This is the 16th meeting of the ServerTeam, starting at 21:00 UTC and finishing at 22:41 UTC.

Agenda

Items we will be discussing:

• Start a Mentoring program - MathiasGug

• Review ACTION points from previous meeting.

• Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.

• Agree on next meeting date and time.

Minutes

Start a Mentoring program

mathiaz proposed the idea of starting a mentoring program for the Server team, inspired by the MOTU and the Documentation Team mentoring programs. keescook asked if it would be joined with the MOTU mentoring program. mathiaz said it wouldn't, explaining that potential mentees could get involved in documentation, bug triaging, and not just packaging.

ScottK2 stated that the MOTU mentoring program wasn't such a great success in his opinion. He added that starting yet-another mentoring process divides the communities, with mentees not being integrated in the teams directly (separate mailing lists and IRC channels). He highlighted the need to use existing communication channels to integrate new contributors rather than opening new ones.

soren suggested to use the MOTU mentoring program and add a server flavor to it. He also clarified that the MOTU mentoring program is not only about packaging, but has a broader scope.

faulks and nxvl added that having a mentor would help them getting involved in the server team.

ACTION: mathiaz to send an email about the mentoring program proposal to ubuntu-server and talk with daniel holbach about using the MOTU mentoring process.

Review ACTION points from previous meeting

soren is writing his interview for UWN about the state of virtualization in hardy.

Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap

Bug triaging

zul triaged a lot of bugs related to the server team. Most of the samba bugs have been looked at now.

dendrobates stated that focusing on openldap would help as openldap 2.4 has been uploaded to hardy and bugs are pouring in since then.

ACTION: mathiaz to update the bug triager section of the roadmap to highlight openldap.

SNI support in apache2

mathiaz looked into adding SNI support to apache2. It requires a rebuild of openssl in order to enable TLS extension in it. That means an ABI bump. He is not sure if this should be done at this stage of the release cycle. He has also uploaded openssl and apache2 packages that should work in his ppa [1]. He is now working on defining a test plan.

[1]: https://launchpad.net/~mathiaz/+archive

ACTION: mathiaz to talk with slangasek about an ABI bump in openssl for hardy.

Documentation

sommer stated that the Server Guide is going well. Last week has seen the update of the security section done by a new contributor. The guide is maintained in bzr [2].

sommer is still working on the kvm virtualization section.

[2]: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs.

KVM Virtualization in Hardy

soren said that version 60 of KVM had been integrated in the kernel and the user space had been updated accordingly. He also added the new virtio stuff that massively improves I/O on the guest. However special arguments need to be passed to KVM to enable it. He is working on getting that into libvirt.

The current version should fix gfxboot screen on Hardy Isos. Using KVM to test Hardy Live-CD is still a bit rough for now, but soren is working on fixing KVM and X to improve the situation.

Windows authentication integration

dendrobates said that 4.0.4 should be uploaded in universe by tomorrow. This new version includes a new gtk based GUI to join an AD domain. There is also a CLI.

mathiaz suggested to add a note to the Release Notes for Alpha 4 [3].

[3]: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron/Alpha4

ACTION: dendrobates will add a section to the Alpha 4 Release Notes about windows integration.

UFirewall

jdstrand reported that he added a section in the Release Notes for Alpha 4 about Uncomplicated Firewall. He's also received some feedback from nxvl and sommer that tested it. jdstrand put up some directives about testing it on the wiki page [4].

[4]: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFirewall

AppArmor profiling

mathiaz asked keescook whether AppArmor discussion should be handled during the SecurityTeam meeting [5]. kesscook said he'd rather discuss profiling work in the server team and infrastructure work in the Securiy meeting.

mathiaz added that pitti asked if a profile for the ISC dhcp client was still worked on. He'd like to replace the de-rooting patch with an apparmor profile.

jdstrand said he was working on profiles for mysqld, named and slapd. Help in testing them once they're ready is welcome.

[5]: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting

MIR process for server related packages

zul almost finished all of the MIR writing [6]. He also added that he agrees with the rejection of bacula and that drbd is now included in linux-ubuntu-modules.

[6]: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview

ACTION: zul will send an email to ubuntu-server about bacula in main.

Iscsi support in Hardy

zul fixed iscsitarget and plans to get it included in linux-ubuntu-modules.

Xen support

zul uploaded the final xen patch for 2.6.24 and xen-3.2 final should hit the archive real soon now.

mathiaz asked if xen would work with libvirt. dendrobates said it should, but this needs to be tested.

ACTION: dendrobates to test xen support in libvirt.

libdb transition

ScottK2 raised the issue of libdb transition. Most of the packages have been transitioned. He has a list of packages that still require libdb4.2.

ACTION: ScottK2 to add a point in the Roadmap section about libdb4.2 transition.

Agree on next meeting date and time

Next meeting will be on Wednesday, February 6th at 21:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting.

