 2, you may consider voting here again) 207 [03:37] <jdeslip> +1 208 [03:38] <nuboon2age_> +1 209 [03:38] <pleia2> +1 210 [03:38] <dragon> +0.8 211 [03:38] <jdeslip> LOL 212 [03:38] <jtatum> +1 213 [03:39] <pleia2> 4. Canonoical 214 [03:39] <pleia2> -1 215 [03:39] <pleia2> hehe 216 [03:39] <pleia2> (sorry, I host some stuff there already and it's painful) 217 [03:39] <akk> -1 218 [03:39] <dragon> I didn't realize we could do -1 as well. 219 [03:39] <pleia2> dragon: well, not really 220 [03:39] <dragon> so it's technically +0 221 [03:39] * eps will happily -1 #1 222 [03:39] <jdeslip> (I am not counting negative votes) 223 [03:40] <pleia2> dragon: yeah 224 [03:40] <dragon> eps: or +1 everything else 225 [03:40] <eps> dragon: nope 226 [03:41] <pleia2> #endvote 227 [03:41] <jdeslip> So, I counted 4 votes for #1, 3 votes for #2 and 4.8 votes for #3 228 [03:41] <pleia2> ok jdeslip, what's the verdict? 229 [03:41] <pleia2> ok, cool 230 [03:41] <dragon> One moment, please. 231 [03:41] <dragon> MarkDude said he wanted to vote for AppEngine, but then he left. 232 [03:42] <pleia2> ok, so 4, 4, 4.8 233 [03:42] <jdeslip> Either way, I think that leaves us #3 winning 234 [03:42] <nuboon2age_> looks that way. where's the .8 from btw jdeslip? 235 [03:42] <dragon> can I take my 0.8 back? ;) 236 [03:42] <pleia2> Agenda item 2: Next steps for the California site 237 [03:42] <pleia2> I think we need to put a team together to work on this 238 [03:42] <dragon> Just kidding. Since it's a tie breaker, I'm fine with #3. 239 [03:43] <pleia2> since dragon and I put forward proposals, I think we're both shoe-ins 240 [03:43] <dragon> \o/ 241 [03:43] <jdeslip> dragon: Thank you. 242 [03:43] <jdeslip> pleia2: agreed 243 [03:44] <pleia2> the team will need to sort out administrative access and discuss decisions to present to the team 244 [03:44] <eps> The next step is to take our logo, place a hard hat on the bear, and caption it "Under Construction" 245 [03:44] <jtatum> i would like to join the team. 246 [03:44] <jdeslip> Let's have pleia2 set something basic up on linode and then take app ideas requests and see how the can solved in app-engine 247 [03:45] <jledbetter> eps, Joke, right? 248 [03:45] <pleia2> eps, jdeslip +1 (although, under construction is a bit 1998 :)) 249 [03:45] <eps> jledbetter: Of course. "That's so 90's." 250 [03:45] <jledbetter> whew 251 [03:45] <pleia2> I'll toss something basic up that we can review 252 [03:45] <pleia2> we also need to decide which domain to use 253 [03:45] <jledbetter> I second jtatum's nomination 254 [03:45] <akk> All sites are always under construction. That should be a given. 255 [03:45] <nuboon2age_> eps: btw, ty for bringing up the other possibility, now that you've made me aware of it i may take advantage of it for other things. 256 [03:46] <jdeslip> I.e. once the basic structure is in place, the interested folks can get together and see what apps (app-engine and elsewise) will solve the job best 257 [03:46] <pleia2> jtatum: welcome to the team :) 258 [03:46] <pleia2> jdeslip: sounds good 259 [03:47] <jdeslip> shall we move on. I posted agenda item 3, but would like to defer it in order to save time. 260 [03:47] <pleia2> thanks jdeslip 261 [03:47] <pleia2> should we talk about the domain name at all? 262 [03:47] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: which one is #3? 263 [03:47] <jdeslip> I will talk to pleia2, nuboon2age privately to learn about planning a good Ubuntu Hour 264 [03:47] <pleia2> our options: ubuntu-us-ca.org ubuntu-california.org ubuntucalifornia.org 265 [03:48] <pleia2> -us-ca is a bit unusual, but teams throughout the country are kinda split on dash or no dash 266 [03:48] <pleia2> ubuntu-florida.org, ubuntupennsylvania.org 267 [03:48] <jdeslip> nuboon2age: it is the Ubuntu-Hour one. I wanted to learn more about planning one in the East Bay, but I'll chat with you privately about that. 268 [03:48] <nuboon2age_> oh, even if we put it later i think #3 is valuable jdeslip 269 [03:48] <dragon> Once we have a design in place, I can attempt to replicate it on AppEngine and create a code repository for it. Any objections keeping it FOSS? 270 [03:48] <eps> I like ubuntu-california.org with the others redirecting appropriately. 271 [03:48] <pleia2> eps: me too 272 [03:48] <jdeslip> pleia2: can't we use all of them? 273 [03:49] <pleia2> jdeslip: we need an official one to stick on posters and make sure never expires 274 [03:49] <jdeslip> eps: +1 275 [03:49] <pleia2> erichammond also regged net/com for each (grantbow did -us-ca.org) 276 [03:49] <jdeslip> pleia2: then I personally prefer ubuntu-california 277 [03:49] <akk> ubuntu-california.org looks prettier as long as we also have ubuntucalifornia.org redirecting. 