Ubuntu Wiki

Discussion for upcoming Ubuntu Forum Council Meetings.

May 18th

This was sent to me by Arnav (arnieboy) from automatix for discussion at the upcoming FC meeting. - Ryan Troy (ubuntu-geek)

-- Begin --

1) Ubuntuforums and Automatix need to co-operate with each other.

Both Automatix and Ubuntu Forums are major contributors to Ubuntu in differing ways. It is in the best interest of both projects to co-operate and live harmoniously.

Support for any application is best given by the developers of the application in question. This is where a misunderstanding seems to have come in between Automatix and Ubuntu Forums.

To elaborate, let us consider any software in Ubuntu Universe repositories and how it is supported. We need to remember that Canonical does not officially support any package in Ubuntu Universe. The support in this case comes from the developers, sometimes the packagers (in this case the MOTU) and the rest of the community who have used and know a bit about the application in question. This constitutes community support.

Automatix is no different in this regard. Automatix's developers and packagers are the same people and they provide support for Automatix as do some of its users who know a bit about how Automatix works. Statements made by Ubuntu Forum staff members like "Automatix is not supported by the community" is therefore a gross mistake. This is the misunderstanding we are trying to clear up.

Ubuntu Forums is a interface where the community meets to discuss Free Software and help one another by providing advice and support. Plenty of "unofficial" software is supported by the Ubuntu community on these forums. For example, Azureus and VMware are third party projects that receive community support on the Ubuntu Forums. Automatix should receive the same courtesy on Ubuntu Forums when it comes to voluntary community support. Recommendations on Automatix made by its users and support given by the community for the same should not be stifled.

2) Forum policy with regard to Automatix needs to be amended.

When Automatix was first created it was simply a "helper script" like Easy Ubuntu. Since then a lot of good work has gone into Automatix starting with the switch to a python interface and a lot of other under-the-hood enhancements which merits it a position in the category of "script-based package managers". We are constantly improving and evolving as any good software should and not only adding features which are required in modern package managers but also creating new ideas such as a palette for the user-based configuration of software which Automatix installs. Syncing Automatix with Synaptic would be our next step forward. We ask that Automatix now be referred to as a "script-based package manager" and not a "helper script" and not be clubbed with Easy Ubuntu and other scripts.

We also ask that the forum policy be amended to clarify that voluntary community support and recommendation of Automatix is welcomed on the Ubuntu Forums. The current policy states the following:

"Ubuntu Forums does not provide support for Automatix, EasyUbuntu, or any other unofficial method of installing software. We recommend, to receive assistance, that you find the direct channel to the project developer(s) before you decide to use one of these scripts."

This may lead people to believe that they should not recommend and provide voluntary community support for Automatix on Ubuntu Forums. If other community-maintained software (such as azureus and mplayer) is allowed to receive community support and recommendation on Ubuntu Forums, so should Automatix. However, it also could be added in the policy that the best support for Automatix can be received in the Automatix Forums (and that is a good thing since not all community-maintained software have their own support forums).

Edit conflict - other version:

=== To Points 1 & 2===

1) Ubuntuforums and Automatix need to co-operate with each other.

Relationships are give and take. For a relationship to work, regardless of its excesses, one must assume each party "contribute" to the greater good that such a relationship hopes to foster. With that in mind, what is Automatix willing to give in support of this "relationship"? How do the forums benefit? How does the community benefit from this relationship? In the past such a relationship was tumultuous and torrid. It lead to numerous breaks in both Forum and CoC Policy. Both by the users, and the developers of Automatix itself. Constant Flamewars and harsh language on the parts of many or all involved. Can there be assurances this wont occur again, if such a relationship were to reoccur?

Edit conflict - your version:

To Points 1

1) Ubuntuforums and Automatix need to co-operate with each other.