Guide Lines

The meeting moderator will ensure key points are discussed. Key points from the Agenda will be noted by [TOPIC] Agenda item. When ideas are put forward to be considered they should be noted by [IDEA] Idea. The meeting moderator will indicate the final state of each topic by [ACTION] Action being taken. This should signify that the topic is discussed and the meeting is moving forward. The meeting moderator will use special tags to start and end the meeting and its recording. Please see MootBot for details on specific tags.

IRC LOGS

Started logging meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
[21:03:34] <mathiaz> The agenda for today is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[21:04:27] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Start a Mentoring program
[21:04:43] <mathiaz> So I'd like to talk about starting a mentoring program for the server team
[21:04:57] <nxvl_work> it would be great
[21:05:06] <nxvl_work> so more people can be involved on the team
[21:05:08] <mathiaz> The MOTU team and the Documentation have similar programs in order to attract more contributors
[21:05:18] <nxvl_work> (and i can get a little help starting :P)
[21:05:27] <ScottK2> The MOTU program has not, in my opinion, been a resounding success.
[21:05:28] <keescook> mathiaz: would it be joined to MOTU mentoring in some way, or is this above and beyond "regular" MOTU mentoring?
[21:05:32] * ScottK2 doesn't really like it.
[21:05:50] <mathiaz> keescook: it wouldn't be related to the MOTU mentoring process.
[21:05:50] <soren> ScottK2: Why?
[21:06:12] <ScottK2> Because it divides the community up.
[21:06:13] <mathiaz> there are different activities that can be mentored in the server team, not only packaging
[21:06:13] <faulkes-> I think it would be of value (as I'm new here), getting involved would make it easier for new people
[21:06:14] <soren> ScottK2: Not "why wasn't it a success", but "why don't you like it"?
[21:06:18] <ScottK2> Right
[21:06:20] <mathiaz> like bug triagging or documentation
[21:06:46] <ScottK2> There are separate mentoring lists, etc and so people go there and don't get known in the community.
[21:07:05] <ScottK2> It raises the barrier to entry on the regular MOTU ML/IRC.
[21:07:09] <mathiaz> ScottK2: I don't think we should copy exactly what has been done for MOTU
[21:07:15] <ScottK2> OK.
[21:07:24] <mathiaz> I like the way the documentation team is doing it.
[21:07:32] * ScottK2 isn't familiar with that.
[21:07:40] <mathiaz> I like also the concept of the MOTU reception.
[21:07:40] <sommer> I was just going to mention the doc team's mentoring
[21:07:52] <soren> ScottK2: I see what you saying about dividing the community, but I think a server specific mentoring program might lure a different demographic to help us out.
[21:08:26] <mathiaz> the documentation team requires potential candidates to sent out an email to the ubuntu-doc to ask for a mentor.
[21:08:44] <Daviey> Who is the target audience for a mentoring program?
[21:08:53] <mathiaz> I wonder if the MOTU reception system would be better
[21:09:02] <ScottK2> Additionally, the existance of a mentoring program leads to people believing it's required to start contributing.
[21:09:11] <mathiaz> Daviey: people that want to get involved in the Server Team but don't really know how
[21:09:22] <ScottK2> mathiaz: That's the start of dividing the community.
[21:09:27] <soren> How about if we "market" an Ubuntu Server mentoring program that is really part of the regular motu mentoring program, but we assign server-types as mentors? It wouldn't have to be totally separate.
[21:09:36] <nxvl_work> mathiaz: on the MOTU they have a track of who is mentoring who, and a queue of the available mentors
[21:09:40] <ScottK2> Unless you're in the mentoring program you have no idea who is there. It's completely separate.
[21:09:41] <mathiaz> some people know exactly what they wanna do, others not really.
[21:09:54] <Daviey> mathiaz: yes, other than social aspects of how the team works, how to contribute etc - i mean on a technical level, what would the mentor recieve?
[21:10:21] <mathiaz> soren: linking the mentoring program to the MOTU would focus mentees on packaging
[21:10:46] <mathiaz> I think the server mentoring program should have broader scope
[21:10:53] <soren> mathiaz: Not necessarily. The MOTU mentoring program isn't exactly a static entity.
[21:11:00] <mathiaz> As I already said: documentation, bug triagging, etc..
[21:11:04] <\sh> mathiaz, I think you need a focus on people who are dealing with ubuntu/debian servers in real world environments...
[21:11:19] <nxvl_work> mathiaz: but you can ask the motu-mentors team to manage a second queue for server team
[21:11:29] <mathiaz> soren: IIUC MOTU mentoring is about packaging
[21:11:32] <soren> So far, it has been focused on getting new packagers on board, but it's open to people who just want to help fixing bugs here and there.