278 [03:49] <akk> (non-geeks sometimes get confused by hyphens in urls) 279 [03:49] <jdeslip> akk: +1 280 [03:49] <pleia2> yeah, currently all the domains redirect to our wiki 281 [03:49] <nuboon2age_> ubuntu-california.org looks good to me 282 [03:50] <jledbetter> akk +1 283 [03:50] <pleia2> ok, sounds like we go with ubuntu-california.org with everything redirecting to it 284 [03:50] <jdeslip> Any desenters? 285 [03:50] <eps> The closes we can come to "never" is a ten-year registration. This should be less expensive than annual renewal. 286 [03:50] <dragon> we're talking "ubuntu dash california dot org" vs "ubuntu california dot org". I vote for former being used and latter being redirected to former. 287 [03:50] <dragon> pleia2: +1 288 [03:50] <eps> s/closes/closest 289 [03:50] <jledbetter> hyphens in urls? icky 290 [03:51] <jdeslip> It seems unanimous 291 [03:51] <pleia2> eps: I meant that we're diligent about keeping it renewed, not a 100 year renewal :) 292 [03:51] <philipballew> people could easily get confused with a hyphen 293 [03:51] <pleia2> yeah, so if they type in ubuntucalifornia.org it'll work too 294 [03:51] <pleia2> but we'll put the one with the dash in our stuff so it's easy to read 295 [03:52] <pleia2> I'll follow-up with erichammond regarding DNS and get the basics rolling on the linode 296 [03:52] <jdeslip> great 297 [03:53] <pleia2> ok, skipping jdeslip's agenda item 298 [03:53] <jledbetter> doesn't hurt to forward and analytics can be set up to handle it as one 299 [03:53] <pleia2> Agenda item 4: Discuss blocking of indexing of irc log 300 [03:53] <dragon> I've registered ubuntu-california.appspot.com. Adding pleia2 and jdeslip as admins/owners now. 301 [03:53] <pleia2> thanks dragon 302 [03:53] <jdeslip> sounds good dragon 303 [03:54] <nuboon2age_> okay, so it's my sense that many have spoken out in favor of blocking indexing and no one really strongly against, so i'm just wondering how far along we are with it and when we'll get it done? 304 [03:54] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: I think we need someone to take this to the irc-council 305 [03:54] <jledbetter> I thought we just needed to get robots.txt updated 306 [03:54] <eps> Is there any precedent for this? 307 [03:54] <pleia2> unfortunately we don't control indexing on irclogs.ubuntu.com directly 308 [03:54] <pleia2> eps: nope 309 [03:54] <jdeslip> So to summarize this issue: the LoCo council has instigated the logging and the mechanism. This is NOT something either our team or the leadership can vote on. 310 [03:54] <pleia2> currently everything on irclogs.ubuntu.com is available for indexing, a team has never requested that it not 311 [03:55] <nuboon2age_> has anyone brought this up with the irc-council yet? 312 [03:55] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: not that I'm aware of 313 [03:55] <jdeslip> nuboon2age_: not in any official way at least 314 [03:55] <pleia2> I know they discussed the indexing issue at UDS and are keen to have options, but I don't know where it landed or who is involved with the discussion 315 [03:55] <nuboon2age_> personally i'm not against logging, just against indexing 316 [03:55] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: would you be willing to take up the teams concerns with the ircc ? 317 [03:56] <akk> It would be good to find out whether there will ever be any chance of public discussion. 318 [03:56] <eps> No matter what you do, someone is going to republish excerpts out-of-context. 319 [03:56] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: yes, though i'm at a bit of a disadvantage in that i'm an ubuntu newbie 320 [03:56] <jdeslip> I am personally for both logging and indexing... (I believe all public info should be indexable) 321 [03:57] <jdeslip> but, this is not a personal or even team issue. This is an official Ubuntu channel; so it is an Ubuntu issue. The proper way to propose change here is through the LoCo council. 322 [03:57] <nuboon2age_> okay i didn't realize that was your PoV jdeslip, good to know 323 [03:57] <dragon> I'm neutral at this point, and need to hear more about the issue before I make up my mind. What are the advantages of not having the channel indexed? 324 [03:58] <nuboon2age_> well i'm not trying to set the policy for all of Ubuntu LoCos, just ours jdeslip 325 [03:58] <pleia2> so perhaps once we learn whether it's possible, we discuss it here further? 326 [03:58] <pleia2> it would be great to see an option for each channel to turn on/off indexing, as the team decides 327 [03:58] <nuboon2age_> dragon: i've personally experienced cyberstalking, and googling for any/all info on a person is the easiest way to cyberstalk 328 [03:59] <dragon> pleia2: +1 for letting teams control indexing decisions 329 [03:59] <eps> The TOS explicitly states that all logs will be indexed. 