Relationships are give and take. For a relationship to work, regardless of its excesses, one must assume each party "contribute" to the greater good that such a relationship hopes to foster. With that in mind, what is Automatix willing to give in support of this "relationship"? How do the forums benefit? How does the community benefit from this relationship? In the past such a relationship was tumultuous and torrid. It lead to numerous breaks in both Forum and CoC Policy. Both by the users, and the developers of Automatix itself. Constant Flamewars and harsh language on the parts of many or all involved. Can there be assurances this wont occur again, if such a relationship were to reoccur?

End of edit conflict

Comments added by bodhi.zazen

~ I will try to make the meeting, but I may not be able as there is a conflict with my work schedule ~

Hmm ...

Automatix a big contributor to Ubuntu ? ROFL, let me dry me eyes ....

• 1) Ubuntu forums and Automatix need to cooperate with each other.

err, why ? Ubuntu runs just fine without Automatix and arni has his own forums. That is like saying that since Ubuntu is derived from Debian the Ubuntu forums need to support Debian users. And then the argument would extend to Mepis, Freespine, Mint, Elive, Xandros, sidux, .... the list is endless ....

I agree though that Feisty is more new user friendly then Hoary ... but that is NOT due to Automatix !

Supporting Universe Developers =! Supporting automatix. If arnie wants to "help" Ubuntu he needs to learn to use apt-get and familiarize himself with the CLI and then help new users to learn those skills as well, not create some kind of independent infrastructure which lacks any type of education for new users and hides system admin until it is too late ...

• 2) Forum policy with regard to Automatix needs to be amended.

I agree. The current policy is like a wet noodle and does not caution enough against breakage. Excessive use of automatix has been clinically proven to cause total neocortical failure (brain death).

As far as I can tell arnie and the UF have incompatible goals and it is no loss to either party to have automatix maintain a separate site. In the long run this is in the interest of arnie as well. Let him learn the responsibility of running his own project and let him then develop a track record of contributing to Ubuntu without the flame wars on the Forums. Then let him come back with a proposal of how he can enhance the Ubuntu Forums because right now it seems a one way street ... have a problem with Ubuntu ? use automatix ... Where is his contribution back to the community ? Where is his support when automatix fails ?

The current standard is:

• "When posting your Tutorials & Tips thread the following is required to be included. 1) Credit to the base of your info unless you wrote the guide from scratch. 2) The version of Ubuntu you tested it on this including architecture (eg. 32/64bit). 3) A detailed explanation of what the guide/script/etc does. 4) A complete list of what is needed to install the program/script/etc in your guide. 5) A way of uninstalling or undoing any changes made 6) All commands posted in the thread should be on separate lines and please use the CODE tags so they are easier to read. 7) You must be willing to support the guide you post *OR* post a warning that there is no support, and the guide is to be used at your own risk."

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?&t=316820

does arnie conform to these standards ? I think not.

IMO his request should be rejected and he can be given a set of homework projects (which he is likely incapable of achieving, but if he does, then the issue could be re-visited) and an opportunity to contribute back to Ubuntu.

Obviously, in this case, because of the nature of automatix, "post a warning that there is no support, and the guide is to be used at your own risk." is unacceptable.

Comments added by Travis Newman

Automatix is NOT a package manager, it merely automates the use of another package manager, as well as using helper scripts to do manual installations. Its purpose is almost exactly the same as EasyUbuntu, it just does more. Therefore, if EasyUbuntu is a helper script, so is Automatix.

Comments added by bodhi.zazen

Well, I had a something come up so I can not make the meeting ...

There are obviously several issues here, but my concern is one of communication. IMO we should separate Automatix from the Ubuntu Forums. The reason is not so much "anti-automatix" as much as it is anti-flame wars. I do not see the flame war, such as it is, as being productive to either Ubuntu or Automatix. I do not see resolution by any means other then separation of Automatix and the Ubuntu Forums.

I was given a piece of advice on the issue that I would share.

IMO on the Ubuntu forums we should :

1. Advise the user to Automatix forums.
2. Advise the user on how to fix their problem OUTSIDE of automatix.