[21:11:38] <ScottK2> In my experience anyone who is afraid to ask a question via ML or IRC isn't likely to be much help in the long run.
[21:11:40] <nxvl_work> mathiaz: no, it isn't
[21:11:53] <mathiaz> soren: ok - I missed that change of focus then.
[21:12:01] <nxvl_work> mathiaz: it is about packaging, community, and all the aspects of the ubuntu-developing
[21:12:16] <soren> My point is:
[21:12:25] <nxvl_work> but also a mentor is not always behind you saying what to do, just put goals on you and is there is you need some help
[21:12:27] <soren> We can advertise a server mentoring program..
[21:12:41] <soren> if people sign up for it, we'd have people mentoring them.
[21:12:41] <soren> but
[21:12:55] <\sh> soren, you mean we need sysadmins filing bugs, knowing eventually how to fix the issue etc. not the ubuntu desktop user using a local apache2 on his/her homemachine
[21:12:59] <soren> it could be part of the MOTU mentoring program. It wouldn't have to be completely separate from it.
[21:13:16] <nxvl_work> soren: i will be the first one signed up XP
[21:13:25] <nxvl_work> XD
[21:13:30] <soren> If we find that Ubuntu would benefit from a change to the MOTU mentoring process, we can just propose it.
[21:13:36] <ScottK2> nxvl_work: What would you hope to get out of it you can't get already?
[21:14:01] <nxvl_work> ScottK2: good point :S
[21:14:14] <mathiaz> May be we can advertise the MOTU mentoring process on the ServerTeam pages then
[21:14:16] <ScottK2> Is a serious question.
[21:14:25] <ScottK2> mathiaz: To what benifit?
[21:14:43] <soren> I'd love to see the mentoring program expand to have domain specific branches as well.
[21:14:47] <mathiaz> ScottK2: get more people aware of this program
[21:14:58] <nxvl_work> mmm
[21:15:00] <mathiaz> soren: aggred - that's my point.
[21:15:09] <ScottK2> OK.
[21:15:23] <mathiaz> people come to Ubuntu using different paths
[21:15:35] <ScottK2> I'll say I'm against it because I don't think it helps.
[21:15:50] <nxvl_work> ok, about the cuestion of ScottK2, i find a mentoring program usefull for new developers that have really noob cuestions and they will not ask on the ML
[21:15:51] <soren> People might not be looking to "become a MOTU", but just "want to help out with server stuff". It's not obvious at first sight that one implies the other.
[21:15:53] <mathiaz> so the earlier they have signs about how to contribute the better
[21:16:04] <nxvl_work> BUT
[21:16:13] <mathiaz> ScottK2: but I aggree with you that we shouldn't duplicate processes.
[21:16:28] <nxvl_work> i'm also agree with ScottK2 that they can ask on the ML and IRC, as i have done se far, and is the same
[21:16:34] <mathiaz> ScottK2: If the MOTU mentoring can be used for server-oriented folks, I'm all for it.
[21:16:37] <nxvl_work> there is always someone that helps
[21:16:51] <mathiaz> soren: exactly.
[21:16:58] <ScottK2> The problem is that once you push 'noob questions' off on a mentoring program, the barrier to entry just becomes higher and the problem gets works.
[21:17:23] <soren> ScottK2: How do you figure that?
[21:17:33] <nxvl_work> i think it will be better to participate on the MOTU mentoring program and teach server specific things for the ones who are interested on it
[21:17:34] <faulkes-> to interject, asking a question on IRC or an ML does not itself imply any commitment to the team, it's usually people looking for an answer to a problem they have
[21:17:37] <nxvl_work> starting from packaging
[21:17:52] <\sh> mathiaz, would you like to explain "server-oriented folks" to me? people having problems with the linux kernel on ubuntu-server are "server oriented" or "kernel oriented"? just asking for clarification?
[21:18:02] <ScottK2> soren: People don't ask basic questions because no one else does and they are afraid to look stupid. The more those questions get asked elsewhere, the more people are afraid.
[21:18:23] <mathiaz> \sh: by server-oriented, I mean people that have an interest in server related software
[21:18:37] <mathiaz> \sh: mainly sys admin in buisness and so on
[21:18:55] <ScottK2> Segragating new people off on another channel doesn't create more resources to answer questions.
[21:19:18] <soren> ScottK2: Well, some people make sure that the tone is #ubuntu-motu isn't always as friendly as one would like. If another place that is specifically meant for newbie questions existed, people who are afraid can just ask there. I don't see the problem.
[21:19:22] <mathiaz> they're not necessarly interested in doing packaging work. Their server experience could be helpfull in other areas
[21:19:46] <\sh> mathiaz, so the real problem is, that sysadmins using ubuntu on a server are not knowing about how to deal with a bug, e.g. filing bugs or where to push a bugfix to...right?
[21:20:22] <faulkes-> or add documentation / implementation guides