330 [03:59] <akk> dragon: And you can't chat casually if you're self-editing knowing every word will still be findable 50 years from now. 331 [03:59] <nuboon2age_> i have colleagues that have experienced severe, over the top cyber- and then in-person stalking 332 [03:59] <pleia2> eps: right, this is a policy we're looking to change, so we need to take it to the folks who control it 333 [03:59] <jdeslip> pleia2: I think it would be good to have our team decide as well. 334 [04:01] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: since you're admittedly new to ubuntu, would you like me to talk to jussi and see what we need to do to get the policy adjusted? (I don't have time to champion this issue, but getting you on the right track might help) 335 [04:01] <nuboon2age_> nhaines: i understood your previous chats as being in favor of blocking indexing. is this correct? 336 [04:01] <jbermudes> Our LoCo should vote to determine if this is an issue that concerns the LoCo and that we would like to start a discussion with the IRC/LoCo council as well as other LoCos. This is an important test of what degree of autonomy LoCos have. 337 [04:01] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: yes that'd be great 338 [04:03] <pleia2> jbermudes: based on discussion over the past month, I think people dislike logging, but hate indexing more, we can vote but I think it'd just be a formality 339 [04:03] <jdeslip> jbermudes: We could vote, but we couldn't do anything about the vote. Logging/indexing is currently set up through the council, so we need someone interested in the change to propose it. 340 [04:04] <dragon> jdeslip: before we propose it, we need to be sure that we're going to turn it off as soon as we have control of it. 341 [04:04] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: as above i'm okay with speaking up for it, but would like some help from more experienced Ubunteros 342 [04:04] <dragon> Otherwise the effort wouldn't be a productive one. 343 [04:05] <dragon> I'd vote for logging and against indexing. 344 [04:05] <jdeslip> Does anyone other than me think indexing is actually a good idea? (I.e. for the potential help google gives people searching for resolutions to issues and searching past discussions?) 345 [04:05] <akk> It would be a win even if we could just get them to open it to public discussion. There might be other LoCos who care as well. 346 [04:06] <nuboon2age_> i can see those points, but it is out weighed for me by the reality of violation of privacy jdeslip 347 [04:06] <pleia2> akk: agreed, I'll talk to jussi about this point too 348 [04:06] <jdeslip> I think pleia2 is right, and group members are generally against indexing, so no vote is really necessary, if I am the only pro-indexing fool :) 349 [04:06] <crashsystems> I like the idea of non-indexed time limited logs behind a captcha. Perhaps three months or something like that. 350 [04:06] <akk> jdeslip: I've had google direct me to IRC logs when I was trying to solve a tech issue, and it's always been a disaster -- 1000 lnes of which the relevant ones are scattered across 200 lines. 351 [04:07] <pleia2> crashsystems: yeah, logs which are vaguely restricted should certainly be part of this discussion 352 [04:07] <akk> jdeslip: Now if I see an IRC log in that sort of search, I don't even bother looking. 353 [04:07] <pleia2> I think we're going to move toward wrapping this meeting up 354 [04:07] <dragon> akk: +1 355 [04:07] <pleia2> I'll talk with jussi and touch base with nuboon2age_ and others who are interested, and we take things from there? 356 [04:07] <jtatum> jdeslip: i think indexing is inevitable, and that the logs aren't terribly useful unless they can be searchedâ€¦ so i guess that makes me for it 357 [04:07] <jdeslip> akk: but that is a problem for the search engines algorithm... not for us to solve it for it them I think 358 [04:07] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: even if its 'after' the meeting i'd be happy to discuss #3 359 [04:08] <pleia2> I'd like to see this be a public discussion too, so hopefully we'll get that :) 360 [04:08] <akk> Sounds good, pleia2! (And I'm interested too, and happy to participate in a discussion.) 361 [04:08] <jdeslip> nuboon2age_: thanks, I have to run pretty soon though. Perhaps I'll catch you on here tomorrow? 362 [04:08] <pleia2> ok, anything else to add before we wrap up the meeting? 363 [04:09] <nuboon2age_> okay or whenever jdeslip 364 [04:09] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: so hopefully y'all would guide me in how to proceed 365 [04:09] <jdeslip> I'd like add a thank you to pleia2 for running the meeting! 366 [04:09] <pleia2> thanks for coming everyone :) 367 [04:10] <jledbetter> Thank you pleia2 :) 368 [04:10] <nuboon2age_> ty pleia2 369 [04:10] <jtatum> +1 370 [04:18] <jdeslip> OK, good night all. Happy short work week!