[21:20:28] <mathiaz> \sh: no.. That's not what I meant. I'm trying to get more contributors on board.
[21:20:40] <ScottK2> soren: OK. We'll have to agree to disagree then.
[21:20:50] <nxvl_work> soren: but as ScottK2 says, MOTU is tu separete, there is #ubuntu-classroom channel, motu-mentors list, so it's kind of saying newbies here, people who know there
[21:20:59] <mathiaz> \sh: how can we turn them from bug reported (for ex) to bug fixer
[21:21:15] <soren> If the alternative is that they just stay away...
[21:22:28] <nxvl_work> mathiaz: using more the "mentoring offered" option for example is a good place to start
[21:22:37] <mathiaz> ok - so to get tings moving, I think we should get in touch with the MOTU mentoring program to see if we can colaborate on this.
[21:22:48] <ScottK2> My experience when people have PM'ed me with questions that they thougth were too basic for the channel is that I asked them to work on channel so others could benifit from the answers and it was all fine.
[21:23:05] <nxvl_work> if a new contributor comes to the LP page, clicks on mentoring offered and only sees 4 options, they walk away
[21:23:13] <mathiaz> I'll talk with dholbach about it.
[21:23:17] <nxvl_work> and thats not what we want
[21:23:17] <faulkes-> maybe I can put this into perspective a bit, like I said, I'm new, I'm looking to get involved, however, having gone over the wiki, the team pages and what not, there is still quite a bit which eludes me from the perspective of "how do I specifically get involved with the server side of things"
[21:23:23] <ScottK2> soren: I think the alternative is to make the main channel of communication more open, not to make new ones.
[21:23:28] <\sh> mathiaz, the normal case for sysadmins dealing with bugs/problems on server based linux distros is: a) they know how to file bugs into the respective bug reporting tool b) they know how to create patches c) they know how to package software for the OS of their choice...therefore we have only to deal with people, who are not falling into the sysadmin case...therefore we need to find people of the MOTU basement who are interested in working on serv
[21:23:28] <\sh> er-related packages full-time
[21:23:55] <soren> ScottK2: I'd love to hear your ideas about that.
[21:23:56] <faulkes-> ScotK2: I would agree there, I don't think a #server-mentor or what not channel would be required
[21:24:29] <soren> Agreed.
[21:24:33] <mathiaz> faulkes-: would it help to have a mentor for the server team to help you get started ?
[21:24:58] <faulkes-> mathiaz: with specific reference to dealing with ubuntu based server issues and needs, yes
[21:25:00] <nxvl_work> we need to start making the communication channels more open to new contributors/basic questions
[21:25:07] <ScottK2> faulkes-: What keeps you from asking more questions on #ubuntu-server so you know better how to help out?
[21:25:09] <mathiaz> faulkes-: Is the Roadmap page to daunting ? Or the GettingInvolved page to general ?
[21:25:10] <soren> It doesn't have to be much more than just a notice on the wiki page that people can contact someone if they want to get involved. That someone can then be the mentor (or assign someone else to be the mentor), but it'd be part of the motu mentoring program.
[21:25:29] <nxvl_work> for example running QA sessions on the #ubuntu-server channel
[21:25:36] * nealmcb returns home
[21:25:46] <soren> hi, nealmcb.
[21:25:56] * mathiaz waves at nealmcb
[21:26:04] <soren> nxvl_work: That could work.
[21:26:38] <mathiaz> Ok - let's get moving. I wanted to start a discussion. There are a lot of idea about it.
[21:26:41] <faulkes-> Scottk2: nothing, I waited for the meeting as it was an item on the agenda
[21:26:46] <nxvl_work> BUT, we need to be carefull to make all the activities on the daily communication channels, not on new ones
[21:26:48] <ScottK2> OK.
[21:26:57] <ScottK2> +1 to nxvl_work
[21:27:10] <mathiaz> I'll send an email to ubunut-server to raise this question and get dholbach in the loop.
[21:27:35] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to send an email about a mentoring program proposal to ubuntu-server
[21:27:36] * sommer wants ScottK2 to be his mentor
[21:27:40] <nxvl_work> ok, let's discuss it on the list
[21:27:54] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[21:28:07] <mathiaz> Last meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080123
[21:28:10] <ScottK2> sommer: I'm always glad to answer questions and help out, but I'm not signing up for anything formal.
[21:28:33] <sommer> heh... just trying to through in some levity
[21:28:48] <mathiaz> soren: any news from UWN ?
[21:29:21] <soren> Er.. I'm writing my interview right now, actually :)
[21:29:40] <soren> It'll most likely be in the next edition.
[21:29:43] <mathiaz> soren: great !
[21:30:05] <mathiaz> other than that, I think all the action have been done (or will be reviewed later on)
[21:30:29] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
[21:30:44] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
[21:31:10] <mathiaz> zul: you've a look at a lot of bugs
[21:31:22] <zul> yep..
[21:31:30] <zul> most of them are in one state or another
[21:31:33] <mathiaz> zul: how is samba doing ?
[21:31:33] * soren hugs zul
[21:32:04] <zul> mathiaz: getting there most of its waiting to hear back from users
[21:32:07] <mathiaz> zul: I mean on the bug front
[21:32:15] * zul high fives soren
[21:32:26] <mathiaz> should we target another package ?
[21:32:56] <zul> i dont think so at this point we should talk to slangslek of course though
[21:33:04] <dendrobates> mathiaz: openldap perhaps
[21:33:22] <ScottK2> Make it talk with db4.6?
[21:33:36] <zul> isnt that a performance issue?
[21:33:38] <ScottK2> Actually there's an upstream db4.6 issue in that
[21:33:40] <ScottK2> Yes.
[21:33:46] <mathiaz> dendrobates: opendlap is already on the Roadmap.
[21:34:08] <mathiaz> dendrobates: May be we should link to all the openldap packages (openldap2.2, openldap2.3).
[21:34:18] <mathiaz> I though about openssh
[21:34:29] <mathiaz> it's never been on the Roadmap
[21:34:32] <dendrobates> mathiaz: I just want to remind everyone since new openldap bugs are pouring in since the update to 2.4
[21:34:58] <zul> #69948 looks interesting for openldap
[21:36:00] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to update the bug triagger section of the roadmap to highlight openldap
[21:36:29] <mathiaz> On the packaging front, there is apache2 stuff.
[21:36:41] <mathiaz> I had a look at SNI support for apache2 and got it working.
[21:36:59] * nealmcb hugs mathiaz
[21:37:06] <mathiaz> Unfortunately openssl has to be recompiled to enable tls extension.
[21:37:17] <ScottK2> Someone ought to look at http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=libapache2-mod-authnz-external too.
[21:37:35] <zul> its already in universe
[21:37:53] <mathiaz> according to the openssl debian maintainer it may require a abi bump
[21:38:16] <soren> mathiaz: "may"? Where's the patch?
[21:38:30] <mathiaz> soren: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=462596
[21:38:31] <ubotu> Debian bug 462596 in openssl "openssl: Please include support for tls extensions / server name indication" [Wishlist,Open]
[21:39:05] <mathiaz> soren: there isn't any patch for openssl. it's just a configure option at build that has to be added.
[21:39:31] <mathiaz> soren: but to get apache2 working with SNI, I first had to rebuild openssl, install it and rebuild apache2.
[21:39:56] <mathiaz> soren: otherwise apache2 would be compiled with SNI enabled.
[21:40:11] <soren> mathiaz: Right. As slangasek says: the structs are exposed in public header files, so changing them means an ABI bump.
[21:40:28] <soren> mathiaz: for openssl, that is.
[21:41:06] <mathiaz> soren: yop - so I'm not sure what would be the impact at this time of the release cycle.
[21:41:23] <soren> mathiaz: slangasek would be the person to ask.
[21:41:36] <mathiaz> soren: ok. I'll talk to him then.
[21:41:41] <soren> (He's the release manager in case anyone doesn't know)
[21:41:57] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to talk with slangasek about an ABI bump in openssl for hardy
[21:42:21] <mathiaz> I've uploaded openssl to my PPA
[21:42:29] <mathiaz> and once it's built, I'll upload apache2.
[21:42:42] <mathiaz> so that we can get started with testing.
[21:43:53] <dendrobates> ivoks: greetings
[21:43:56] * soren hugs mathiaz
[21:44:01] <mathiaz> ivoks: any news about dovecot/postfix ?
[21:44:02] <soren> mathiaz: awasome!
[21:44:08] <ivoks> hi
[21:44:09] * mathiaz waves at ivoks
[21:44:21] * ScottK2 wonders if lamont is here.
[21:44:24] <ivoks> still nothing :/
[21:44:32] <mathiaz> ivoks: ok.
[21:44:45] * lamont is somewhat here
[21:45:01] <mathiaz> sommer: what's going on on the documentation front ?
[21:45:10] <ScottK2> mathiaz: On that note - If we can get the amavisd-new MIR processed soon it'd be nice to integrate that with tasksel.
[21:45:39] <mathiaz> ScottK2: it's in the hand of the MIR team (ie pitti and doko).
[21:45:42] <sommer> mathiaz: still cruisin
[21:45:59] <ScottK2> mathiaz: So maybe you can enourage them.
[21:46:09] <mathiaz> sommer: is there any change in the milestone dates ?
[21:46:21] <sommer> mathiaz: not that I know of
[21:46:38] <sommer> I think they've been posted somewhere on the wiki
[21:46:56] <sommer> actually I'm not really 100% sure they're official
[21:46:57] * doko is not sure that we do want that in main ...
[21:47:07] <sommer> besides the final freeze
[21:47:30] <sommer> but since there hasn't been much discussion, I'd think everyone agrees
[21:47:40] <sommer> or doesn't have major objection
[21:48:03] <mathiaz> sommer: ok. I've seen a new contribution in the security section
[21:48:14] <ScottK2> doko: It'd be without the milter package so we don't need to bring Sendmail bits into Main.
[21:48:18] <sommer> ya, that's been really great working with him
[21:48:27] <soren> doko: Want what in main? amavisd-new?
[21:48:28] <sommer> hopefully we can cover more ground
[21:48:46] <mathiaz> sommer: the guide is maintained in bzr ?
[21:48:52] <sommer> still working on the virtualization section
[21:49:14] <mathiaz> sommer: has the wiki page wrote up by soren been usefull ?
[21:49:30] <sommer> mathiaz: yep: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs
[21:49:44] <soren> I rather consider it a scaffold on which to build proper documentation. :)
[21:50:02] <sommer> mathiaz: ya, I wasn't too sure how to integrate it with qemu, but I think soren cleared that up
[21:50:27] <soren> Did I? Er.. Ok, then :)
[21:50:29] <sommer> gilbert the other contributer may be working on a kvm section
[21:50:40] <sommer> soren: the other day :-)
[21:50:50] <soren> sommer: If you say so :D
[21:51:02] <mathiaz> there was some discussion in #ubuntu-server about it.
[21:51:23] <mathiaz> has the wiki page been updated wrt these discussion ?
[21:51:49] <sommer> mathiaz: the server roadmap, or the virtetc page?
[21:52:00] <mathiaz> sommer: viretc
[21:52:23] <sommer> not that I know, of... I plan to devote some time to it this weekend
[21:52:33] * soren hugs sommer
[21:52:35] <mathiaz> I'm refering to the kvm discussion in #ubuntu-server
[21:52:37] <sommer> if not before
[21:53:06] <sommer> mathiaz: gotcha, I'll do some updates with regards to qemu
[21:53:14] <mathiaz> sommer: great ! Thanks.
[21:53:28] <mathiaz> that leads us to the virtualization front
[21:53:33] <mathiaz> soren: any updates on this ?
[21:54:08] <soren> Since last meeting? Er..
[21:54:11] <soren> Well, yes.
[21:54:54] <soren> I got the kernel side of kvm updated. On the guest side, I've added the fancy new virtio stuff that massively improves I/O from inside the guest.
[21:55:10] <nealmcb> mathiaz: when was this kvm discussion in #ubuntu-server?
[21:55:13] <soren> On the host side, I've updated the kvm modules shipped with our kernel images to match what was released with kvm 60.
[21:55:32] <mathiaz> nealmcb: don't remember exactly - I think it was last week.
[21:55:47] <soren> This fixed a whole host (pun intended) of bugs. Most importantly, the gfxboot screen now shows up properly when booting a Hardy ISO.
[21:55:50] <mathiaz> nealmcb: I remember sommer asking question about it
[21:56:04] <sommer> nealmcb: feels more like around monday to me
[21:56:11] <soren> Er... Well, it will once the kernel is uploaded.
[21:56:17] <sommer> it was a short converstation
[21:56:36] <dendrobates> soren: I was about to object.
[21:56:41] <mathiaz> soren: so that means KVM can be used to test isos ?
[21:56:41] <soren> The virtio stuff is there, though. You need to pass special arguments to kvm to enable it, but I'm working on getting that into libvirt.
[21:57:02] <mathiaz> soren: I meant livecd isos specifically
[21:57:27] <soren> mathiaz: There's one more thing I need to a) fix in kvm (upstream bug) and b) fix in X, then it should be rocking.
[21:57:34] <soren> Right now, it's a bit... rough.
[21:57:53] <mathiaz> soren: excellent. That was pitti's main concern about kvm in hardy.
[21:58:50] <mathiaz> dendrobates: any news on likewise ?
[21:58:59] <dendrobates> mathiaz: yes.
[21:59:16] <dendrobates> mathiaz: I have packaged 4.0.4 and uploaded to chinstrap.
[21:59:40] <dendrobates> baring any issues, it should be uploaded to universe tomorrow.
[22:00:03] <dendrobates> the giu has been changed to gtk, which is much better.
[22:00:32] <mathiaz> dendrobates: how can it be tested ?
[22:00:54] <mathiaz> dendrobates: or what are the main features ?
[22:01:13] <mathiaz> dendrobates: If it's uploaded before Alpha 4, we should a section in the Release notes about it.
[22:01:18] <dendrobates> once it is uploaded, you can use it to join a windows domain
[22:01:33] <mathiaz> dendrobates: either from the command line or using the gui
[22:01:35] <dendrobates> with a cli or gui.
[22:01:37] <mathiaz> dendrobates: ?
[22:02:20] <mathiaz> dendrobates: could you add section the Release Notes for Alpha 4 ? or ask nijaba to take care of it ?
[22:02:28] <dendrobates> mathiaz: np
[22:02:53] <mathiaz> [ACTION] dendrobates will add a section to the Alpha 4 Release Notes about windows integration.
[22:03:11] <mathiaz> dendrobates: I've seen two emails (I think it was the same guy) asking about windows integration.
[22:03:31] <sommer> is alpha4 released tomorrow?
[22:03:59] <mathiaz> sommer: yes actually...
[22:04:08] <mathiaz> sommer: it may too late for the Release Notes then.
[22:04:18] <sommer> cool, couldn't remember exact date
[22:04:19] * mathiaz thought it was tuesday
[22:04:31] * jdstrand added something to the release notes today...
[22:04:37] <ScottK2> mathiaz: I think for the alphas it's on a wiki.
[22:04:46] <mathiaz> jdstrand: about UFW ?
[22:04:51] <jdstrand> mathiaz: yes
[22:04:59] <jdstrand> it is on the wiki-- let me get the url
[22:05:13] <mathiaz> ScottK2: yes - I think that all the release notes are prepared on the wiki
[22:05:24] <ScottK2> So there is no "to late"
[22:05:51] <jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron/Alpha4
[22:06:46] <mathiaz> jdstrand: is there more testing done on UFW ?
[22:07:17] <jdstrand> mathiaz: I wan't meaning to take over the conversation, but if you're ready for the ufw update...
[22:07:18] <nxvl_work> i have tested yesterday IIRC
[22:07:31] <mathiaz> jdstrand: please do
[22:07:43] <jdstrand> I sent an email to ubuntu-server and ubuntu-devel-discuss
[22:07:56] <jdstrand> I haven't heard much, excepting nxvl_work
[22:08:18] <jdstrand> it is in pretty good shape
[22:08:19] <jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFirewall
[22:08:37] <jdstrand> there are instructions on testing in the wiki
[22:08:55] <sommer> jdstrand: woops I forgot to give you some feedback, but I tried ufw out last week and it worked great
[22:09:11] <mathiaz> jdstrand: excellent. It may get more coverage once alpha4 is being published
[22:09:19] <sommer> haven't had a chance to test the new version though
[22:09:28] <jdstrand> sommer: great! check out 0.9
[22:09:43] <sommer> jdstrand: will do
[22:10:16] <mathiaz> jdstrand: keescook: now that there is security meeting, do you still wanna discuss apparmor and other bits in the server team meeting ?
[22:10:38] <mathiaz> or should it be moved to the security meeting ?
[22:10:48] <keescook> mathiaz: well, it overlaps
[22:10:59] <jdstrand> I'll mention that I hope to get some profile work and testing done soon
[22:11:02] <keescook> mathiaz: the profile work is, I think, more closely tied to server team work than security work
[22:11:09] <keescook> i.e. it's a per-service kind of thing
[22:11:11] <mathiaz> keescook: right.
[22:11:31] <keescook> so, unless there is objection, I'd like to keep the apparmor profiling discussion part of this meeting
[22:11:44] <mathiaz> keescook: WFM
[22:11:45] <keescook> and focus the "infrastructure" work in the security team
[22:11:45] <keescook> okay
[22:12:15] <mathiaz> pitti asked me if there was plans to create a profile for the dhcp client so that the derooting patch can be dropped.
[22:12:59] <mathiaz> If someone wants to get started with profile generation, that would be a very good starting point
[22:13:34] <jdstrand> since we are talking about profile generation-- I plan on doing slapd, named and mysqld
[22:13:49] <emgent> :)
[22:13:59] <jdstrand> some of those are in apparmor-profiles, so I'll do testing
[22:14:17] <mathiaz> jdstrand: excellent. I did generate them during last release cycle
[22:14:42] <mathiaz> zul: Thanks for all the MIR writing.
[22:14:47] <jdstrand> mathiaz: right, I hope to build on that and get them out of apparmor-profiles and into the package
[22:14:49] <mathiaz> zul: anything left on there ?
[22:14:50] <zul> no problem
[22:15:15] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview
[22:15:15] <zul> most of them are pending on the mir team i havent gotten to one yet
[22:15:22] <jdstrand> s/the package/their respective packages/
[22:15:33] <mathiaz> soren: iscsi stuff ?
[22:15:44] <zul> mathiaz: openhpi yet because I dont have a clue on that package
[22:15:49] <soren> No news, I'm afraid.
[22:16:03] <zul> i agree with fabio about bacula it shouldnt go into main either
[22:16:10] <mathiaz> zul: you mentionned you've fixed iscsi target
[22:16:23] <zul> yep, the kernel stuff is building with 2.6.24 now
[22:16:36] <zul> drbd kernel stuff is in the kernel-team's git archive
[22:16:46] <ScottK2> mathiaz: Last meeting I thought there was going to be a message to the server team ML about packages thrown out of the spec. Did I miss it?
[22:16:52] <mathiaz> zul: is it a package in universe ?
[22:16:58] <zul> mathiaz: yes
[22:17:04] <mathiaz> zul: do you plan to move it to ubuntu-modules
[22:17:15] <zul> mathiaz: i could
[22:17:19] <mathiaz> ScottK2: nope. I didn't send it.
[22:17:37] <zul> i thought I was just suppose to report back at the meeting
[22:17:40] <mathiaz> zul: OTOH it's really high priority.
[22:17:56] <zul> mathiaz: ill put it on my todo list then for tomorrow morning
[22:17:56] <mathiaz> zul: for hardy, we focus more on initiator
[22:18:26] <zul> consider it done
[22:18:51] <mathiaz> zul: could you send an email to ubuntu-server about the reason to drop bacula from the ServerPackageReview list ?
[22:18:52] <ScottK2> mathiaz: Please do.
[22:18:58] <zul> mathiaz: yep
[22:19:15] <sommer> is there another "enterprise" backup package in main?
[22:19:17] <mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will send an email to ubuntu-server about bacula in main
[22:19:31] <sommer> or integrated backup anyway
[22:19:45] <zul> amanda is in universe but that was rejected
[22:19:51] <mathiaz> sommer: not that I know of.
[22:20:05] <sommer> okay, just wondering for the backup section of the docs
[22:20:06] <mathiaz> zul: yep - the other option was amanda.
[22:20:26] <sommer> tar never let anyone down :-)
[22:20:28] <ivoks> we decided that bacula had more features
[22:20:56] <zul> yeah but it has a big gapping security hole
[22:21:05] <ivoks> right :/
[22:21:39] <mathiaz> zul: any news or plan on the xen front ?
[22:22:03] <zul> mathiaz: uploaded 2.6.24 final patch today will upload xen-3.2 final tomorrow
[22:22:22] <zul> er...the patch went to the kernel-team's git repo
[22:23:02] <mathiaz> is there any integration with libvirt ?
[22:23:17] <zul> not that I know of right now
[22:23:55] <nealmcb> a virtualization question occurred to me. are any virtual images of hardy available for testing under gutsy via kvm and the like? e.g. for testing server-related packages?
[22:23:58] <dendrobates> libvirt works with xen by default, unless soren has borked that.
[22:24:10] <soren> If I did, it wasn't on purpose :)
[22:24:10] <nealmcb> as opposed to isos that need installing....
[22:24:35] <zul> i always used xen-image-create :)
[22:24:37] <soren> nealmcb: We don't currently have "blessed" vm images, no.
[22:25:04] <nealmcb> are there plans to offer them? folks have wanted them in the past, and this would be a good time to start testing the build stuff
[22:25:36] <zul> well you could probably use jeos :)
[22:25:41] <mathiaz> it may be worth checking that xen can be integrated with soren's work on virtualization
[22:26:19] <zul> i can look into i
[22:26:23] <zul> it even
[22:26:44] <dendrobates> zul: can you put xen in a ppa?
[22:26:49] <zul> sure
[22:27:11] <nealmcb> zul: sure - jeos would be a popular one to start with, and a vm image would be lots more fun than an iso I think.
[22:27:13] <dendrobates> I'll test it out tomorrow
[22:27:56] <zul> dendrobates: ill put my kernel .debs on chinstrap for you as well
[22:28:27] <dendrobates> zul: ok
[22:28:37] <mathiaz> [ACTION] dendrobates to test xen support in libvirt.
[22:29:09] <mathiaz> ivoks: are you still working on [BOTTOM][TOP]Simplify storage management (RAID1 - LVM-on-RAID) during installation ?
[22:29:30] <mathiaz> ivoks: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#head-a36fb4f1b51aa401df3eb5d44fb737ddc5731cd0
[22:30:24] <ivoks> mathiaz: didn't touch it for weeks
[22:30:39] <ivoks> i'm kind on middle of exam period on faculty, so i have little time
[22:30:46] <mathiaz> ivoks: still working on it ?
[22:30:54] <ivoks> but i'll try work something out during next couple of days
[22:30:59] <mathiaz> ivoks: ok. great !
[22:31:12] <mathiaz> I think that's all for the roadmap review.
[22:31:24] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Another Business
[22:31:29] <mathiaz> Anything to add ?
[22:31:42] <ivoks> sorry late entrance :/
[22:31:49] <ivoks> ...for late...
[22:31:50] <nxvl_work> mathiaz: yes, the multiple ssl certs we talk about yesterday
[22:32:30] <nealmcb> what image format(s) would we supply? qcow2?
[22:32:39] <ScottK2> Can we talk about libdb transitions?
[22:33:24] <ScottK2> It seems most of the packages left on the older libdb releases has issues with on disk format chagnes.
[22:33:30] <ScottK2> chagnes/changes
[22:33:53] <mathiaz> ScottK2: I think pitti is working on getting libdb4.{234} out of main
[22:34:04] <mathiaz> ScottK2: you may wanna ask him about this.
[22:34:25] <ScottK2> mathiaz: Yes and we could probably get 2 and 3 out of Ubuntu entirely with a little work.
[22:34:41] <ScottK2> 4.2 is down to about a half dozen packages.
[22:35:34] <mathiaz> ScottK2: do you have a list of these packages ?
[22:36:00] <ScottK2> Yes
[22:36:24] <mathiaz> ScottK2: It may worth adding a point in the Packager section of the Roadmap
[22:36:49] <nxvl_work> and also put that list somewhere
[22:36:52] <mathiaz> ScottK2: and list the packages.
[22:36:57] <mathiaz> ScottK2: there.
[22:37:23] <mathiaz> ScottK2: another option could be to file bugs against the relevant packages in LP
[22:37:40] <ScottK2> Adding it.
[22:39:09] <mathiaz> [ACTION] ScottK2 to add a point in the Roadmap section about libdb4.2 transition.
[22:39:27] <mathiaz> So I think we had a long meeting now.
[22:39:37] * nealmcb nods
[22:39:45] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
[22:39:49] <nealmcb> lots of good progress though I think
[22:39:59] <mathiaz> same place, same time, next week ?
[22:40:15] <nxvl_work> +1
[22:40:54] <ScottK2> mathiaz: Action complete
[22:41:22] <nealmcb> I'll have a conflict next week fwiw
[22:41:27] <mathiaz> All right folks ! Thanks for attending and happy alpha 4 testing :)
[22:41:46] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
Meeting ended.

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